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Underlying principles connected to the Yi 14.1.6>32

iams girl

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I know there are fundamental underlying principles in life and all that will mean, if no one is capable of demonstrating even the vaguest underlying principles connected to the Yi, is that the Yi isnt one of those things that wasnt built on any fundamentals
Just a thought to ask Yi itself about it's underlying principles...14.1.6>32.

But, then, if you haven't found Yi to be a connection to underlying principles after 30 years, I wouldn't expect this to change anything for you either and maybe you're right that it's just not for you.

Best wishes whatever your path,

I'am's
 

Trojina

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Just a thought to ask Yi itself about it's underlying principles...14.1.6>32.

But, then, if you haven't found Yi to be a connection to underlying principles after 30 years, I wouldn't expect this to change anything for you either and maybe you're right that it's just not for you.

Best wishes whatever your path,

I'am's
Oh it's 40 years allegedly.


Surely this thread is only a platform for more of the same ?

Belongs in SR ?



This is your own personal answer according to what your ideas of 'principles' actually are. I don't find the notion of underlying principles interesting which is understandable given we have had about 10 days (?) of jukkodave splattering this entire section with talk of 'underlying principles' and 'rational and coherent' so do we really need another thread of the same ?
 

jukkodave

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Just a thought to ask Yi itself about it's underlying principles...14.1.6>32.

But, then, if you haven't found Yi to be a connection to underlying principles after 30 years, I wouldn't expect this to change anything for you either and maybe you're right that it's just not for you.

Best wishes whatever your path,

I'am's
Hi I'am's

I didnt say I hadnt found it, only that I didnt understand it completely. Having a part of the understanding is not the same as saying I dont know it at all.

But how could you ask such a question without knowing that yourself already. If there were no fundamental underlying principles then the answer you get no be indicative of anything at all.

But you dont say what your interpretation of the reading is.
It seems to me that it is saying there are underlying principles, "thereby obeys the benevolent "will of heaven".
Being "conscious" of the difficulties that underlying principles presents, which i think I have elaborated on in my posts.
"blessed by heaven"

Seeing as I doubt that everyone would get exactly the same reading that raises that the reading is pertinent to you, that you already knew that.

But interestingly one could get lots of reading s that might say the same thing, which wouldnt be a surprise if the Yi is a manifestation of underlying principles. How about ...35,5,6> 45.

Best wishes to you also. While it is my path and your path it is also the path of all of us. We are all bound and connected in the findamentals, we are all united in underlying principles.

Have you ever noticed that united and untied are anagrams of each other.

It will be interesting to see what others make of your post.

All the best

Dave
 

jukkodave

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Oh it's 40 years allegedly.


Surely this thread is only a platform for more of the same ?

This is your own personal answer according to what your ideas of 'principles' actually are. I don't find the notion of underlying principles interesting which is understandable given we have had about 10 days (?) of jukkodave splattering this entire section with talk of 'underlying principles' and 'rational and coherent' so do we really need another thread of the same ?
Oh, but why the insinuations and the insults.

Surely this thread, if anyone is taking the Yi seriously, has the potential to be highly relevant.
Perhaps you are annoyd that "the Yi" didnt say, no, no underlying principles, no fundamentals going on here, nothing at all of any significance - other than a collection of made up random things strung together in a random sequence. It is of course one or the other.

Just because you have no interest doesnt mean that the fundamentals and the underlying principles dont exist.

if you dont find the "notion" of underlying principles intersting perhaps you would care to explain why you are posting on threads specific to that or responding tp posts on that very thing as fundamental underlying principles.

Are you perhaps just lloking for the very things that I have been accussed of.

There are known in the wordl of psychology that what we often accuse others of is what we are revealiing about ourselves, projection and transference. Isnt there a quote from the New Testament about taking the log out of our own eye before criticising the speck in anothers eye.

Only the person themselves would know if that would apply.
But why are you posting on something that you have no interest in if not just to get reactions.

That would be a reasonable logical conclusin, perhaps there are others that youwould care to share so tat all can know why you are posting on a topic that holds no interest for you.
 

iams girl

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In my initial post, Dave, I quote you as questioning whether or not Yi is even built on fundamentals, certainly a valid question for someone who takes precautions. Since you further ask that someone demonstrate "even the vaguest underlying principles connected to the Yi," I chose to set an example of how that might be done.

