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Translating #23 - bed or riverbed

E

ewald

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In most translations there's a bed mentioned in hexagram 23 lines 1, 2 and 4, which is deprived of it's legs, edge or skin. This doesn't make sense to me, as I find it hard to imagine what's actually happening, and it doesn't quite seem to fit with the Chinese.

I now think the bed is actually something like a riverbed, from a ditch around a fortress/palace. Rutt mentions fortresses with ditches around them. What's stripped away is the bottom of the ditch, to make it deeper.

The Chinese Etymology page mentions "the ground under a body of water" for Chuang2. And in the Japanese section of the Unicode data for Chuang2, "riverbed" is mentioned (with another character preceding it).
In Dutch as well we have a variation of the word "bed" that means the bottom of a river.

So this makes sense (at least to me ;-).

Then line 5 makes sense as well: the ditch has been deepened and is filled with water and fish. The ditch is a barrier and only people who are favored have no disadvantage of it, as they are let through (over the bridge) to the palace/fortress. (I'm turning the usual 3 lines into 2, and position a comma between Gong and Ren.)

The deepening is done:
23.1 - Zu2 - adequately, sufficiently
23.2 - Bian4 - thoroughly
23.4 - Fu1- superficially


Any thoughts about this? Brad?


Ewald
 
H

hmesker

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Hi Ewald,

Indeed does 'chuang' have the meaning of 'the ground under a body of water', but only in combination with 'he', 'river'. Never is 'chuang' on its own used with this meaning (at least not according to my dictionaries). In all the old texts 'chuang' is used in the meaning of 'a bed to lie or sit on'; this goes even more for the 'old form', which is used in the Yi (see for instance the Shijing, Liji, Zuozhuan, Xunzi). It is also used in the meaning of 'railing around a well', which comes close to your assumption of 'river bed', but this meaning is used only from the Han dynasty onwards.

Harmen.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Ewald-
I'm very happy with chuang, bed, as bed.
It's the place where you go to sleep,
i.e. your comfort zone, but also the
psychological place where we can get
way too complacent or smug.
 
E

ewald

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Thanks Harmen and Brad.

But how did this bed get stripped of it's legs, edge or skin? I've never seen that happen to any beds I've seen or read about.

Ewald
 

bradford_h

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Ewald-
I'm sending you my new translation / commentary for 23 privately. I hope it explains some of the symbolism.
 

bradford_h

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Ewald-
No can do yet. Neither your website's reply box nor Clarity's will let me attach an html file.
If you Email me privately at bradford@hermetica.info I'll send it by reply mail.
 
H

hmesker

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Hi Ewald,

When you are not satisfied with a certain meaning a character is given you should not focus on that character only, but also at the other characters which are used. You seem to interpret 'po' only as 'to peel', but it can also mean 'break, smash', as in the Zhuozhuan: "Your Majesty ordered me to break a baton of jade..." (Legge, p. 641), or 'break down layer after layer'. If you think of the 'kang', the brick bed warmed by fire underneath which is still used in China, then 'break' or 'smash' doesn't seem so odd. In other words, you should also try to find out what a bed looked like in the days the Yi was written. Maybe it wasn't the kind of bed we are used to these days, but something different, and something that can be 'peeled' or broken.

Best,

Harmen.
 

lightofdarkness

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23 relates to taking preference over one belief to others; as such the bed metaphor reflects the stripping of what one rests upon - one's beliefs. The stripping reflects the removing of the chaff from the wheat - to get down to the fundamentals of that faith - as a high priest/priestess does in asserting their particular faith - or as a housekeeper does in ensure things are 'neat and tidy' ;-)

TO use the gardening metaphor, this is all pruning as compared to its opposite, 43, that is all seeding.

The skeletal form of 23 is 24 - reflecting the 'drive' to return to 'something' - here being the basics, core 'truth'.

23 shares space with 02 re devotion; 02 is unconditional, 23 conditional.

Chris.
 
C

candid

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The bed metaphor can reflect more than ones belief. It can also reflect ones mood or mental/emotional framework, or any condition at any given time. Here in the US, homes in LA are collapsing because the heavy rains wash away the foundations. I believe that here, bed and foundation are one and the same.
 

lightofdarkness

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;-) the duality in interpretation, the cooperative of housekeeping one's faith as compared to the competitive of fighting nature as it tries to sweep away the last bastion of structure! ;-)

Chris.
 
