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What if the I Ching doesn't know?

quale

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this has been on my mind for a while now. do you think the answers the I Ching gives come from inside(from your subconscious) or outside(from the universe, or the cosmos or whatever)? i remember reading a theory saying that what the I Ching tells you is just a reflection of what you have hidden in your unconscious mind. if thats the case then what if you don't already have the answer to your question hidden away somewhere inside your head? that would mean that if you don't know, then the I Ching doesn't know either! i asked this today because lately i have been getting some VERY unhelpful readings that rather than pointing me in the right direction seem to be just telling me how confused I am, which I don't really need to know...
just wondering what peoples opinions on this are.
 

hilary

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I think the I Ching 'knows' a load of stuff I don't know, not at any level of what I'd normally call 'I'. But I also think that there are times when the knowledge you're looking for is just not there. For instance when someone just hasn't made their mind up yet. One hexagram that quite often tells me 'there is no answer' is 29, the Repeating Chasm.
 
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bruce

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A chasm is an interesting way of seeing this. It reminds me of the chasm that separated the rich man from the beggar in Luke 16:26 ? ?And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.? It was the beggar who received grace.
 
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bruce

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Quale, there were times when I thought I understood where these synchronistic answers come from. Probably my most common theory was that our conscious minds tap into the collective unconscious, filtered through the individual unconscious, through the subconscious and finally arising in the conscious. Now I can only say I don?t know, but as theories go, that?s as good as any, imo.
 
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seeker

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There is a theory that says that everyone and everything is connected, part of the same whole and that on some level we all know everything there is to know about each other, ourselves, the universe etc, we just cant tap into it. Certain levels of meditation are believed to tap into that other awareness and connect with that knowledge. So if you believe that Yi only knows what we do or only tells us what we already know, incorporating that theory, perhaps it too taps into a level of knowledge we have that is not consciously accessible.

For me, I do believe in that universal consciousness, but I also believe in something beyond that, something that I cannot quite grasp or explain, and I believe that Yi is part of that. I believe the answers I receive are part of something larger, vaster and yet simpler that any awareness I currently possess.
 

kevin

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Hilary

Great observation!

and

29 - As you say - and the attached advice is spot on for that too I think.

Bruce - Search me - been through the same loop - Just happy it works.



--K
 

quale

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the universal consciousness theory is pretty interesting...think I might look that one up. i asked the Yi about how it works, can't remember what hex or what line it was, but it said something to the effect of "One with means of livelihood and trusty servants to call on." guess that means its not all that important where the knowledge comes from, whats important is that it can be counted on to help anyway.
 

jte

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"from inside(from your subconscious) or outside(from the universe, or the cosmos or whatever)? "

I'm on the "From the outside" side of this debate, although it comes *via* your connection to what's outside.

As folks above point out, you are a functioning, albeit relatively miniscule, part *of* the outside, really. Even your "inside" isn't really separate from it.

So, in your "inside" is a connection to the "outside" and that's, I think, part of what Yi draws on and also enhances when it answers. It may seem contradictory, but that contradiction or tension is really what hold the answer to your question, I think.

The I Ching actually mentions the "outer" aspect of this indirectly - the first line of the Shuo Kua mentions the Yi being invented to "give mysterious assistance to the spiritual Intelligences" (Legge). Or per Wilhelm ("in order to lend aid in a mysterious way to the light of the gods").

The "light of the gods" is an external thing, IMO, although possibly also *linked to* (but not only *in*) our consiousness somehow.

So, anyhow, that's where I am in my slowly evolving understanding of where the answers come from - some sort of superhuman intelligence (or collection of them) that's "out there". As totally bizarre as it seems to me (being educated to not believe in such things and to take any claims regarding them with about 10 pounds of salt) that's the conclusion I end up reaching.

- Jeff
 
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littlebuddha

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All oracle systems work on the principle of synchronicity. The entire universe, just like a hologram, is found existing wholly and intact at ALL seemingly isolated points in creation. Fundamentally, since All is One, the concept of an 'inside' vs an 'outside', from the standpoint of an oracle, is non-existent. Only egos, desirous of upholding the appearance of uniqueness from that of other egos, maintain in the reality of separate vantage points. Oracles, being ego-less on the other hand, have an overview of All at all times, and are never subject to the ego-constructed illusion of that of a dissociated individual.
 

sparhawk

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Quiet but reading some of the posts. Busy with other things but, like I said, still reading.