I asked Yi directly what its underlying principles are, not for myself, but for the benefit of all. Personally, I am 100% certain that anyone else's answer, even if different, would simply reinforce the same answer (which I interpret similarly to you), yes, even something like 35.5.6>45. I don't agree that Yi isn't comprehensive enough to have given an "I have no underlying principles" reading as well, but, in my opinion, it did not. However, until you attain enough certainty on your own about the validity of Yi's connection with fundamentals, all the rest is secondary.

That said, you say in your reply "I didnt say I hadnt found it, only that I didnt understand it completely." So, maybe your quote in the first post was not meant to be taken literally, just your way of expressing frustration at not understanding underlying principles well enough to your liking. I can see how frustration could easily be part of the package of such a quest so to speak.

As this topic is becoming less about exploring the ins and outs of divination and more about a pursuit of underlying principles, may I suggest sharing further readings and insights about the subject on the blog section of the site. It is open to back and forth dialogue there as well. I've never used the blog section myself other than making comments and realize it would be another learning hurdle (hopefully intuitive enough), but think your passion for the journey might better resonate with other like-minded individuals there.
 

Trojina

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As this topic is becoming less about exploring the ins and outs of divination and more about a pursuit of underlying principles, may I suggest sharing further readings and insights about the subject on the blog section of the site. It is open to back and forth dialogue there as well. I've never used the blog section myself other than making comments and realize it would be another learning hurdle (hopefully intuitive enough), but think your passion for the journey might better resonate with other like-minded individuals there.

The blog section is for CC members only. It's something we pay to access. It is strange how people aren't clear about what is CC and what are public free forums. [MENTION=10439]iams girl[/MENTION]

I guess that might change after the migration. Hope so as generally people are very unclear about this even when they join. All this time you thought people on the free forums could use the blogs ?
 

Liselle

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I didnt say I hadnt found it, only that I didnt understand it completely.
Dave, no one understands it completely.

That's a truism if ever there was one.

People have been working for thousands of years to chip away at understanding.

Sheesh.
 

Liselle

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For what it's worth, my take so far on I am's Girl's reading (thanks for casting it, I am's) is something like, Yi is an enduring (32) great treasure (14) which helps us avoid what is harmful, and helps us access the protection of heaven?

Or, an underlying principle is to help us form enduring habits (32) so that we can be great(er) treasures?
 
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jukkodave

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Dave, no one understands it completely.

That's a truism if ever there was one.

People have been working for thousands of years to chip away at understanding.

Sheesh.
But that doesnt mean that we cannot understand it enough to be able to differerentiate and use processes of logic and ratonal coherence to be able to differentiate between using the Yi as a a description of the fundamental underlying principles of nature and the ordinances of heaven that the commentaries reference and using it as a method of differentiation just the same as we would any other form of divination to hand, including ones that we had made up ourselves, as they have all been show to work and so be of value to the person using them.

To know of the fundamentals, to recognise the signposts that point us in that direction is rather different than saying that one has reached the end of the journey and knows everything. And not knowing everything is surely not a reason to stop wanting to learn.

It may look as though people have been chipping away for thousands of years, but if that was the case we would have more understanding that we had thousands of years ago and yet we take the opposite view with the Yi and consider that what they knew thousands of years ago is more than we know now.
If we had been succesfull chipping away we would see signs of congruence and agreement, but a look at the history and the present state shows that there is no congruence or agreement on anything that might be considered as understanding of fundamentals.

Dave
 

Liselle

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It may look as though people have been chipping away for thousands of years, but if that was the case we would have more understanding that we had thousands of years ago and yet we take the opposite view with the Yi and consider that what they knew thousands of years ago is more than we know now.
If we had been succesfull chipping away we would see signs of congruence and agreement, but a look at the history and the present state shows that there is no congruence or agreement on anything that might be considered as understanding of fundamentals.
I'm not sure that's true. Just because people try to make use of research and discoveries into the origins doesn't mean knowledge hasn't increased since then. An imperfect analogy might be to governments. In the U.S. we have the Constitution and other writings of the Founding Fathers, and people involved in government, e.g. the Supreme Court, constitutional scholars, etc., are constantly trying to read their minds by studying the documents, and apply them to today's issues. But the fact that they wrote a genius Constitution doesn't necessarily mean they were better at running their version of the country than we are at running ours. (Generally speaking. Please let's not parse that too finely. I'm not talking about Jefferson vs. Trump.)

