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lightofdarkness

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The ROOTS of the category of water in the universal IC is in a generic sense of contractive bounding, to enclose 'something', to use a boundary of some form and so differentiate this from that with a core focus on keeping something 'in/out' and that covers socialisation perspectives - maintaining the current dogma, educating those in that dogma. defending that dogma. The core hexagram pairs with water as the base trigram and so setting the context in which the top can operate are:

07 - unforming
04 - socialising (masking)

29 - controlling (containing)
59 - dispelling (make things 'clear')

40 - relaxed structuring (tension releasing)
64 - delaying closure (mis-sequencing)

47 - enclosing
06 - compromising (meeting half-way; interpreted as 'conflict' with a legal emphasis)

ALL of these can be interpreted negatively or positively - e.g. 47 is treated by Wilhelm with a negative aire but there is also a cooperative, positive aire in that the enclosure forces the roots of a tree to go deep and so integrate with the context - in the perspective of the IC's focus on change this can be *interpreted* as 'negative' in that it goes against change. In the above pairs, the first hexagram is unconditional in its manner, the second is conditional.

All have a sense of containment/control as a 'fundamental' element.

Due to the OCTET of water reflecting the overall dynamics of the binary ordering, so we can pair things in the form of POTENTIAL/ACTUAL dynamics or as BALANCED/EXAGGERATED expressions:

07 - 06 (balanced - exaggerated)
04 - 47 -- e.g. we 'over-mask' to the extent of causing 'tension' in the one enclosed
29 - 64
59 - 40

The PAIRS themselves form into quartets of meaning ((07,04),(29,59) Vs (40,64),(47,06)) and so on. (e.g. more pairs such as 40,64 vs 47,06 - meaning in meaning in meaning - all due to the method of derivation)

EACH can be XOR-ed with any other to bring out its expressiveness THROUGH that other, all made by analogy to some other hexagram. All of thes methods bring out finer details of structure due simply to the method used to create these structures - recursion of yin/yang that ensures all is linked together - as such there is no need for analogies outside of the 'box' since all analogies can be made within the box - if you know what is going on ;-) (and there is LOTS more going on here in that EACH pair can form into a sequence of 64 that serve as analogies/metaphors for describing a 'logic of relationships' etc etc)

Chris.
 

martin

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Much like the moon (and the fourth house/sign) in astrology the water trigram seems to relate to creating/defending a territory or 'home'.
So there is an element of bounding in it and in general that would be contractive bounding, with an emphasis on defense and protection. The moon can also be expansive though and perhaps the same is true for the water trigram in some cases (hexagram 40?).
I think there are many other similarities between the moon and the water trigram. Both are sensitive, formless, unstable, instinctive and "deep" or at least away from the surface (the moon is oriented toward the past, memories).
29 seems to me more a lack of control (unstable conditions) than control, although this could of course motivate efforts to control (or to protect or hide).
I'm not sure about 6 and compromising. As I see it 010 is simply no match for 111. Even a "deal" may not be possible, because 111 has all the power and will not grant a deal.
When I encounter hexagram 3 there are usually mother symbols around, even if it is only a big Boeing that arrives too late. Oldest son (100) + dominant mother (010) - I think of it as the Oedipus complex hexagram.
 

martin

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Hex 4 is in my mind the reality principle hexagram.
The implicit advice is "accept the rules or don't play the game".
 

martin

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Forgot to say why. 010 is the child (moon) and 001 the father, the representative of reality "out there".
That's "why".
 

lightofdarkness

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Hi Martin,

I think 'difficult beginnings' for 03 is appropriate given your associations! ;-)

In analysis one also needs to consider details outside of the octet.

For example, in the water octet 6 'opposes' 36 that is on the fire octet. In 36 the focus is on being uncompromising (there is no choice about hidding the light). In 6 even the traditional text focuses on emphasising a meeting 'half way', no less, no more. The ERANOS text is:

""SUNG : dispute, plead in court, contend before a ruler, demand justice; wrangles, quarrels, litigation. The ideogram: words and public, public disputation."

The water trigram in the base position emphasises containment, not control. Containment doubled is control where we have water in the top position (as in 29).

The focus on litigation means a 'conflict' but in a contained situation, a 'battle' of compromise which is what most disputes focus on in yin-based perspectives - the core focus on coexisting with others is to neutralise 'extremes' (even if that means calling in the army - the focus is on protection and a RESPONSE).

The binary dynamics of the octet are reflected in the POTENTIALS of 7 being ACTUALISED in the expression of 6.