E

ewald

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Harmen - It was actually what I read about the kind of bed they had back then that made me start to doubt the usual translation of Chuang2. Muller mentions for Chuang2 (o.a.):
# A raised floor.
# A raised bed (in ancient East Asia, used for the ill).
# A stage.

To me that sounds like not much more than a raised portion of the floor for a bed. Not something with legs (line 1), and not something particularly vulnarable.

In my view on the translation of Bo1 as above, I'm taking it as meaning 'to peel' or 'strip away'. But I'm quite aware of other translations, and had it before as 'to damage' and 'worn out' (similar to Brad's 'decomposing').

Another reason why I doubted the usual translation, is that Bo1 is before Chuang2, not after it, in the Chinese. That to me sounds like an action taken ('actively damaging the bed') instead of a condition ('the bed is damaged'). That doesn't make sense to me.


Ewald
 
H

hmesker

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

To me that sounds like not much more than a raised portion of the floor for a bed. Not something with legs (line 1), and not something particularly vulnarable.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I think that depends on material & construction, of which, I must add, know little or nothing. But 'zu', normally translated as 'foot' can also mean 'base'. That is still appropriate for a bed, whether raised or not. I am starting some speculations now, but suppose if the bed or its base is made of vulnerable material like bamboo or something, and you take 'bo' as meaning 'erosion, slow decay' (because of neglect?; Hanyu Da Zidian p. 346, probably Brad's 'decomposing'), then it doesn't sound so odd.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Another reason why I doubted the usual translation, is that Bo1 is before Chuang2, not after it, in the Chinese. That to me sounds like an action taken ('actively damaging the bed') instead of a condition ('the bed is damaged'). That doesn't make sense to me.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
That's the problem with archaic Chinese: both possibilities are plausible ?nd possible. As long as there is a subject missing ( a 'he', 'I' or 'it' who does somthing to the bed) it remains a guess to what is really meant. For now I personally take line 1 as a picture of a bed which has not been taken care of and is breaking down at the base because of neglect. But don't complain if I suddenly change my view ;-). Yours is equally right.

Best,

Harmen.
 

RindaR

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You can see a bed like this in a movie made from one of Pearl Buck's novels... can't remember the name, sorry... mebbe "The Good Earth" ?

Rinda
 

jte

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"But how did this bed get stripped of it's legs, edge or skin? I've never seen that happen to any beds I've seen or read about."

The right combination of circumstances, or possibly deliberate action. Remember, you don't need to take the metaphors too literally here. (Although, if you every *really* figure out the differences between the three, legs, edge, skin, do post! ;-) ).

Brad, I'll have to remember that comment about the psychological comfort zone/complacency - hadn't realized that but it fits well with a recent reading (and subsequent experience) I had...

- Jeff
 

lightofdarkness

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Line 1
"Traditions are like a bed, they are something a culture rests on. The first step is to strip the bed starting with it's base. those who ignore this perish."

Line 2
"To avoid any conflict, agreement is made on those parts to be removed."

Line 3
"An individual feels that the situation is wrong. He withdraws without fault."

Line 4
"The tie between the individual and the tradition is broken, it's heart revealed." - reducing the place of rest (our beliefs, the 'light') to its essentials by the use of flesh and as such the coverings rather than focusing on the structure which the coverings enclose, i.e. the bones, is doomed to failure.

Line 5
"Despite the changes, the ruler still retains some of the past within his home."

Line 6
"Some things are allowed to remain for they will redevelop in the future. The superior go on their way. The inferior suffer as always."
 

lightofdarkness

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To cover the rest of 23 from a line *positions* perspective - where XOR is used to derive the X-ness of 23 (this is GENERAL and so 'vague' - and derived from a computer program that does the matching (XOR and rotations etc) - thus the associations are vague but still close to the mark - and so aid in fleshing-out the details of 23, its 'genetic' nature. I am still thinking about alternative prose, but for the moment this will do. Note that this is sorted to reflect recursion 'up' 23. Also note that when you put a lot of energy into something such that it starts to exceed its bounds, it can 'flip' into its opposite; reflecting the WHOLE is made-up of A AND Not-A):