Similarly with the I Ching? We spend time trying to understand what the authors were trying to say, and how they put the book together, but that doesn't mean the Zhou understood their answers any better than we do.
 

jukkodave

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In my initial post, Dave, I quote you as questioning whether or not Yi is even built on fundamentals, certainly a valid question for someone who takes precautions. Since you further ask that someone demonstrate "even the vaguest underlying principles connected to the Yi," I chose to set an example of how that might be done.
I think you must ahve taken something out of context. Asking as rhgetorical question is not the same as making a statement.
My request for "even the vaguest underlying principles connected to the Yi," has to be in context. Unless one differentiates and declares that differentiation, as to whether the Yi is considered, known, used in terms of underlying principles of nature and ordinances of heaven, or, used just as any form of diviantion might be, ther is no way to determine or evaluate what the person is saying or meaning.

I asked Yi directly what its underlying principles are, not for myself, but for the benefit of all. Personally, I am 100% certain that anyone else's answer, even if different, would simply reinforce the same answer (which I interpret similarly to you), yes, even something like 35.5.6>45. I don't agree that Yi isn't comprehensive enough to have given an "I have no underlying principles" reading as well, but, in my opinion, it did not. However, until you attain enough certainty on your own about the validity of Yi's connection with fundamentals, all the rest is secondary.
I do have enough certaintity. It is the details of how the Yi fits into the picture that is eluding me. I came to the Forum becuae I was doing more research on a lifelong question of if and how 5E fits into Chinese Medicine. Having dicussed that within the Chinese Medical community for nigh on 40 years and being met with no rational, logical or coherent responses by any one in all of that time, I was optimistic that those in the Yi community migh have a different perception and provide insight and rationality that I and others were unable to find. Not only didnt that happen but a whole other area of the Yi opened up before my very eyes, which made it clear that the fundamentals that are present in Chinese Medicine may not be as well understood as they are in the very practical world of Medicine.

Interesting that you found the reading suitable, it was picked at random. I know that there are some that will say nothing is random but that would be a validation of underlying principles with all of the conclusions that differentiation between using the Yi with underlying principles and using it without, entails. I dont think I know the Yi well enough from memory to be able to cast a reading just by picking numbers out of my head. But if a can that would be interesting. Ive just tried it and I cant, the reading made no sense to me, though if I was able to make it fit if I twisted it a bit.

That said, you say in your reply "I didnt say I hadnt found it, only that I didnt understand it completely." So, maybe your quote in the first post was not meant to be taken literally, just your way of expressing frustration at not understanding underlying principles well enough to your liking. I can see how frustration could easily be part of the package of such a quest so to speak.
Not frustrated, it is a part of the process of discovery, how can one ever be anything but delighted to learn more about ones self, life, and the universe. Arent we all on a path of more calrity and understanding, does that ever stop. Personally I hope that I remain open to learning more about life, the universe and myself till the very end.

As this topic is becoming less about exploring the ins and outs of divination and more about a pursuit of underlying principles, may I suggest sharing further readings and insights about the subject on the blog section of the site. It is open to back and forth dialogue there as well. I've never used the blog section myself other than making comments and realize it would be another learning hurdle (hopefully intuitive enough), but think your passion for the journey might better resonate with other like-minded individuals there.
As the thread is titled "underlying principles" I think this thread is a most suitable place to post.
You are possibly right but perhpas the same people are reading the Forum as are on the CC Blog. Not being a part of CC that is hypothetical though.

All the best

Dave
 

jukkodave

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I'm not sure that's true. Just because people try to make use of research and discoveries into the origins doesn't mean knowledge hasn't increased since then. An imperfect analogy might be to governments. In the U.S. we have the Constitution and other writings of the Founding Fathers, and people involved in government, e.g. the Supreme Court, constitutional scholars, etc., are constantly trying to read their minds by studying the documents, and apply them to today's issues. But the fact that they wrote a genius Constitution doesn't necessarily mean they were better at running their version of the country than we are at running ours. (Generally speaking. Please let's not parse that too finely. I'm not talking about Jefferson vs. Trump.)

