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Trump, Charlottesville etc

lavalamp

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Would it be possible to get back to discussing readings?..........
It's probably important to differentiate between what we personally hope to see happen with Trump and other such 'very fine people', and readings talking specifically about the outcome of this particular report's publication. (Or, of course, non-publication...)
This "very fine people" dig Hillary. Tsk tsk.
For the record two groups were fighting all day in the streets in Charlottesville, Antifa (Communists/Anarchists) and White Nationalists (racists) , both Trump condemned, *neither* did he refer to as very fine people.
The pretext of their fight was the issue of the Historical Preservation of Confederate Monuments. On THAT issue, there ARE "very fine people" on both sides of that argument. Some who say we should remember the past for better or worse and preserve the statues, and some who rightly point out some of these monuments were erected as intimidation against the black population,
Personally I think we should preserve some of them and take down the ones erected as intimidation.
Anyway "very fine people on both sides" referred to THAT argument, the Preservation of Historical Monuments. He was not endorsing Antifa nor endorsing Skinheads, and he specifically repudiated the White Nationalists.
The media has been extremely dishonest in how they have conflated and misrepresented this situation - and I work in the media.

- LL
 

moss elk

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both Trump condemned, *neither* did he refer to as very fine people.
Tsk, Tsk, lavalamp, Your relationship with reality is in need of improvement.
(This is an observation, not a diagnosis, I'll leave you to explain the reasons why, but I don't think you will.)
It is no wonder that you have been defending the lying madman repeatedly on this forum.
It can be clearly seen at 1:08 that he did, in fact, say they were very fine people.
And he wasn't referring to people interested in discussions, working for best solutions, or compromise, he was referring specifically to the crowds present that day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmaZR8E12bs

In regards to the monuments, after the civil war, laws were passed that forbade the public display of monuments and the confederate flag in public places, limiting them to memorials and museums.
Fifty or so years after that was established as best, the descendants decided to start putting them back up. So, the best decision regarding the monuments was made over a century and a half ago.
People of no great intellect or vision, motivated by family PRIDE decided to put them back up.
(this kind of pride is not a virtue)
To place a statue in a public place is to honor the one depicted in the statue.
No one should be honored for dishonorable things, especially treasonous-slavers.
The actual descendants of some confederate leaders, including Robert E Lee the 5th , have spoken out, saying that the monuments should be removed from public spaces.
You can read about that here:

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-e-lee-statue-charlottesville-donald-trump-white-nationalists-651208

Lest anyone forget, collectively, we are only a century past Empires.
All these problems are directly linked to Empire, and the systems they set up that are only sustainable by having Serfs, bondsmen (indentured servants like in 54) , and slaves.

I wish the queen mother would comment on this, and recognize her families part in it all.
 
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lavalamp

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I'm not arguing with you over Confederate monuments. I think I have a rather moderate view on the issue, but I am entitled to my opinion as are you to yours - right?
But Trump did not and was not endorsing white nationalists when he said there were very fine people on both sides of the argument. Because he was talking about the preservation of Confederate monuments, not about a binary choice between racism and communist anarchy. Both of which he has condemned.
The more you don't like someone, the harder the work it is to get back to the middle ground of being fair. The Yi teaches in fact you need to be able to suspend your judgment entirely when you look at someone, in order to be truly fair to them. Doesn't it? You know it does. The surest sign of bias and bigotry, is when someone is doing no work to counter their personal feelings on a matter. Because it takes work when you have Animus, increasingly harder work the greater the contempt. And yours is pretty self-evident.

-LL
 
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lavalamp

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The Department of Homeland Security had been monitoring the white nationalists and anarchist groups before the Charlottesville Riots, and warned the governor and the mayor these two groups had prepared for war in the streets there. That's what happened, it went on all day, because the mayor of Charlottesville told the cops to stand back and just let it happen.
In case you dispute that these are the two groups that were fighting in the street all day. Neither of these groups was the president calling "very fine people." He was not endorsing Antifa by saying there were very fine people on both sides, by your logic *you* are saying Antifa, which have been responsible for a lot of political violence are.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/29/charlottesville-violence-homeland-security-242140

-LL
 

hilary

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(Continuing from the Mueller's Report thread here:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?27383-Mueller-s-Report )

Moss Elk, a little Googling reveals that the far right press has started re-spinning Trump's comments on Charlottesville lately. I wonder why the revisiting, years later? Distraction? If he wasn't really calling in his Neo-Nazi supporters then, then his current efforts to mobilise panic and hatred about migration aren't really racist either? Or something?

By the way, the Queen Mother died in 2002 ;) . The Queen has spent all her 90+ years never commenting on anything, so I don't suppose she's about to change that. Though I agree it might be useful if she did.

