What if...

[kdedeaux4]

I'm really hoping for some interpretation help with this one!

I asked IC what might happen if I choose to attend D's court setencing?
Response: Hexagram 5, lines 2 and 4 changing to 49.

Interesting that I read an interpretation of line 2 that talks of "observing". This sounds like going would be mostly positive? yet line 4 talks of gossip and attacks. This is truly a very real possibility and is evidence that the IC understands the nature of this situation.
And then 49...transformation.... Hmmm.....I'm really not putting together the overall message with this response.
So, I asked IC what might happen if I choose not to attend this?
Response: Hexagram 50. I really have no idea how to tie that into my question and really struggle to comprehend the larger, overall energies of 50 in general.
I would be very grateful for some additional insight into these responses!
~Namaste~

 

[ginnie]

Best to stay away

Action must be avoided. Line 5.2 only means that people will gossip and blame each other. The more significant line is 5.4, which Blofeld translates like this: "To abstain from action amidst deeds of blood is to accord with the principle of allowing things to take their course." When it says "deeds of blood," that could really involve significant physical injury, in my experience.

Since you have been warned well in advance, it is clear that if you value your safety you will stay away.

As for hexagram 50, I don't know. Were you perhaps invited to attend a big celebration, a birthday party, something like that, on that very day? It could literally mean that. However, hex 50 usually is taken more generally or metaphorically. After hex 49, Total Transformation, which was a complete change of mind and heart, comes hex 50, and it marks a turn towards the more spiritual values of kindness and generosity.

 

[kdedeaux4]

Barbra

Thank you so much for responding to this! Seems I really missed the message of this one and this sounds very scary. On a personal level, I'm perplexed as to this response. I certainly mean no ill will at all and care about this man and the difficult situation he is in. My plan was to silently observe just so he would know that he has my (silent) support come what may... It's shocking to hear the outcome could be quite so horrendous!
So, I asked the IC why would attending be such a negative thing.
Response 37, lines 2 and 5 changing to 26. I consider this man like family, in spite of the circumstances we've entered. Would you please help me decipher this so I might understand better? I certainly want to heed this warning and at the same time, being at this to show my support in a distant and gentle way feels important to me also.
Sorry to ask for your help again. This is of great importance to me and I'm compelled to try to honor the situation and yet also compelled to try to gain as much understanding as I possibly can.

I would be really grateful for you additional insight into this relating response.
~Namaste~

 

[ginnie]

Enough responsibility already

Hi kdedeaux4,

37.2 says it all: "Enough responsibility has already been placed on your shoulders. You should not seek any more responsibilities, but concentrate on fulfilling those you have now." This quote is from Sam Reifler's translation of the I Ching.

Believe what the Yi is telling you, even though this is one of the most frightening lines to get in the whole I Ching. Injury is coming! To whom? How? Can you do something to stop it? And so forth. Your wish to put in an appearance says that you are a very kind person (37.5). But the Yi is telling you there will be some form of danger, and you will be completely out of place there.

Would you feel guilty if you didn't go? That's where hexagram 49 comes in. It says: guilt will disappear. You have been advised that you have no responsibility whatsoever with regard to these events and that the best thing for you to do is to stay away from the court that day. Heed this warning!

It would be great if you could get back to this thread after the court date and post feedback on what happened.

 

[mary f]

Alfred Huang, Legge and Karcher have a different view for Hex.5. I quote and leave up to further analyzis:

Huang - "5) Needing represents an initial state of achievement. In an initial and uncertain stage, it calls for patience. Before acting, nourish the body and accumulate strength. Waiting is absolutely demanded, yet it does not mean give up. During this period it is necessary to cultivate self-confidence, steadfastness and caution in every step; then the outcome will bring good fortune.
5.2) Needing alternates to already fulfilled. There is trouble, but only a little gossip.
5.4) The situation is difficult, even dangerous. It is possible to get hurt (*). The Decision says water is related to blood, a symbol of being hurt. Most English translations follow the Chinese text literally and translate the Chinese character xue as blood. However, I read it xu translate it as "ditch". The situation keeps getting worse. But the fourth line is a Yin element in a Yin place, a correct position. One in this place may not act lightly. The commentary advises, ' Following the principle of yielding, accomodate the situation.' In so doing, one will climb out the ditch."

Karcher - "5) Attend to, assist. Hsu = be careful, wait with attention. Provide what is necessary. Doing this you are connected with the spirits and success comes and you will be able to bring the situation to maturity.
5.2) Yu, the great, is working and creating the channels. Waters and ghosts step back, revealing sand below. You are closer to your target, although some voices still speak. They don't hurt you. Keep your eyes on what is right.
5.4) Give attention to this. You are in danger (**). Be careful with traps. Now you can save things if you listen to this. Be resolute. Act. You are connected to a creative force."