Similarly with the I Ching? We spend time trying to understand what the authors were trying to say, and how they put the book together, but that doesn't mean the Zhou understood their answers any better than we do.
But then they havent been "chipping away " at anything, so what have they been doing.

I cant see how a comparison with a external politial contrivance has any correlation with the internal fundamantals of life.
I think that we might be in error of we think that research and discoveries can assist us in our personal journey to fulfilment and self consciousness, or whatever one might care to call that process.

The Zhou may not have understood but those that originated the Yi, whenever that was must have known how , why and what it all meant. Unless of course it never meant anything at all.
I have been assuming, just because my experience has convinced me, and there are repeated reference in the Yi to such things as Heaven, Great man, aspects of fundamental natural things, and the Commentarie make reference to such things as underlying principles, ordinances of heaven, that the Yi is based on underlying principles. But the problem is that there is actuall no evidence to support that other than my belief. Yes I know there are underlying principles that connect things together and can see those in many other things, there is a commonality, a cohernece and a rationality about all of those, even if some of the details have been obscured over hundreds or thousands of years, but that does not seem to be the case with the Yi at all.
Perhaps I have been wrong all along, perhpas there are no underlying principles, perhaps that is why there is no logical, rational coherence to it, perhaps that is why 5E doesn fit and the Trigrams dont fit.
But then I know that the fundamentals do fit and so perhaps it is just the interpretations and translations that have obscured the information the Yi contains. and all we have left from the book itself is the method if divination and perhaps that is why no one, including myslef can fins anything to demonstrate the existence of any underlying principles in the Yi. They may well be there, they may be seen in fragments perhaps, but that have become so convoluted and more and more cryptic with various intepretations over the years that we no longer have access to the knowledge of the fundamentals of the Yi.

All the best Dave
 

Liselle

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(to the tune of "Somewhere," from West Side Story)

"There was once a place
Where no one ex-pected us
To solve three-thousand-year-old my-steries
Im-me-diately
...Somewhere"


Dave, in the words of another, more recent tune, "You Need to Calm Down."

Would you try? Please?
 

Liselle

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Actually...is this how we feel? (T. Swift, honorary member of Clarity. Cats are welcome.)

"You are somebody
that I don't know.
But you're taking shots at me
like it's Patrón.
And I'm just like,
'Damn.
It's 7 a.m.'"


(You need to calm down.)
 

iams girl

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My request for "even the vaguest underlying principles connected to the Yi," has to be in context. Unless one differentiates and declares that differentiation, as to whether the Yi is considered, known, used in terms of underlying principles of nature and ordinances of heaven, or, used just as any form of diviantion might be, ther is no way to determine or evaluate what the person is saying or meaning.
Which still leaves the question open as to whether you trust Yi to be connected with underlying principles. Ultimately, it's a personal quest for certainty which no-one can hand to you because it involves personal decisions about the reliability of sources within and without. Maybe you're not happy with what you're finding within or without and that's valid too, so your search goes on...
 

iams girl

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To clarify my own stand, the fact that things like goodness, decency, courtesy, excellence, integrity, etc. even exist is good enough knowledge about the existence of underlying principles for me. The world hungers for the application of these foundational elements, though, and as long as Yi continues to resonate with answers that help me and others in that way, I have no hesitation about its use.

Still, it doesn't hurt to have a mechanic around if things break down, so I am all for knowing how things work. That is, as long as the chopping of wood and carrying of water chores still get done as well.
 

jukkodave

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Which still leaves the question open as to whether you trust Yi to be connected with underlying principles. Ultimately, it's a personal quest for certainty which no-one can hand to you because it involves personal decisions about the reliability of sources within and without. Maybe you're not happy with what you're finding within or without and that's valid too, so your search goes on...

To clarify my own stand, the fact that things like goodness, decency, courtesy, excellence, integrity, etc. even exist is good enough knowledge about the existence of underlying principles for me. The world hungers for the application of these foundational elements, though, and as long as Yi continues to resonate with answers that help me and others in that way, I have no hesitation about its use.

