Very Confusing

[shefa]

I am developing a physical relationship with a man but he doesn't really like to kiss. I asked what is the best approach to take with him and get 2 unchanging. Then, I asked what about me talking to him on this issue and get 45 unchanging, Lastly, I asked why he doesn't want to kiss and get 31 unchanging. None of these are expected answers. Any clue?

 

[ben_s]

Hi Shefa.

Hexagram 2 is the ultimate of Yin energy. The many meanings of Yin include female, receptive, organizing how things are related to each other in space.

What does this mean to your approach to him? I don't know your situation personally, so I will ponder a bit about how these Yin principles might apply. Let me know whether or not I'm on track!

First, are you comfortable with your being feminine, providing a contrast to his masculine energy - rather than being just like him? Is his time with a woman different enough from "hanging out with the guys" so it might occur to him to kiss you?

Second, are you concerned in the relationship about being receptive to his ideas, goals, and preferences, rather than just pushing for your own way?

Yet at the same time, when it comes to the relationship, might it be appropriate to take the lead in inviting more emotional closeness? I think 45 has the answer, and I'll get to that in a moment.

2 can also be a time of being alone in the dark - not painfully alone, but taking time for one's self to rest, reflect and prepare for the coming season. Does he need some time apart from you? Or could you let the relationship be a place of restoration for his spirit? Could you give him an opportunity to rest and reflect on his day, helping him have "quiet time" that is a safe place for a change of pace or for making new plans?

How will things change over time? At its best, you continue to embody # 2 Yin energy.

In 45, the waters gather together to form the lake. The waters do not have to be pushed, but naturally follow the contours of the land. This is effortless, once the land has a downhill slope. In human interaction, someone has to take the lead - to make that slope so that the waters can start flowing together. "It furthers one to undertake something." This one seems simple enough to me: If you want a conversation, start it!

What will happen after that? If you want to keep the conversation going, keep it going! He is open to a conversation, but since you want a conversation about your ideas, it's up to you to make it happen!

31 also has a picture of a lake. But in this case, the lake is already established, and it's located up on the mountain. "A mountain with a lake on its summit is stimulated by the moisture from the lake." The traditional interpretation applies this to the attraction between the sexes, with the flowing energy of the woman being valuable to the man, who is inspired to wooing and courtship!

Does he realize that you would like to be romantic? Does he get to come up with the idea himself? Can he be more inspired by you? Can you let his nature be the "mountain" of the budding relationship?

What happens in the future? If you continue to be the lake of inspiration, he will continue to be the mountain that finds you stimulating!

I think this can all be simplified. Tell him, "Hey Babe, I'd love to be romantic with you but sometimes I need you to take the initiative and give me a kiss! And let me know what I can do for you, big guy!" And don't just mention this once!

 

[willowfox]

I asked what is the best approach to take with him and get 2 unchanging.

This is about following his lead, and not trying to force the pace yourself, it is a passive hex as far as action is concerned.


Then, I asked what about me talking to him on this issue and get 45 unchanging,

Yes, get together and have a careful chat on the subject, you cannot work as a team if you have issues clouding the relationship.


Lastly, I asked why he doesn't want to kiss and get 31 Perhaps he feels that in the early stages of a relationship one holds hands but does not go any further.

 

[shefa]

Hi Ben. What you write about Hex 2 is beautiful indeed and gives me so much to think about. Thank you for making my situation your first post here. I believe much of what you wrote would be appropriate in my situation, and as WF says, it's not so much about action at this time, but there is a receptive approach that still requires thoughtfulness. You have given me some excellent ways to view this approach.

The most challenging answer in this series for me was 31 unchanging. We have done more than hold hands WF, we just skipped the kissing part. I am having a difficult time making sense of 31 being the answer to the reason he doesn't want to kiss. Who doesn't want to kiss, especially when attracted to someone? Or, could 31 be more about me than him?

 

[ben_s]

I'm glad to help, Shefa. :bows:

"We have done more than hold hands, we just skipped the kissing part."

Wasn't that a song by Elvis?

"Or, could 31 be more about me than him?"

To me, 31 is about both sides of a relationship.

Here are some ideas for follow up questions:
- How do I apply the mountain and lake image of 31 in my life
- What is best for the physical side of this relationship
- What does kissing mean to the other person (of course, maybe asking him directly would work too!)

 

[Tohpol]

we just skipped the kissing part. I am having a difficult time making sense of 31 being the answer to the reason he doesn't want to kiss. Who doesn't want to kiss, especially when attracted to someone? Or, could 31 be more about me than him?