Legge - "5) With the sincerity which is declared in it, there will be brilliant success. With firmness, good fortune. It will be advantageous to cross the great stream.
Strength confronted by peril might be expected to advance boldly and at once to struggle with it; but it takes the wiser plan of waiting till success is sure. That's the lesson of the hexagram...
5.2) He will (suffer) the small (injury of) being spoken (against), but in the end there will be good fortune.
5.4) Its subject is waiting in (the place of) blood. But he will get out of the cavern."

Look Kdd, I'm struggling to make a clear point here due to my rawness with Yijing, but from what I learned, I prefer to be careful with translations and believe we'd better not to make literal interpretations.

Now it's my opinion:
(*) suffer affliction from your friend's situation?
(**) danger due to the extremely delicate situation.

I'm not mentioning the other hexagrams because they seem to be clearer.

All the best.
Mary.

 

[kdedeaux4]

Thank you so much

Thank you both so much for helping. This is very challenging for me! It's difficult to comprehend that doing something from concern and kindness only might have a negative effect...and yet, in this situation, I suppose it's not a far-off possibility. At this point, I'm pretty certain I'll not attend this...and yet, I'll be honest and admit that's difficult to accept. Yes, I'll definitely feel guilty for not showing my support to someone I care for who's going through such difficulty. However, I also know protecting myself from further damage is vital to my own well being and probably shouldn't be risked. Perhaps even my presence would make things worse for him, which is definitely not what I desire!
If the outcome of this is bad for him, it will be painful for me to know there's nothing I can do to help the situation. ("Suffer affliction" from his situation?) The entire situation surrounding this man (personal-level)and this particular issue(nothing to do with me) is delicate and may be to the extent of being dangerous...?
I hope I don't get overtaken by guilt and go in spite of the warnings.... I'm powerfully pulled to feeling I should be there and I'm doing some deep soul searching regarding this debate in my heart/mind, but something must be off about going merely by the fact that I felt I should ask the IC about it at all!?! Normal circumstances would make this a non-issue and I'd have no doubts as to my need to attend...

Thank you both very much! I'll certainly be back to post the outcome of this.
~Namaste~

 

[mary f]

Hello.
Kdd, maybe I was not clear, but you still seem to be taking the texts literally. I'll take a position. I don't think your readings tell you not to go. Please revise the texts I quoted.
I'll try to comment later (I'm at work).
Kind regards.

 

[ginnie]

It's hard for us

5.4: I have had personal experience of this line, so I have a feel for it.

Hexagram 5 is about waiting and avoiding action. We can get very tense while waiting. Try to think of ways to reduce that physical/mental tension caused by waiting. Yet, you are definitely being advised to not go there.

The second line says going will cause difficulties in your life and could cause people to talk about you. The fourth line is quite clear about distancing yourself immediately from the situation.

Since you asked the Yi, please know that the Yi has given you the best possible advice.

 

[mary f]

I wish we could receive further opinions...

 

[Trojina]

At this point, I'm pretty certain I'll not attend this...and yet, I'll be honest and admit that's difficult to accept. Yes, I'll definitely feel guilty for not showing my support to someone I care for who's going through such difficulty. However, I also know protecting myself from further damage is vital to my own well being and probably shouldn't be risked. Perhaps even my presence would make things worse for him, which is definitely not what I desire!
If the outcome of this is bad for him, it will be painful for me to know there's nothing I can do to help the situation. ("Suffer affliction" from his situation?) The entire situation surrounding this man (personal-level)and this particular issue(nothing to do with me) is delicate and may be to the extent of being dangerous...?
I hope I don't get overtaken by guilt and go in spite of the warnings.... I'm powerfully pulled to feeling I should be there and I'm doing some deep soul searching regarding this debate in my heart/mind, but something must be off about going merely by the fact that I felt I should ask the IC about it at all!?! Normal circumstances would make this a non-issue and I'd have no doubts as to my need to attend...

Thank you both very much! I'll certainly be back to post the outcome of this.
~Namaste~

Not wishing to dismiss anyone elses interpretation but if you feel in your heart its right to be there don't ignore that on the basis of our readings...The I Ching can be hard to understand as you know, strangers can't always know what is best. You know the situation and theres many ways to interpret a reading. I'm saying this because it would seem tragic if you didn't go when everything within you tells you its the right thing to do and you care for this man. You have to trust yourself. Ignoring strong convictions involving care for someone who needs you on the basis of advise from readings here would, I repeat, seem tragic if that were not the right thing and I think your heart knows best whats right here.