Still, it doesn't hurt to have a mechanic around if things break down, so I am all for knowing how things work. That is, as long as the chopping of wood and carrying of water chores still get done as well.
Hi, therein lies the rub, trust. A rather more appealing way of saying belief, but really annother way of saying that one doesnt know.
So I dont trust or believe one way or the other. I know that there are underlying principles, I have experienced and witnessed those directly and even if I have no way of communicating those directly, the presence, or absence of logic, rationality and coherence, the presence of contradictions, descrepancies, the absence of coherence to the patterns used, suggest that even if the Yi is based on underlying principles what we know and understand of it today may possibly not be.

It is of course a personal quest but it is also a universal quest. The lack of rational coherence in the Yi may be because it isnt there or it may be that it is in such a form that might illuminate the very world of everyones underastanding of how and why the universe and the individual in it works.
It may only appear that there is no rational coherence because the perspctive needs to change and that perspective would reveal understanding that might change everything. That is certainly one possibility. Were it not so then in all likelyhood I would have been thinking, just another form of divination,nothing in the Yi that makes it special, the history, the translations, the interpretations, the methodology, the teachings past and present of no prupose or value at all.
But I obviously dont think that and even though it appears that no one is able to demonstrate or even discuss the possibility that it might all be a figment of our imaginations, a belief structure and the product of seld delusion and the creation of self illusion, knowing that there are underlying principles of nature and ordinances of heaven, means that I have hope that in some way at some time the understanding will come, and perhaps someone will hand it to not just me but to everyone.

Actually I am very happy with what I am finding within, the without being part of the randomness of the world will have happy time and not happy times, but as happiness is not anything to do with external things I am not overly concerned with the presence or lack of external "happiness".

Thank you for clarifying your "stand". I would however point out that those admirable qualities that you reference are no what I am referring to in regard to fundamental underlying principles of nature and the ordinances of heaven.
You have described admirable human qualities but the underlying principles exist regardless of if we live our lives in that way or not. We may perhaps resonate more with the fundamentals when we aspire to integrity and goodness, that would simply be the difference between harmony and disahrmony with ourselves and also with our environment. Underlying principles are not those though.
If I had to say what they are I would use such terms as Qi, Yin and Yang, the 4 elements, what creates movement and change, which there doesnt seem to be a name for in any framework but without which such things as Yin and Yang would be stagnant and there would be no life, even if we have the building blocks of Qi and Yin and Yang, but please any other terms that might describe the same essence(tial) qualities. without that which "moves" them to make them dynamic nothing happens.

The question of if the "mechanic" knows how and what to fix, are they fixing the roots that underpin our problems or are they "fixing the manifestations. In medicine one can treat the symptoms and the illness disappears, for a while, but if one treats the root the illness goes for good.
So it is with the Yi, we can use it to fix the roots or we can use it to fix the symptoms. Rather a large difference. Both have there place. Much of moderm medicine is about fixing the symptoms and in many cases it is all that is needed while the underlying principles of health kick in and restore the natural harmony, in other cases it only treats the symptoms and as soon as the medication is stopped the illness is revealed to still be there. But most people ignore those facts and believe in the power of modern medicine. Context and differentiation are everything. The contradictions and discreapancies in modern medicine have to be ignored, when one looks a the facts, so that there is knowledge and understanding then one sees that parts of modern medicine are incredible, other parts not so good but comparable with other treatments, and some parts dont work at all aother than hiding the symptoms for a while. But most of us still believe it works.

All the best

Dave
 

iams girl

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I disagree that humans are born with innate "admirable qualities" such as those mentioned, however I do agree that, yes, we resonate more with the fundamentals when we choose, for example, to draw integrity and goodness into our lives.

Yi works well enough for my purposes while your mandate appears more precision-oriented related to Yi's workings. With your advice from Yi being to keep searching, I'd have to agree there is something yet for you find. Of course, as you've said in many ways, it might include that, for you, it's an old, broken down tool not worth using. Or, the discovery of a Yi 2.0. Or, something in between even, like it works for certain things for you and not others.
 

jukkodave

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I disagree that humans are born with innate "admirable qualities" such as those mentioned, however I do agree that, yes, we resonate more with the fundamentals when we choose, for example, to draw integrity and goodness into our lives.

