...life can be translucent

Menu

Tracking Down the Senior Minister

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
From the universal IC focus, since 16 maps to line position 4 and so to the position of the senior minister, so we can flesh-out the traits of that minister for each hexagram by XOR-ing the hexagram with 16.

Thus the basic traits of the senior minister in 30 are described by analogy to 22.

Implicit in this is that the exaggerated traits would be described by analogy to 47 (22s "opposite").

To work with the line positions we XOR hexagrams with:

23 - sage, line 6
08 - ruler, line 5
16 - senior minister, line 4
15 - local lord, line 3
07 - supervisor, line 2
24 - worker, line 1

We can change the labels to reflect hierarchy and so use the same methodology to extract the single line position 'natures' within each hexagram. From there we move on to more than one line. E.g. the characteristics of line position 5 and 2 give us hex 08 + hex 07 = hex 29 and so showing the main focus of this pair in containment/control. THEN XOR that with all of the others to get the LOCAL forms of containment/control etc etc etc

This focus on containment/control favours the notion of PROTECTION. Exaggerate that, turn it into EXPLOITATION and we move to the opposite structure, 30, where the focus is on guidance/direction-setting, another property of the minister ;-)

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
oops - the last paragraph should refer to the king/supervisor position not the minister! ;-)

In the ruler position, line 5 maps to 8 and reflects passive attraction, coming to the court etc XOR this with any hexagram to get the basic attributes of the ruler in that hexagram. Exaggerate the state gives us hex 14; XOR THAT with each hexagram gives the 'dynamic' nature of the ruler (14 is proactive, actively directing things etc)

Chris.
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
17,083
Reaction score
2,329
Hi Chris
happy.gif


I understand and appreciate the basic idea of deriving meaning from the structural relationships of one hexagram to another. Within this, naturally, you have to start from somewhere: you choose a 'seed' for your process of meaning-generation.

If you start from line theory, then the 16-ness of things is their 'senior minister'-ness. If you start from the good old Eranos version of the text, 16 has to do with 'provision', foresight, etc. (I think they're a bit wide of the mark there.)

No rules, of course, about where you start from. There never have been - think of Wen Wang Gua, guaranteed text-free I Ching. Or Peter, starting in the 'sleep and dreams' thread from trigram relations.

However, if you do want to 'seed' your unfolding of ideas with the text, then I think it makes sense to start with - well, the text, as near as you can get. In other words, if you want 'foresight' or 'providing for' in the mix, then you can't logically keep the elephants out.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
Hilary,

IMHO, based on your prose to date, you appear to be missing the main point about what is BEHIND the derivation of the IC, the core qualities sourced in all of us as a species, not limited to ancient, 10th century BC China (as a species, we have moved on from that position).

We are deriving meaning from whence it came - neurological/cognitive dynamics that work BEHIND what is used to express them - symbolisms/metaphors such as the traditional IC.

These dynamics are, in general, FIXED. We all have a sense of 'wholeness' etc, the differences are in what we associate that sense with.

Your perspective appears to be to start with EXPRESSION and divination etc etc and for you that may be fine. MY perspective is to look at what is being expressed, what is trying to be said by all of the symbols, analogies, metaphors we create as a species.

As you must we aware, from IDM the IC is used as an example of a specialisation of what our brains do in general in deriving meaning (as covered in the IDM material). In that use we take the 'Wilhelm' or 'Eranos' material way beyond their 'traditional' positions, bring out aspects not covered in these texts, aspects that allow a FAR FAR richer understanding of what we are dealing with in general.

The traditional IC material, obviously material that you have spent a lot of time with, is a PART of what we are dealing with, it is LOCAL stuff and that is fine for what you seem to use the IC for; but there is a LOT more under the hood that your traditionalist perspective has missed and/or under estimated, treated in a vague, waving-of-hands manner.