Hilary said:

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

But I also think that there are times when the knowledge you're looking for is just not there. For instance when someone just hasn't made their mind up yet.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Ahem, let me see if I can spell the word correctly: "oxymoron"... Yup, that's it. Ugly word but not insulting, according to Merriam-Webster...
Although I know and understand what you are trying to say, the real issue, I think the premise is incorrect. Isn't it the purpose of consulting the Yi, in many more instances that we care to admit, just that: seeking help in making up our minds?

My personal belief is that all knowledge, past, present and future, is contained in the Yi. It is ultimately us who are limited in understanding the meaning of the answers.

Dixit,

Back to obscurity...


Luis
 

hilary

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You are being much cleverer than I am


Yes, of course Yi helps us make up our minds. I was just thinking of questions that boil down to either 'What am I going to decide?' or 'What is he going to decide?' Or some combination of the two... it's surprising how many do - relationship questions especially, of course. And then free will kicks in.

If you don't altogether believe in free will, you may prefer to think of it as 'times when the truth you're looking for is still down in the Chasm and outside your reach'.

Nice to hear from you, btw
 

jte

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Littlebudda, I hope you don't mind me asking for more detail/explanation on what you wrote above. In particular I'm interested in how you know what you state...

"All oracle systems work on the principle of synchronicity." That certainly could be true, but are you sure? How do you know?

"The entire universe, just like a hologram, is found existing wholly and intact at ALL seemingly isolated points in creation. Fundamentally, since All is One, the concept of an 'inside' vs an 'outside', from the standpoint of an oracle, is non-existent." How do you know this is true??

"Oracles, being ego-less on the other hand, have an overview of All at all times, and are never subject to the ego-constructed illusion."
How do you know this? Do you know for sure what an oracle *is*? If so, I'd be very interested in hearing your description and also the causes or evidence for what you believe...

Again, I hope you don't mind me questioning your assertions. They are very interesting ones, but also quite strong statements, so I'd like to hear the rationale behind them...

Thanks!

- Jeff
 
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littlebuddha

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Littlebudda, I hope you don't mind me asking for more detail/explanation on what you wrote above. In particular I'm interested in how you know what you state...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

A combination of things. Repeatedly pursuing a deep reflection of that which initially began as a curiosity to know better, coupled with the study of the sciences and metaphysics, and learning to trust the voice of intuition.

If you think about it, it's much the same way one goes about getting to know anything. Curiosity starts to focus you on a subject, repetitive experimentation and reading other people's experiences lead you to your own intuitive validation.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Again, I hope you don't mind me questioning your assertions. They are very interesting ones, but also quite strong statements, so I'd like to hear the rationale behind them...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Jeff, if you go back and re-read some of the other posters' comments, as well as your own, you will find that we are all in essence saying much the same thing. The difference perhaps that you may have picked up on in my wording, by comparison, is that I believe what I am saying as a result of my personal experiences versus just a sharing of some commonly known ideas.
 
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littlebuddha

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Do you know for sure what an oracle *is*? If so, I'd be very interested in hearing your description and also the causes or evidence for what you believe...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Oracles are mirrors into which we gaze to see the face of pure universal awareness - the All.

Opting for the condition of a separate unique ego experience, we must perforce divorce ourselves from pure universal awareness first. As a result, our thoughts are cast 'outside' in the guise of other people and the surrounding landscapes where we experience them as 'not-me'. We are convinced that things are occurring 'out there', but they are in fact all happening 'in here' - ultimately there is only Mind.

Having effectively separated from pure universal awareness and become unique individuals we must now create a substitute 'out there', a stand-in to symbolize the condition of pure universal awareness that we have disengaged ourselves from in order to have this experience. Hence oracles.

We created and now employ these devices as a means of re-connecting on some level with what is our natural pure universal awareness state, should we choose to do so. Yet, also wishing very strongly to sustain the existence of this illusionary reality we call our world, many of us are left re-connecting to pure universal awareness through some outside medium. Hence the obsession with oracles.

Jeff, this is where my experiences have led me. I hope this is clear enough for you.
 
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bruce

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Hi Jeff,

I?ve been thinking about your ?outside? perspective, and can agree that it surely feels like that. At the same time, since the connection is made to the inside, I can see how it can seem to come from within.