The focus here is described by hexagram : 23

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams' potential form? :: Through the spiritual path, the preferred 'faith' promoted. [23]
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: Through hungering (focus on filling skeletal form) [27]
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: Through socialisation. [4]
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: Through concentrating, distilling. [41]
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: Through discernment/blockage. [52]
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: Through facading. [22]
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: Through correcting corruption. [18]
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: Through holding firm. [26]
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: Through progress, bringing something into the light.[35]
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: Through problem solving. [21]
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: Through remaining open. [64]
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: Through mirroring, opposing. [38]
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: Through conditional loyalty. [56]
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: Through guidance/ideology. [30]
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: Through transforming. [50]
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: Through directing. [14]
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: Through passive motivation. (20 admiration, set an example, be an example)
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: Through augmenting. [42]
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: Through dispelling illusions. [59]
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram impose standards/limits? :: Through yielding. [61]
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: Through gradual development. (53 maturing)
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: Through rigid structuring (tension release). [37]
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: Through cultivating, become influencial. [57]
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: Through making small gains. [09]
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: Through neutralising (attacks of others). [12]
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: Through saying one's piece. (25 - ignore consequences)
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: Through compromise. [06]
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: Through treading [a path], conduct. [10]
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: Through competitive enticement, draw-in. [33]
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: Through likemindedness. [13]
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: Through persusion/seduction. [44]
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: Through singlemindedness. [01]
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: Through unconditional devotion.[02]
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: Through return to the 'true' path. [24]
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: Through establishing uniformity. [7]
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: Through approaching/deferring. [19]
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: Through modesty, evening things out. [15]
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: Through being uncompromising. [36]
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: Through becoming more entangled. [46]
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: Through balancing, harmonising. [11]
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: Through enthusiastic foresight. [16]
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: Through enlightening, the sudden, shock. [51]
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: Through relaxed structuring. [40]
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: Through initial energy release, immaturity. [54]
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: Through unconditional loyalty. [62]
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: Through diversity. [55]
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: Through commitment. [32]
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: Through invigorating. [34]
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: Through passive attraction. [08]
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: Through sprouting, (difficult) birth [03]
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: Through containment/control. [29]
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: Through standardising. [60]
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: Through going against the flow. [39]
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: Through closure, 'correct' sequence [63]
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: Through foundation setting. [48]
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: Through waiting (calculated). [05]
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: Through celebration of faith. [45]
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: Through following, finding a belief. [17]
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: Through enforced enclosure. [47]
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: Through self-reflecting, intense expression. [58]
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: Through cooperative enticement, wooing. [31]
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: Through revelation, revolution [49]
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: Through exceeding. [28 - do more than is required]
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: Through seeding (spread the word). [43]
 
E

ewald

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When you take Bo to mean "decomposing" or "worn out" the hexagram is getting a bit close in meaning to #18 (which I have translated as "Decay").

Ewald
 

lightofdarkness

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> When you take Bo to mean "decomposing" or "worn out" the hexagram is
> getting a bit close in meaning to #18 (which I have translated as
> "Decay").
>

the BINARY sequence orders things 'properly' - look at column 2:

02 23 08 20 16 35 45 12
15 52 39 53 62 56 31 33
07 04 29 59 40 64 47 06
48 18 48 57 32 50 28 44
24 27 03 42 51 21 17 25
36 22 63 37 55 30 49 13
19 41 60 61 54 38 58 10
11 26 05 09 34 14 43 01

The HOUSEKEEPING issues manifest in 23 (column 2, row 1) are reflected along the COLUMN to the extreme position of 26 (row 8, col 2)...and so still housekeeping ;-) - as is 18, 04, 41 etc etc) - the TOP trigram of mountain elicits the sense of QUALITY CONTROL (DISCERNMENT) where the reactiveness of mountain in the bottom, of stopping, being blocked etc has been exploited, we become PROACTIVE and USE the blocking to our benefit - through discernment and so 'housekeeping' ;-) - as such 18 is about CORRECTING decay, be it literal or figurative (as in social neglect etc) - its skeletal form is described by analogy to 11 - a focus on harmonising/balancing ;-)

In the above, I have folded the binary sequence into octets where the COLUMNS reflect exaggerations to varying degrees of those qualities in row 1, and the ROWS reflect the exaggerations of those qualities in column 1. (e.g. in the bottom ROW, the 'calm' mediation dynamic of 11 is 'exaggerated' to the level of the high energy expenditure of 01)

As such, the columns focus on 'variations on a theme' set by the TOP trigram. The rows focus on 'variations on a theme' set by the BOTTOM trigram.

