What am i doing wrong?

[alvaro]

after a long period where i haven´t used the yi, i've started to consult it again.

the problem is that i keep getting rather "obscure" answers. so far i have asked the yi as a tool to get to know the real me in more depth. for these kind of questions difuse answers are quite useful, since they connect you with your unconscious.

the last couple of weeks i started to ask more concrete questions, and the problem is that i find it extremely difficult to relate the images and advices of the yi to concrete aspects of every day life.

so the question is, what am i doing wrong?

should i keep trying and one day things will get clearer?

am i asking things the yi cannot answer?

should give up?

what was your experience? did the answers of the yi make sense when you first started consulting it?

thanks!

alvaro

 

[candid]

Hi Alvaro, and let me welcome you to the forum.

Moving from introspective to outward and practical application of the Yi does take some adjustment. I can?t recommend any shortcuts, but I can say that hanging around this forum can prove extremely helpful toward the end you describe. You?ll find that there are other meanings, new to you, which are legitimate translations and interpretations. This expands your Yi vocabulary and definitions, which in turn can help you to apply your readings in a new and often more practical way.

To start, you may wish to post your question and answer here and see what kind of practical interpretations others come up with.

I?ve been at this a long while, but there are still times when Yi?s answers have had me stumped, especially when applied to external practical matters. Most of the time I?m just too close to the situation to see it clearly. That?s when I either ask the assistance of a peer ?Chinger? in private email, or will post it here on the board for helpful feedback. Thank the powers that be for friends.

What you may also discover is that your present view of the Ching has existed in a bubble, that is to say in your own private world. This to some is where Yi belongs, thinking practical matters aren?t deeply personal or weighty enough to bother Yi with. I don?t agree with that thinking at all. I used to though, when it existed in my bubble.

If you have an example just toss it out here and see what you get.

Candid

 

[Sparhawk]

Alvaro,

An open mind and proper attitude are the key to good Yi interpretations.

The Yi will always give you an answer that's in tune with your question, if and only if you are open to receive it as such. That process starts with the question and a "need" to know the right answer. This may seem obvious but there lies the problem.

Back in October last year you wrote in this forum:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Regarding the skepticism... Let me drop a bomb. What if the messages we get from the I Ching were wroten ambiguosly on purpose, so they can be a tool for personal research?

This is my approach to the Yi for the moment...

Still, I don't want to reject (that's a too strong word!) the divinatory part.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you allow me, I think you picked up the study of the Yi from the wrong end for divinatory purposes. Your initial approach was one of taking up the study of the Yi as a subject and trying to find a door to its origins and inner workings. There is nothing wrong with first approaching the Yi from that angle, if you are an academic sinologist that is. I would venture to say that about 80% of the people that seriously study the Yi had first approached it as a divination tool for personal purposes and that they had brought with them the necessary open mind and curiosity to accept and apply the answers the Yi provided.

After that first approach, those people will usually continue expanding their knowledge of the Yi and go into more detailed and serious study. Now, this is not to say that it is great deal smoother for those with a divinatory inclination to interpret Yi answers. That, like with everything else, takes time and practice. However, in my experience, it is usually easier for them to find synchronicity in the Yi.

In any case, the best way to break the barrier of skepticism is not to despair in the face of confusion or apparent lack of synchronicity. Keep using it and ask as many questions as you can. You will eventually establish a dialogue with the Yi that will surprise you at first but will see as natural as time goes by.

On the other hand, as Candid well said, you can always post your question here, and the obtained answers, for an objective interpretation. When I started in the mid 70's this media was not available. I can tell you that if it did, sharing my concerns and interpretations with other peers would have saved me a lot confusion and dead ends in my study. You are most lucky to have found the Yi when you did.

Un abrazo,

Luis

 

[alvaro]

Candid, Sparhawk, thanks for your answers!

I guess I agree with both of you. At first I thought Sparhawk?s comment was a little tough but he is probably right here too. I am doing quite an effort to leave behind my scientific background and open myself to a world bigger than that one limited by pure rationalism. I don?t know how to do that, since I?m new to these aspects of reality. My view is still too restricted by my background.

I admit I am skeptical to most things I cannot understand. At present I can accept the value of the Yi as a self exploration tool, but have trouble to go beyond that. I take that as a first step.