The outside theory is a greatly expanded version of the ?coke machine? image, only it is eternally and infinitely filled. The coke and container are already prepared, already whole and complete. We have only to pay for it with trust and then consume it.

The inside theory is existential, and possibly self-inflating.

I propose that Yi comes neither from outside nor inside, but rather is like the potential power in an electrical circuit. There is no actual power or energy until a plug provides a ground. We are that ground, or rather our openess is that ground. Until then, the power is potential and dormant, like the dragon in the lake of 17, resting. There must be a ground for energy to flow.

Which leads to a riddle:
Q - When does Yi provide no answer?
A - When we have no question.

Now I understand that Yi can give an answer even when we have no formed question. But if there is no openness to receive an answer, if we have already stubbornly made up our mind, or when we?re just spinning wheels, or are hopelessly bound up in our confusion, Yi has no answer to offer.

At least that?s how it seems.
 

jte

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Hi, Littlebuddha - Yes, your answers are clear although I was hoping for a greater level of detail/specifics. I certainly don't question whether you believe what you state, more the details of what led you to the beliefs. But, I suppose, as you state, some study and some intuition, fair enough.

"Oracles are mirrors into which we gaze to see the face of pure universal awareness - the All."

Well, I'm not sure if that's clear or not. You mean that the oracle *is* the entire universe or a sort of universal consciousness or ?? And again, how does one know? Intuition?

Again, I certainly feel you have the right to believe whatever you chose, I'm just curious what those beliefs are founded on. If you chose not to continue this discussion I will understand, as it can be uncomfortable to have one's beliefs questioned. So, completely up to you...


Bruce, after thinking about what you said for a while, yes, in a way I guess the Yi seems like an "answer machine", but it also doesn't in the sense that (I believe) it's an intelligence (and, I think, probably a greater intelligence than us ones asking the questions ;-) ). It also has a lot of "flavors" (answers) to dispense and seems to improvise new ones from the materials it has at hand (another indicator of intelligence).

And yes, I wonder about the "payment" I think there's more than just trust - I think it's answers help "make the world a little bit better" when we follow them correctly - like increasing good and curbing evil. I think that may be the real "payment" for it. The reward of seeing it's benevolent purpose fulfilled or perhaps this increase of good/decrease of evil somehow strengthens or "feeds" it. Something like that.

Just my (slowly evolving) personal theories...

- Jeff
 

heylise

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When the fishermen, and the animals, knew that the tsunami was coming, then 'who' told them?

They had a life long experience with the sea, they knew the stories and myths of this place, and they were used to listening and looking, they saw the signs.
The oracle which told them, was nature. The sea, the animals, the air, the colors of sky and sea maybe, the experience of their people, and most of all their intuition which tied all this information together in an oversight, a 'knowing'.

Yi is a map of universe (I think) There are probably many ways to make such a map, but this one happens to be easy to consult. You do need some of the fishermen's qualities, some understanding of myth, some experience with life and emotions, some listening and looking. But compared to 'reading' the ocean, it is easy. For the fishermen, the ocean is a map of universe which they can read.

So I think understanding what Yi says, comes from inside, your own openness, and from outside, a sign.
The openness is the most important part. When you are really open, you can even get an answer from flying birds, tea leaves or license plates. Because being open means your senses and intuition are ready to receive, ready to make sense in whatever way. Yes, you have to connect to the plug, in order to make the electricity flow. "We are that ground, or rather our openness is that ground. Until then, the power is potential and dormant, like the dragon in the lake "

I agree with the hologram, the Yi being a map of the universe in the size of galaxies, but just as well in the size of a lover wanting to know. That too is a universe, for him or her. So the answer is huge like galaxies, but still it is not too big for your question. The law by which a star decays is similar to the law by which a car gets old. And sun and planets attract each other like lovers do.

the Yi being invented to "give mysterious assistance to the spiritual Intelligences" (Legge). Or per Wilhelm ("in order to lend aid in a mysterious way to the light of the gods"). Spirits and gods, electricity flowing.

How do you get an answer, apart from being open to receive one ? how do the coins give "that" answer.. I think randomness makes things happen in the way raindrops fall out of a cloud. Why does a drop form in a spot and not another spot, why does it form at that moment. There are causes like high moisture, temperature dropping, but yet ? there are tiny things which give a very faint direction to every single drop. The entire world we live in seems to have come about because the chance for one kind of particle to form was a tiny bit higher than its anti-particle (don't ask me for the right terms). When you let randomness get its way, it accords to universe. Then the ocean speaks.