To move to a hexagram focus means moving to dodecagram formats (and so top hex over bottom hex).
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW - just as we can interpret 'opposites' across the whole set of 64 hexagrams in their 'binary' ordering, due to the recursion the SAME mode of interpretation is applicable to each octet, each quartet, each pair ;-)
 
C

candid

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Traditions and beliefs are all you seem to apply this to, Chris. That's quite a bias you have there. Or perhaps a prejudice? That's not very 'scientific'. Where is this shown within the mountain and earth? Neither of these demonstrate tradition or belief. They merely are true to their inherent nature. The applicable anthropomorphism doesn't have to include a tradition or belief. Only an occurrence of nature, a cause and effect.
 

lightofdarkness

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All I see in your prose Candid is what looks like an attempt to try and maintain your perspective. The problem is that your perspective is INCLUDED in mine and so mine has more choices ;-) Law of Requisite Variety - system with the most choices will benefit over the long run.

From the REALLY generic level we have:

mountain reduces to contractive bonding.
earth reduces to contractive blending.

There is no 'bias' there, that comes straight out of the 'mindless' dynamics of recursing integrate/differentiate. VERY general, VERY vague, VERY 'wide' into which we pour particulars.

ANYHING that fits into those characteristics will 'fit' 23 - such that we can have earth as total darkness and mountain as the first bit of 'structure' if you like ... and so the 'splitting apart' perspective where the last bond is about to break leaving darkness ;-) - the 'protective', PROACTIVE focus is on stopping that break. the 'reactive' focus is on getting away from this context ;-)

That is a dominatingly negative perspective. A ICPlus emphasises, each hexagram being a TEMPLATE can be painted with the positive or the negative.

Applied to SOCIAL humans and we move to exploiting the bond/blend dynamics (to the competitive we introduce the cooperative) to a focus on what the positive base trigram is about - devotion to another/others (as compared to heaven and its devotion to self ;-)) - IOW darkness has been exploited to be a source of protection (as beliefs are) and the focus is positive, on PRESERVING a PARTICULAR bond.

Now I dont know about you, but devotion associates with beliefs. Furthermore the 'external context drives' focus operating in the realm of YIN means the devotion is to family, church, football club ,guru, some text, etc etc

The set of YIN based trigrams for devotion to another/others is:

02, 23, 08, 20, 16, 35, 45, 12

I assume you would translate 12 into its LOCAL terms (standstill, stagnation) - taking it without question? That is more of a 'religious' perspective and reflects the nature of yin - filtration, to be driven by external context - IOW the focus on TOTAL FAITH in that external context to provide and be a source of identity.

Understand 12 in its positive and negative forms and it also becomes a symbol of parrying the attacks of others upon one's beliefs; singlemindedness in medation (devotion to self) operating in a context of devotion to another/others. Now, from the BIAS of the traditional IC, with its focus on CHANGE, so such perspectives are considered 'negative' in that they foster avoiding change - and so the BIAS in the original text re 'standstill, stagnation' etc.


From the realm of emotions, 12 in its 'raw' form reflects ANGER in a context of FEAR.

FEAR stems from the more generic focus on a need to integrate with the context and so dissapear. FROM THAT comes a DEPENDENCY on that context for protection and for assertion of identity. IOW from FEAR comes devotion to another/others.

23, from the raw emotions perspective, reflects GRIEF in a context of FEAR. Grief covers the loss of a loved on (as compared to LOVE that gets into the joy of being with a loved on physically as well as mentally)

EXPLOIT grief, USE IT, and from our losses we develop quality control, we develop discernment... applicable to 23 IN GENERAL where the discernment is in the TOP position, devotion to another/others in the bottom.

