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What must I sacrifice? 22.1.2- changing to 23

lslater

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Hello all,

I need a little help with this one. I think I know what it means but I would like the insight of others as well, so thanks in advance to all who reply. I asked Yi what I needed to sacrifice in order to for true love to come into my life. I have been divorced for 15 months and was separated before that for 8 months, so 23 all together. I frequently get hex 22 for different questions. Anyhow, I feel strongly for a certain person, but we don't speak. Other than that, I am still having a hard time letting go of my ex-husband of 12 years. We have 2 kids together and he is a very wonderful man. I have struggled with abandonment and rejection issues most of my life due to daddy and peer reasons. I left my ex-husband because I was restless and felt we had grown apart- and yes there was an affair involved. He is still wiling to take me back though and I don't encourage or discourage it. I am having great difficulty committing to the choice to come back or let go. After the affair ended (which I left my ex before I ever started having it, though we were not legally divorced yet), I met someone who I dated for a while but it didn't work out due to the emotional turmoil I had put myself and others through- I wasn't over things, which turned the guy off and then of course I became clinging when he started backing away. Anyhow, I still care about him but he doesn't want to speak to me. He says he needs separation for a good 6-12 months. And again- there is my ex-husband who is a wonderful father and a caring person- who still loves me. I don't feel like I deserve that love though and am having an even harder time wanting it. Despite all this, I am doing a lot better these days emotionally, but I still have my struggles. Today I heard a line on a movie that stated that love is not true without sacrifice, which really hit home. So this is where the question for Yi came from. Yes- it is a loaded situation but I thought a brief background might give further insight.
 

icastes

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In great part, 22 is about fraud and deception that occurs at a marriage. Someone is hiding something, and apparently it is you. The gua overall is about decoration and adornment. That your husband is willing to take you back is also indicated as 22's moving lines are about a man adorning himself in preparation of being married on that day. But he doesn't realize that this marriage is a mess no matter what and really only one-sided. The other man, the adultery, has been driven away, and don't expect him to come back. In either case, if you are correct about the moving lines, then the subsequent hexagram is 18, not 23, which is just a little better than the very bad 23. The love affair is better severed, as there is too much distress associated with it. The former lover obviously sees that. As for the husband, the marriage has too many problems and it is unlikely to work out if you go back. To make any of this work does not require sacrifice except in the sense that you have to come to your senses. 18, by the way, frequently means that there is an illicit affair love entanglement involved that spoils everything. If you need therapeia (therapy in the ancient sense, not the modern one), the 22 indicates that you need to do something artistic. Rather than looking for love in all the wrong places, you ought to settle down and do something that is adorning. It will help straighten you out. The 18 indicates that you must remove the spoilage of your life, before you go on.

If, however, the moving lines are 1 and 3, not 1 and 2, then 23 is an even more onerous hexagram for both love and marriage. It indicates not only the dirty affair, but it may mean that you will lose even more, probably in terms of material things, once the formal separation or divorce goes through. In any event, both your husband and the lover are not compatible with you: 23 drives the lover away and indicates no real way to make your former marriage work.

Time for you to get yourself together, and work out a decent separation agreement with your husband that is equitable and stay on the straight and narrow. Work on adorning your life and work on getting rid of all that is spoiled in your life. Then, you may move forward properly. Once you get yourself together, then you might be able to find some love. But to live for love alone is very unwise.
 

lslater

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Thanks Icastes,

My divorce has been final for quite sometime. There was never any deception either... my ex husband knew from the beginning about the other man. I left him BEFORE I began a relationship with him. Also... I am the one who broke it off with the man I had the affair with. I know he isn't the right on for me. It was after I ended the affair and after my divorce was finalized that I met someone else... this is a third player... I don't think you caught that. In any case, this all happened over a two year period. Hexagram 18 is incorrect... it is defitely 23. I typed the changing lines wrong- they are 1 and 3. I don't see 23 as bad though. I don't see any of the hexagrams as bad... only instructive as what needs to take place for renewal to occur. I am not in denial. I made mistakes and I am getting myself together, but it's taking longer than I would have ever imagined. My ex-husband knows EVERYTHING. He isn't willing to take me back with his eyes shut. He is aware of what I did and who I am and happens to be a good man, who despite the pain that I caused him, sees the good in me. He doesn't define me based on the past two years. My problem is in going back... that I haven't really been able to be alone even though I am alone... if that makes any sense. Before I left my ex husband, I told him I needed to learn to be alone. That's what the affair was really about. I always knew that wouldn't last and didn't want it to... it was too distracting to the real purpose of the split with my husband. But then I met this other guy... which has been the biggest obstacle. I had been divorced for 8 months when we met so it wasn't a bad or hurtful thing as far as my ex husband goes. But I had not forgiven myself for everything and even though I didn't want to admit it.... wasn't truly over the father of my children and my partner of 12yrs.