I cannot easily get rid of my background. I am talking here about a scientific background but I guess one could go further and say that cultural and social backgrounds are also putting a limit to one?s view of reality.

Probably the question should have been how to get an open mind and the proper attitude. Or can the Yi help me to open up?

I fear I could be doing an effort on the wrong direction. And the truth is, at present I am in a situation where I could certainly use the extra help the Yi could provide.

I am not trying to test the Yi?s hability to predict reality here (just to make things clear). Just trying to make sense of the answers I got.

Alvaro

 

[candid]

Alvaro,

That's all perfectly understandable.

One thing you probably won't find here is anyone trying to evangelize you into believing the ways of Yi. But if you have a question or an example of a reading, let's have a look at it and see if our interpretations help to give meaning to your answers. That's really the only way for you to draw your own conclusions. You become both the scientist and the subject.

 

[alvaro]

still feeling a little bit shy here...

could i contact any of you privately?

thanks again,

alvaro

 

[candid]

Alvaro, sure you may. My email is candid@frontiernet.net

 

[jte]

"Probably the question should have been how to get an open mind and the proper attitude. Or can the Yi help me to open up? "

One thing that may help: before you start asking your question, still your mind briefly - kind of like meditation, not necessarily "deeply" still, but enough to clear away scattered surface thoughts. Then ask your question and toss the coins. Also, you should expect that if you're sincere in asking the question, you will get a valid answer (although it may still be hard to interpret).

Also, if you haven't yet looked at Hilary's "Practical I Ching" on this site, definitely check it out.

Hope that helps somewhat...

- Jeff

 

[pedro]

As in all maters in life, there is nothing you have to do, there is only what you have to (want to) be

the yi doesnt have a mind of its own, it needs yours in order to make any sense

if it doesnt make sense its because you dont want the question answered; and you may convince yourself you do as much as you want - you cant fool your soul

because if you do want the answer, then you can get your answer from whatever book, method or frame of mind you use; actually it is pretty irrelevant how you go about getting it

 

[alvaro]

hi again!

i guess i should share this with you .

i asked the yi what is holding me back in my professional life. (i believe this question is a mix of a inner-self/every day life issues). i got as an answer 60 changing to 27.

my interpretation of this hexagrams is that most likely i'm being hypercritical and by this i'm most of the time in a confrontational position with everyone. probably people see me as trouble. i am certainly puting a lot of effort on what i do and all these efforts are done in order to get the job done in the best way. i believe the yi is telling me that i should adopt a softer position and not to try to impose those bitter restrictions to those around me.

furthermore, i believe that i'm not being recognised in the proper way and that sometimes people less qualified than me are given better opportunities. furthermore, i believe the persons who are in charge are not doing a great job.

my view of the yi's answer...

6 in the 3rd. place: asuming an inflexible attitude will probably cause me more harm.

9 in the 5th. place: not to try to impose those bittering restrictions to others.

6 at the top: seems again a confirmation of the previous changing lines.

the mutant hex is 26. i interpret this as a further insight in my present situation. is the yi telling me not to give up? ("the superior man acquaints himself with many sayings of the antiquity..."). and also to recognise my previous mistakes ("...and many deeds of the past"). that i should humble myself and accept to be tamed.

i also took the nuclear hex (27) as an open possibility or an advise. to act in a humble way, to learn from what others have to teach me and make a contribution where i can. and not to try to undertake great actions, at least not in those work related aspects.

then i asked how to improve my present professional situation, and i got again hex 27! this time changing to 42. the general message i take is that i should pay more attention to the view others have of me, not for the image itself, but how my attitude affects interpersonal relationships. to try to focus on the good aspects and getting rid of all the faults. Nuclear hex 27 is 23 means not to loose hope completely?

thanks!

alvaro

pd: i would probably contact some of you privately to further discuss these readings. and also other readings

 

[alvaro]

pedro,

i saw your post after i had post mine. i mostly agree with you. the problem is that understanding, enlightmentor or whichever way you chose to name it, is not necesarily an spontaneous thing.

i believe you have to work on that. and that was what i was asking in my original question, what to do when it seems you are not going anywhere. should you give up? or should you try harder? or just keep trying?

alvaro

 

[pedro]

well, arent we all asking that?

what do I believe right now? that it is pretty much what you want it to be

whatever it is you are dealing with right now, it is of your own choosing

yet each now you can choose again

period


then you have to realise that wanting something is just a statement of how much you dont have it

start telling yourself you do have it for a change; and I mean, really believing it, because you do

not convincing yourself of it, but merely realising that it is already yours

beyond all doubt and sheding away any thought of discouradgement with simply laughter

and thanking God!!!! since it is so obvious its already yours and no matter what, youre bound to get it


See, what I really think, if anything, that you (or me, or anybody) should be doing, is realising we are gods and goddesses, and nothing more than that

you are powerfull beyond any limits but those you believe you have

what more is there to worry?


