Unchanging Hexagrams - Specifically 61

[peace]

Hi everyone:

This has come up before....
What is the difference between getting an unchanging hexagram and just reading the hexagram without the changing lines (like you do when you get something as the second hexagram - after the lines have changed from the first).

Sometimes, (based on the R.L. Wing commentaries for example) - an unchanging hexagram takes on a totally different meaning than reading the hexagram without the lines - if you know what I mean.

Anyway - that's the first question - how do you read the unchanging hexagram.

Next - anyone have some insight into 61 unchanging -
My question was - How to respond to a phone call I got so that I have integrity and respect both of us.

Now, 61 makes sense - but the fact that it was unchanging may say something.

Unchanging seems either static or rigid or something different than just the "normal" meaning of the hexagram.

Thanks,
Rosalie

 

[ewald]

I think the hexagram name sums up the theme of the all the line texts in the hexagram.

In the case of hexagram 61, I have a problem with the common translation of it's name with "Inner Truth," as the hexagram is in my opinion not about truth or inner truth, but about trust and confidence (inner trust). As the Chinese character that is translated as truth can also mean trust, which I believe to actually be it's basic meaning, I'm translating it accordingly. (I think Wilhelm's habit of translating it as "sincerity" or "truth" is rooted in the moralism of Confucianism.)

I personally see no difference in meaning between the hexagram as a whole, and the unchanging hexagram (the Judgment in Wilhelm's text).

Seeming differences in these meanings in my opinion can also in other instances have to do with imprecise translation. I for instance don't think that hexagram 11 is about peace in any way, but about a state of flow, hex. 34 is not about "The Power of the Great" but about using much force. I don't quite know what "Preponderance of the Great" means, but I think as a hexagram name "Too Much" is an appropriate translation (hex. 34). Similarly "Preponderance of the Small" doesn't mean much to me, but "Too Little" does (hex.62).

But others probably have a different opinon.

 

[void]

Yes I think you're right. The hexagram names are quite misleading. I struggled with 'peace' for so long, made no sense - 'a state of flow' makes sense.

 

[heylise]

When you get a hexagram with changing lines, the lines show you where you can do things, and what. They specify a certain action within the context of the hexagram.

So no changing lines can mean that you don't have to do anything specific, or that there is no special problem, or no way to do anything about it. In your case, 61 could mean that you should be true to yourself, but the Yi obviously thinks that you are very well able to do so, you need no special advice.

So I think it can be positive or negative - nothing is lacking or nothing is possible. The opposite, all lines changing, told me once that what I tried to accomplish was way beyond my abilities. Something like "forget it, this is too heavy for you". So many things would have to be done, figured out, tried, and so on, that the chance of succes was almost zero.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

The name of hex.11 is Tai, the sacred mountain of the Zhou. "The lofty one" or something similar. The image of a sacred mountain is for me many times clearer than any name.

28 is crossing a great mountain-pass, 62 a small pass. 9 and 26 have to do with farming: raising and tending small and big livestock.

In many cases the literal image says more than a translation into an abstract concept.

Lise

 

[ewald]

We mostly do agree on 9 and 26, LiSe. I have Small Herd and Large Herd.

 

[bruce]

Opinion: 61 means common voice. When everything outside is stripped away, it is what's left. And it is the only voice which can be trusted, without condition.

 

[peace]

The names of the hexagrams are confusing for me.

Eward - you said the Judgement in Wilheim is the unchanging hexagram? I never knew that.

Lise, when you talk about farming - raising and tending small and big livestock. How do you "translate" that to us (especially if you're not a farmer!)

 

[ewald]

Rosalie - I guess people have different ways of interpreting their casting, and deciding what applies. It is commonly understood that when you receive an unchanging hexagram, you're supposed to take that as the Judgment (also called the "hexagram text") that applies.

You can always read other more general texts, like the Image in Wilhelm, whenever you cast a particular hexagram.

 

[heylise]

Looking after small livestock can mean to care for your own household, children, cat and expenses. Or looking after your body, health, the health of your people. Has everyone enough to eat, enough attention.
Is your house in order, the real one, the physical one, the mental one.

The big animals have to do with mental values, myth, tradition, social status. In 26 "many former words and deeds and proceedings, in order to accumulate his virtue", and in 9 "cultivates the pattern of virtue". In 9 things are smaller, closer by, according to your own personal values, and in 26 they have to do with values of humanity.

LiSe

 

[void]

61 unchanging I would take as confirmation you are already have integrity therefore you don't need to worry about the phone call. Often this hex unchanging can mean 'yes this is so' or so some others here have said previously and I have found it holds true. Your answer to me is quite simply saying as you will be speaking from your own sincerity in the call there can be no other outcome than integrity. Just speaking from your heart you cannot go wrong here.