In hex 06, 111 in the upper position is 'singlemindedness' and overall focused on a competitive perspective. Thus for 06 the generic 'flow' from bottom to top with 'with containment comes singlemindedness', also interpretable as 'FROM containment comes singlemindedness'.

If we apply 27 to this by XOR-ing, so the skeletal form of 06 is described by analogy to 58 and so a focus on 'intensity in expression' as a core element of 06 - a theme common in law courts! ;-)

When 111 is operating in hexagrams with a yin base, the replacement nature of yang is curbed to be a focus on neutralising. We can see this when we map out the 111 topped hexgrams with yin base:

12, 33, 06, 44

All of these favour neutralising with the most replacement oriented being 44 and there the focus is on 'soft' replacement in the form of seducing someone to 'come over' to the 'dark' (or 'light'!) side.

Note we can form an octet out of yang tops to give us:

12, 33, 06, 44, 25, 13, 10, 01

We can apply the SAME method of analysis to this octet as with water with 12 being the 'balanced' form and 01 the extreme, exaggerated' form. And so pairs of:

12, 33
06, 44
25, 13
10, 01

as well as 'opposites' (read balanced-exaggerated) of:

12 - 01
33 - 10
06 - 13
44 - 25 (and so in 44 we are 'gentle' in expressing ourselves, or more so 'meandering' in or persuasion/seduction - we look for feedback to exploit) whilst in 25 we stand up strong and assert regardless of consequences etc - we dont care about feedback, we MUST say what we have to)
 

martin

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The idea of masking, adopting a persona, is interesting. But that is not the universal meaning.
Local interpretation, tssk tssk!
LOL.
 

martin

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And crossed posts!
Give me a moment (or two) ..
 

lightofdarkness

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LOL!

The universal meaning of 04 is containment base and a discernment top (mountain in UPPER) - aka contractive bonding in a context of contractive bounding.

The bond focus means a sharing of space with another/others and so the emphasis on a common 'theme' shared - in 07 there is no explicit sharing, you do what the army decrees, period - there is no 'discernment' element as we have in 04.

The PAIR of 07,04 focus on uniformity overall and with that comes the CONDITIONAL form expressed in 04, which means a PARTICULAR form of uniformity and so of a particular masking rather than the total masking of 07.

04 'opposes' 49 where the focus is more on revelation, unmasking to reveal the 'truth' beneath (and so the lies, etc and need for revolution etc)

The format of the masking is done through education and the need for the 'right' teacher and the 'right' pupil (horses for courses so to speak).

04's skeletal form, its 27-ness, is in hexagram 19 with the focus on issues of 'approaching the high' - a theme central to 04 regarding approaching a teacher etc.

OTOH 07s skeletal form, its 27-ness, is in hexagram 41, the focus on distillation, concentration and so 'purity' in expression - as well-structured army does, there is no core differentiation of individuals, all go through the same training to work as if 'one'.

The 'decrease' label of Wilhelm hides this distillation focus - what it brings out is if the process fails then it fails totally.

(note that 19 and 41 form a pair that is interpretable as focuses on this 'mixing' to elicit a pure expression)
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW Martin,

also note that despite the PARTICULAR nature of your associations (son/father/mother) etc vs my GENERAL nature focus, the generic 'vibes' are constant - reflecting the use of the SAME core qualities, different labels.
 

lightofdarkness

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... and note the balanced/unbalanced dynamic reflected in 04/47 where in 47 the masking, the enclosure is 'intense' in form and 'forces' adaptation to context that can be willingly accepted, recognising that it forces the roots to go deep, but can also be resented where the intensity elicits issues with personal identity etc. and so 'exhaustion'. In 47, the containment focus with 'intensity in expression' operating in that containment also allows for associations of imprisonment etc.

If we then review the 47,06 pair so the overall focus is on a competitive 'edge' (when we map in five-phase so lake/heaven deal with issues of exchange and so replacement, wheras water covers internal distribution)

47 is unconditional in approach, 06 is conditional.

07 is unconditional in approach, 04 conditional.
 

martin

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I think I need more than two moments. It's late here and I'm too sleepy to XOR one AND from another. ;)
See you tomorrow.
 

martin

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".. the generic 'vibes' are constant - reflecting the use of the SAME core qualities, different labels."

I'm not sure, the approach is so different. I look at the Yi-girl, I see her eyes, her hair, the way she walks. Then you come along and present me with XOR-ray pictures of her bones. Ouch!