The benefits of understanding the UNIVERSAL IC material is on understanding the BIAS in perspective of the traditional IC. THAT universal perspective, that focus on covering ALL is 'Scientific' ;-)

In 23, IN THE CONTEXT of devotion to others (contractive blending to DRAW IN X and so be WHOLE) we have a BONDING focus which means sharing SPACE with another/others. The CONTRACTIVE nature reflects a focus more 'in here' than 'out there' and the TOP position reflects the focus on discernment.

So - we have discernment in a context of devotion - the BEHAVIOUR being on removing the chaff from the wheat - (you can even read the traditional texts to get that 'vibe' ;-))

As ICPlus shows, the TOP line of hexagrams relates to them being unconditional or conditional (reflecting the local influence of the 02/23 pair on that line) and 23 is conditional, particular, in approach to dealing with its context.

All of this translates to the 'housekeeping' focus in general, and to that focus applied to devotion to another/others in particular.

As such, under-exaggerating the qualities of 23 gives us housekeeping. over-exaggerating the qualities of 23 gives us the high priest/priestess focused on getting back to the 'raw', the 'true' faith/belief - removing all of the 'rubbish' the bring out the 'truth'.

In comparing the really universal, the blend, bond, bound, bind focus, the projection of negative/positive attributes is more 'local' - the universal could not care less about that level of expression, it is all 'bonding' and 'blending' as far as it is concerned.

The 'ancients' had no idea on the DETAILS of what we are dealing with from a neurosciences/psychology perspective and so 'entangled' positive and negative as the interpretations and translations 'built up'.

As I pointed out on another thread, we are dealing with something akin to pure mathematics - as our minds have developed so we are uncovering the patterns already there from the 'beginning' of neurology; real numbers, imaginary numbers etc where no where developed then as they are now - but that does not mean they did not exist 'then' - mearly that we had not discovered them.

THROUGH the IDM material we are still discovering I Ching material - it is NOT a closed book (as fundamentalists would like it to be). If you find that a 'problem', it is YOUR problem and you will need to 'wrestle' with it and so consider its affects on you own sense of identity and 'world view'.

Gettin back to the trigrams, both mountain and earth show, given understanding of REFINEMENT and so of the RAW base to the REFINED top trigram etc the focus on:

The REACTIVE nature of stoppage, blockage associated with mountain becoming PROACTIVE with mountain in the top position.

(http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t7.html)


The REACTIVE nature of darkness/devotion etc becomes PROACTIVE with earth on top - we develop a n absolute trust in another/others (dualmindedness - as compared to the absolute trust in self - singlemindedness of 01)

(http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t8.html)

The obvious fact that you do not understand the development of a focus on beliefs and traditions from earth and mountain indicates, IMHO, that you have a LOT more work to do in understanding the UNIVERSAL I Ching - but if you dont want to do that, thats fine, you continue on your current path. simple. easy. ;-)

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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... and dont forget the use of the opposites to derive even more 'meaning' - IOW as 23 is pruning so 43 is seeding. ;-) ... it is all connected together - self-referencing at work!

Chris.
 
C

candid

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Simple and easy. Yup, sounds like me alright. Because to me all you are doing is making a molehill a mountain. But I've maintained, that's cool too. It's how YOU visualize it. And "it" is all human construct. The rest is simply nature, or what we call nature.

Tell me, if you're inclined, how do you describe the Tao?
 

lightofdarkness

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Candid,
<snip>
>
> Posted by Candid (Candid) on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 12:36 am:
>
> Simple and easy. Yup, sounds like me alright. Because to me all you
> are doing is making a molehill a mountain.

:) no - I am showing you the size of the house you live in; it is huge, many floors etc and so one can step out of one's little room to 'look around' and experience the 'full spectrum' of our being. Simply put, to use your molehill/mountain perspective, the mountain has always been there - your just tucked up in some cave and have never come out and look around! ;-)

> But I've maintained, that's
> cool too. It's how YOU visualize it. And "it" is all human construct.
> The rest is simply nature, or what we call nature.
>

differentiating/integrating. Our species has adapted to that by internalising it - and so our maps work so well....but our species has also developed something else, a proactive mediation system - consciousness - and so something not only focused on the real but also the imagined. Through the imagined we can pre-empt the need to adapt to a context; we can fit-in before the need to fit-in! (the only issues being our imagination can sometimes 'escape' the laws of physics etc)