I didn't post this to bring more shame on myself. I have been harder on myself than anyone else through this... I even became suicidal due to the guilt before the divorce was final. I chose to live for my kids. But I, like the rest of the human race, desire true love and now know that I deserve it. I never felt deserving of my ex husband's love. This love may be found in my relationship to my daughters... it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic love.
 
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Trojina

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In great part, 22 is about fraud and deception that occurs at a marriage. Someone is hiding something, and apparently it is you. The gua overall is about decoration and adornment. That your husband is willing to take you back is also indicated as 22's moving lines are about a man adorning himself in preparation of being married on that day. But he doesn't realize that this marriage is a mess no matter what and really only one-sided. The other man, the adultery, has been driven away, and don't expect him to come back. In either case, if you are correct about the moving lines, then the subsequent hexagram is 18, not 23, which is just a little better than the very bad 23. The love affair is better severed, as there is too much distress associated with it. The former lover obviously sees that. As for the husband, the marriage has too many problems and it is unlikely to work out if you go back. To make any of this work does not require sacrifice except in the sense that you have to come to your senses. 18, by the way, frequently means that there is an illicit affair love entanglement involved that spoils everything. If you need therapeia (therapy in the ancient sense, not the modern one), the 22 indicates that you need to do something artistic. Rather than looking for love in all the wrong places, you ought to settle down and do something that is adorning. It will help straighten you out. The 18 indicates that you must remove the spoilage of your life, before you go on.

If, however, the moving lines are 1 and 3, not 1 and 2, then 23 is an even more onerous hexagram for both love and marriage. It indicates not only the dirty affair, but it may mean that you will lose even more, probably in terms of material things, once the formal separation or divorce goes through. In any event, both your husband and the lover are not compatible with you: 23 drives the lover away and indicates no real way to make your former marriage work.

Time for you to get yourself together, and work out a decent separation agreement with your husband that is equitable and stay on the straight and narrow. Work on adorning your life and work on getting rid of all that is spoiled in your life. Then, you may move forward properly. Once you get yourself together, then you might be able to find some love. But to live for love alone is very unwise.

Icastes sometimes I wonder how you come to such conclusions ? What translation/version/commentary are you using, or is there a particular Yi school of thought you are coming from ? Its just I never heard before that 22 is about 'fraud and deception that occurs at a marriage"
 
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Trojina

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Hello all,

I am having great difficulty committing to the choice to come back or let go. After the affair ended (which I left my ex before I ever started having it, though we were not legally divorced yet), I met someone who I dated for a while but it didn't work out due to the emotional turmoil I had put myself and others through- I wasn't over things, which turned the guy off and then of course I became clinging when he started backing away. Anyhow, I still care about him but he doesn't want to speak to me. He says he needs separation for a good 6-12 months. And again- there is my ex-husband who is a wonderful father and a caring person- who still loves me. I don't feel like I deserve that love though and am having an even harder time wanting it. Despite all this, I am doing a lot better these days emotionally, but I still have my struggles. Today I heard a line on a movie that stated that love is not true without sacrifice, which really hit home. So this is where the question for Yi came from. Yes- it is a loaded situation but I thought a brief background might give further insight.

Thanks Icastes,

My divorce has been final for quite sometime. There was never any deception either... my ex husband knew from the beginning about the other man. I left him BEFORE I began a relationship with him. Also... I am the one who broke it off with the man I had the affair with. I know he isn't the right on for me. It was after I ended the affair and after my divorce was finalized that I met someone else... this is a third player... I don't think you caught that. In any case, this all happened over a two year period. Hexagram 18 is incorrect... it is defitely 23. I typed the changing lines wrong- they are 1 and 3. I don't see 23 as bad though. I don't see any of the hexagrams as bad... only instructive as what needs to take place for renewal to occur. I am not in denial. I made mistakes and I am getting myself together, but it's taking longer than I would have ever imagined. My ex-husband knows EVERYTHING. He isn't willing to take me back with his eyes shut. He is aware of what I did and who I am and happens to be a good man, who despite the pain that I caused him, sees the good in me. He doesn't define me based on the past two years. My problem is in going back... that I haven't really been able to be alone even though I am alone... if that makes any sense. Before I left my ex husband, I told him I needed to learn to be alone. That's what the affair was really about. I always knew that wouldn't last and didn't want it to... it was too distracting to the real purpose of the split with my husband. But then I met this other guy... which has been the biggest obstacle. I had been divorced for 8 months when we met so it wasn't a bad or hurtful thing as far as my ex husband goes. But I had not forgiven myself for everything and even though I didn't want to admit it.... wasn't truly over the father of my children and my partner of 12yrs.