With the work out of neurosciences etc we are now in a position to identify the full spectrum, the regular network, that seeds the local, traditional, small-world network that is the 'traditional' IC. In being able to do that we bring the IC forward thousands of years and 'upgrade' it to something useful way beyond the 'traditional' perspective - and more so, we show how through it we can learn about ourselves etc - IOW we move way beyond 'divination' etc., and so way beyond your sharing of readings etc. - they may be fun/interesting/sincere but they miss a lot of what is going on at the level of the 'big picture' - as such they are focused on the local, everyday dynamics of those who use the IC for aid in understanding local conditions - but there is a lot more there as well, WAY beyond Eranos or Wilhelm etc etc in that we move into the realm of our speciesness, our human nature as a whole.

All of that said, there is no demand for you are Peter or other 'traditionalists' to move to the 'big picture' level, but I think it would be of benefit to start considerating that level as things develop... especially in your role as some sort of interpreter/teacher/whatever... skills upgrade is necessary these days ;-)

I have been doing this for a long long long time and so have transcended the limitations of the traditional text - my website interpretations, if you had bothered to review but obviously have not, is covered with references to Eranos etc etc IOW I have read ALL of these line texts, be they from Eranos or Wilhelm or from the umpteen other sources I have. In that reading I have moved to the level BENEATH those comments - to the core patterns of meaning we use in general but patterns unknown to us directly other than vague feelings we try to put into words - NOW, through neurosciences etc we are getting more precise in our understandings.

I have maintained pages of interpretations that maintain the link to 'traditional' perspectives but I have also added material that moves us forward and into in-depth understandings of psyche etc. Now if you or Peter or any other 'traditionalists' dont like that then dont read it. When you see some comments of mine on something just skip over them, your world will be 'protected' but, IMHO, decaying into inferior qualitative states - IOW if you want to stick to horse and buggy and the local shops, thats fine - but in the context of understanding ourselves as a species and moving beyond our current 'mess' - 'new' technology serves us well; IOW your immersion in 'traditionalist' IC divination etc etc and so on surface structures, on differences in EXPRESSIONS, will, IMHO in the long run, do you and other traditionalists a diservice.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that maintaining the traditionalist perspective without upgrades is doing the IC a diservice.

The traditional line texts are all attempts to describe FEELINGS that are sourced, determined, by the dynamics of the neurology. By fleshing-out those dynamics so we can do better than the originators of the traditional material by recruiting what we know now about 'in here' in our analysis of the IC.

From IDM I know now, in general, what the EXPRESSIONS are trying to express and that takes us into the realm of our species as a whole, not 10th century BC China.

The ICPlus material reveals the 'pure', universal, IC patterns that are vague due to their universality - BUT they are also all linked together such that we find in the universal, 'pure
' IC what we find in 'pure' Mathematics - 1 + 1 = 2. IOW 16 XOR <any> will give you the 16-ness of that hexagram where that 16-ness is expressed in the behaviour of line position 4; associated with, in the traditional material, the senior minister. LOCAL interpretations can skew this expression but the universal elements hold.

Until you start to 'get' what is going on here you will continue to miss the point re what we are dealing with - and thats fine, your choice - if you prefer to meander around what a line 'means' etc without recruiting the IC itself to help you, that is your choice, but in the long run I think you will need to move into the 21st century AD perspective since it is far superior in understanding the STRUCTURE of what is being delt with - the regular network that seeds the small worlds.

Futhermore, there are only 6 line comments where in fact we need 64 per hexagram, 4096 per dodecagram etc etc - all material we can all get involved in to move the IC 'forward' - after all, change is inevitable, you can fight it, or flow with it but ultimately, it all 'moves' BUT in that movement has STRUCTURE and understanding that structure is what can aid us in all movements.

As to 'starting with line theory' - no way. I start with recursing, blending, bonding, bounding, binding, AND-ing, and XOR-ing and all of this 'stuff' comes out of that. IOW the mapping of 16 to line position 4 comes out of the regular network realm. LOCAL 'reflections' will elicit that feeling that gets labelled as 'senior minister position' etc - the hierarchy is part of our being as a species, the labels stem from our being as a conscious species where we try to be more precise by being increasingly 'aspectual' in our interpretations!