LL, you seem inclined to suggest an equivalence between the people who armed themselves to the teeth to march on synagogues while chanting Nazi slogans, and those who showed up to get between them and their targets. I find this odd.
 

moss elk

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The surest sign of bias and bigotry, is when someone is doing no work to counter their personal feelings on a matter. Because it takes work when you have Animus, increasingly harder work the greater the contempt. And yours is pretty self-evident.
My observations. thoughts, feelings, and position on the man, his fraudster inner circle. and extremist worshipers developed over time. I am quite happy with them.

You keep expressing something very bizzare to me. You are quite free with the way you throw around the words bias and bigotry: as if every person and every idea were to be treated identically, having equal merit.
Ideas do not have equal merit.
People do not have equal merit.
All voices are not equal.
All positions are not equal.
The voices of a mewling drunk in the alley, a racist fast talking conman on amphetamines (trump), a teacher devoted to children, a doctor who advocates for the poor, these voices have no identical value. Two are clearly superior to the other two.


I will wear my disdain for this admin as a badge of honor.
Thank you for reminding me to stand tall.

About the binary choice imposed by the political parties:
My city just did something amazing.
The recent mayoral election took away all the power from the political parties and put it in the hands of the people.
The big parties each backed a candidate and neither won because the election required a 50% majority, not of electoral college judges, but of real votes. Over a dozen people ran, and an unlikely person was elected due to the required run off. This needs to happen on a national level so we never have candidates as bad as clinton or trump again.
 
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moss elk

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the Queen has spent all her 90+ years never commenting on anything, so I don't suppose she's about to change that. Though I agree it might be useful if she did.
Ah, But I saw her wear that hat with the stars!
 

Freedda

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This "very fine people" dig Hillary. Tsk tsk.
Lavalamp, my take on Hilary's comment is that it is not a 'dig' at all. I take it to mean that by making this reading more about people's own politics and less about what the Yi is actually saying that 'very fine people' can be anyone or anything anyone wants them to be: from Trump to Hillary (not our Hilary!). But I have to say, to stereotype all those who came out to protest against the white supremacist and white separatist (which is how many of them describe themselves) as 'Communists/Anarchists' is anything but unbiased and journalistic!

Tsk, Tsk, lavalamp, Your relationship with reality is in need of improvement. (This is an observation, not a diagnosis, ....
Moss Elk, Tsk Tst back at you. All this thread has been are people's observation and political musings, most of which have nothing to do with what the Yi is actually saying.

As I've said a number of times about this and other posts, in my view Fanofenka is using the Yi as a "yes man" to agree with his own opinions on Trump and his own politics. And while I might agree with his politics, these posts have nothing to do with what the Yi is saying on the matter. And both you and Lavalamp keep insisting in continuing this far-less-than-fine tradition of misrepresentation.

But I suppose now that Hilary has moved this to Open Space, you're all free to continue with your political musing and rantings - now in the proper setting.


Regards, David.
 
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lavalamp

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Hillary - I most certainly am not. In Charlottesville you had anarchist/communists and white nationalists fighting in the street. Neither group are very fine people, and that's not spin. Both groups advocate political violence. I posted a link about the warning the Department Of Homeland Security sent the Mayor and Govenor about Antifa and the White Nationalist preparing to riot. The real scandal here, the mayor ordered crowd control that guaranteed clashes and did nothing to stop it. A few weeks later in Boston it was the same situation, but the Mayor and Cops confiscated all the body armor and weapons and sticks and back packs and kept everyone separated so nothing happened.
Very fine people referred to people who disagree on the issue of the preservation of Confederate monuments. There are good people that disagree on this issue.
That's not spin. Spin is to say that Trump was endorsing racism when he most certainly was not. But then Communists - like Antifa in charlottesville - have been calling America racist since the 1930s. When they have in fact murdered more people than any other ism or ideology in human history, killed more people in the 20th century than were killed in every 20th century war combined.

- LL
 

Freedda

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.... In Charlottesville you had anarchist/communists and white nationalists fighting in the street.
'Those who marched in opposition to the rally were unified in opposition to white supremacy, but espoused a wide array of ideological beliefs, preferred tactics and political goals. A large number were ordinary residents of Charlottesville who wanted to show their disdain for white supremacist groups, ... Ahead of the rally, an array of faith-based groups, civil rights organizations, local businesses, and faculty and students at the University of Virginia" planned counterprotests .... Members of the Antifa movement were also in attendance.'

Spin is to say that Trump was endorsing racism when he most certainly was not.
What trump was doing was tip-toeing around the fact that the white racist at the rally are also his supporters. As former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke said, Trump should "take a good look in the mirror and remember it was White Americans who put you in the presidency, not radical leftists."

But then Communists - like Antifa in charlottesville - have been calling America racist since the 1930s - LL
First, if the 'antifa' or anyone else have only been calling our country racist since the 1930s than they've definitely been slacking. Second you're throwing around these labels of people like 'communist' and 'antifa' - who were in the minority among the counter-protesters in Charlottesville - as if they fit together or all have the same ideologies, and they don't.
 

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