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What stimulation does my soul need for spiritual progress? 29.1->60

ragini

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Hello everyone, I hope you all are doing great. It's been a while since I have been here - mostly because I have been holding myself back from asking (too many) questions about my readings from some time. Not sure why I have been doing that though. Well, I guess it must be a phase, but I am back here and hopefully more regular now :hug:

Today morning I asked the Yi what stimulation does my soul need to make spiritual progress. This question was prompted by an earlier question where I had asked what should I do to purify my soul for spirituality. The Yi surprised me with 60.6, which I interpreted as - your soul needs stimulation, do not smother it. The answer reminded me of Hermen Hesse's book 'Siddhartha'.

But the answer also made me wonder what kind of stimulation I needed; 29.1; OMG! I didn't ask for that :duh:

I am reading this as - my life circumstances will give me all the stimulation I need by throwing me in the abyss. It's certainly true, if my past is anything to go by.

Any thoughts???
 

themulberrytree

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I disagree with your first interpretation of Hexagram 60.6. I think it refers to the idea that you have already limited yourself in your quest for spiritual progress enough. In paying attention to yourself enough, you will see that this way cannot continue; it's too harsh to be sustainable. So let go of it, and let it be. Instead, let your "inner truth" be your limit. This is said out of some measure of personal experience with this line, and to some extent out of your measure of "I have been holding myself back from asking too many questions about my readings from some time -- not sure why I have been doing that though."

It might be good to explore that. Do you have certain ideals of the way you should be that caused you to limit your use of the I Ching? How do you feel about "over-using" the I Ching? If it doesn't feel good and you know, then it won't feel like much of a limitation. Because you will instinctively want to avoid negative feelings. If it feels all right, then let it be. If you still feel that there's something off about your usage, you could consider why you want to rely on it and go from there, instead of forcing yourself to stop. Perhaps low self-esteem? Explore yourself and your motivations more deeply.

Hexagram 29.1 leads to 60 again. 60 indicates limitations of some sort, limited by the abyss? 29.1 indicates falling further into an abyss; misfortune is indicated right in the line. You talk about past situations showing you that you will get all the stimulation you need through an abyss. So your past has been an abyss. An "abyss" does not have good connotations (stagnation, death), but you speak of it as though an abyss is the only way to learn, perhaps because it's the only way you've known. And so you fall further into the abyss. My guess is that you've never gotten out of the abyss of your past, walked on dry land, let the nurturing of the earth be your guide. You are still limited by the abyss. Get some stimulation from outside the confines of the abyss. Move on to a new life.

Overall, I'd say, "Let go of your limitations and live as you are."
 

ginnie

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60.6: The soul does not need to be purified to begin a practice of spirituality. One just starts from the place you're already at.

29.1: The soul does not need stimulation to progress. That idea is a pitfall. The highest value for the soul is peace, not stimulation. You need to set aside peaceful time for yourself, perhaps to meditate.
 

ragini

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I disagree with your first interpretation of Hexagram 60.6. I think it refers to the idea that you have already limited yourself in your quest for spiritual progress enough. In paying attention to yourself enough, you will see that this way cannot continue; it's too harsh to be sustainable. So let go of it, and let it be. Instead, let your "inner truth" be your limit.
Thank you themulberrytree for your beautiful interpretation. I have indeed been limiting myself from a very long time. It's as if I have become conditioned to limit myself now - because everytime I tried to do something that I wanted to, I was swatted by my destiny. It sounds funny but I almost felt like, if I tried to use my free will to make a phone call to a friend, my destiny would at best find a way to prevent me from making that phone call, or at worst the conversation would somehow create trouble for my friend or me. But this is just one example. Most of my life has had this pattern in pretty much everything. Any desire to experience the simplest of joys was swiftly put down.

You are also right about self esteem issues. I think I was born with self esteem issues, and then almost every life experience only served to reinforce them. When every attempt to do anything -- from the smallest to the largest action -- ends up in a mess, you start questionng your own capability or self worth.