> Tell me, if you're inclined, how do you describe the Tao?
>

Which one? you mean the one that cannot be talked about, only experienced? If that is the case then that is funny question to ask! ;-)

If you want to 'push' the issue, then all I can say is if you can stop the monkey mind for a moment, and so your consciousness, and 'be' a primate, a species-member, then the WHOLE of that experience reflects the WHOLE of the IC being expressed 'at once'. The problem with consciousness is that it is overly specialist and operates off delay. The problem with speciesness is that it operates immediately and so unconsciously! ;-) ... gets into the notion of any moment in fact mapping all hexagrams into best-fit/worst-fit order - a topology perspective that reflects the 'all is linked together' concept. Our consciousness cannot experience that - all it focuses on is the seemingly 'best fit' - the 'bright lights' than can be 'deluding' at times.

Note that the immediate/delay dichotomy applies to the I Ching, best observed using the binary sequence, and better observed if we split that into two threads - YIN and YANG (if you want to get really sophisticated we could form a double helix out of this ;-)). Thus, for ease in representiation, from the level of trigrams we have orderings of:

000, 001, 010, 011 YIN
100, 101, 110, 111 YANG

The IMMEDIATE is at the left - in yin it is reflected in being pushed by context, and so 000 is 'immediate' where energy elicits a form. Move to 011 and we enter the realm of the cultivated, and so the DELAYED, but still with a GENERAL focus on external context; we COEXIST with it.

Move to the YANG thread and the immediate is still on the left but now manifest in the surprise, the suddeness of Thunder, as compared to the mediation dynamics and so DELAY of Heaven. The difference here is on context, for in YANG the dominating context is WITHIN - we 'take over' the existing in some way or another; we REPLACE it with our own.

Chris.
 
C

candid

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And all this benefits us how? I mean really; other than inflating your/our sense of significance. It furthers our species because..? Fire was discovered, or how to create fire using natural elements, some millions of years ago. Today it heats homes (just like back then) and also makes more effective bombs. And our species is the better for it. hmm.

Objectivity is always relative to the subject, to the observer, no matter how mathematical the equation might be. One doesn't need to go through mental contortions and inventive language to perceive the impersonal universe. One can leave the cave with eyes half-closed and breathing as a newborn child.

To each their own species nature.
 

lightofdarkness

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>
> Posted by Candid (Candid) on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 2:26 am:
>
> And all this benefits us how? I mean really; other than inflating
> your/our sense of significance. It furthers our species because..?

We start to understand the METAPHORS we call 'specialisations'. The fact that, understanding the properties and methods we use AS A SPECIES to derive meaning, we can better understand specialist perspectives, pick up the 'lingo' quicker since we already know what that lingo is TRYING to represent - patterns of differentiating/integrating.

I have received some 'positive' emails re the IDM perspective on Mathematics where people who could never understand such concepts as 'irrational numbers' and 'imaginary numbers' etc but now do. NO mathematics course touches on any of this due to their specialist perspectives; the focus on deriving meaning from 'within' the box, regardless of any improvements of understanding outside of that box.

The ROOT focus on IDM is:

(a) a 'species 101' course on how we derive meaning, create specialist languages etc, that all 'point' to the ONE set of generic qualities we use, as a species, to derive meaning. Consciousness will then take those universals and re-label them for each unique context - and so out pops LOTS of labels etc Being born into that context with no idea how it arises can be 'stressful' for many ;-) ... and with the increased dynamics of our proactive, XOR, environment, so IDM allows one to 'chill' a bit - see behind the labels etc and so remain in contact with our species-nature. (IOW we recognise fundamentalism as a property of YANG thinking and so can compensate for it to aid in avoiding such fundamentalist events as Heaven's Gate, Waco, Columbine and even 'extremes' in religious fundamentalism that supports being competitive about metaphors!) - as said before, such a course would be first year university or last year highschool - and so allowing some experience to aid in 'getting' the core qualities.

(b) a SEED for AI systems to develop a sense of 'meaning' that is, basically, congruent with ours. As a seed it allows for 'local variations' but the basic QUALITIES will be the same.