"Look, this is what she really is."
Is she? I'm not even sure that she HAS bones. Or if she has, what is her skeleton made of, recursion?
Of course, it's possible to construct a girl using recursion or some other principle, but is that the girl that we all know and love?
 

lightofdarkness

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Martin, you wrote:

"but is that the girl that we all know and love?"

Of course not - now your being LOCAL; adding local colour to a universal.

Consider the ICPlus or Universal IC focus as not on the "Book of Changes" but on the "Book of Forms" aka structures - this is a Fu Hsi perspective, early heaven compass (XOR oriented - focus on STRUCTURE/SETS) rather than King Wen, later heaven compass (AND oriented - focus on PROCESS/SEQUENCES)

You look and see expression and focus on the every-day dynamics, the sequence of events etc, I look and consider what is behind it, its DNA patterns etc. that will determine what is sequentially possible given that particular form - and so that leads into categories of forms as beings but as text and as context - how context PUSHES the DNA of that form to elicit a biased expression to 'fit' the context in general - this is all STRUCTURAL in focus.

The dayly expressions of people/things etc is pushed by context and elicits adaptations to that context but, for humans, from a genetically-determined 'base' state.

The XOR work etc brings out the expressiveness of all possible states THROUGH each. That is what universals cover, the 'full spectrum' of expressions as universals - LOCAL colour then adds things to complete that universal expression in the local context.

Chris.
 

martin

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Hi Chris,

You wrote "Of course not - now your being LOCAL; adding local colour to a universal."

I asked "what is her skeleton made of?" so I'm not only local. To me the question is: does the IC really have the kind of skeleton that you see when you try to look behind its local (traditional and more modern) appearances? When I read your interpretations it seems that you are often (though not always) talking about an entirely different IC, with another depth structure than the ones that we know.
It's not merely a difference in appearance.
You say that the IDM-IC is "universal" and that other IC's are "local" or specialized version of it. From what I've seen till now of your material - which is quite a lot - I have no reason to believe that this proposition holds true in general. For the scientist in me what you present is mostly "philosophy". Interesting no doubt, but where is the proof? Citing results of scientific research is not enough, anyone can start out with scientific data and use them to argue that the moon is made of green cheese.

I think what is needed here (if you really want to convince me and others, that is) is not more abstract reasoning but some 'hard' empirical tests. As I proposed earlier: explain your system to people who are (unlike you) NOT familiar with the IC, then ask them to interpret some trigrams and hexagrams and see what they come up with.
Good luck ..
 

lightofdarkness

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I think your issue Martin is that you are overally AND oriented and so focused on a King Wen perspective rather than Fu Hsi where the focus is on XOR. As such there is a "Book of Structure" aka "Book of the Non-Changing" that is 'alien' to your perspective and I get the impression you cannot get your head around that XOR perspective.

The foundations of the ICPlus/IDM material is in the empirical studies on neurology etc and from there the formation of generic meanings.

the generic properties of trigrams reflect the blend, bond, bound, bind material - all else follows in the context of the IC.

The use of the brain to extract details from wholes by using XOR of AND forms is reflected in the use of XOR to extract aspects of a hexagram described by analogy to some other - that is a 'standard' form of dynamic for any finite language (Which the IC is).

I get feedback from people that my 'insights' into the IC are 'good' - but I am not an IC 'guru' etc - I use IDM to get those insights - so there is 'something' going on ;-) - when the sense of 'contractive blending' maps to interpretations of earth, as trigram and and as hexagram, I find no issues with that. You obviously do, but then your expose is more AND than XOR.

I will put together a page on "The Book of Structures" that will cover the XOR perspectives in a single document - see how you go with that.

As for comparisons of IC to IDM qualities - those who have 'tested' it find it stunning in that it reflects the IC 'in here'.... and I have posted the species I Ching to this list and suggested people try it out... but perhaps it is all in the 'too hard' basket.

Chris.
 

martin

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I think I'm both AND AND XOR oriented
Chris, also in my approach to the IC. I don't have a preference for the King Wen perspective, although some of my posts might suggest that.
In fact it is not my AND but rather my XOR orientation that cannot get its head around your material. Because the logic seems to jump (intuitively?) to all kinds of far out conclusions and when I try to get into details I usually find .. gaps, huge gaps. Not that I don't like the style, I do, but from a science perspective, well .. And it makes me wonder, could it be that the author of this material is much more AND oriented than he believes he is?
 

lightofdarkness

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you will need to be more precise re 'far out conclusions' etc and to were in particular there are 'jumps' or 'gaps'. I cannot address these issues otherwise.