You are right, I do have to stop limiting myself (I have received "waiting in blood get out of the pit" plenty of times recently), but I am clueless about how that can happen.


but you speak of it as though an abyss is the only way to learn, perhaps because it's the only way you've known. And so you fall further into the abyss. My guess is that you've never gotten out of the abyss of your past, walked on dry land, let the nurturing of the earth be your guide. You are still limited by the abyss. Get some stimulation from outside the confines of the abyss. Move on to a new life.

Overall, I'd say, "Let go of your limitations and live as you are."
Ha ha, really the abyss is the only thing I have known for a very long time. If I tried walking on the nurturing earth, I think it will open under my feet and throw me into the abyss. Maybe it's not that bad, but it feels that way to me right now.

Your answer helps me see what's wrong with my life, even though I am quite clueless about how it can be improved. I am going to need a little miracle to show me the nurturing earth :bows:
 

poised

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self-created illusions

Such a brave question, ragini. Why do you think your soul needs stimulation? It would seem that 29.1 points to an opposite direction…I went to The Modern Poet's I Ching for insight:


29.1 from the Modern Poet's Iching:

The material plane is a hard ride. Life, death, suffering-it seems so all-encompassing that we forget about it. We live with the pain, as if what we do doesn't matter. This is the line of drugs and alcohol as substitute for understanding and action.You are lost-no one likes to hear that-but it can happen to anyone. Don't be afraid to turn your back on doomed, self-created illusions. Get to know yourself-surprise yourself with a creative reaction to life. Therapy, philosophy, religion, education, work, people-find something in life and devote yourself to it."

Modern Poet's IChing: http://janan.members.sonic.net/ching/main.html

From the understanding of a poet, which seems appropriate for a question about soul, it would seem that you need to stop dwelling yourself as much as possible and find a creative approach to life, supported by devotion to people, philosophy, religion, therapy -- things or qualities external to the process of worrying about yourself.

Perhaps soul requires a degree of selflessness grow.

And perhaps a certain understanding of yourself can be obtained by directing your energy outward toward doing the best you can for people, ideas, work, religion, philosophy. It's my impression, from this line, that you cannot "stimulate" your soul by dwelling on yourself.

Perhaps your real inner soul strength is an ability, willingness, intention, to help those who cannot or will not help themselves.
 
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ragini

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60.6: The soul does not need to be purified to begin a practice of spirituality. One just starts from the place you're already at.

29.1: The soul does not need stimulation to progress. That idea is a pitfall. The highest value for the soul is peace, not stimulation. You need to set aside peaceful time for yourself, perhaps to meditate.
Thanks Ginnie, I think you went straight to the core. Are you an undercover lama?:hug::)
 

pocossin

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What stimulation does my soul need for spiritual progress?
29.1->60


Dig deeper.
 

rosada

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Your soul needs a challenge. 29.1 says you have become too accustomed to your situation. Your routine has become so routine that your perceptions have become dull around the edges. You need a bit of "danger" to sharpen your instincts, to clarify your intuition.

60. Limitation may give a clue as to what this challenge should be. Something that involves clear goals and boundary lines. Like having your own business. No one else can guide you but your own inner knowingness and thus you must pay attention to your soul's promptings. As you do, your soul is made strong - and you make money too!
 

ragini

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Thanks for introducing me to the poet's IChing, poised. Giving a creative reaction to life makes a lot of sense, especially from the place where I am stuck right now.

Perhaps soul requires a degree of selflessness grow.

And perhaps a certain understanding of yourself can be obtained by directing your energy outward toward doing the best you can for people, ideas, work, religion, philosophy. It's my impression, from this line, that you cannot "stimulate" your soul by dwelling on yourself.