Thats what I am believing right now (call me next week if you want an update

)

 

[Sparhawk]

Geeze, Pedro! Yidiot is showing more and more in Pedro's rethoric... I'm happy you are finding a balance...

Luis

PS: Alvaro, I'm typing my take on your hexagrams above. Not that if would be any good but hang on...

 

[pedro]

I have two words for you, Luis:

Pro - Zac

 

[Sparhawk]

Good! Now, do not down those pills with Absinthe. Ok? That's a no-no...

L

 

[alvaro]

the problem is, pedro, that you are showing me where i want to go, not helping me to get there

certainly getting there is my own job.

still i guess there's something to learn from what you tell me, not what i have asked for, but maybe what i need.

thanks,

alvaro

 

[candid]

Alvaro,

You seem pretty tough on yourself. 60 points out that galling limitation shouldn?t be persevered in, or persisted in. Self correction is one thing, but constant badgering will have a repressive effect. Once you are beaten down its pretty natural to look outside of yourself and see them as the cause of being treated harshly or unfairly. Then envy arises against those who you are told to serve and look up to. This breaks down the mutual cooperation within your work environment.

Rather than nourishing yourself, and thus nourishing those you work with, your competitive approach only serves to limit your effectiveness.

I?d suggest rather than try harder, as you put it, try seeing yourself as a ?nourisher?. You?ll find that when you yourself are well nourished there is abundance to nourish others. When others are nourished, they in turn have more to nourish you with.

Does this shoe fit?

 

[pedro]

Luis, LOL

and please share any other of those with me, I never quite figured why aspirine bubbled so much on my whisky

Alvaro, sorry for the side talk (its the purpose of these places, aint it?), and no, I dont have the slightest clue it is what you should hear; Im making this up as I go

You just seem to be fighting yourself somewhat; not really sure how you should go about it, I guess I recognised my own self in you

If you have any clues Im all ears

After all we teach only what we want to learn

And we all have something to teach

 

[alvaro]

candid, at present i see myself in a quest trying to be a better person. in the past i only cared for those things that were true from an strictly rational point of view.

Life on its turn, kept on showing me that this was not the path to success, not from the professional nor the personal point of view. this is why i'm on this quest to try to find out a more fullfilling life. professional life is just a part of life, an important part, but just a part.

candid, when i said to try harder i meant to try harder to get a better understanding of an "expanded reality", a reality that goes beyond pure rationalism.

it's funny, in my case i'm pretty sure that i have to try harder to give up... hmmm... how do you achieve that?!

salud!

alvaro

 

[alvaro]

sparhawk, thanks to you too, i'm waiting to get your view of the answers i got!

feel free to answer me in spanish!

abrazo!

alvaro

 

[candid]

chuckles.. that's like trying harder to have sex, trying harder to relax or sleep, trying harder not to think of that big purple elephant next to you.

 

[alvaro]

no one ever said it was easy!!!

 

[Sparhawk]

Hola Alvaro,

You should know already that you can contact me in private anytime. I'll be happy to chat with you and share points of view about the Yi.

Now, beware, this is looong...

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

i asked the yi what is holding me back in my professional life. (i believe this question is a mix of a inner-self/every day life issues). i got as an answer 60 changing to 27.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you allow me the inside joke, and without Yi interpretations: IT'S THE PLACE YOU ARE LIVING IN, MAN!! LOL! (For those who don't know it, Alvaro and I come from the same corner of the world...)