As to my 'and-ness', my nature is more into structure than process but through that things lead into process (e.g. XOR-ing leads to a rigid form of AND-ing in the form of syntax perspectives etc re identity).

The core focus has been, continues to be, the derivation of meaning, of categories, and so of ontologies - IOW IDM serves as a meta-ontology if you like.

Where that takes me - I have no idea, I follow the data, explore, reveal, review etc etc because *I* want to know.

The 'universals' focus emerges naturally from what is being analysed - how the species derives meaning in general.
 

martin

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Compare your texts with a text in physics or math or even neurobiology and the jumps should be obvious, I think. Or compare them with a text of Heidegger and HIS jumps should be obvious.


I could be more specific and point out a few gaps, but then you will probably try to close them with more arguments (am I right?).
There comes a point where arguments don't add much anymore. That's why I propose 'hard' empirical tests.
Why not? If it turns out that you are right you may very well get a Nobel prize or the equivalent of it. Imagine ...
 

lightofdarkness

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Hi Martin,

Your being very 'waving of hands' here - be specific re your 'issues' please - yes point out the gaps etc - if you need empirical evidence for how we derive meaning I can drown you in references but I get the impression that would be ignored! ;-)

What exactly is your issue at the moment? Do you feel some form of concern with the XOR material a la being able to derive the 27-ness or 14-ness of hexagrams? That focus comes right out of the brains use of XOR/AND to extract parts - if you want to experience that first-hand then go through the material on paradox processing, work with the images -

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html

and then THINK - in additon, references to other brain dynamics are covered in such pages as the set of abstracts:

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/neurorefs.html

The line meaning material fits very well into the scheme of things re understanding the dynamics of recursion and language creation etc - and the traditional IC has rough references to the qualities in the form of its categorisation of general line position meanings for each of the six lines only.

The ICPlus material brings all of that out into the open where the descriptions given to line positions are shown to not be 'made up' but stem directly from the method used to derive the IC - see my comments on IC lines and wave interpretations as part of the below link.

As for prizes etc - I have no interest, my focus is on understanding how meaning is derived and represented at the species level and then specialised at the consciousness level. Thats it. I then share that research on the websites etc - so one can take it or leave it - I am not focused on coming up with some paper to please academics; I seek no kudos, I dont consider myself an IC 'guru' etc I just apply my intellect through IDM to unravel what is going on 'in here' and I do that for me; for my satisfaction. Yes I do get 'intense' when I sense some form of injustice/stupidity/'illogical-thinking' going on - but thats just me ;-) ... and note that I will help others in their journey at times if I can - but often they dont 'get it' and I dont have the interest/time to 'chunk down' - I dont go in for 'primary' or even 'secondary' teaching, not in my nature ;-) That said, I do try and practice what I preach and so have improved my context sensitivity from a bias to MBTI XNTP to an XNXP! - now I just need to refine the sensing and judging elements! ;-)


I will more often 'dump' information on the list and people can take what they want and if they dont 'get it' thats my problem but to me more information is better than less - I am not into spoon-feeding etc., such that better the user selects from the information supplied - prints it out, thinks about it etc - like reading a book but here they can select the pages etc at their own rate.

As I have mentioned before, this method is a bit like quantum mechanics double slits - you get bits all over the place but after a time they all start to link up! ;-)

I will say what needs to be said, I am not interested in political correctness etc - as such I reflect the realm of Thunder and that includes standing up to say one's piece regardless of consequences (25). If people dont 'get it' then I may try a different approach but I dont waste too much energy on it because I know from the material itself that some wont get it since it is not in their mindset to get too 'technical' etc. (in that the material identifies those mindsets! ;-))

If my style comes across as academic that just reflects aspects of me - I dont go in for 'chit-chat' etc, I zoom-on on the details, the XOR elements etc etc. but I also dont get too rigidly AND about it in the form of a rigid sequence of arguement which is perhaps what you seek re comparing my material to some text on physics.

That said, I have started a draft page "The Book of Structures" to consolidate things for you and others - review the draft and if you want, indicate where YOU would like more 'details' ;-)

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icstruct.html

Being in draft mode it is all one page, and so getting long, with some links to others but will be 'refined' as things develop.
 

martin

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Hi Chris,

"As for prizes etc - I have no interest"
I didn't expect that you had;) But wouldn't it be nice if a university payed you for your work on IDM? There would be no need for another job anymore. Also, some kind of recognition in scientific circles will probably open many doors for you that now remain closed.

