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To war or not to war...that is the question

cal val

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I'd like to try a little community experiment here. However, I don't want this experiment to degenerate into a hawk vs. dove discussion. So, Hilary, if you know from past experience that that is what is likely to happen, then please, by all means, feel free to delete this post.

We have an impending war looming ahead of us that is impacting all our lives even now. I threw the coins today and asked if it was going to happen. I got an answer that certainly seemed relevant. But then I got an idea. If the answer was indeed relevant, then anyone else who threw the coins would get the same or very much the same answer.

I'd love to see if that, indeed, is the case. I'm not posting the answer I received from the I Ching until Wednesday evening. That will give most people who read this forum time to check in and read this question.

I invite any who would like to participate in this experiment to throw the coins on Wednesday, February 12, 2003, (or Thursday, February 13, 2003, if you're on the eastern side of the international date line) and ask "Is this war going to happen?" Then post your answers here in this thread. I'm just posting the hexagram numbers and changing lines WITHOUT interpretation myself. I fear interpretations might lead to the hawk vs. dove discussion, and I want this to be solely about the I Ching.

I think interpretations, however, might be interesting after all the results are in. I'd love to hear others' feelings on this before we start the experiment.

Thanks!

Val
 

suzy

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Cool idea! I'm game.

I wonder, though, about the phrasing of the question, and about what we hope to demonstrate. I think most of us would agree that the I Ching isn't a fortune-telling tool, since that would imply both predestination/fixed fate AND a mechanism capable of foretelling same. Without getting into that whole discussion of what exactly the I Ching is or how it does what it does, I think most of us agree that when we ask the Yi about future events, what it reveals are trends, probabilites, the likely outcome of the moment. So, the more appropriate question might be, "Is this war likely to happen?" But then that begs the question -- why ask? We already know it's likely to happen (the newspapers tell us that), just as we also know that, as with all human events, something could occur to avert it or turn the trend of events in a different direction.

Having said that, I'm still game for the experiment.
 

angel

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The question should be:
How can we stop this madness.
War is not a game.
 

binz

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Val, congratulations on being able to put so many words together on the war without mentioning which side youre on! I haven't met anyone who could do that for months (including me).

As for using I Ching for a prediction instead of a direction. It's not something I've done before (does that make me odd)- I normally ask "what should I do about..." How should I approach ..." type questions. But for the sake of experiment I am happy (and interested) to go along with your suggestion.

Binz

(PS this dove will be winging its way to London on Saturday)

(PPS could there be a correlation between the hex's recieved {more yin or more yang?} and whether people are doves or hawks?)
 

anita

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I was wondering when someone would pop the question -- good Val! I already asked the I Ching about it on two different occasions -- whether there will be war. I shall post my answers on Feb 13. Or do you want me to ask again on that day? Hee hee. I know some would say -- how can you ask the same question again?

As far as prediction goes though, I believe strongly that the Yi is capable of predicting the future. It has done so with me.

So see you all on Feb 13.

Best for your Quest

Anita
 

suzy

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Hi, Anita --
I think that the Yi is capable of predicting the future in roughly the same way that meterologists are sometimes capable of predicting the weather. To illustrate with a silly example: If there is an enormous snow storm 1 mile west of my house and it's moving east, then anybody (doesn't have to be a weatherman!) can predict that it's going to snow at my house. For all intents and purposes, that's predicting the future. But that doesn't mean that the future is fixed in stone. It is overwhelmingly likely that it will snow, but there is also an infinitesimal possibility that it won't (a comet could hit the earth, a nuclear holocaust could happen...). And if you'd asked the meterologist yesterday if it was going to snow at my house today, the prediction would have been less certain. How much less certain would depend on the overall weather pattern, the strength of the storm, and the infinite other possible events that could become manifest in the 24 hours to come.

Suzy
 

kts

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Dear Val,
I too had the idea of conducting such an experiment, and asked a few questions, including 'Is war likely?', to which there was an interesting answer. I would have posted at the beginning of last week, had there not already been other long and heated discussions going on on these pages. It seems a pity not to post any answers we have already received, but your experiment of all asking on the same day is an obviously good one. What should we do - save everything until the 12/13th? There will certainly be a lot of reading to do.
Keith
 

kts

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An idea: could Hilary devise a table where we could report our answers - thrown hexagram, moving lines, resultant hexagram - so that we could see straight away how close our answers were? It would beat working our way through acres of text. How about it , Hilary - if we were to report our answers on Thursday/ Friday? Or would there be too much work involved? We would also have to standardise the question(s).
 