I didn't post this to bring more shame on myself. I have been harder on myself than anyone else through this... I even became suicidal due to the guilt before the divorce was final. I chose to live for my kids. But I, like the rest of the human race, desire true love and now know that I deserve it. I never felt deserving of my ex husband's love. This love may be found in my relationship to my daughters... it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic love.

It was quite a heavy question "what do I need to sacrifice to find true love ?" And in the aftermath of broken relationships everyone struggles with masses of guilt....so you sound heavy hearted, and you question is serious.....and Yi answers you with 22.1.3.>23:) Yi is lighter about this question than you are LOL

I think behind you, as the context theres 23 where all that has worn out has fallen apart, old concepts, old ways of relating...all a very painful erosion....and now ? 22 ?


I think its time for a bit of lightness, time to really take things at their own pace (22.1)

You know i really would take that quote about this sacrifice for true love with a pinch of salt because I think it taps into your insecurities about deserving love at all.. As if you have to pay a heavy price if you want to be loved. Well i guess love does make sacrifices....but doesn't mean to say we have to sacrifice to be loved. What sacrifice do little kids and puppies make yet everyone loves them


I think its a great idea to learn to be alone rather than rush to someone else to make you happy. For if you can be alone it gives you the freedom to be choosy about who, when , where you next form a deep relationship. When things go wrong in relationships its good to have a break rather than just go and relate in the same way in another relationship.


But to the reading...well firstly I see the most basic message here for you is to 'lighten up', and do not saddle yourself with things you cannot carry yet....such as a load of old sacrifices. Walk at your own pace (22.1) and 22.3 often comes when things are going your way and you feel blessed and charmed with the caution being to appreciate its just a charmed situation, enjoy it, but don't lose yourself in it to the extent you lose sight of reality..or get drunk on it.

Now i can't see how 22.3 fits because you sound quite serious and you don't sound like you are having alot of fun......but maybe you could be having ??


I don't know how 22.3 fits...but anyway I feel you may be better to simplify your considerations rather than complicate them with someone else ideas about sacrifice. I can't think of an answer i'd associate less with sacrifice than 22 ! I think you did all your sacrificing in 23, I think you may have already sacrificed a good deal on an inner level...and now the ground is bare (23) its time to grow some flowers (22, i think Lise calls 22 'flower power)

As you said love isn't confined soley to romantic relations at all anyway...loving yourself is another way.


I and others on RC have given much thought to this combination 22.1.3>23 and theres many ways to look at it....but overall sacrifice for you right now is heavy concept...if you look back you will probably see you already made quite a few. maybe its time to attend to the pleasanter side of things...a bit of frivolity even ?
 
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lslater

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Thank you for that Trojan... I found it very helpful. :bows:

PS: changing line 3 might have to do with some good friends who have recently come into my life as well as some exploring of my physical environment that I have been engaging in (lots of hiking). I am also taking a an extremely interesting course at the local university.
 

rosada

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What must I sacrifice in order for true love to come into my life?

22.1.3 > 23

22.1
He lends grace to his toes, leaves the carriage and walks.

This line suggests something must be sacrificed so that Love can come in. It sounds we're being reminded that love comes in all forms and sometimes we don't recognize it because we assumed that our true love would arrive in a carriage, or be a certain age, or sex. We must first give up our notions about what Love will look like an honor Love in all it's forms.

I wonder to if perhaps this line is referring to your still apparently close connection to your children's father. If you are relying on him for anything beyond the friendship of the co-parent perhaps you are being notified you mustn't rely on this "carriage" or you will get used to it, and not recognize the potential in a relationship where you may have to do with less.

22.3
Graceful and moist.
Constant perseverance brings good fortune.

Rather than urging you to sacrifice, this line says to me that you must not become a wastrel.

Thus line 22.1 says keep it simple, be natural, be yourself but 22.3 says don't be so relaxed, dissipated, you can't even take care of the basics.