Yi works well enough for my purposes while your mandate appears more precision-oriented related to Yi's workings. With your advice from Yi being to keep searching, I'd have to agree there is something yet for you find. Of course, as you've said in many ways, it might include that, for you, it's an old, broken down tool not worth using. Or, the discovery of a Yi 2.0. Or, something in between even, like it works for certain things for you and not others.

Hi I'am's

Just to make it clear, the advice from the Yi was to keep posting on the Forum. in the same way I had been doing. The searching goes on regardless.

Dont think that I said we are "born" with innate admirable qualities, though we may be born with something that aspires to them.

I am puzzled as to why there seems to be the idea that I have, as you put it, a mandate.
All I really know is that there are underlying principles. Having experienced them first hand it would be rather strange to deny them or even mention them.
What puzzles me is that while those underlying fundamentals can be observed in many other modalities, Chinese Medicine, Astrology, Tarot for example, the rational coherence that is observed in those modalities is not readily obserable in the Yi.
Given that it is possible to construct a method of divination, without the reliance on any fundamentals at all, that work just as well as the Yi for the type and range of questions that any form of divination is capable of answering, it is possible that the Yi does not have any fundamental underlying principles, and that is why they cannot be observed. I dont think that is the case. But that would mean that if they cannot be observed, and the many contradictions and inconsistencies remain unresolved, that while the fundamentals exist that we do not yet know them, with the likleyhood that the translations and the interpretations, the knowledge and understanding that we think we have of the Yi is simply wrong. Not knowing the fundamentals, in terms of what we understand about the Yi and how we use the Yi, would be the same in any practical sense as if they never existed, as the Yi is obviously not an intelligent, conscious entity in its own right.
That wouldnt detract from the power of the Yi as a method of divination, that is a truly wonderful and powerful tool in its own right, but it would change much of the surrounding "information" that is attached to the Yi.
So I dont have a mandate, unless anyone would consider it a amndate to continue asking questions, pointing out the contradictions and inconsistencies, pointing out the lack of logical, rational, and coherent explanations, pointing out that the history, and a bit of logic, point to othere possibilities which make a lot of sense and should surely be worth considering if we are concerned with the truth rather than just believing in something because that is easier to do.
So I dont think that its an old boken down tool, it might be doing just as it ever was meant to do, as there may be nothing more to it than just another form of divination, with no special fundamental underlying principles to discover in the pages of the book, or it might be just the opposite and we just dont know how to access or recognise it properly.
One point I am trying to get across is the difference between the two criteria. If the Yi is buit on fundamentals, then the history, the translations, the intepretations mean something. If the Yi isnt built on fundamentals then all the interpretations, translations, all the academic and scholarly considerations would just be irrelevant trappings, as it wouldnt matter what the Yi was or said,because any form of divination would work just as well. That wouldnt detract from what we are able to use the Yi for but it would make much if not all of the things that we consider part of the Yi not relevant.

The discovery of a Yi 2.0. Interesting, but then that would prove that Yi 1.0 was only ever a form of divination and not anything special and never had any fundamental underlying principles, probably. So lets hope that we dont find one. That really would create confusions.

The relevant thing about the Yi working for certain things for one person and not for others, is that if there are fundamental underlying principles then it works for all and only if it wasnt built on underlying priniples and was just another form of divination would it be matter of individuals and their beliefs.

All the best

Dave
 

svenrus

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Interesting to see Alfred Huangs explanation of the ancient ideograph:


AH1.jpg

AH2.jpg

I've tried to make the pics as large as readable possible. Eventually download and open in photowiever and enlarge there.....
 

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svenrus

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Thank You so much Harmen. Just saw that LiSe explains nearly the same:

https://www.yijing.nl/hex-stories/14.html

(Alfred Huang, grown up in chinese traditions and a chinese himself, must have had his reasons for chosing Moon as meaning for the ideograph ?)
 

hmesker

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(Alfred Huang, grown up in chinese traditions and a chinese himself, must have had his reasons for chosing Moon as meaning for the ideograph ?)
That or it is just ignorance. It happens to the best.
 