Seriously though, here is how I see the Yi replying to you:

60:2,5,6>27

A. 60 is the image of "restriction"; of things that are proyected big but are held back by surrounding circumstances. We have the image of rain falling on a lake; the image of danger and uncertainty over happiness and fulfillment. In the nuclear trigrams we have a mountain over thunder; immobility stumping and precluding mobility. This is where the name of the Hexagram comes from.
In my experience, this hexagram is a call to examine the roadblocks that are holding you back; find their weaknesses and use them to pry them open. This may seem obvious under the light of your question but in reality is very tricky. There are impediments that we deny ourselves to see them as such. In the end, because of this, the resolution to break through the impediments rest in yourself. Try to be as objective in your goals and your personal circumstances as possible.

You should know that I like to play a lot with the imagery of the trigrams (some are reluctant to play like this because it may make it look like a Tarot reading)... I may sound a little like the Yi itself in obscurity but try to play with the metaphors. Threading along this line: I see you as the proverbial crane, the one who loves to live by the water but hates rain. Legend says that cranes fly above the clouds to avoid being rained on. You are shown as being unable to take flight. Perhaps snared by something. Perhaps, it is not that you are unable to take flight but the lake is giving you a false of sense of security; that if you hang on close to your source of nourishment you'll be able to weather the rain. I guess it is possible, it doesn't rain forever, but one solution takes longer than the other. Alas, if you don't move, you are also at the risk of being run down by a flood. Do you know for how long or how much is going to rain? Being complacent in one's situation also carries many risks. It is better to take your own risks and not to wait for the risks to reach you on their own... The image also shows three brothers and the youngest sister. The elder brother is seeing as protecting the youngest sister (they are both together and have an upward movement and the elder is positioned above her in the direct path of the other two males). Still, protection is not enough to allow for movement at this moment. See if you can use this familiar images in your daily life. Do they apply to actual people in your life? Is it possible that you are impeded to move by family obstacles? Or is it that a couple of small external factors in your life are impeding the move?

Hex 60 is not as bad as it may look at first sight. The balance of upward and downward tendencies of its components is positioned in a similar manner to that of Hex 11, Peace. In the case of Hex 11, the harmony is free flowing and no obstacles are seen. The mating ritual is completed. Hex 60, on the other hand, has a lot of uncertainty built in. This uncertainty may be due to the fact that elder support is not available. The case of Hex 11 shows both parent getting together and supporting in their bosom this team of elder son and youngest daughter, the same one that shows up together in Hex 60. In that case they have advanced one step forward with their support. In Hex 60 the parents are gone (or just not there yet or not called forth to help) and the struggle at the moment seems to be centered around siblings. Are you an elder son married to a youngest daughter? I don't want to sound like a carnival fortune teller... You can take this either literally or as depicting circumstances that surround you using the imagery attached to the components of your hexagrams. When I say that Hex 60 is not as bad as it looks, I mean that once you realize what your obstacles are, by seriously studying them, you can overcome them.

The Judgement says:<FONT COLOR="0000ff"> 60 intimates that (under its conditions) there will be progress and attainment. (But) if the regulations (which it prescribes) be severe and difficult, they cannot be permanent. </FONT>

Here is what I think Candid was trying to explain to you about being too hard on yourself. There is only so much you can do by setting goals and charting your future as an abstraction. Be real in your goals. All plans are only guides, and should not be taken as the blinders on a horse. You should be able to bend your own rules when the time is appropriate. Otherwise your goals will not be fully achieved or, if they are, there will be no permanence. Open your heart to flexibility.

Now, passing on to the lines (I will use the Legge's translation since it is the book I have with me at the moment):

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">60,2; The second nine shows its subject not quitting the courtyard inside his gate. There will be evil.</FONT>

Here we go, this is what I told you about being too complacent in your current situation, even if there is a want to change it. However, wanting and not acting, takes you nowhere. Like saying "it is better a known bad thing than an unknown good thing" (I know you'll be thinking about this in Spanish because we have the perfect saying for it...

) In the symbolism of the line it is added: "There will be evil: He loses the time (for action) to and extreme degree". I believe this should be obvious to you, but just in case: START MOVING. If you don't you may miss your window of opportunity. And the call to action is not just for the sake of movement; it is for you to start placing the pieces on the board so that when the moment comes to take decisive action, other things are in place. Time is of essence and you don't want to be taken by surprise and be stuck by not being ready when the window opens.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">60,5; The fifth Nine shows is subject sweetly and acceptably enacting his regulations. There will be good fortune. The onward progress with them will afford ground for admiration</FONT>

This line couples perfectly with what I said about the "second nine". Here, it shows you as having taken the action suggested there. This is your show and your future; if possible you should set the steps to take to achieve as much of a good fortune for yourself as possible. Take in consideration advise given in good spirit, including this one, but don't be guided blindly by them. Take only what rings true to you in that advise and take charge of your future. It is yours. By being assertive on this point you will cause admiration in those who surround you.