I think of the line, "When money flies out the window, love runs out the door."

These two lines lead to hexagram 23. Splitting Apart.
It's in interesting visual when you look at the images and trigrams. 22. is a fire beneath a mountain, suggesting the warm glow of a campfire in the mountains. Change lines 1 and 3 erase the fire trigram and change it to earth. It's as if the fire has gone out and all that is left is the cold bleak mountain of 23. So I see this combo as containing a lesson on how it happens that where once there was love if the fire is not tended it will go out. So how to keep the fire burning?

23. Splitting Apart advises Those above can ensure their position only by giving generously to those below. This also can be read as giving advice on sacrifice - the importance of "giving generously to those below." But what to give? The lines seem to discuss both the options of splitting when it becomes obvious the situation is unworkable, 23.3, or staying on and giving everything you have even your very life as in 23.5.

So combined these hexagrams say to me that in order for love to come into your life you must simplify your life, whether this means giving up your need for the partner's undying devotion or your questionable connections to the ex or just whatever you may be dragging around that isn't you, get down to basics.

Next, enjoy pleasant moments, don't expect too much from Love.

tbd
 
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Trojina

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I really like the point about 22.1 there Rosada, I'd missed that. Of course one has to give up the carriage !
 

lslater

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Hello Rosada,

Thank you for your time and interpretation. :bows: I think it is right on. I have lots to consider.

PS: you kept quoting hex 21, but the changing lines were in regard to 22- was this a typo?
 

rosada

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Yes, a typo. I'll go back and edit that.
Meant to say more but got called away.

I am seeing how 23. Stripping Away could be read as a meditation on the whole nature of sacrifice. You could plug in the story of Christ offering himself as a sacrifice:

23.1 Slander and intrigue.
23.2 Danger draws close.
23.3 The garden in Gethsemane. He could leave and no blame but he asks God's will be done.
23.4 Capture.
23.5. The Last Supper? Or the Crucifiction?
23.6 The soul survives. Christ rises to heaven. Not so good for lesser men..

Anyway, as to your relationship, I think 23. tells us all must ultimately be sacrificed but i think 22.3 tells us we don't have to do it all at once..

Best wishes,
Rosada
 
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Trojina

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Yes, a typo. I'll go back and edit that.
Meant to say more but got called away.

I am seeing how 23. Stripping Away could be read as a meditation on the whole nature of sacrifice. You could plug in the story of Christ offering himself as a sacrifice:

23.1 Slander and intrigue.
23.2 Danger draws close.
23.3 The garden in Gethsemane. He could leave and no blame but he asks God's will be done.
23.4 Capture.
23.5. The Last Supper? Or the Crucifiction?
23.6 The soul survives. Christ rises to heaven. Not so good for lesser men..

Anyway, as to your relationship, I think 23. tells us all must ultimately be sacrificed but i think 21.3 tells us we don't have to do it all at once..

Best wishes,
Rosada

you did it again...another typo ...now did you mean 22.3 ?


Do you have some kind of thing about hex 21 ? ;)
 

rosada

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musings..

Still thinking about these hexagrams.

Thinking about how 22. Grace often triggers thoughts of deception. It seems to me that the lower trigram of fire could represent one person, and the upper trigram mountain represents a boundary or limit. Thus the idea of one person with limited awareness of what the other person is really all about. I think of a school girl having a crush on a movie star. She really has only her fantasy of who the movie star is. So the deception is caused by one's own lack of knowing who the other person really is.

Interesting to look at the other hexagrams with Fire as the bottom trigram. Seems to show the different ways Self is brought out into the world. When a person feels strong and confident Fire + Heaven they are more open to Fellowship, 13. But when we are only showing a part of ourselves Fire (self) + Mountain (boundaries) we are more susceptible to being fooled, we only see what we want to see.

13. Self-Heaven, Creation - God creates man for = Fellowship.
22. Self-Limited Expression creates Fantasy, Delusion?
30. Self-Other Selves creates Mutual Dependence?
36. Self - Hidden requires Perseverance
37. Self-Gentle Development creates Family
49. Self-Opposed creates Revolution.
55. Self - Openly Expressed creates clarity, this is me, right or wrong!
63. Self - Danger creates The Man and The Challange

Well, thanks for reading this.
Rosada
 
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icastes

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Icastes sometimes I wonder how you come to such conclusions ? What translation/version/commentary are you using, or is there a particular Yi school of thought you are coming from ? Its just I never heard before that 22 is about 'fraud and deception that occurs at a marriage"