As to the reading to me it just shows uncomfortable waiting...a place one needs to get out of quickly. With 5.4 waiting about increases anxiety, one needs to distance self from sourse of trouble. Your answer maybe purely descriptive of your emotions in the courtroom, you know you feel anxious, and you'll feel better when you get out. I don't think it says to go or not to go, nor that there is any real danger. 5.4 could mean danger in some situations but mostly I find it turns up when I need to get away from the source of anxiety. Anxiety,worry and fear is the 'blood' in the pit...you do or will want to get away from this and with 5.4 getting away is best not hanging around. Nevertheless i don't see this as instruction not to go, just that it might not be a great experience for you but you wouldn't expect it to be anyway would you, I doubt its an experience anyone would relish. Perhaps your answer just reflects that discomfort

 

[marien]

Okay Mary, since you asked I would interpret 5.2.4 > 49 as "Waiting to Get Rid of the Old", and 50 as "Taking Up the New". Seems a huge transformation is to occur regardless, though the Cauldron is offering a much less painful path. I pretty much agree with Barbra on this. 5.4 doesn't have to be as harsh as it sounds, though the imagery here implies a serious potential for harm. (and 5.4 on its own turns into 43 Parting, so "get out of the pit"). 37.2.5 > 26-- shows the need to "stay inside" to avoid potential injury "out there". 37.2 says kde4 should take care of her own needs first, and in doing so there is no loss of trust from her friend (37.5) This restraint leads to accumulation (26)

Best of luck to you Kde4; please let us know how you're doing.
Mary

ETA -- just saw Trojan's post. It's true that one should never ignore one's instincts. (Yi just gave me a 29.6 this morning about something I'm going to have to do anyway!..) It's just a way to understand deeper motivations/implications, and how we can adjust to to any given situation. In any case, Yi is showing here the need to protect oneself emotionally.

 

[kdedeaux4]

My heart

You are all so wonderful to help in this confusing situation!!
The sentencing is the 29th (this week!)....I'm all roller coaster about what to do and you all here really help give me new ways to look at the situation more realistically, potentials and otherwise....
It's amazing that the IC talks here of gossip coming at me. That is precisely one of the enduringly damaging aspects of this situation. No, I've not "bled" literally from it, but yes, it has been horribly damaging to my spirit and my life in ways I never could have imagined random hateful gossip could ever be... I am absolutely certain that the least damage done by my appearance here will be ugly words spoken about me. That happens when I'm not "appearing" in this situation, regardless. I've been forced to accept that that's just going to be how people in this situation are going to respond to me. Unfortunate and painful, yes...but I'm learning a lot about life, people, love, and myself in the process, lessons for which I'm learning to be grateful.
The nature of the energies surrounding this situation forces me to question whether to follow my heart or my head in this question. Something I've usually not questioned before (I'm a follow my heart type of person!). It becomes a question of doing what my heart feels is the right thing...and having the strength to withstand more "attacks" and hatefulness. Or going against my heart and protecting myself (which this very relationship situation has taught me is unfortunately very necessary at times).
I can't imagine that my actual life will be in danger by attending...just my raw and beaten spirit... and I have to look in my heart and ask earnestly, how much more can I take, and then I guess overall decide exactly which choice here I can live forever with... Truly, I go back and forth on this...protect myself...do what you feel is "right"...protect myself...do what's right...
I've the feeling that I'll go back and forth with this until the moment I would need to get in my car to go (or not)...and I'm praying clarity comes to me in that moment.

GREAT BIG thanks to all of you who took the time and heart to help me ponder this
This week is the deciding moment....I'll be back to this thread to let you know what happened
You are all such a blessing:bows:

 

[diamanda]

It makes total sense the way you put it, the turmoil sounds terrible.
However i must say that the outcome, in any case, will be the same.
Both 49 and 50 stress the need for you to completely get away from all this.
To leave this whole lot behind, and make a fresh start with your life.

In 5:2,4>49 this will happen in a more prolonged and more painful manner.
In 50 the change is gentle and positive and all good.

As about you feeling him as family - just check if he behaves in a 37:5
manner to you. 37:2 shows a woman taking care of family affairs, and
then 37:5 a man who approaches her with love and respect. If this is
how the situation has been between you indeed, then it's all fine. But
something tells me this is not so, and that you consider him as family
in a different manner. Perhaps in your heart, but not supported by events?

In any case, good luck with it all!

 

[kdedeaux4]

Interim IC update

I am laughing at myself a little here, so I MUST share....