"Skipped the kissing part"???

I think that when there is a avoidance of kissing it's a warning sign for intimacy issues. Has he been hurt before? More than likely. I think you are quite right to be concerned about this, though it doesn't mean anything dire.

I don't know the history but I agree with others - definitely something to gently talk about. 31 can also be just as much about repulsion as it can be about attraction... So there could be some basic fear involved in opening himself fully to this new relationship and letting go.

Anyhow, good luck Shefa.

Topal

 

[shefa]

Yes, intimacy issues is what I was thinking also. I did not realize that 31 could be about repulsion. Yikes. Can you or anyone talk about this further? And if 31 is about both sides of a relationship, not sure what says about me or my role in this.

 

[Trojina]

I am developing a physical relationship with a man but he doesn't really like to kiss. I asked what is the best approach to take with him and get 2 unchanging. Then, I asked what about me talking to him on this issue and get 45 unchanging, Lastly, I asked why he doesn't want to kiss and get 31 unchanging. None of these are expected answers. Any clue?

I think your answers merely tell you this is how it is. You say he doesn't like to kiss and ask the best approach and get hex 2. Within the question theres an assumption that you can change the fact that he doesn't like to kiss but to me hex 2 here says that he doesn't like to kiss is how it is - accept that. I don't think it means you must be more receptive to make him want to kiss you, cos the whole point of hex 2 is you are not setting out to do anything other than accept things as they are. If you talk about it you will at least be drawing together on this so 45 is clear and seems a good option. As for why he doesn't want to kiss - well if 31 is about what one likes or deosn't seems pretty clear he doesn't like to kiss so you've gone full circle.

 

[fkegan]

Not wanting to kiss when he can do so much more?

I am developing a physical relationship with a man but he doesn't really like to kiss. I asked what is the best approach to take with him and get 2 unchanging. Then, I asked what about me talking to him on this issue and get 45 unchanging, Lastly, I asked why he doesn't want to kiss and get 31 unchanging. None of these are expected answers. Any clue?

There are interesting technical hexagram considerations to each of your three oracles with no moving lines at all in any of them. That generally indicates that the process of the hexagram as a whole itself is all there is.

I would in this case start with hexagram 31 answer to why doesn't he want to kiss?
Hexagram 31 is the first hexagram of the second half of the Yi, it describes the entire set of 10 hexagrams 31-40 which includes hex 32, marriage routine, hex 37 the family as social structure...etc. Basically, this is the set of hexagrams about male-female relations and this first one, hex 31 is about courtship or the fundamental sexual desire which is channeled to produce everything else.

Without an Yi oracle, the general statement of folks about why a male would prefer to go much farther than to spend time kissing, would be that he isn't romantically engaged just sexually attracted. The oracles you cast don't seem to contradict that opinion. Going back through the set of 3, hex 31 says he doesn't want to kiss since he is more into sex than romance. Hex 45 also without moving lines about talking to him about kissing indicates that the only focus (Yang) is in the 4th and 5th line places, the feelings in the heart and the willfulness of the mind, with everything else including passion (line 3), structure (line 2), roots into prior conditions or the transition on to something NEXT all being ignored background and staying in the background.

Your first oracle then is hex 2, all Yin lines without any moving lines on the best approach with him. In Taoist perspective, hex 2 is also a zero, a statement of nothingness or in other perspectives, a situation with no active focus just background. It is also the hexagram of local topography or the lay of the land as it is and as its elevation controls the flow of rainfall.

Overall, I would suggest you consider what it is that you consider important in this relationship. If kissing is important, the traditional advice of making romantic kissing a necessary preliminary to doing anything more should be effective, at least in making clear his inclinations and disinclinations to kissing.

If the physical relationship is more important than the kissing, then consider the notion that trying to change the momentum of a relationship while it is rolling along is difficult, and look for kissing in your next relationship.

There is a book published by a nice man, titled "He just isn't that into you"

Good Luck,
Frank

 

[shefa]

At least I can always count on you all to share your direct opinions! But sometimes the limitations of this anonymous forum gets in the way of real communication. It's easy to make too many assumptions and forget to ask enough questions. It's also easy not to share enough details to make the requests for support meaningful.

To Trojan: Thank you for your insights and please know when I asked about the best approach to take with him it was a general question about the best overall approach. I wasn't asking about this issue specifically. I still believe Ben's counsel and insights into hexagram 2 and how receptivity can apply within a relationship is excellent advice for me to follow. Also, please know that I have no interest to reshape this man. I only seek insight into understanding an interpersonal circumstance that is new for me. I have already spoke to him about this issue and we will continue to talk. There is no avoidance here.