 

[bruce]

"Just speaking from your heart you cannot go wrong here."

Unless the other isn't listening with their heart.

 

[void]

Well then thats their problem, you've done what you can. You can't tie yourself in knots in order to manipulate their reaction, thing is that won't work either. 61 anyway does indicate that ones own sincerity is met by others inward sincerity also. True sincerity being ultimately irresistable if you know what I mean

 

[peace]

Thanks.
Lise - sorry I can get a little concrete and literal at times.

Bruce - I don't care if the other person doesn't listen. As Void says, that's his problem.
I am working towards being more and more sincere.
It makes my life easier over the long haul.

And...it's hard sometimes.

Rosalie

 

[bruce]

Void and Rosalie, yes, I understand what you're saying. One can have inner truth without it resonating with the one you're attempting to communicate with, but that truth finds no echo, there is no sharing of wine. So I have to ask, why bother?

 

[renqizhen]

A closed gua without changing lines may feel as if someone dumped a truckload of bricks in front of your house...

I usually read Cheng Yi, Zhu Yi and Wang Bi's comments to the judgment and images, and then quickly scan all the yao judgments and comments to create an "inner trust" or deeper understanding for the whole gua.

This gua is about influencing others, through judgment, attitude, attraction, relation, humility, suggestion or words. "The chüntzu discusses criminal cases in order to delay executions."

"When obliged to judge the mistakes of man, the chüntzu tries to penetrate their minds with understanding in order to gain a symphatetic appreciation of the circumstances." Today, we trust the governor to be guided by an inner truth when he's asked for a stay of execution...

Personally, we often rush to judgment without trying to reach that deeper understanding and clarity, that inner voice of integrity which knows how and when to pardon. It takes a lot of soul searching and humility to revoke our rush to judgment, especially if we have committed ourselves in public to an unfavorable assessment of someone. So, in this case, maybe you've just got to live and let go?

Now, if a closed gua still doesn't make much sense, even after a cup of Chinese tea and some reflection, I will consult the Classic of Changes once more, and I'll rephrase my question just a little. Because the first gua is sometimes a warning of a problem or danger unseen, and the second gua will point more directly at this issue, which I am trying to avoid confronting.

(And if the first gua is repeated immediately - that means "DUUH!" - and another truckload of bricks...)

 

[peace]

Hi Bruce -

One can have inner truth without it resonating with the one you're attempting to communicate with, but that truth finds no echo, there is no sharing of wine. So I have to ask, why bother?
-------------------------------------------------
I get what you're saying.
I wouldn't spout truth for the sake of it.
This person asked and although he may want to know, I doubt that he'll like it and I'm willing to risk the friendship because as far as I'm concerned there's no real friendship that exists if he doesn't respond respectfully.

In the past, I can admit there were times I used "truth" to exploit, manipulate or make my point without regard for someone else - either because I was angry, wanted to impress or any other number of not so nice reasons.

At this point, I'll only tell the truth if I'm asked, if the person is not going to manipulate me or use it "against" me or if I think I really need to express myself for reasons I believe are important for my emotional or physical well-being.

And yes, if someone doesn't want to hear it - why bother (most of the time). I agree.

Thanks for explaining...
Rosalie

 

[jte]

Opinion:

The Yi's answers, both changing lines and unchanging Hexagrams, will mean different things in the context of different questions.

Elaborating/embellishing on some comments from other folks above: 61 can, in some contexts, refer to one's inner spirituality. This is the same as (or at least similar to) Jesus' "faith", Buddist "earnestness", etc, in my opinion.

This spiritual quality can be powerful enough that others around you will notice and respond to it. We, naturally, normally think of other people doing this, but some of the commentaries suggest it can go beyond that - from Legge "It denotes the highest quality of man, and gives it's possessor power so that he prevails with spiritual beings, with other men, and with the lower creatures."

FYI, Legge translates 61's name, "Chung Fu," as "Inmost Sincerity." I've always felt this was a substantially more evocative (and therefore more useful) name than "Inner Truth." I personally think "Faith" might make a good translation for getting at the spiritual meaning of 61 for many readers from a Western background. (Faith in the sense of inner spiritual quality, rather than blind trust.)

Just thought I'd put the above out for people's consideration, since folks were discussing the meaning(s) of 61 as a whole...

- Jeff

 

[bruce]

Hi Jeff,

I don't share your definition of 61 as 'faith', because there are many faiths which demonstrate little or no 'inner truth'. Also, the way I see 61, even inanimate objects have it, and they have no such thing as faith. There are many Bible verses that can be interpreted this way, also, IE:

Hab 2:11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.

Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

On the other hand, "faith" is mentioned in connection with 61, IE:

Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

As I see it, faith indeed can activate inner truth, but that same truth is in everything, right down to each grain of sand. That is the common voice, and it is why even pigs and fishes respond to it.

Or, how about 61 and pigs, as when Jesus commanded them to throw themselves off the cliff and into the sea? Or that devils also obeyed the voice of 61 when commanded by it. Or, changing water into wine. 61 exists also in the elements, which know nothing of human faith, and yet respond to the truth which is common in all things.

Talking "about" truisms, even when they are true, is not (to me) the same as 61. 61 shows only when there exists no bias, no opinion, no care of right or wrong, no prejudice. That is why the delay in execution of judgments, as Renqizhen has pointed out. The mind and heart must first be cleared of caring, or of having any personal attachment or investment. Because this truth has no preferences or private association with regard to favoring one thing over the next, it can be fully trusted. When judgment comes from this place, the scales are accurate.

 

[bruce]

Sorta like the Yi.

 

[rosada]

Perhaps 61 could be translated as meaning "Inner Feeling"., as in "I may not know art, but I know what I like." We all have this inner knowingness that tells us, "This feels right," or "This doesn't feel right." Getting this hexagram without change lines suggests to me that one should first consider this inner feeling before taking action.

In this particular situation, if one is expecting to have to say something negative to the caller you might "delay the execution" and first consider what you intend to say and notice if you feel good about it or if you feel heavy. If it doesn't "feel right" it probably wont flow right. When you do think things through until you feel clear and comfortable before speaking you may be very pleasantly rewarded to discover that the other person has likewise come to the same conclusion you have - that is that you have both experienced the same Inner Truth, or perhaps it turns out that you find where you had a misunderstanding and this is cleared up as you both reach the inner truth.

Bruce points out that if the clarity doesn't lead to connectedness, why bother? And indeed, this hexagram is all about using Inner Feeling to for connect people (The Older Sister and the Younger Sister) in a state of mutual trust. So it's not about just knowing that one's own Inner Truth and blurting it out and letting the chips fall where they may. Of course, one could do that, it's not saying don't do that, but it's offering suggestions on how people can connect by first looking for the Inner Feeling that connects us all.

Sometimes when I am feeling to say something but I am not sure if I should, I will consider my thoughts and ask for a cue, as in SILENTLY vibing to the other person, "I have this really funny joke to tell. Do you want to hear it?" and invaribly there will either be an appropriate opening or conversely, something comes up that me to show me it was NOT the time. Perhaps as you consider what you want to say to your caller and ask The Air Traffic Controller In The Sky for guidance you will find the perfect opening appears, or you find you don't need to say anything at all.

 

[peace]

Ala Bruce:
Talking "about" truisms, even when they are true, is not (to me) the same as 61. 61 shows only when there exists no bias, no opinion, no care of right or wrong, no prejudice. That is why the delay in execution of judgments, as Renqizhen has pointed out. The mind and heart must first be cleared of caring, or of having any personal attachment or investment. Because this truth has no preferences or private association with regard to favoring one thing over the next, it can be fully trusted. When judgment comes from this place, the scales are accurate.
-------------
My perspective is this also.
There really is truth.
I know some of this new age bull says you create your own reality - and in some ways you do - but not by making up truth. You behave a certain way and that comes back to you (i.e. - act defensive and you get negativity or aloofness back).

Yes, truth is the truth. People may see it differently, but there is an objective reality.
Try walking through a wall - and see if it doesn't hurt upon impact!

Anyway - in the conversation I'm going to have with my "friend" something objective occurred. And Rosada - I would not have said anything if he didn't call and say he wanted to discuss it. I would have let the relationship go.
This isn't about opinion. Behavior is objective.
Interpretation of meaning of a behavior is based on individual needs, wants, etc.
I can say what I will or will not participate in -what is good for me.
The other person may not like it - but it doesn't matter. It's not that I don't care about him - I do. However, I get to decide what behaviors I want to be around. Then he gets to decide if he's able or willing to comply in my presence.
There is no judgement....unless I continue to participate around/in something I don't want to and that will later result in anger, resentment, feeling bad about myself, etc.
It's actually very simple.

I like Jeff's definition of faith - however, I do not interpret that as 61. I see faith also as - I have the faith in myself and those around me that they will do the right thing. Commitments have been kept in the past. Reliability and dependability has been demonstrated. However, I do not believe in blind faith. It's more - I am open unless there is evidence that I shouldn't be. It's more a neutral thing - not trusting or distrusting, but knowing I can handle whatever happens and there are reliable and trustworthy people in my life.