The full spectrum in fact of line position 4 is from 16 to 09 - a sequence of 64 hexagrams covering the energy levels in basic line 4 to extreme line 4 etc etc!

Using the XOR we can identify the 'skeletal' form of 16 ,and so get a better idea of its roots and what it means - all derived from the interconnections of the IC itself, not from the speculations of 10th century BC China (or 21st century AD speculations!). These connections are GENERAL and so open to LOCAL skewing, but these connections are also FIXED at the universal level - 21 describes the skeletal form of 16 as 16 does the skeletal form of 21, period. No questions about it - as in maths, 1 + 1 = 2. Simple. ;-)

Does that 'stress' people? Sure since it moves us into issues of free will etc but the point is that free will is LOCAL such that the EXPRESSION of the universal can take on local colouring and appear 'different' to its expression elsewhere - and thats fine, thats fun in revealing the 'many' expressions of the 'one' ;-)

The 'seed' for all meaning is in the neurology. THAT is where the basics are and that is what we uncover in the universal IC material - now if Peter or you or LiSe etc dont like that (I noticed your 'rant' re moving away from traditional, for you strongly visual, symbolisms etc - but then that just reflects someone missing the point about the universals that are free of any sense.

Chris.
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
17,083
Reaction score
2,329
Chris, I was really just making a very simple point, not engaging with (let alone challenging) the whole of what you do at all. *Part* of what feeds into your work is the old Chinese text. Evidently not the only thing or even the most important, but part.

Of course the relationship between one set of 6 lines and another is immutable. However, for this to go anywhere, we need some idea of what at least one of those sets of lines means. '16 XOR 27 is 21' is always true; '21 describes the skeletal form of 16' is only true if 27 has something to do with 'skeletal form'.

I am not saying you 'have to' accept the ideas current in 1,000BC. I'm not even insinuating that you rely on these ideas, though it does appear that you draw on them. (Why else would |::|:| have anything to do with biting? Why would any of your interpretations bear any resemblance to the 1000BC Chinese version?)

All I was saying was that where you do draw on the ideas present in the original Chinese text, as for instance when you associate 21 with 'biting' or 16 with 'foresight', it's only sensible to use the best and most complete representation of that text you can find. And LiSe's work could be an excellent resource for you in that - much better than Eranos for the original meaning of the hexagram names, for instance.

Summary: not saying you 'should' respect or defer to the ancient Chinese understanding. Am saying that it's logical, when using ideas arising from that understanding, to get as clear as you can on what it was.
 

peter

visitor
Joined
Apr 12, 1970
Messages
168
Reaction score
0
Chris,

so many words instead of simply some proofings for conservative traditionalists: explain the tradition fully with your approach. And show where the tradition lacks of depth, and also - new horizons in this or that direction.

I bear in mind that those writings which we know for now are just a little piece of Chinese knowledge. Though saved writings are often "the dry remaining" of many "trials and errors". And instead of beginning from "tabula rasa" I prefer to know how these things were used during the uninterrupting Chinese history. I don't close myself within the tradition only, but I don't refuse it while it is the base.

"Wen Wang Ke" (Lessons of King Wen) (or "Huo Zhu Lin" - "Grove of Fire Pearls", or "Wen Wang Ba Gua" - "Eight Trigrams of King Wen"), although doesn't use text, has a deep tradition too, and you cannot simply throw away what is already accumulated: advances, retreats, going into the grave, wavering, 6 animals, good and bad spirits etc. Of course, nobody holds you from inventing a new system, say binding 9 flying stars to trigrams and hexagrams, but if you'll go against basics of Chinese "natural philosophy", nobody will follow you. There are some limits which if you're stepping over, you fall out from what is known to people as "I Ching".

With best regards.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
Hilary,

Please comment on:

(1) http://members.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x100001.html (and note my use of the Eranos naming as part of things)

(2) the material covering the same hexagram from the older pages - just click on the hexagram in the above link - the hexagram acts as a toggle to go from one page to the other.