To Frank: I think it's interesting 31 represents and relates to 32 and 37 - all family relationship hexagrams. I had not thought of this. How does this follow the idea that my readings support his sexual-only interest? I do understand that an important point of 31 is "opposites coming together." That is attraction. Also, we have not gone "much farther" than holding hands just a little farther. There is definite sexual attraction between us but there is also a foundation of more as we have known each other a long time.

 

[fkegan]

Long term slow relationships have their own rhythm

The most challenging answer in this series for me was 31 unchanging. We have done more than hold hands WF, we just skipped the kissing part. I am having a difficult time making sense of 31 being the answer to the reason he doesn't want to kiss. Who doesn't want to kiss, especially when attracted to someone? Or, could 31 be more about me than him?

Hex 31 is about fundamental male-female attraction and how a person may respond to this influence as it is expressed in the various moving lines seen as body parts from toes to head. With no moving lines the influence isn't showing anywhere so it is deep inside.
In relationship if the parties are not enjoying talking all the time about everything, not enjoying kissing, the question arises what is going on? I misinterpreted your comment above about doing more than hold hands, skipping the kissing.

If you have known each other a long time,and still are not comfortable talking or doing much more, perhaps the traditional view of hexagram 2 would be helpful---trying to lead goes astray, following finds guidance just be there and let things unfold from their own process without input from you other than being there interested.

Frank

 

[shefa]

Hi Frank. It is not about being comfortable or uncomfortable. We are in transition and it is a process. We are talking. I also like to let things take their time, and do not feel the need to discuss everything all at once. I also need time to get in touch with my own feelings and desires. I am using the Yi to help me with this process. Of course I know in the end it will all be about what happens between us.

I am curious to know more about this approach of yours regarding the lines, If there are no moving lines, as in the case of 31, you describe the influence as being deep within. Would you be willing to talk more about this? You also had some interesting comments about 45 unchanging and I would like to learn more from you about this because I do not understand this approach. Does the meaning of the hexagram change without the lines? Do you think it means something that all three of these questions are without moving lines?

 

[shefa]

I asked a followup question: Tell me more to help me understand the resistance to kissing? I got 39.5 to 15. This sounds like things are going to work themselves out, eh?

 

[fkegan]

oracle hexagram without moving lines.

Hi Frank.
I am curious to know more about this approach of yours regarding the lines, If there are no moving lines, as in the case of 31, you describe the influence as being deep within. Would you be willing to talk more about this? You also had some interesting comments about 45 unchanging and I would like to learn more from you about this because I do not understand this approach. Does the meaning of the hexagram change without the lines? Do you think it means something that all three of these questions are without moving lines?

Hexagrams have a natural sequence from first line to top or final line. When there are moving lines a change in the underlying process is occurring that turns the natural process from its 6th stages in order toward a whole new process.

Oracles without moving lines are all about the hexagram as a whole and about all 6 of the stages represented by the line judgments. They are similar to an oracle with all 6 lines moving, only they have for their resultant hexagram that same hexagram again.

Hexagram 31 in its moving line commentary speaks about the influence or attraction being shown through the body part associated with that line stage. No moving lines, no body parts expressing the feelings. Feelings not being expressed remain inside.

As a technical matter the increasing intensity of romantic 'influence' feelings is what hexagram 39 is all about. Which I notice is the oracle you mention next--an oracle with a moving line.

The meaning of the hexagrams from just the Yang lines in the 6-place matrix is described on my Flux Tome page of my website www.stars-n-dice.com the specific URL is in my signature.

Frank

 

[shefa]

"No moving lines, no body parts expressing the feelings." Are you suggesting this implies there are no feelings, or just that they are being held in check? I often think of hex 52 for the latter. I am interested to learn more about, the "technical matter" you mention with 39. LiSe calls this "cold feet" How would you interpret the line in my situation? I will take a look at your website also. Sounds interesting.

 

[fkegan]

hex 39.5 the appreciation of sexual tension

"No moving lines, no body parts expressing the feelings." Are you suggesting this implies there are no feelings, or just that they are being held in check? I often think of hex 52 for the latter. I am interested to learn more about, the "technical matter" you mention with 39. LiSe calls this "cold feet" How would you interpret the line in my situation? I will take a look at your website also. Sounds interesting.