The hexagram 22 is about a marriage ceremony about to take place and the promises made before the marriage. After all, we are talking about ancient China, not modern times. Depending on what translation you are using, you will find that the first lines are about adorning, particularly the adorning of the groom who is moistening his beard, etc.. The fifth moving line is about the family of the bride who is supposed to provide gifts, gifts that attest to the financial and social positioning of the family. However, their gifts are niggardly presented, meaning that the groom who had expected a lot more does not get what he was promised. Yet, it all turns out okay. Thus, 22, between the lines, is a warning to look over the promised spouse very carefully before you agree to the match. The family may be lying; what is promised will not be given. You don't need any special school of Yi to see the deception involved. The hexagram is very clear about what is going on. Moreover, I should point out that the Yi is not very encouraging about marriage generally. It is something that has to be done with great care as marriage is an institution that is very precarious for all parties concerned.
 

rosada

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Thanks for writing out this explanation, Icastes.

That idea about the importance of looking over the promised partner very carefully would fit with my sense the trigram for fire below is blocked by the trigram mountain above and thus is not seeing the other person and thus being vulnerable to deception. I see this as being more a warning about self- deception, but not necessarily a warning that we are being intentionally deceived.

Maybe it is sacrilegious to suggest this...but I don't think we need feel we have to know the original Chinese interpretation of a hexagram to get it's message. Thus, I think while one can see hex.22 as describing preparation for a marriage ceremony, I don't think it's necessary and maybe not even healthy to assume this one plot line is the only one. I think it's preferable to look at these hexagrams as energy patterns that can manifest in an infinite number of ways. Perhaps in ancient China 22. was seen as a warning that one might be deceived. Perhaps our understanding has grown in the last 5,000 years and we now recognize when there is fire below and mountain above we need to ask questions, explore, and that if there is deception the blame lies with our own refusal to seek the truth.

Rosada
 
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lslater

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Rosada,

That is a beautiful analogy and one that is definitely worth meditating on. Just today I got invited to a women's study group. we are going to study a book on how to open up our personal creativity. Perhaps another blessing regarding 22.3?

Thanks!
 

lslater

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Oh yes... Rosada... your thoughts regarding hex 22 are along the lines of what I was originally thinking. And it is interesting because when I was married I always told my spouse that if he ever truly understood who I was he would have never married me and that if he understood me "now" that he would not want to stay with me. I think to some degree I was deceiving myself, but that those negative thoughts manifested into reality. After I left him he did see my dark side, but interestingly was always willing to let me come home.

So perhaps this Hex is as much about his self-deception as mine. Maybe he is willing to accept these things because deep down he feels unworthy of better as well. Sad though, because in my heart I know that we are both very worthy, but my mind/ego rebels against this notion every chance it can get. Perhaps Hex 23 will be the path to alignment of heart and mind. 22.3 speaks of blessings and I have plenty of those available to me now. If I accept them as a conduit to accomplishing the objective of hex 23 then freedom can result.

I like your analogy of Christ. Accepting the grace he offers (line 3 of 22) as a covering to the vanity in which we are all subjected to, can be key in rising above this ego-realm into the eternal realm., which is also a component of hex 22: beauty without does not necessarily denote beauty within- we must find it through grace. "the knigdom of heaven is within". This is a challenge, which involves exposing the ego for what it is ... a imposter posing as our true selves (Hex 23).
 

icastes

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Thanks for writing out this explanation, Icastes.

That idea about the importance of looking over the promised partner very carefully would fit with my sense the trigram for fire below is blocked by the trigram mountain above and thus is not seeing the other person and thus being vulnerable to deception. I see this as being more a warning about self- deception, but not necessarily a warning that we are being intentionally deceived.

Maybe it is sacrilegious to suggest this...but I don't think we need feel we have to know the original Chinese interpretation of a hexagram to get it's message. Thus, I think while one can see hex.22 as describing preparation for a marriage ceremony, I don't think it's necessary and maybe not even healthy to assume this one plot line is the only one. I think it's preferable to look at these hexagrams as energy patterns that can manifest in an infinite number of ways. Perhaps in ancient China 22. was seen as a warning that one might be deceived. Perhaps our understanding has grown in the last 5,000 years and we now recognize when there is fire below and mountain above we need to ask questions, explore, and that if there is deception the blame lies with our own refusal to seek the truth.