The overal form of 27 is of (a) a NEW state (thunder base) and (b) a focus on DISCERNMENT operating in that new state (mountain in TOP position where the blocking/stopping is made proactive, we intentionally stop/block etc).

The general focus, from the ICPlus perspective and its focus on gerunds in the IC, is on 'hungering' - a need to be filled and the traditional text has the warning, derived from discernment, about what you should take in.

Given that nature of 27, XOR it with 01 to give 28. QUALITATIVELY we have here, as we practice what the brain does to extract details, XOR-ing, a description of the 27-ness of 01, its raw form being described by analogy to 28 - too much yang.

MANY people have used this XORing methodology and confirm that, for them too, it 'works', indicating that through IDM we have discovered a property not of the IC but of the methodology used to derive the IC - recursion. (the same process works for the MBTI etc - see the page:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html )

EVERY page of my interpretations of the IC contain an eranos-sourced set of associations to the TRADITIONAL ideogram, and the more generic IDM characteristics FIT those associations.

WE can map the qualities of basic trigrams to the IDM qualities derived from recursion of differentiating/integrating and so show the isomorphism at work - same qualities, different labels.

In the IDM analysis of brain function research we find that the extraction of DETAILS from a WHOLE is through XOR-ing and when we apply that method to hexagrams etc we get the spectrum of that hexagram. In getting the 27-ness through that method so ALL OTHER HEXAGRAMS apply to give us the DETAILS of a hexagram's nature clearly defined by the IC itself, not by our meanderings, our ad-hoc methods used over the millenia.

Peter focuses on trying to understand how the Chinese came up with the IC - my work shows how our SPECIES can come up with it; LOCAL conditions then brought-out the 'traditional' IC but it is not something unique to the Chinese, just their CHOICE of representation turned out to be the 'best fit'.

Now, since I am working from the UNIVERSAL position, the focus is on what ALL TEXTS have in common for a line or hexagram (and so an analysis of a LOT of interpretations etc). There is no one 'complete' text as such since they are all 'small world' networks where LOCAL contexts forms perspectives, grounds the universals.

FROM that analysis of PARTICULARS comes the emerging of the GENERAL that 'maps' to the patterns derived from the GENERAL recursion of 'differentiating/integrating' - and so the IDM template.

All the words are representations, metaphors for FEELINGS where it is the FEELINGS that are the meaning and it is the FEELINGS that tie the IC back to pre-spoken/written word, IOW tie the qualities of the IC into our neurology (and into differentiating/integrating in general)

As for LiSe etc, I assure you I have been through all of LiSe's work and others in my analysis of what is BEHIND the words, BEHIND the particulars. Each give their PARTICULAR, LOCAL, perspectives, and these in turn, when summed, bring out the underlying seeding of meaning sourced in the neurology. (and so the title the "Language of the Vague")

SO - 27 DOES reflect 'skeletal' forms, it DOES reflect a superstructure, an infrastructure, in need of 'filling', of 'outfitting' - and with it comes the warning about using quality control in that process.

This is CLEARLY demonstrated when you go through and XOR 27 with all other hexagrams in that the resulting hexagram DOES inevitably well describe the skeletal form of a hexagram.

Now, the LOCAL interpretations of 27 will differ due to the particulars of the local, but the underlying universal form will shine through (something covered in the ancient perspectives a la 'fu hsi' being 'beneath' king wen - what they were trying to say was the underlying binary, structural perspectives operating beneath the surface expressions)

We also note that when we go deeper, so 27 becomes a focus on sharing TIME (binding) in which is operating a focus on sharing SPACE with another/others (bonding). The time element is in the beginning/ending dynamic that acts to encapsulate 'empty' space in which we will share space - and so the need for quality control on what goes in that space. The VISUAL representation is coincidental with the line representation of an active 1 and 6 and passive others, but it does re-inforce the basic nature of hungering and so a need to be filled.