Hi Shefa,
Yes, feelings that do not manifest outwardly are held inwardly. Hex 52 is all about keeping still, again with the moving lines representing the body parts being kept from moving. It is a mountain range that just stands there without moving. Hex 31 is all about romantic feelings not mountains. Without moving lines hex 31, with open Yin lines in the first and top place, is all happening inside without outward expression.

Hex 39 is about a snow covered high mountain. This would be a place to get cold feet. I call it Valley Forge, the ultimate cold feet experience. However, that is just one of the many images for the hexagram. The technical matter of hex 39 in the decad set of the family is that it is the 9th or penultimate hexagram. Hex 40 is the completion, Release of the sexual energy starting in the romantic attraction of hex 31. This is the step before, the hexagram of maximum potential energy or sexual tension. Hex 36.5 is the expression and exhaustion of that energy through the fifth stage, the mind or overall organization while the 6th line, the transition on to the Next situation remains part of the background rather than a focus.

In terms of your situation it seems to indicate that there is a difference in where the two of you wish the relationship to go, so I would not expect it to resolve itself by itself. Also, hex 39 in terms of Obstruction is all about coming to a mountain pass closed by winter snow. Snow on top of a high mountain is a lot of high energy water, just frozen now so that it isn't going anywhere. The hexagram is all about how to focus upon the long term goal while dealing with the current situation which is not accessible directly.

As to checking out my site, start with the web page Flux Tome (I Ching in American terms) the link is in my signature. From there you can go lots of places (the site is currently over 450 pages of MS Word text).

In terms of your thread: Very confusing, this is a time to work out what is going on in you and with you without expecting things to resolve quickly. Anything may happen, but turning this very confusing state into your eventual (and currently blocked ultimate achievement) will be a major project for you. There is a thread on hex 39 itself: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=66720#post66720.

Frank

 

[shefa]

Ok, but what about 39.5 which says: "In the midst of the greatest obstruction friends come?

 

[Tony_L]

I am developing a physical relationship with a man but he doesn't really like to kiss. I asked what is the best approach to take with him and get 2 unchanging. Then, I asked what about me talking to him on this issue and get 45 unchanging, Lastly, I asked why he doesn't want to kiss and get 31 unchanging. None of these are expected answers. Any clue?

Just a few additional thoughts to those already posted by others:

Your best approach to take with him: 2, Act like a mare and follow his lead. Find friends in the southwest.

What about talking to him? 45, gather your thoughts ahead of time. Think things through. Make sure you are ready for whatever comes your way.

Why doesn't he want to kiss? 31: Wilhelm says "By its persistent, quiet influence, the lower, rigid trigram stimulates the upper, weak trigram, which responds to this stimulation cheerfully and joyously." He thinks that sexual intercourse is sufficient. Something is amiss here because 31 refers to each lover mutually pleasing the other. The fact that he does not like to kiss and you do indicates that he is not acting like the two trigrams in 31. If you do "45" and carefully prepare before you bring up this issue with him, you will have a better understanding and be able to make a decision about whether you want to continue with the relationship.

Best wishes,

Tony

 

[shefa]

Hi Tony. Yes, you understand why I have had a difficult time understanding 31 as the answer to my question. I am trusting that 39.5 tells me things will work out just when they seem the worst, and we are in communication and shifts are occurring.

 

[Tony_L]

I asked a followup question: Tell me more to help me understand the resistance to kissing? I got 39.5 to 15. This sounds like things are going to work themselves out, eh?

39: Climbing a mountain and confronting a stream that's hard to cross.
39.5: In the midst of this obstacle, friends come to assist. (Maybe the other members of this forum)
15: Relating hexagram - Be modest. Don't see the problem as bigger than it really is. Put things in perspective.

Your question is a bit ambiguous. Are you asking what can you do to understand? or What are the reasons that he resists kissing?

The responses have to be read in the context of whether you are asking about yourself or about him. If you, then you need to step back and achieve a stance of "modesty".
If him, then maybe he has issues about modesty. For example, was he brought up in a home that discouraged open displays of affection, or that separated sex from love, etc.?

Tony

 

[shefa]

Wow, it turns out that he was just nervous about us starting a relationship, and he has very strong feelings for me. He has been hurt in the past, which I already knew, and he wanted to be sure he was ready to dive in again before things got too passionate with us. He was trying to protect both of us, I guess. We are now on a good course forward as a couple and I thank everyone for all your help as I sorted through these issues for myself. I believe it helped me have a better discussion with him and helped create the best possible outcome between us. When I just asked for a picture of us now, I got 50 unchanging, and I think this describes well the slow cooking we are doing together. It feels great!