Now, as to my issue, if you say that IDM is grounded in scientific data I have no problem with that. I think it's true. You have presented enough evidence to support your claims, I would say.
Still, the ultimate proof of a scientific pudding is in the eating, i.e. in the results. Does the model/pudding lead to predictions, to testable hypotheses that can be verified or falsified?
You say, for example, that you have uncovered a mechanism for the derivation of meaning that is "universal". True? Perhaps, but this is a very general claim and I do not see how it could be verified or falsified in this form. Note that I'm NOT saying that there is no evidence that points in that direction. There is, that's not the point.
I'm focusing on the claims/propositions themselves, not on how they are derived. So if I am an experimental physicist and you are Einstein and you try to explain to me WHY you think that light bends in a gravitational field I will say "you have probably good reasons to believe that but I don't need to know WHY. I will test your proposition during the next solar eclipse and let you know the result."

Okay, let's move to more specific propositions that are perhaps easier to test.
In your post about the mountain trigram you express disagreement with Wilhelm's interpretation of hexagram 39.
Quote: "This is a 'poor' comprehension of what is represented universally in that the focus is on (a) avoiding obstacles, but also (b) being an obstacle to 'mindless' flow."
LOL, I had to laugh when I read that, it's so typically you.
Test? In fact this is a test, because you could also have said: here Wilhelm arrives at an interpretation that is clearly different from mine. Perhaps he is misreading the hexagram but it could also indicate that the traditional IC is in fact NOT a specialization or a local version of the IC that I have in mind.
And this is not the only case where there is a clear discrepancy between your interpretation and those of others. Look at what you write about hex 56, for instance. "loyalty (conditional loyalty issues e.g. at a distance)". Loyalty? While this doesn't feature very prominently (if at all) in other interpretations it seems to be a core meaning in yours? How come?
Could this again be an indication that something is not quite right?
Hexagram 12: "... the neutralising of attacks on one's faith and so the confirmation of that faith .."
Oh?

And so on.

You see, that is my issue. You will no doubt be able to explain it all, but I think that such discrepancies should be taken seriously.
You know what happened when Einstein's idea was put to the test. It turned out that he was fundamentally right but that the result was not exactly as he had predicted. He checked his calculations and discovered an error. That is how science works.
 

martin

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Of course, I have asked myself the question: "if something is indeed not quite right then what could it be?"
One thing I noticed so far when comparing interpretations is that noticeable differences mainly occur on the level of hexagrams. On the trigram level the discrepancies (if any) are not that big.
This might indicate that the original authors of the IC used the principle of recursion more or less consistently when they constructed trigrams but for the most part abandoned it when building hexagrams.
If that is true, the IDM IC and the traditional IC (and the more modern versions) have a different depth structure, at least on the hexagram level. It would imply that the traditional language of the lines is not a specialized/local version of the IDM language. It would be fundamentally different.
Not the same girl at all.
 

yly2pg1

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Generally, it is quite true that the ultimate proof of a scientific pudding is in the eating.

except that ...
And this is not the only case where there is a clear discrepancy between your interpretation and those of others. Look at what you write about hex 56, for instance. "loyalty (conditional loyalty issues e.g. at a distance)". Loyalty? While this doesn't feature very prominently (if at all) in other interpretations it seems to be a core meaning in yours?

Having gone through an experience with 56, conditional loyalty issues (e.g.) at a distance seems to fit well from my "third eye" ...

If I look back, this is what i could sum up the experience of 56 on a rational level.
 

yly2pg1

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I'm focusing on the claims/propositions themselves, not on how they are derived. So if I am an experimental physicist and you are Einstein and you try to explain to me WHY you think that light bends in a gravitational field I will say "you have probably good reasons to believe that but I don't need to know WHY. I will test your proposition during the next solar eclipse and let you know the result."

If the proposition is that 56 means "conditional loyalty issues (e.g.) at a distance" (which i am not sure), after the test i would say it seems true except that it is lacking in emotions.
 

lightofdarkness

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Hi Martin,

Firstly note that:

(a) the data supports the set of generic qualities then specialised by local emphasis where that emphasis can be skewed and so not present the WHOLE quality but only a part.

(b) the focus is on XOR and so on STRUCTURES not on divination per se. The only focus on divination is through the questions material simply due to the observation that the WHOLE of the IC applies at ALL moments such that ALL hexagrams are applicable, to be sorted by the LOCAL biases into best-fit/worst-fit order. Tossing coins or yarrow sticks etc does not guarantee the best fit on a consistant basic - the questions do better in that from them we can also elicit the full sequence of hexagrams from best-to-worst. IOW to get value there is no need for any 'outside' influences - no need for the 'spiritual' hypothesis - and I stress *NEED*, that does not say there is no spiritual, just no need to consider anything like that in using the IC.