Liselle

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Svenrus, thank you for posting, and thank you, Harmen, for replying to fix things!

I'll preface this by repeating what I once said to Freedda, that people (/dumb-dumbs) like me aren't anyone's target audience when it comes to these discussions...

That being said, Harmen, that first page, the humanum.arts one, looks blank to me when it comes up. There's stuff at the top, and stuff in the left sidebar, but the whole center of the page is blank. Then again, I've never been to that site, so I don't know what it's supposed to look like.

Harmen, if you have time, could you say any more about all this? What about Huang's resulting explanation, what he says about how 14 changed from "the inappropriateness of possession" to simply "possess"?

Should any of that change by knowing that you contains rou (meat) and not yue (moon)?

What do you say about what 14 means? (I do realize, as far as I can tell, that you haven't actually gotten to 14 yet.)
 

my_key

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To be clear at the beginning, this response is not aimed at jukkodave it's just an observation uses a quote from one of his posts that starts the ball of my thoughts rolling.

So I dont have a mandate, unless anyone would consider it a amndate to continue asking questions, pointing out the contradictions and inconsistencies, pointing out the lack of logical, rational, and coherent explanations, pointing out that the history, and a bit of logic, point to othere possibilities which make a lot of sense and should surely be worth considering if we are concerned with the truth rather than just believing in something because that is easier to do.
Yep, that could be the mandate. It's always good to be curious to aid our own expansion.
I have noticed in this thread comments on 'understanding' and 'knowing' and there is a difference between the two. This may be adding to some of the confusion and crossed wires either within or between us.

Understanding relates to having a level of comprehension about a matter. Knowing is a completely different matter it can be defined as
a) showing or suggesting that one has knowledge or awareness that is secret or known to only a few people.
b) something done in full awareness or consciousness
c) the state of being aware or informed.

For me understanding is a function that is connected to the head ( brain and thinking) and knowing is connected to the body (sensing and feeling - perception and consciousness).

For example, I am bodily aware that my feet stay stuck to the ground and I can see that other things stay stuck to the ground as well however I do not understand in my brain fully the underlying principles of what is doing that. I have a comprehension that it is something to do with a thing called gravity and I'm happy at this time with how much I understand about gravity and how it works. I do not now actively seek to understand the underlying principles more than I comprehend now. But I know gravity functions.

My mandate could be that I can accept things when my mind has been sated and when that aligns with what I experience in my body.

With respect to Yi divination, the level of research I have done into it's machinations and it's origins have answered the questions I had - my mind is satisfied, if you like - and I am at a place for me where the knowing is enough. That doesn't mean I do not remain curious, which is where threads such as this are helpful in avoiding complacency. Thank you jukkodave for your deep questioning. Because you are doing this work for you, it's important that you understand that you are doing it for me too. Everyone has a different relationship with the Yi, and that is as it should be.

Over the years I have learnt to trust gravity, it never lets me down :). Sometimes, I've ignored it, or forgotten it is there, and this has led to some painful outcomes but it always does what it says on the tin. Similarly, I'm able to trust my relationship with the Yi, it too does what it says on the tin. As long as I stir in a bit of awareness and consciousnessas as part of my rituals, then I have a good chance of reaching a level of understanding about the message that I can trust. I understand fully that what I sense or feel from a Yi consultation balanced with some left brain guidance is likely to give me a clear enough message that will provide beneficial insights. The art of painting any picture is to know when to call the painting complete and not to overwork it.

Others may have a different perspectives.

Good Luck
 
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hmesker

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That being said, Harmen, that first page, the humanum.arts one, looks blank to me when it comes up. There's stuff at the top, and stuff in the left sidebar, but the whole center of the page is blank. Then again, I've never been to that site, so I don't know what it's supposed to look like.
Not blank, that's for sure. I have no clue why the site isn't showing up as is should.

Harmen, if you have time, could you say any more about all this? What about Huang's resulting explanation, what he says about how 14 changed from "the inappropriateness of possession" to simply "possess"?