Perhaps your real inner soul strength is an ability, willingness, intention, to help those who cannot or will not help themselves.
I have certainly been obsessed with the lack of direction of my life, maybe even to a point where it has sapped all my energy, so directing my energy outwards with selflessness is a great idea. Thanks :hug:
 

ragini

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Your soul needs a challenge. 29.1 says you have become too accustomed to your situation. Your routine has become so routine that your perceptions have become dull around the edges. You need a bit of "danger" to sharpen your instincts, to clarify your intuition.
Hey rosada, that's a very interesting take. Ummm maybe I need a challenge - I don't know. I am certainly in mud - stuck and motionless, so a challenge may get me out of the mire. I have been meaning to make some habit changes, so perhaps this is the right time to make a contract with myself and actually do them. It reminds me of something I read about how small successes matter a lot when we are trying to get out of a rut. Maybe that's what my soul needs to stimulate it - small successes - so it can see the light again.

Thanks:hug:
 
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sooo

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The question causes me to ask, what is spiritual? Either everything is divine or nothing is divine. There can't be divine here and no divine there. What does a soul need for spiritual progress? I think a paddle.

The River

It is when Siddhartha first visits the river that he realizes the spiritual power of natural things and this begins his own special journey into understanding the material world and the connections between all things. Each time he comes back to the river, it marks a new stage in his enlightenment. The first time he comes back, it is with great unease from living a rich life in town, and he desires to drown himself, but the river responds, sending him the word ‘om’ and showing him his own reflection. He seeks the ferryman, who shows him the power of listening. The ferryman has learned his wisdom from the river and it speaks to him in many voices. As Siddhartha learns to hear these voices and sees the visions of the river, he comes closer to contentment and greater natural wisdom. Eventually, after he has grieved to see his son refuse to live a ferryman’s life with him, Siddhartha learns the nature of eternity and wholeness from the river.
 

rosada

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How about editing my first response from Spiritual Challenges to Spiritual Opportunities? I think of Mother Teresa who took on such a mammoth calling and was successful at it because her attitude was always that she was doing this work for God. If a problem came up she would "simply" turn it over to God cause it wasn't her problem! So to stimulate spirit I think you are being encouraged to give sprit an opportunity to have a greater influence on your life and way of doing things. Take on a challenge that would be an opportunity for spirit to get involved. Example could be determining to do something that might be beyond your normal comfort zone and then using all your various spiritual "tools" (meditation, prayer, etc.) to open doors and guide you.
 

poised

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Soul stirring

Glad you like the poet's iching, ragini. It seems that poets are always looking for aspects of the soul in themselves and in the world. Perhaps you are a poet too?


“The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky,
No higher than the soul is high.
The heart can push the sea and land
Farther away on either hand;
The soul can split the sky in two,
And let the face of God shine through.
But East and West will pinch the heart
That can not keep them pushed apart;
And he whose soul is flat—the sky
Will cave in on him by and by.”


from the poem, "Renascence," by Edna St Vincent Millay
http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/renascence

I really love your questions ragini, very stimulating for all of us.

:bows:
:bows:
:bows:
 

ginnie

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every time I tried to do something that I wanted to, I was swatted by my destiny....if I tried to use my free will to make a phone call to a friend, my destiny would at best find a way to prevent me from making that phone call, or at worst the conversation would somehow create trouble for my friend or me. But this is just one example. Most of my life has had this pattern in pretty much everything. Any desire to experience the simplest of joys was swiftly put down.
Most people have both strengths and weaknesses. Aren't there things that you are good at, to balance the things you're bad at? For example, you mentioned having difficulties with the telephone, but here you are on the online forum, communicating beautifully ... I'm just wondering if you're taking too negative a view of yourself!

Challenges and obstacles in a person's life are indicated by the placement of Saturn in the natal astrological chart. The opposite, good luck, is indicated by the placement of Jupiter. I'm not an astrologer, by the way; I'm just interested in some of the concepts, because they can be clarifying.
 

ragini

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The River

It is when Siddhartha first visits the river that he realizes the spiritual power of natural things and this begins his own special journey into understanding the material world and the connections between all things. Each time he comes back to the river, it marks a new stage in his enlightenment. The first time he comes back, it is with great unease from living a rich life in town, and he desires to drown himself, but the river responds, sending him the word ‘om’ and showing him his own reflection. He seeks the ferryman, who shows him the power of listening. The ferryman has learned his wisdom from the river and it speaks to him in many voices. As Siddhartha learns to hear these voices and sees the visions of the river, he comes closer to contentment and greater natural wisdom. Eventually, after he has grieved to see his son refuse to live a ferryman’s life with him, Siddhartha learns the nature of eternity and wholeness from the river.
I have been thinking about this for a long time sooo. It's a beautiful quote. Natural things have a lot of spiritual power as do the disasters of our own lives. I think my own life ( and all of ours ) are like a customized, personal teaching plan in spirituality.