As for your mentioned specifics:

> Okay, let's move to more specific propositions that are perhaps easier
> to test.
> In your post about the mountain trigram you express disagreement with
> Wilhelm's interpretation of hexagram 39.
> Quote: "This is a 'poor' comprehension of what is represented
> universally in that the focus is on (a) avoiding obstacles, but also
> (b) being an obstacle to 'mindless' flow."
> LOL, I had to laugh when I read that, it's so typically you.
> Test? In fact this is a test, because you could also have said: here
> Wilhelm arrives at an interpretation that is clearly different from
> mine. Perhaps he is misreading the hexagram but it could also indicate
> that the traditional IC is in fact NOT a specialization or a local
> version of the IC that I have in mind.

The IC plus position is of a hexagram covering the generic, 'positive/negative'-less position of contractive bounding (water) in a context of contractive bonding (mountain). Focusing on the negative indicates a biased perspective of a quality that is more generic and so 'free' of that nature, such that it reflects BOTH natures of positive/negative. ALL hexagrams do that. If you follow on from the *traditional* title for 39, given in the ERANOS text, we have:

"CHIEN : Walk lamely, proceed haltingly; weak-legged, afflicted, crooked; feeble, weak; unfortunate, difficult. The ideogram: foot and cold, impeded circulation in the feet."ERANOS p435

There is no explicit 'going against the flow' here. BUT review the realm of the GENERAL where each hex is interpretable as positive or negative and that concept pops out. That review considers, 39 and its pairing with 53, 39 and its pairing with 38, and the line meaning relationships that include the 27-ness of 39 being 37.

We have THREE DIFFERENT forms of analysis appear to favour my universal perspective over Wilhelm's more 'local' perspective - and those different forms are properties BUILT IN to the method of hexagram derivations through recursion. As such you CANNOT immiedately come across those patterns using the traditional sequence, only using the 'natural' sequence derived from yin/yang recursion and so a focus on STRUCTURE (XOR - high precision detailsm NOT clearly covered in the traditional material).

The trigrams indicate "with stopping/blocking/discerning comes containment/control" - the impeding of circulation reflects the barrier, the boundary, the forming of a clot etc - all negative, but the positive side is the use of blocking to control 'something' and is reflected in standing-up against the mindless flow and the BENEFITS from that act. As such, being a 'clot' can act to favour attracting others to 'clot' with you etc and so go against the flow - block but in a POSITIVE perspective.

As I pointed out in the post, 39 pairs with 38 where again we have this focus on going against the flow through the use of 'mirroring' to deal with oppositions - we let them see themselves in us and so leave us 'alone' - we hide behind the mirror.

The ICPlus perspective is universal and as such will contain more than the local perspectives - it HAS TO being universal and so not 'coloured' by local analogies where conditions favoured one form of analogy over another.

If we read the terms for hexagram 02 we have:

"K'UN: Surface of the world; concrete extension; basis of all existence, where CH'IEN..exerts it's power; all-involving service; earth; moon, wife, mother; courtiers, servants. The ideogram: terrestrial globe and stretch out, stability and extension."ERANOS p163

Where is there 'darkness' here? Nowhere - this is all positive. But 'contractive blending' is interpretable in BOTH ways (and yin IS associated in traditional perspectives with darkness, the negative). Thus hexagram 02 from a COMPETITIVE perspective is DARK as compared to the YANG perspective of 01 that favours blinding LIGHT.

Change the focus to a COOPERATIVE perspective and yin is still dark but now as a place to hide, to be nourished, protected, be a womb etc etc. Yin softens to be female as yang softens to be male etc etc

Pure contractive blending has no positive/negative elements, only a focus on pulling IN (push along) as compared to expansive blending that pushes OUT (pull along). These map to methods of dealing with context - to coexist (pull in to be one) or to replace (push out to be one).

> And this is not the only case where there is a clear discrepancy
> between your interpretation and those of others.

But I dont see any discrepancy in that I still cover the negative of 39, but also the positive and in so doing the WHOLE of 39. I give the UNIVERSAL form that is wider, more encompassing, than the traditional material since it is focused on what we AS A SPECIES do, not on the local conditions of 10th century BC China.

A severe discrepancy would be if my interpretation was totally at odds with the 'feel' of 39. None of my material is at odds with any hexagrams in that all interpretations will fall into the generic categories with each LOCAL interpretation being biased in that it is trying to ACTUALISE the potential - a universal description has to cover all aspects of the potential.