Stealing Bruce' quote on his profile: Every drop of rain knows where to fall

LiSe
 
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littlebuddha

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Again, I certainly feel you have the right to believe whatever you chose, I'm just curious what those beliefs are founded on. If you chose not to continue this discussion I will understand, as it can be uncomfortable to have one's beliefs questioned. So, completely up to you...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I have described my viewpoint in the best way I know how. I do not believe that defining the pathway of my beliefs, nor trying harder to explain myself, will make my views any easier to grasp.

IMHO, there are certain things that can only be apprehended through revelatory experience, and this is most likely one of them. And even then, we cannot always possibly put them into words, however hard we try: for words are, afterall, but symbols of symbols - therefore they are twice removed from the state of reality.

Jeff, sooner or later, we each in our own way, make our way to truth, in a way that makes sense to us. Perhaps in time even my ideas will make sense and resonate with you, perhaps not. Still, good journey to you.
 

jte

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Well, LiSe, that was well said and I can certainly relate to it, because I've been in that "When you are really open, you can even get an answer from flying birds, tea leaves or license plates. Because being open means your senses and intuition are ready to receive" often enough to completely recognize what you are speaking of. The Yi tends to enhance that for me.

But, for me, what comes into more question are the deductions we make from that experience.

- all the universe is (somehow) interconnected
- all parts of the universe mirror the entirety (hologram style) (I guess this is a more specific explanation of the above)
- there are "higher intelligences" (call them spirits or angels if you like, perhaps even God?) that present the information or somehow allow you to perceive it
- some type of force or energy (non-intelligent and non particularly well-understood by science) causes this phenonomenon
- some part of your mind or brain or consciousness allows you to perceive this (there is no need to postulate anything special outside)

All of the above are, I think, possible explanations and no doubt there are others. And all seem quite hard to "prove" in the modern, empirical sense (which doesn't, in my view, invalidate personal experience/insight, since those are also tools for understanding the world). And certainly everyone who experiences this sort of thing has a right to decide for themselves what they believe.

I personally haven't reached "firm" conclusions; although I have leanings, based on the particulars of my own experiences, I try to stay open so as to learn as much as possible. When someone takes a strong position I'm curious about the rationale behind it, to see if there's valid information there that I haven't been exposed to yet.

Pehaps I'm being overly rational in my search, but hey - that has its uses...

- Jeff
 

heylise

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I am not sure if God and universe and the message and the structure are separate things ('things', oh well..).
I even think ego is part of it, it has been given to us in order to explore universe, to decide about the path we follow, to make choices, and to enjoy this grandiose creation.

My search was ovely rational too, and still is in part. I am happy with it, gave me lots of good things. Just busy adding the other half now.

LiSe
 

hester

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Jeff, thank you for sharing your experience of the Yi, it is very interesting. I wish you could write a short story about it, so we could hear the specifics, ha! lol. do you read the work of Jacques Vallee?
 

jte

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Hi, Hester -

Thanks and I'm flattered. I haven't read Jacques Vallee but, having just looked him up on Amazon.com, I'm honestly not sure I'm interested in exploring UFO issues right now. It's just that I have enough difficult-to-explain stuff go on in my life with the I Ching without looking for other fish to fry... But, 1. I honestly do appreciate the suggestion and 2. does he write about synchronicity/omens and/or I Ching and divination at all? since I *would* be interested in that...

As for my story - it would be tough to write it all down, but I'd be happy to give more specifics of my experiences with synchronicities if that's what you're looking for.

Give me a while to write some of it down and I'll post again on this... Okay?

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Jeff, I also appreciate where you're coming from. Hell, if we had the absolute answers what would we need Yi for? Then what would we talk about? "Oh I had a perfect day today. How was your perfect day?" (insert yawn icon)

Thank the gods for imperfections which are not really imperfect. Imagine if we could put it all on a neat pedestal, and sit back and admire it all day, and say "there it is." Well that time may come, but somehow I don't think so.
 

hester

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Hi Jeff, But this is why I think you might find his work worth reading, he really isnt a regular UFOlogist, he has some very interesting ideas...they remind me of things you write sometimes. Youre one of my bright lights here, thank you.
 

jte

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And thanks to both of you! Hester, you are very kind.