Rosada

Yet, the Yi is a book that incorporates a lot of history, folk tales, politics, comments on behavior, and so on. Some gua, like 22, are a story which must be read between the lines. Your approach, while commendable in principle, in practice is too abstract and dependent upon a specialized knowledge of the world that is not available readily to many people. When the question is about a particular, it must be answered in the particular to make sense. One can look at anything in the world, an arrangement of flowers or the flight of a bird and divine from that. However, learning how to do that requires great development of the intuition. That is why the Yi works so well, as it makes concrete through stories or advice or even humor by grounding the questioner's problem in a concrete situation from long ago. And it doesn't hurt to understand the past and its institutions as modernity has a great many philosophical and practical flaws that the ancients address with far more realism.
 

Trojina

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The hexagram 22 is about a marriage ceremony about to take place and the promises made before the marriage. After all, we are talking about ancient China, not modern times. Depending on what translation you are using, you will find that the first lines are about adorning, particularly the adorning of the groom who is moistening his beard, etc.. The fifth moving line is about the family of the bride who is supposed to provide gifts, gifts that attest to the financial and social positioning of the family. However, their gifts are niggardly presented, meaning that the groom who had expected a lot more does not get what he was promised. Yet, it all turns out okay. Thus, 22, between the lines, is a warning to look over the promised spouse very carefully before you agree to the match. The family may be lying; what is promised will not be given. You don't need any special school of Yi to see the deception involved. The hexagram is very clear about what is going on. Moreover, I should point out that the Yi is not very encouraging about marriage generally. It is something that has to be done with great care as marriage is an institution that is very precarious for all parties concerned.

Thanks for the explanation. I haven't heard this emphasis on deception in marriage in 22 before. I could see some self deception in 22.3 perhaps, perhaps appearances, relying on appearances, being deceptive but thats only one small possibility of 22 I thought.
 

Trojina

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Oh yes... Rosada... your thoughts regarding hex 22 are along the lines of what I was originally thinking. And it is interesting because when I was married I always told my spouse that if he ever truly understood who I was he would have never married me and that if he understood me "now" that he would not want to stay with me. I think to some degree I was deceiving myself, but that those negative thoughts manifested into reality. After I left him he did see my dark side, but interestingly was always willing to let me come home.

So perhaps this Hex is as much about his self-deception as mine. Maybe he is willing to accept these things because deep down he feels unworthy of better as well. Sad though, because in my heart I know that we are both very worthy, but my mind/ego rebels against this notion every chance it can get. Perhaps Hex 23 will be the path to alignment of heart and mind. 22.3 speaks of blessings and I have plenty of those available to me now. If I accept them as a conduit to accomplishing the objective of hex 23 then freedom can result.
I like your analogy of Christ. Accepting the grace he offers (line 3 of 22) as a covering to the vanity in which we are all subjected to, can be key in rising above this ego-realm into the eternal realm., which is also a component of hex 22: beauty without does not necessarily denote beauty within- we must find it through grace. "the knigdom of heaven is within". This is a challenge, which involves exposing the ego for what it is ... a imposter posing as our true selves (Hex 23).

Because i really don't see the relating hexagram as an outcome then I can't see 23 as the objective. The relating hexagram is where you are coming from when you put the question, not the objective. You aren't heading for 23 you are already dwelling in it and the 22.1.3 is imposed against that 23 backdrop IMO. Everyone sees this differently of course.....
 

Trojina

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Yet, the Yi is a book that incorporates a lot of history, folk tales, politics, comments on behavior, and so on. Some gua, like 22, are a story which must be read between the lines. Your approach, while commendable in principle, in practice is too abstract and dependent upon a specialized knowledge of the world that is not available readily to many people. When the question is about a particular, it must be answered in the particular to make sense. One can look at anything in the world, an arrangement of flowers or the flight of a bird and divine from that. However, learning how to do that requires great development of the intuition. That is why the Yi works so well, as it makes concrete through stories or advice or even humor by grounding the questioner's problem in a concrete situation from long ago. And it doesn't hurt to understand the past and its institutions as modernity has a great many philosophical and practical flaws that the ancients address with far more realism.

I don't understand the underlined in relation to Rosadas approach :confused: How is Rosadas approach "dependent on a specialized knowlege of the world that is not available readily to many people" Maybe this is a topic for exploring Divination rather than than here.
 

chingching

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Icastes, you line of reasoning does seem a little out of kilter

Rosadas response was methodical but not abstract. I think she addressed the sacrifice and what can come out of that really well, it made sense to me in regards to islater's original question

23 is the perfect way to deal with self deception too.
 

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