SO - for EACH hexagram we can derive their spectrum, giving us insight into the nature of a hexagram described by all other hexagrams - the IC describes itself IN GENERAL, as UNIVERSALS, and LOCAL context then comes up with the 'traditional' perspectives.

Given all of this recent understanding, derived from applying IDM to the IC, so we get a far more precise perspective on the IC in general, and in doing so extend its use considerably in understanding ourselves and our species - but it does also take us away from the more 'traditional' divination perspectives which for some may be an 'issue' but not for others.

The IDM template is derived independent of the IC, as an exercise in what do you get when recursing differentiating/integrating - which is what the brain does. The QUALITIES derived form into a sequence of qualities that are found to be isomorphic to those qualities associated with the IC binary sequence and as such show the derivation of the IC from basic brain functions (universals) combined with local conditions (choice of representation etc) - and so the IC is in us, but then so are the properties and methods of recursion etc 'in' the IC, and that includes dealing with assymetric dichotomies giving is XOR/AND dynamics and so part/whole interactions - leading to the 'discovery' of the XOR-ing process covered at my websites. This is REALLY revolutionary stuff, not just for the IC, but for understanding information processing in general (see my icstruct.html page re the "Book of Structures" perspectives)

Chris.
 

hilary

Administrator
Joined
Apr 8, 1970
Messages
17,083
Reaction score
2,329
Yes, I have looked - at the first page, at least, yesterday. (Can't get the page to load today.) I appreciate you sending me straight to the hexagram-specific stuff.

I suppose when you say 'hexagram 16 is about foresight' you are drawing on your work as a whole. It wouldn't be true if you were only looking at the text - well, at least it wouldn't be the predominant theme. When I find 16 as a yang change pattern (ie when I have a reading with just line 4 changing - same thing as XOR, structurally-speaking), I wouldn't say the active principle in this change was foresight. More enthusiasm, inspiration, volatility, and those big images.

Looking through your list of XORs, which also works as a list of what you've concluded is the essence of each hexagram, there were some that would fit with a perspective derived from the text, some not. (One I can remember: 46 is indeed the opposite of 25, but it's a whole lot more than 'getting more entangled', for all that!) 'Skeletal', for 27, may be more literal than you know: the name of it means not 'hungering' but literally 'jaws'. The framework that makes nourishment possible.

And so on... anyway, interesting to see where you and Yi (old Chinese one) do and don't intersect.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
The focus in ICPlus is on universals and so the realm of the general, the 'vague' out of which LOCAL context then derives 'details'. The GENERAL vibe of 46 is about devotion-to-another/absolute-trust-in-another(s), working in a context of cultivation (wind bottom). Even more generically we have contractive blending (A focus on integrating) in a context of contractive binding - sharing TIME with another/others.

When we review the opposite we have expansive blending (devotion to self) operating in a context of sharing time in the form of self-enlightenment. The act covered in the traditional texts covers the rising to one's feet to say what one feels MUST be said, regardless of, or not even aware of, consequences (or 'damn the consequences). SOCIALLY the latter reflects, IN GENERAL, disentanglment, and the former, 46, increased entanglement. FROM there can come a LOT of DETAILS at the local levels but that is not the concern of universals, they act to SEED and the local then blossoms but that blossoming is customised by LOCAL conditions/traditions/paradigms etc (and so can at times hide the universal elements)

The skeletal form of 46 is:

011000 46
100001 27
------
111001 09.

This sets a generic focus on becoming noticed by making small gains upon which to stand and be seen; that vague sense is then made more crisp as we refine things to give us 46 in its fullest form.

Just as 46 has its skeletal form described by 09, so 09 has ITS skeletal form described by 46 where we have the basic essence of 'pushing upwards', getting more involved, making small gains etc etc etc. -- all 'seedings' of what turns into 09.