Asked IC...please give me insight into the upcoming events in re: to the situation between D and I.
Response: Hex 43, lines 5 and 6, changing to 14.

After reading a little about this response, I think to myself: GOSH, am I trying to "trick" the IC into giving me another "answer". If so, IC is apparently not going to be "tricked".... I mean really, just what am I trying to find out by asking this vague question about the future here?!?

Second note: the translation I read for these lines tells me that consulting with people here regarding this was a wise choice. ..and I wanted to let you all know and say thank you again! ~Namaste~

 

[kdedeaux4]

17.1.5. -> 16?

Guess I can't leave well enough alone and trust myself to make the right choice here! In the midst of my what if this....what if that...questions, I decided to ask a more bold and direct question.... Don't think I've ever asked a yes/no question before and I admit I was uncomfortable....

Asked: Should I go to this sentencing?
Response: Hexagram 17, lines 1 and 5, changing to hexagram 16.

Here is my limited interpretation: Hex 17: Following(??)
Line 1: Changes made (Yes definitely!)leading to contacts(??) and success
Line 5: Confidence in people and/or my convictions(hmmmm... yes to confidence in my convictions, in the related people? Not so much!) Blessings(not trying for blessings, but gosh it sure would be a refreshing change in this horrible mess!)

Hexagram 16: Response, positive confident effort, Strength and integrity (have the integrity, sorely lacking in the strength area!)
Any ideas for clarification on this follow up reading?

 

[mary f]

What a situation Kdd!! I realize the event might have already took place, but...

A couple of days ago I asked what should I know about Jesus Christ. I received 17 unchanged...

Your reading seems clear to me as being a YES.

The translation I picked up at LiSe's portal says:
"Most fulfilling. Worthwhile to be dedicated. Not a mistake".

17:1 - Huang - Yao Text: "The situation has changed. Going out to communicate. Good fortune." Now see Hilary's text: "Going out of the gates, joining with others, there is achievement."

17:5 - Quote of the translation at LiSe's site: "If there are too many choices and not enough lifetime for every digression, maybe the best way to limit them is to set higher standards. not higher ideals, but higher realities. Life is not tested or greatly advanced by the easy ordeals. Great strides are seldom taken in lockstep with others. We learn to swim best in cold water over our heads, when we are most alive to the living yet to be done. To face greater contexts and challenges will more likely cure us of snobbery than it will foster conceit."

16 is all about decision with enthusiasm. Get ready, strong and go. Karcher interprets: "Gather your energy by reimagining the situation and go ahead."

Best of luck.

 

[ginnie]

A turn around

Isn't that interesting. "Those in power have undergone a change of heart and are now following what is right." You will not fail if you go there . . . This is a complete turn around and presages good fortune. There can be no doubt about it.

This is a wonderful example of how things can change from one day to the next, and how the I Ching reading will reflect this.

 

[kdedeaux4]

Ahhhhh...it's over!!!

Well Barbra and Mary, I was delighted to read your last two responses because, yes, I WENT!

After all this, I have to tell you it was rather uneventful. I did just as I wanted...sat a ways away from him but close enough that he knew I was there. While waiting for his turn in front of the judge, I prayed that he would be sentenced as mildly as possible, but still enough to help him learn from the situation...ending my prayer with "God's will be done" (but please take it easy on him, God )
He was given a fairly mild punishment considering the offense, but still slightly more harsh than the average person in his situation... I was a bit saddened, but felt a calm sense of reassurance that this must be exactly what is best for him on his path. I know I would have been far too merciful and any chance at him possibly learning from the experience would be nill!! So, I feel pretty good about it! I feel great that I went, great that I followed my heart and faced my fears in this situation and grateful that I'm not sitting here worrying and feeling guilty because I didn't attend.
I don't know how much "good" it did or didn't for him, as I left before he could have an opportunity to address me directly. Given our circumstances, I really felt that was the best choice. Unfortunately, I've recently chosen to block all avenues of communication between us, so he is currently unable to contact me in any way (safety mechanism for me that added strength to my willingness to go...and adds safety in other areas regarding him as well). Given that he can't contact me to discuss this, I asked IC how he felt about my attending this sentencing (crossing my fingers that it would be good.
Response: Hexagram 48, lines 4 and 5, changing to 18....Ruin? Now, I'm not feeling so good about to this from his perspective. This sounds horrible! Was I just selfish to go? Did I hurt him by being there? I followed my heart, and my intentions were sincere, but I worry that I might have hurt him (his pride? his feelings?)
Anyway, nothing horrible happened on any level... and I'm just going to hope that nothing horrible pertaining to this choice occurrs in the future, as I understand that sometimes repercussions are not instant, but take some time to fully unfold... Crossing my fingers and praying like crazy...
So, after my plethora of interpretation requests regarding this thing and so much kindness and help you've already bestowed upon me, if you all aren't just sick to death of my neediness, I would love insight on this final reading pertaining to what this has done and felt like for him????!! Anyone?
And then, hopefully, I will stop being the neediest child in this forum begging you for help all the time