:)

- Jeff
 

jte

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Well, Hester, getting back to you on this?

For me there seem to be a few things that ?enhance? synchronicity/omens. The main thrust seems to be using the Yi in concert with activities that work towards a higher cause, for example

- doing work towards a cause that fits some of humanities higher ideals (for example, healing the sick, or ending hunger, poverty, war, or racism)
- being in certain states of consciousness ? typically prayer, but also when not praying, the ?inner truth? state of consciousness ? a kind of gentle, simple, unassuming state. It?s difficult to describe, but Legge?s writeup of Hex. 61 gets at it: ?the heart or mind free from all preoccupation, without any consciousness of self? It?s really a wonderful state to be walking around in, but it is often quiet difficult to maintain under the pressures of modern life
- ?doing the right thing? even if it?s just in a way that aids your own self-development

Some specific examples of times when this was in effect in my life:
- in college, walking away from a betrayal by a girlfriend (just letting her go her own way, rather than going groveling back to her or becoming obsessed and unable to let her go as men sometimes do, even though I was in love with her)
- also in college, helping to found a student organization to help homeless people
- going through almost an entire day in an ?inner truth? state ? after this, I had quite an overwhelming ?spiritual/religious? experience
- later in life, doing an (anti-)discrimination training project at work on which I was called to work a lot of extra hours on my own time
- joining a church and seeking to become actively involved in it and the ?good works? of members
- starting to write a health book and adjusting my own lifestyle to fit the recommendations in the book

Interestingly, for the last two, I?ve pretty much gotten off track ? I?ve been too busy to finish the health book (although I intend to pick it up again when I feel I can). Also I?ve decided that although the church is a good church, it?s not quite right for me, so I?ve decided to stop attending. What?s interesting is that the synchronicities have subsided (although they?re not *completely* gone). It?s as if the energy that I was putting into these endeavors is also what was fueling the synchs. (Hex: 35 ?The Chun Tzu himself brightens his bright virtue???)

After I became aware of this, I started questioning the Yi about it ? the answers seemed to indicate that you can?t just pick up any cause. Rather, you should select something that you actually believe in and in which you will be able to have an impact (*some* impact, not necessarily earth-shaking). You can think of this like ?something that fits your Tao, if you like.

I?ve also noticed that even when your not in midst of serving some higher purpose, simply using the Yi can enhance synchronicity. I think that if your circumstances are such that following the Yi?s advice will ?make the world a better place? in some small way, then you are likely to see synchronicities from following the advice, if you are open to them.

By the way, I?ve also experienced some negative synchronicities ? it turns out that drinking coffee was aggravating a minor medical problem that I have ? an inflammatory condition. The connection between the two wasn?t particularly obvious to me, but it became quite apparent. The pattern was, drink coffee, soon afterwards experience synchronicity, then the next day have the problem flare up. (In some cases the synch would also occur just before the medical problem would start.) Although the synchronicities were somewhat disturbing, the consistent link helped me to understand that coffee was a big part of the problem.

In case, you?re not tired of reading by now :), I?ve actually already described many of the synch?s I?ve experienced in this thread:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/2045.html?1082074814
(Note ? this is split between two large posts, which are split up due to the ?bandwidth protection? split that Hilary does on longer threads.)

I also wrote a good bit on synchronicity in this thread: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/92/2255.html

I?ve also already described my spiritual experience (on my ?inner truth? state of consciousness day) in this thread: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/2680.html

So, I hope that was what you were looking for, Hester. In case you want more info or something else specific, just let me know...

:)

- Jeff
 
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bruce

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Wonderful post, Jeff. Some really interesting insights and experiences.

Especially interesting to me is that synchronicities emerged in tandem with distressing experiences, as well as positively active times. I can relate to that. In fact, the deepest and most life changing synchronicities occurred (to me) when entangled with deeply disturbing circumstances. Maybe like dreams: the ones which often impact us most are nightmares?
 

hester

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That's so interesting Jeff, what a unique and consistent experience you have with this. Thank you very much for sharing.
 

nelson

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I regard the oracle as a spirit person and talk about it that way.
I think God lies underneath everything - like something that set things in motion - growing -
living - expanding and dying -
then there are other forces - spirits that can be
around and can cause good or bad. Sometimes they
can cause omens you can look for and then they
can help you. It happens often.
Nelson
 

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