suzy

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Standardize the question, and perhaps choose the same time (on Greenwich Mean Time) to throw the bones... Tea time in UK is about lunch time here on the east coast of 'merica, right? Say 5pm in Greenwich is 12noon here, 9am Pacific time...uh, what time is that in Bangalore? I know there are folks on this forum from all over, and obviously it wouldn't do to pick a time that makes sense to NATO member nations (little joke there) but is ridiculous in India or Australia.
 

kts

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Dear Hilary,
Sorry if this is putting work on your shoulders. I think you said you were going to be away sometime soon, and I can't find where you said it.
 

suzy

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Perhaps she has already run screaming from the room!
 

hilary

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No, just been reading the Shijing while you industrious people plan! I'm not 100% sure of the merits of the idea - not because I'm too worried about political arguments, but because I wonder why actually organise to ask the I Ching the same question again and again? Are we saying we won't believe it unless the answers are consistent? On the face of it, such tests seem not unreasonable (if not very well-mannered), it's just that the last time I suggested any kind of test to Yi (with the idea of maybe convincing my husband...) I received 29,1.

Has anyone asked Yi yet what we might expect from this? I'm off to try that now.
 

hilary

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Answer: 49 to 16.

Thought I would post that before trying to interpret it. It looks as though we have an interesting time ahead with this, though...

A question or two to go the rounds three times:

What are we doing this for? (example: to test Yi, to test our own ability to interpret against what really happens, to see how/whether different answers reflect the different people they're given to, actually to find out what's going to happen...)
What will change as a result of the readings?

If by Wed/Thur we are all still keen, then by all means email your answers to me (in the format 49, 9/1, 9/3, 9/5, 16 or something like it) and I'll plonk them in a table: it shouldn't take too long. Not sure if I can do it in Discus code, but if not I'll make a separate page for us to look at.
 

lenardthefast

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Hi all,

I am in agreement with Angel as to the nature of the question. I would humbly suggest something on the order of "What should/could I/we do to help stop this madness?" I believe that, or at least fervently hope, that the members of this forum are all opposed to war.(Especially the 'pre-emptive' and 'self-serving' variety we are speaking about in this case.

That said, I am all for the experiment.

Namaste,
Leonard
 

hitchhiker

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Hi! I posted my message before I discovered this thread! It's on the general discussion page... I asked the Yi to comment on the war and got #3 changing at l. 3 to #63...

zen2.gif
hh
 

gene

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I think I will just observe on this one. Not for or against it. I do however have a teeny tiny bit of reservation.... In the book on the Art of War, Sun Tzu states that the able general should not allow any divination at all by the troops before a battle? Why, two reasons at least I believe. One, can you imagine the confusion that would reign among the troops with everyone getting a different reading? Or even if they all got the same reading, and it spoke of defeat.... How valiantly would the troops fight if they thought it were a losing battle, or even if they thought they would win, would they coast, take it easy, thinking the victory was theirs anyway?

Fundamentalists often quote Bible (Torah) scriptures showing divination as being from the Devil, yet I think the real reason behind it is the same as above. Only the high priests and the highest leaders used divination. If it is because it is from the Devil then we have to throw the story of Joseph and several others out because they divined. Even the disciples cast lots to see which disciple would replace Judas....I am not against this, but I think the answers we get will more reflect our own personality and how the war or lack thereof will affect us as individuals.
 

gene

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Also, I believe that when we do a divination of any kind, we enhance the likelihood of a certain probability... This may not make much sense, it relates once again to quantum physics. An object only becomes real when we observe it, but it does so on the basis of probability. The probability will be this, but not the certainty. Here is another reason why I feel that we need to be careful about asking the same question twice. When we divine, we enact a certain likelihood, in other words an X% chance that something will happen, when we ask again, we are materializing a second wave form into a probability and waves can either enhance or detract from waves that have already been created. This creates confusion and improbabilities in the unified force field that physicists are trying so hard to come up with, and lessens the chances that either prediction will come true. I have seen good readings change to very bad readings on a second cast, and the bad became very true. I really don't think we will be hurting anything by doing this, but the subconscious mind needs to be respected and treated with great dignity. Otherwise, we can unleash forces we wish we hadn't.

Gene
 

suzy

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Hi, Gene--
You are absolutely right about historical strictures against divining. In virtually all cultures, common people were absolutely forbidden to divine about national matters, military outcomes, the death of the king, etc. Divining on such matters was more strictly controlled than CIA intelligence -- "eyes only" classified for the top people -- and for exactly the reasons you state. But I'm wondering, why do you think that should restrict us now? Just curious. Doesn't seem to me that any of the same reasons apply. We're not the soldiers going into battle, nobody (besides us) is going to know the outcome of our divination, and even if they did, the vast majority of folks wouldn't take it seriously.