> Look at what you
> write about hex 56, for instance. "loyalty (conditional loyalty issues
> e.g. at a distance)". Loyalty? While this doesn't feature very
> prominently (if at all) in other interpretations it seems to be a core
> meaning in yours? How come?

Firstly:

The ERANOS text for 56 is:

"LU : travel, stay in a place other than your home; itinerant troops, temporary residents; visitor, guest, lodger. The ideogram: banner and people around it, loyal to a symbol rather than their temporary residence." ERANOS p596

Note the prose associated with the ideogram.

secondly, take the pairs of 62, 56 - they share all lines bar the top. In these pairs in the binary sequence the differences are in the top line, all the rest of the lines reflects a SAME perspective. The PAIR covers issues of loyalty. Now take 56 with its 'opposite' of 60. BOTH focus on issues of limitations in general. Add to this the 27-ness of 56 to give us its roots in 55 - a focus on issues of abundance, too many choices etc and so in 56 the preference for one.

The negative sides of 62 and 56 cover improper loyalty issues - past the best-before date, assertions of loyalties, imposition of loyalties, in foreign lands etc. Note that FIRE is about ideology, especially in the upper position, in lower it is more about guidance. At the generic level fire is about expansive bounding, pushing outwards, convert all to 'same'.

When you focus on the recursion it comes with all of the hexagrams linked together, supporting each other and THAT is a better perspective on the univeral IC than the traditional material that is riddled with local analogies/metaphors - as well covered in Marshall's book and others.

Universals are like genes - context insensitive, focused on structure etc LOCAL context will then bring out ASPECTS, not necessarily the WHOLE. In genetics context can in fact BLOCK expressions of genes and that is indicated in the traditional IC material. As I have emphasised many times, HOW you think will determine WHAT - thus a competitive perspective will block consideration of 'coexisting' with another/others - the focus will be on REPLACEMENT. As such, a 'competitive' mindset will skew interpretations etc and that has to be considered in analysis of universals where we have to cover both aspects of a hexagram (covered in the TWO modes of analysis using dichotomies - symmetric/asymmetric)

> Could this again be an indication that something is not quite right?

Yes - the traditional material is not 'right' from a universals perspective ;-)

> Hexagram 12: "... the neutralising of attacks on one's faith and so
> the confirmation of that faith .."
> Oh?

PAIR analysis of 11, 12 (opposite sides of the same coin, name the coin).
PAIR analysis of 45, 12 (cooperative, unconditional vs competitive, conditional).
27-ness of 12 is 17 indicating issues about belief systems, following etc.

Traditional ERANOS text is:

"PI : closed, stopped; bar the way; obstacle; unfortunate, wicked; refuse, disapprove, deny. The ideogram: mouth and not, blocked communication" ERANOS p197

This is strongly negative, and in the context of the IC focus on 'change' reflects a negative attitude to such attempts to avoid change. BUT, from the ICPlus, universal IC, perspective so there is a POSITIVE aspect as well and that is reflected in the NEUTRALISING of attacks on one's faith and in so doing validating that faith. Again the ICPlus perspective is more encompassing than the traditional. The Generic focus is expansive blending in a context of contractive blending - the main focus being "IN A CONTEXT" - IOW heaven is operating WITHIN earth and the trigrams read "with/from devotion comes singlemindness"

> And so on.
>
> You see, that is my issue.

:) well, there are no issues here to me in that (a) the ICPlus material incorporates the 'traditional' but also (b) transcends that traditional, LOCAL, perspective to show the 'full spectrum' of IC symbolisms etc.

All I see from your comments is a FAILURE to go 'wide' in investigations of meaning derivation and of the nature of universals. I have read a considerable number of translations/interpretations of the IC as I cover the derivation of MEANING. ALL of the interpretations/translations I have read would 'fit' into the generic blend, bond, bound, bind form of the IC - the Species I Ching.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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the emotions of 56 are of sadness/grief as context, acceptance as text. (mountain only in the UPPER position becomes discernment)

56 can be interpreted as from sadness/grief comes acceptance. 'refine' the trigrams and acceptance means an ideology, to be 'one of the gang' etc. - as such we can join a 'gang' etc out of lonliness, loss, etc. (mountain opposes lake - lake emotionally covers love/joy/sex etc - mountain covers the LOSS of that love etc - we share space with another/others 'in here')

The 'stopping/blocking' of mountain in lower feeds into the direction setting of fire in upper.