There is scope here to write chapters just about this dynamic, or more so chapters on each hexagram detailing rather than summarising the hexagram's spectrum. IOW LOTS of prose giving personal perspectives on these qualities, BUT across all of the prose, despite how 'off the wall' it may get, will be found the core universal meanings and it is THEY that allow us to share meanings of a hexagram, the words elicit the invarient qualities we all share as species-members.

From this universals level comes particular prose as each person will come up with their unique perspective - DERIVED from the 'seed' of the universal.

The benefit of understanding the universals is in precision in understanding the IC overall, and allowing for richer perspectives of hexagrams etc. and from there into understanding ourselves in that the ICPlus material is 'isomorphic' to the qualities derived from what our brains do, recurse differentiating/integrating.

AS such we start to see the ORGANIC nature of the IC; its full spectrum, its regular network nature - and from that we can see how our minds work since the IC reflects mental states.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
BTW note that the skeletal form, the seed, the soul, in 25 is represented by hex 45. Note the focus here on a congregation and so a SOCIAL dynamic, out of which, in 25, we suddenly stand up to 'say our piece' (and that can include the realm of 'speaking in tongues' etc etc and so an evenagelical association if we focus on a religious collective)

IOW the skeletal form is like playing charades, vague clues that then get refined as the seed blossoms.

Each hexagram expresses all of the others besides itself where these others contribute, but vaguely, to the expression of the hexagram.

That said, each hexagram covers a spectrum of energy levels itself. Thus hex 23 in its under-exaggerated form is simply about issues of 'housekeeping'. In its over-exaggerated form it is about the high priest/priestess asserting the PARTICULAR, 'true' faith, going through and clearing away the 'chaff' to bring out the wheat.

LOTS of material in the ICPlus areas of working with universals, and in doing so bringing the IC into the 21st century AD.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
ho hum ... what rubbish at times! ... VERY easy to 'see' one in the other.... sorry but

011000 - 46
100001 - 27
-------
111001 - 26. 46 has 26 as skeletal form!

SO this reads as 46 getting increasingly entangled etc is sourced in 26 focus on holding firm to 'traditional' perspectives, getting increasingly tied to those perspective as the particular form of, source of, balancing/harmonising (26 is conditional and pairs with 11).

Implicit in this is 46 is the skeletal form of 26 - the act of 'holding firm' is an act of increased entanglement.

For 09 as skeletal form we have:

011010 48
100001 27
----------
111011 09

Here the skeletal form of 48 is 09. The 'seed' being issues of making gains that get into the focus on setting down foundations from which to develop. (in 09 we use the small gains to stand upon)

Implicit here is 48 is the skeletal form of 09 - the vague sense of 'foundation setting' from which we draw nourishment as we develop.

Chris.
 

yly2pg1

visitor
Joined
Dec 29, 1972
Messages
830
Reaction score
3
Do you include a "close loop feedback system" in XOR/AND dynsmics?
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
XOR requires two neurons with one feeding its output into an input of the other. If we only had one neuron it would 'short circuit'.

The notions of positive (push away/avoid) feedback and negative (get increasingly closer to) feedback map to differentiating/integrating. Note how avoidance behaviour can be turned on its head to reflect trying to stick out - the reactive becomes proactive.

A good text:

Carver, C.S. & Scheier, M.F., (1998) "On the Self-Regulation of Behavior" Cambridge University Press

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

visitor
Joined
Mar 16, 1970
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
1
"one XOR gate feeding its output BACK into an input of the other (first one)" - basic memory systems require this sort of link.
 

cal val

visitor
Joined
Apr 30, 1971
Messages
1,507
Reaction score
13
Hi Hilary...

So sorry to interrupt this thread with my silly little question. But more and more, my own feeling about hex 16 is that the Yi is talking to me about my own intuition or, as you say, foresight... kind of forward-thinking with the help of my connectedness. As I'm perceiving it, connectedness seems to be very much a part of this kind of foresight... as opposed to rational analysis.

Would you please direct me to any threads or other places here on your forum or wherever I might explore this particular aspect of 16 further from yours and others' perspectives... experiences.

Thanks.

Love,

Val
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top