Please don't feel like I'm challenging you to defend your position in any kind of serious way -- this is just chat. I completely respect your reservations about it.

Suzy
 

suzy

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slipped -- I posted before you put up your second message.
 

gene

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Suzy

I don't think it is going to hurt anything. I just think we need to keep the perspective that the answers will reflect who we are as individuals, rather than reflect the actual outcome of the war. There are too many possibilities when a large number of people read on one subject. Didn't mean to infer that.

Thanks,
Gene
 

lenardthefast

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Hi Gene,

In ancient feudal China the generals always consulted the oracles as to the auspicious signs before upcoming battles. We are members of a society, that idealistictly, should be run by the 'will of the people'(us). So, I see no conflict here with each of us making our own decisions based on the fact that we, each and every one of us, assumes our rightful role as 'general'. We already know from reading history, what the outcome was when left in the hands of the 'ruling class'. Exactly the kind of scary mess we see looming on the horizon.

As far as the quantum part, I believe that the introduction of some positivism into the universal waveform can do naught but good. Just my humble opinion.

Namaste,
Leonard
 

cal val

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Oh do I ever hope your wrong about affecting consequences by the act of foreseeing, Gene. And Suzy I don't think it's about predetermined fate. I think it's about the omniscience of whatever it is we're tapping into...God, Collective Unconscious...the spirit world...whatever. I think it's like the ultimate computer in terms of processing data and can do math calculations we can't even imagine. I think it can do cause and effect calculations with complete accuracy. We've got free will, and we have to make our decisions. It's just so dang smart it knows what decisions we are going to make and is always way ahead of us.

If you are right, Gene, then I was responsible, at least in part, for Robert Kennedy's death since I dreamed it approximately 1/2 hour before it happened. And I'm not willing to accept that responsibility. By the way, for all you conspiracy theorists out there...there was no conspiracy. It was one very angry man acting alone, and he shot RFK because he supported Israel. It was all in the dream. And the shot wasn't fired until about a 1/2 hour after I woke up panicked.

And, Gene, I dreamed about the video monitors on the backs of all the seats on Virgin Atlantic Airways in 1978. Should I be asking Richard Branson for a piece of the pie?

I don't believe in the least we can affect what's going to happen with this war through divination. Only through our conscious efforts can we affect the direction this war is now taking. Get informed...and then speak out! Use your voice. The US government is STILL a government BY the people. So I don't think "What can we do to stop it?" is the appropriate question. We have that answer, which is to go to http://www.moveon.org and find out which of the protests being held all around the world on Saturday, February 15, is nearest you and go there and be counted. And speak out every way you can until then. If you don't want to stop it, then you can find ways to say that as well. If there are war support rallies planned, I'm sure you can find out about them on the net or through local community organizations. Or you can plan your own.

I'd like to leave the question at "Is this war going to happen?"

To answer the questions posed to us by Hilary after she received 49 change to 16, I have this to say. I want to understand more about unity and the I Ching. We all have theories about how the I Ching answers. But that's all they are for me at this point. Theories. That's why I asked for this experiment. I won't know, we won't know, how much a part unity plays in our connection to the source of our answers until we try something like this. Consequently, I like the suggestion that we pick the same time GMT, loosely, to consult. We still may not know after the experiment, but we may also make some startling discoveries.

Ciao for now,

Val
 

suzy

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Hey, Val --
I think we probably are saying the same thing about the I Ching "predicting" the future. If you read my second post comparing the Yi to a weather simulation computer model, you'll see what I mean. You wrote:
"We've got free will, and we have to make our decisions. It's just so dang smart it knows what decisions we are going to make and is always way ahead of us."

I would simply amend that to say, "...decisions we are almost certainly going to make..." It may seem like a minor nit from philosophy class, but I believe it's necessary.

I think the experiment is fascinating. Go look at Hitchhiker's thread if you haven't already. The Yi was certainly spot-on that time.

Suzy
 

cal val

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Hi everyone...

I'm going to put a time out there for our "unity" consultation. 5PM(17:00)GMT on Wednesday, February 12, 2003. That's noon EST, 9AM PST, and Anita, that's around 5:30PM for you...yes?