The CONDITIONAL nature of 56 is in the top line - this also makes it:

competitive
differentiating
mediating
etc

Note that acceptance can be felt as if 'emotionless' but it is in fact an emotion.

Chris.
 

martin

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Hi Chris,

"Yes - the traditional material is not 'right' from a universals perspective ;-)"

Sure, lol. Of course, a complication is here that we are not talking about natural phenomena - like light and how it behaves in a gravitational field. We are talking about man made code (trigrams, hexagrams) and what that code is supposed to mean.
What does '8/k/3p/p2P1p/P2P1P/16/K w - - 0 1' mean? You say it means this, others say it means that, but unless you know the key it will be very hard to guess. I have the key and know what it means. The string is so called FEN-code, it encodes a well known chess position (first published by Rueben Fine, also known as 'Fine 70') that is often used to test the hash tables of chess engines.
By the way, as an aside, there is a lot of XORing going on in these engines, not to mention the fact that a chess board has 64(!) squares, so if you have an idea how to apply IDM in this area I'm all ears;)

What did the ancients authors of the IC TRY to encode and how? Which key(s) did they use? You say, based on neurological data and other considerations: it must be the this, it cannot be anything else.
Well, I would agree that it makes sense to assume that what they did was somehow 'in sync' with how the brain/mind functions but that still leaves many possibilities open and I don't know exactly what happened.
So I'll leave the question open for now, if you don't mind.
Or is that brain?
 

lightofdarkness

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We are talking about generic feelings we all share as species-members.

We are talking about universals where the notion of positive/negative comes AFTER the notion of differentiating/integrating - and so differentiating can be positive or negative, as can integrating. - IOW we reflect the movement in our brains from general to particular.

We are talking basic structure DERIVED from recursion of differentiating/integrating where that dynamic is hard-coded, and so constant, in all of us as species-members; and in other neuron-dependent lifeforms to varying degrees.

ALL possible expressions are CONFINED, DETERMINED, by the method used to derive those expressions.

look at it from a 'small world network' perspective. The universal I Ching is a complete system, all is linked to all else, reflecting the use of recursion/XOR dynamics. BUT, being a universal there is no movement.

Put that 'graph' of POTENTIALS into reality and out pops LOCAL actuals, developed using ad hoc processes - THAT will create a 'small world network' - all very LOCAL.

Your focus in IMHO overly on expression, on AND-ness, on taking the traditional IC 'as is' and so limited to a Chinese mindset - but IC isnt - it has its roots in our consciousness as a species and it is that that makes it intuitively universal to so many.

As I said before, all I see in your emails to data is lots of 'waving of hands' - you show in this reply of yours a total disregard of my replies to you assertions about discrepancies etc where my points are VERY valid and so emphasising the narrow-ness of the traditional perspectives.

Do you recognise my replies? to you consider them 'of value' or 'weak'? no - you just ignore them, you hope it will all 'go away' - you prattle on about not associating 'loyalty' with 56 and when I show from a TRADITIONAL basis how WRONG you are, you ignore it and try and 'keep going' as evidence mounts to support my perspective re universals etc. As I said, you appear to hope it will all go away and you can return to 'normal programming' - It wont. New world openning up... ;-)
 

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I do not consider your replies as weak or of no value, not at all. But as I wrote earlier, when I mentioned Einstein, I'm not asking WHY and that seems to be the question that you keep addressing.
I know the WHY by now. What I'm looking for is the kind of empirical evidence that led Einstein to reconsider his calculations. For some reason you apparently don't understand what I mean. It's really quite trivial and scientists will always ask for empirical tests sooner or later. It's common practice. There is no waving of hands here, on the contrary, such tests are often the only means to STOP the waving of hands and all the discussions that could otherwise go on forever.
What is the problem? You know, the thing is, you are convinced but many others are not. You don't want to enter your new world alone or with only a few, or do you?
 

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Btw, I don't understand your "you appear to hope it will all go away". Do you think I have developed an IDM phobia or something? Lol.
 

martin

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Oh, I forgot about 56. You cite the Eranos text that has the word "loyal" in it. Okay, I didn't say that loyalty was entirely absent in traditional interpretations. What I did say was only that it doesn't "feature very prominently (if at all)" in those interpretations. Some mention it, some don't, and I don't remember an interpretation that puts much emphasis on it.
Your subsequent analysis is interesting but mostly based on IDM and I don't see how that shows that my assumption was wrong, based on tradition. I DOES show that I'm wrong from the IDM perspective though. No problem with that.
 

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