If you think carefully about this, you may start to realise that the IDM material serves to make things SIMPLER and EASIER than current conditions. The problem is the over-sensitivity to labels and so difference that is, in fact, delusion - a facade that is not taken as such, it is taken literally, factually, and so people do not 'look behind'; do not question.

The IDM material is not only applicable to the IC, it is applicable to all of our categorisation systems where we use dichotomy to flesh-out details - XOR at work. That is a NATURAL process of our being and understanding that process can be of benefit ;-) As such, IDM replaces nothing, it acts to AID in fleshing-out aspects of people or situations due to understanding the BEDROCK that lies beneath the TOPSOIL. (note that through IDM and ICPlus people start to get an education about logic, reason, etc through experiencing feelings ;-))

Through the application of IDM to the traditional I Ching we have uncovered the universal IC, or more so the template out of which these specialist metaphors are created - as such we have stepped out of the cave mouth, turned around, and looked up to see the mountain ;-) ... and now explore that mountain.

Now, if YOU feel you need to go back into the cave - thats fine. The GENERAL properties and methods will still operate in you but limit you to playing with integers and rational numbers and a geometric bias and that may suit you personally, but in the focus on understanding meaning generation across the species, and how, through that understanding, we may 'improve' our lot, we cannot spend our times in isolation in some cave - our species-nature elicits a sense of social contribution and so expanding any really useful perspectives to the level of species-awareness.

What happens in isolationist perspectives is that they get sterile/decadent and so in need of a 'lift' - new blood is required to go further, or else one can dissapear into one's head (a property of fundamentalism - we create our own little worlds ;-)) IDM gives some 'new blood' into specialist perspectives; a bit like coming up with irrational and imaginary numbers! Simple. Easy. ;-)

ONCE you work through all of the UNIVERSAL aspects of the IC, then you forget them in that you will find they become part of your unconscious because your unconscious is aware of their benefits in fitting into a context 'smoothly' ;-)

Chris.
 
C

candid

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So then, you make the assumption that no-one can start to understand the metaphors YOU call 'specializations'. Well geeze, no wonder you think we all need help.

I in no way discredit your math prowess. It is your localized specialization, and your way of perceiving the 'universe'. But it is still just perception. It doesn't change what is.

When I hear of kids slitting the throat of cab drivers just for the thrill of it, I don?t think: ?gee, if only they grasped the IDM material, they wouldn?t want to do this.? Granted, these kids need to step outside their private worlds and see a bigger picture. But, Chris, there are many ways to do that. Standing in the desert at night and looking up at the stars can fill a person with all the awe they need to step outside their little box. (20.6)
 

lightofdarkness

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I make no assumptions. I look at the data. As a systems-analyst etc that is what I do. EACH OF US AS AN INDIVIDUAL is a specialist and, given the chance, would create our own language to describe reality. Education prevents that, even though each generation DOES come up with their own 'creole' style of language. FACT. ;-)

YOU are a specialisation, I am a specialisation, and as such we are PARTS of the WHOLE that is our species-nature.

Now, since YOU have some issues in understanding ME then YOU are demonstrating EXACTLY the point re specialisations - your being competitive, 'mine vs yours', whereas I am working from a wider perspective and that includes cooperative. YOU dont understand ME, but I think I understand YOU. Who has the most choices? ;-) - I benefit from the use of the IDM paradigm. Simple. Easy.

As for your comments about kids etc - their training is at fault OR there is a genetic anomoly at work. BOTH problems are 'solvable' - and understanding the 'urges' etc can aid in self-discipline - something perhaps needed in current times ;-)

Now, as for standing in the desert - from a perspective of inner city NYC or LA - whats that? you mean the emotional desert? ;-)

You perspectives are all personal and as such reflect your dominating focus - you. IDM perspective is as a universal TOOL and so spans you, and me, and all the rest of us.

LOCAL experiences of 'awe' come in many sensory forms but behind those specialist senses is the 'raw' nature of our being and that is wrapped-up in differentiating/integrating ;-)
 

lightofdarkness

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;-)

in a base 10 system, 5 + 5 = 10 .... always.

in base 8 system, 7 + 1 = 10 .... always.

in base 16 system, 9 + 1 = A .... always.

... and the underlying quality of '10' in these representations is constant, universal - not prone to weather conditions, colours, sounds etc etc.

nite.
 

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