 

[peace]

Just reread my post and see I'm just a little dogmatic about this....And yes, I was confused by alot of what I read in new age literature many years ago and it's taken me awhile to straighten it out. That's why I love I Ching - it doesn't make up stuff! That's why my original concern about unchanging hexagrams and how static are they really.

 

[rosada]

Hi Rosalie,
I'm afraid my ruminations on 61 may have come off as if I were giving you advice. Darn it, I had an Inner Feeling it was probably coming off that way. Of course, Inner Feeling can also direct us to recognize that our own gut-level knowingness can be telling us to not get involved at all. Point is, whatever the guidance, I see 61 as saying be aware that we are all connected to Truth, God and each other through the inner feelings and that if one first becomes quiet and observes what the inner FEELING is, rather than the mental analysis, the appropriate path of action often becomes clear. Perhaps 61 should be titled Trust Your Feelings.

 

[peace]

Rosada:

I think "Trust your Feelings" is overrated.
I'd probably call it more an inner knowing.
Many times our "feelings" are excuses for not doing what we're supposed to do.
"I feel" tends to be an excuse to break commitments, hurt others and act out.
Feelings give an indication that something needs to be examined - and questions asked - "Is this feeling based on being pissed off, not wanting to do something, etc."

Anyway - I'm ruminating just as you were!

 

[jte]

Just to clarify, I see (this particular aspect of) 61 as indicating a kind of "spiritual" energy. There are many definitions of "faith" out there, so naturally it would match what the reader has in mind in some cases and not others.

I can't think of an individual English word that really matches my concept/experience of "Chung Fu". I think maybe this has been a problem for others as well, so in the translations we end up with terms like "inner truth" which aren't specific. My point in using "faith" was that for some folks that would help get the idea across, *not* that it's *the right* translation. I do think that "faith" is one of very few English words that has this meaning of "spiritual energy."

It's interesting that translators who, I suspect, were well aware of the spiritual aspect of this Hexagram *didn't* translate it as "faith." Not sure why that is, perhaps because of the connotation of blind belief/acceptance that seems to go along with the meaning in English. Or perhaps because of how tightly "faith" is tied into belief in Christ specifically for many English speakers.

Bruce, what you write about specific objects is interesting. I've never seen it quite the same way, but I have indeed felt like "my" inner truth is responded to by what's "out there." Kind of like a harmony or oneness with the world. Not sure if what you're talking about is different or just a different way of experiencing the same thing.

- Jeff

 

[bruce]

Jeff, yes, it's the same. You're right, English can be terribly clumsy, and since it's the only language I know, I'm stuck with it.

I was speaking with coyote earlier today, and we were discussing it. We took a little journey off the main lake, and up into one its creeks. And then we listened for the 'common voice', that I spoke of. Buzzing of insects over purple flowers, the sun lighting up tall blades of grass, the smell of dried pine wood, a frog hopping off a lily pad. Or it could be fresh snow crunching beneath your boots. It's something there simply are no words for, yet they touch you somewhere deep inside. Little kid's understand the voice, much easier, and most of our connections with "it" originate in tender and impressionable years, before our more discriminating features and opinions were formed. Once our features and opinions are formed, there are more and more layers added on top of it, more and more defenses formed to protect the established territory, and so forth. For us humans to be able to again hear the ?common voice?, all those filters need to be shut down, preferably be dismantled. But for a rock, it is easy.

 

[rosada]

I think what we are coming up against here is the fact that while we'd like to assume our Inner Truth, Inner Feeling, Inner Knowingness is always right, experience proves time and again this is just not the case. We do something with the best of intentions only to find out later the new hat doesn't fit, the job sucks and the prince is a toad. Perhaps 61 is refering to the fact that there is a Universal Energy we all tap into, but it doesn't tell whether one's connection is pure or tainted. Thus you may feel the connection to the hat, but is it you wanting the hat, or the hat wanting you? I suspect there are very few on the planet who can rightfully claim their inner feeling is not influenced by outer considerations.

 

[peace]

I guess it's the best we can do.

So - 61 sounds like...tap into your best guess and take off as many layers of crud as you can and see what you're left with - with the faith and trust that you're going to get fairly close to some good guidance!

 

[bruce]

I'm uncomfortable with 61 having too much to do with feelings, other than a feeling which may connect to 61, such as mentioned above. 61 is more than touchy feely sensitivity. It is what is after everything that isn't isn't.

freakin words any how