And then to recap, email your responses to Hilary at hilary@onlineclarity.co.uk in the format 49, 9/1, 9/3, 9/5, 16 so that she can put them in a table and we can see if there are any trends. 49 in this example would be the primary hexagram and the numbers with slashes are the changing lines (9/n or 6/n) and the 16 is the resulting hexagram.

If you can't consult on the appointed hour, just get as close to that time as you can.

Thanks. This should be very interesting.

Ciao for now,

Val
 

heylise

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The old diviners asked several times about the same question. Very often two times for the two sides of the question: there will be harvest? ? there will maybe not be harvest? The ?maybe´ was added so they would not make the gods incline to the bad answer.
So ask not ´will it happen´, but ´will it maybe happen´ (or will it not happen).
Maybe they knew some about quantum physics?

Bangalore is about 5 hours or 5½ hours west of GMT, so 17 GMT is probably around 22 (10 PM) in Bangalore. Not sure if I am right.

I never ask if something will happen, but I am going to join in all the same. Always good to change one´s opinions once in a while.

LiSe
 

cal val

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Hi LiSe...

Yes I realized after I'd gone offline and shut down the computer that I hadn't done the math properly for Anita's time zone. I just added the 5:30 to 0:00 GMT instead of 5:00PM GMT *slaps forehead*

I like the idea of asking two questions like that. I wonder how Hilary would feel about making two tables...or a double table.

Val
 

anita

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Hi Val,

First let me say WOW! You dreamed of JFK's assasination! Also let me thank you here for telling me how to enhane my telepathic skills. I hope to hold my boyfriend's ancient sneakers (thank God they're not smelly!) in my arms and try to connect. I suppose I don't have to tell him to be aware of me at the time since anyway he's always aware of me. Thanks for telling me the time for my consultation -- I know that my boyfriend in Germany is 4 hours behind me -- does that make 5:30 p.m right? Hope so. (Wrote this mail yesterday, so now, reading HeyLise - I know when to ask tomorrow. Thanks HeyLise).

I agree with you totally Val. I don't think that divination in any way can influence the outcome of anything. And let me say again here that (I think in Legge's translation) I have come acroos a passage that says ancient diviners cast each question 3 times at one sitting. Perhaps Gene's speaking of casting a second time after some time had passed after the first divination -- and by then things could have changed in the situation because the querent may have ignored some advice.

I think it's a great way to experiment with the Yi. I don't see this as a test of the Yi's capabilities. I see it only as a way to learn more about the Yi and how it works. After all, if the war is to happen, it'll happen no matter who or where you are and it is a question which certainly needs to be asked.

Best for your Quest

Anita
 

hilary

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Hm, yes, we do need a single question for this. Please ask something along the lines of:

'Please show me a picture of what will happen'

-with the question of war or not firmly in mind, of course.

(Though if by the time you read this you've already asked 'Will it happen?', not to worry. In practice you'd probably approach the answer to either question in the same way.)

About ancient diviners, by the way... The ones who asked 'will it maybe happen?'/'will it maybe not happen?' were surely using the bone or tortoise oracle? And it seems that that was a yes/no oracle: in Joseph Yu's 'Complete Idiot's Guide to the I Ching' he gives rules for interpreting whether the answer was a 'yes' or 'no' according to the angle of the crack in the bone. At all events, you can't imagine using a single crack in a bone to describe a complex series of events and alternatives, for instance.

When it comes to asking advice, we can very usefully use the old pattern: 'what if I do this?', 'what if I do that?' But for prediction with the Yi, I don't quite see how asking both 'will it?' and 'won't it?' would work. So - one table of answers!

I stand ready to be corrected, but I just wonder whether the ancient diviners asking 3 times were using the bone oracle, and looking for some consistent pattern or majority verdict between the cracks, or using the Yi? I doubt that the practices that work for one would work for the other.

I think that we are working very nicely through those lines of 49 here. For me, this experiment will certainly be quite different to anything that I've done before, and I have no idea where it will lead.
 

hilary

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One final request - again, just if you read this in time. As well as sending me your question and answer, could you also say how likely (from your answer, of course) you think war is? Just inevitable/very likely/quite likely/impossible, something I can quickly plonk in another column of the table.

I think this could be important. Different people have different ideas about the meaning of each hexagram. Does Yi take this into account in the way it answers each of us? It's theoretically possible that we might all get quite different hexagrams but hear the same answer.

By the way, I won't put any names in the table. You can identify a given answer as yours afterwards if you like, but that isn't necessary.
 

binz

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Do you also want to know method? flash, coins, stalks etc
Or will this just complicate things?
 

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