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">60,6; The topmost six, shows its subject enacting regulations severe and difficult. Even with firmness and correctness there will be evil. But though there will be cause for repentance, it will (by and by) disappear</FONT>

Here is a warning. Top lines are almost always difficult in nature. It shows, among other things, people that is in position to help but consider themselves above such endeavors. Mundane affairs are below them. It is also a transition point. A jump into the unknown. The end of a situation. Uncertainty for the future. In this case, I lean towards what Candid said about being too hard on yourself. Be real with the goals you set for yourself and know your limits. It will save you a lot of pain. You cannot carry out your goals by blunt force of conviction. It is more like navigating shallow and rocky waters. It takes patience, dexterity and a keen eye for obstacles. Being firm for the sake of firmness will crash you against a wall. You must be flexible and adapt your course according to what the course brings with the flow. A lot of difficulties are shown ahead and although you may feel many times like turning around (cause for repentance) steady yourself on the board and those feelings will go away. The goal will finally be achieved.

B. All this brings you to Hex 27, The Nourishment.

Let's play with the imagery for a while... Here we have a mountain (unmovable, steady, patience and contemplation) on top of thunder (very much moving and inpatient, almost the antithesis of the other one). All empty inside with two limiting firm lines on the outside. Not a better image of an open mouth can be found... In this case though, the thunder will not be stopped by the mountain. It will move upwards not matter what obstacles are put forth in front of him. However, it will not be by force that he will achieve his success but by chipping away, little by little those boulders. At the same time, the mountain will eventually show a passage to the subject and the integration of the two will be complete: the mountain will not completely lose its integrity while at the same time the thunder will be able to pass thru to the other side. The inside shows a double image of the Receptive, the mother, having a very strong presence between the two brothers. An intermediary between the two. It also shows by example to be open to new things and ideas. This ideas are the Creative and they will hatch inside the Creative. Both trigrams show a tendency similar to that of Hex 60 and Hex 11: they call for gradual integration. It may be difficult and full of problems but integration and achievement is the end.

The Judgement says: <FONT COLOR="0000ff">27 indicates that with firm correctness there will be good fortune (in what is denoted by it). We must look at what we are seeking to nourish, and by exercise of our thoughts seek for the proper aliment</FONT>

There are many ways to see or interpret a complementary hexagram. In this case I will chose to see it and take it in a couple of different ways: 1. as a conclusion to the events depicted in the original hexagram (Hex 60); and 2. as a reality check for the goals set forth. In the first case, it shows a subject that by staying his course, have reached the goals he set for himself (nourishment) and now is feeding from its fruit.
In the second case, however, it calls for self-knowledge. By finding your center and knowing precisely what you are trying to accomplish is that you will reach the goals that will fulfill your real inner desires. Until such a time the warning is that you may be feeding the wrong part of your Self and, even if you reach "a goal", it may not be what actually feeds your soul. You are at risk of selling your real happiness to the wrong goal. At the risk of sounding like a cliche, money is not everything in life.

I see Hex 27, within the context of your question, as both a before the facts of Hex 60 and an after the facts. The before is the reality check described in the paragraph above. Like a sandwich where Hex 27 is the bread and Hex 60 is the meat. The after is the accomplishment and reaping of the fruits of hard work.


Well, that was my very humble opinion. I honestly hope and wish that all this tirade makes some sense to you.


Un abrazo, (yes, we hug and kiss a lot in my country, even between same sexes)

Luis


PS: Dedicated to all who may think I am here only to joke around and share silly graphics of Candid and Leonard...

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

you can crack my nuts with a sledgehammer any day!!!<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch!!... I rather not. You may want to use them later on and flat are good for nothing... Did I mention the horrible pain that comes with it??

Luis

 

[candid]

 

[alvaro]

Luis,

THANKS!!!

Let me read your comments and then I'll get back to you.

Abrazos

Alvaro