Should any of that change by knowing that you contains rou (meat) and not yue (moon)?
What Huang writes shows a very creative and imaginative mind but it has absolutely nothing to do with the earliest meaning of you, especially because he based his story on a false explanation of the etymology. But similar creative reasoning can be found on that site that you can't open - it says that you means 'possession' because in the past not many people could eat meat, so the ideogram of 'hand' + 'meat' was used to signify 'possession'. We will never know for sure if this is the actual reason for the composition of the character.

What do you say about what 14 means? (I do realize, as far as I can tell, that you haven't actually gotten to 14 yet.)
Yep, I'm gradually working my way through 10 now so everything I say about 14 at this point is preliminary. First, since the name of the hexagram does not occur in the line texts it is difficult to find its meaning in the context of the Zhouyi. I'm not even sure if you should see the name as a general theme for the whole hexagram.

The name does occur at H16.4:

由豫。大有得。勿疑。朋盍簪。

...but I'm not yet sure how to read that. Hilary says 'Great possessions gained' and although that follows the Chinese sentence nicely it does not seem right to me because to my knowledge the verb was not put at the end of the sentence. Wilhelm translates 大有得 as 'He achieves great things' but that doesn't sound right to me either - in order to say that we would have to change the sentence to a standard Subject-Verb-Object structure (with the subject missing but being implied): 得大有 '(he) obtains/achieves great things'. In the sentence of H16.4 得, the verb is at the end which changes the meaning. If we keep the standard SVO pattern then 大 is the subject, 有 is the verb, and 得 the object: '(the) great will have achievement' or something like that. In other texts where 有得 is used there is always someone who 'does' 有得, in other words 有得 needs a subject, like in the Analects:

子曰:「文,莫吾猶人也。躬行君子,則吾未之有得。」
The Master said, "In letters I am perhaps equal to other men, but the character of the superior man, carrying out in his conduct what he professes, is what I have not yet attained to."
(tr. James Legge https://ctext.org/analects/shu-er?searchu=有得&searchmode=showall#result)

Or in the Xunzi:

易者,以一易一,人曰:無得亦無喪也,以一易兩,人曰:無喪而有得也。
Of a trader who exchanges one for one, people say that there was no gain and no loss. Of exhanging one for two, people will say there was no loss but rather gain.
(tr. John Knoblock, Xunzi, Vol. III, p. 137)

So when it comes to the sentence 大有得 in H16.4 I'm inclined to read it as something like 'great (men) will have achievements.' That 大有 can refer to great achievements, great deeds can be seen in Mencius:

故將大有為之君,必有所不召之臣。
Therefore a prince who is to accomplish great deeds will certainly have ministers whom he does not call to go to him.
(tr. James Legge https://ctext.org/mengzi/gong-sun-chou-ii?searchu=大有&searchmode=showall#result)

And if I use that to find the meaning of the name of H14, as a general meaning for the complete hexagram, I would translate it as 'great achievements'.
 

Freedda

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... so everything I say about 14 at this point is preliminary.

The name does occur at H16.4: 由豫。大有得。勿疑。朋盍簪。

...

And if I use that to find the meaning of the name of H14, as a general meaning for the complete hexagram, I would translate it as 'great achievements'.
Hello Harmen, et al. You mention 16.4 a few times, but don't you mean 14.6? And more generally, that the context of both lines 14.1 and 14.6 is about 'great achievements'?

Best, D.
 

hmesker

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Hello Harmen, et al. You mention 16.4 a few times, but don't you mean 14.6?
Hmmm, no, I do mean H16.4. 大有 occurs at H16.4, not H14.6.

And more generally, that the context of both lines 14.1 and 14.6 is about 'great achievements'?
Might be. Just as 14.2. Or 14.3, 14.4, 14.5.
 

Liselle

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Harmen, thank you for digging into this. When I asked, I didn't know it would be so complicated.

Freedda, I think Harmen's using 16.4 as a way to talk about 14, because 14's name is found in 16.4, but not in the lines of 14 itself.

Yep, I'm gradually working my way through 10 now so everything I say about 14 at this point is preliminary. First, since the name of the hexagram does not occur in the line texts it is difficult to find its meaning in the context of the Zhouyi. I'm not even sure if you should see the name as a general theme for the whole hexagram.

The name does occur at H16.4:
 

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