Many, many thanks and blessings for all the kindness and patience you've gifted me with in this trying choice I had to make
~Namaste~ Krista

 

[Trojina]

18 is about repairing things that are spoiled. So it would seem theres an element of making ammends here, putting things right through effort. The image in 48.4 is of a well that cannot be used because it is being repaired, so again the theme of reparation. In 48.5 the water in the well, in the situation asked about is clear and accessible, the well is fine, repaired. So I might read this as the situation was one of repair, making ammends, putting things right in the context of the relationship. Perhaps he saw your attendance in that way, although it may simply reflect your position. Asking how others see things isn't always the most useful way to ask, but it looks like something was 'repaired' by your attendance, maybe emotional repair, perhaps there had been some neglect in the relationship in some way. There isn't anything 'horrible' about the answer, its about setting things right.

If you have an I Ching book that says 18 is 'ruin' and nothing else then you need to chuck it out and get a better one or do a course on it. People seem to alarm themselves alot lately and I'm wondering where they get their information from. Its important to realise answers don't usually irredeemably doom you to a certain outcome otherwise you'll go on being horrified by this awful I Ching book you seem to have. Some answers are predictive but to the extent they enable you to handle the choices you make better, not to take choice away from you

Glad your attendance went well BTW.

 

[ginnie]

Hexagram 18

Yes, hexagram 18 always presages success, because it's about fixing what was wrong.

So glad it turned out well. And, as Trojan suggested above, get a better translation of the I Ching, if yours is full of doom, gloom, and disaster. Words and their effects on us are very important and far-reaching. So think calm thoughts, and stop worrying, because what you tell yourself is also important!

 

[mary f]

... I asked IC how he felt about my attending this sentencing (crossing my fingers that it would be good.

Kdd I`m so very glad all went well and you ended up satisfied.

Now, since you asked about how he felt, I see that 48:4,5>18 as telling you that he felt there you are such a fountain of what's very good, but he hurt it and now would need to work it out inside himself.

And I fully agree with what said Trojan (LOL) and Barbra. Why don't you tell us what are you using to interpret your readings?

Warm regards.

 

[kdedeaux4]

I use many different sources of interpretation. I tend to look at which one comes to mind first, read it, and then search myself for what it means to me. I think I grabbed onto "decay/ruin" and instantly assumed the worst...this being a situation where my fears and emotions run very deep. I didn't really stop to contemplate beyond my initial fear that my attendance was not a good thing for him... my worry that in trying to alleviate any chance of my feeling guilty, that perhaps I forgot to consider that could be a rather selfish motive and perhaps "undo" the very purpose which compelled me to go..? This was sheerly coming from the misdirected and fearful side of me and not much rational sense
After a bit more research with 18, I think I've a better overall understanding and how it maybe more reflects on the current environment of this relationship in general...
I'm slowly learning...I just have to some way learn how to not read into the hex's and lines from the negative aspect of my own fears and worries
Objectivity is such a precious peaceful gift

 

[ginnie]

Not to worry

We can read the I Ching when we are afraid and worrying -- and thereby experience an entirely new and different perspective. Something is there that engages the mind in a different way and can help us re-picture the situation.

An obstacle to this happening might be when we really have not had much experience with a certain hexagram and do not "get it." Then it can only add to the confusion. Hexagram 18, for example, does mean that something is rotten and, really, if that was happening in your kitchen, you might just want to throw that mess into the garbage, not fix it. Because Hexagram 18 means that someone must make an effort to repair the damage. It is not going to repair itself.

Also, sometimes with hexagram 18 it is not clear who is to do the fixing, as there is all this talk of "the damage done by the father" and the "damage done by the mother." Some translations call this hexagram "Illness," and say that the son must go home to tend to his father, who is ill, and so forth. Such formidable obstacles to finding the correct interpretation!

It is okay to throw the I Ching when feeling frightened and confused, of course, but I have found that it is a mistake to throw the I Ching when I am angry. That will skew the results in a different direction. Let me paraphrase Hilary on this: "When I am angry, I already know the answer." So true. That's why it's a good practice to meditate or calm down before throwing the I Ching. That practice will also help with the interpretation of the lines, because we tend to understand the lines to say what we want them to say, not what they actually do say.