I really love the part where every time Siddharta goes back to the river, it marks a new stage in his enlightenment. It's beautiful... so what is my river, or your river or everyone's river? Maybe it is the time spent in silent contemplation, or communing with nature or with the Yi. Maybe all of them and many more.

Contentment and natural wisdom... reminds me of something I read about Buddhism; it's all about removing and simplifying and unlearning; The Hexagrams 'Flow' and 'Decrease' and 'Keeping Still' and 'Inner Truth' come to mind.

Thanks :bows:
 

ragini

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How about editing my first response from Spiritual Challenges to Spiritual Opportunities?
I like spiritual opportunities - but to be honest I am clueless and bewildered about where I could find them, but I think I will... in some time... till then I will probably continue waiting and asking.

I need a little 'yes' to come from inside... I am really waiting for that right now.
 

rosada

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Thinking about what Spiritual Challenges or Opportunities might be…
Well, we usually rely on the outer world, the material physical world to give us guidance as to what we should do. For example, if an item costs a certain amount we check our wallet to help us decide if we should make the purchase. This is usually a good way to navigate. However there are times when the item is more than we intend to spend but the object seems so obviously what we need it's a bargain we feel we shouldn't pass up. So we put it on our credit card with the faith that all will be well. Or maybe we pass it up having faith that if it is meant for us the money will come and we will wait until it does. Or maybe we have plenty of money but the item isn't really good for us (another chocolate malt!) and then we really have to be spiritually strong to resist the outer world's signals that would lead us astray. So a spiritual challenge is when the outer material world is giving you feedback, guidance of one sort but your inner spiritual world is telling you something different and you want to follow and strengthen your inner guidance.

This is the season of Lent. An excellent time for taking on a spiritual challenge - usually people choose to give something up for Lent and then get to observe how their spirit is tested and hopefully triumphs. Like choosing to give up chocolate, then experiencing how much more attached to it they were than they realized and how many insidious opportunities come about to tempt one but then finally becoming so strong that they aren't tempted even when chocolate is put right in front of them.

Anyway, it doesn't have to be a big challenge, just note any opportunity you have to let your inner knowingness be stronger than the outer world negativity. "Feel the fear and do it anyway!"
 

ragini

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So a spiritual challenge is when the outer material world is giving you feedback, guidance of one sort but your inner spiritual world is telling you something different and you want to follow and strengthen your inner guidance.

This is the season of Lent. An excellent time for taking on a spiritual challenge -

....

"Feel the fear and do it anyway!"
This is a very nice thought rosada. Over the years I think I have developed an almost pathological craving for being appreciated and being seen as valuable, I know it's pathological because it has started distorting pretty much everything in my life - from my inner talk to the way I view the world, talk with people... everything!

It's time to let it go... something which should have been done a long time back. This year's Lent feels like the right time...
 

ragini

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Glad you like the poet's iching, ragini. It seems that poets are always looking for aspects of the soul in themselves and in the world. Perhaps you are a poet too?


“The world stands out on either side
No wider than the heart is wide;
Above the world is stretched the sky,
No higher than the soul is high.
The heart can push the sea and land
Farther away on either hand;
The soul can split the sky in two,
And let the face of God shine through.
But East and West will pinch the heart
That can not keep them pushed apart;
And he whose soul is flat—the sky
Will cave in on him by and by.”


from the poem, "Renascence," by Edna St Vincent Millay
http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/renascence

I really love your questions ragini, very stimulating for all of us.

:bows:
:bows:
:bows:
Hi poised, I used to enjoy poetry a lot, but somehow in recent years I seem to have lost interest in many things I used to enjoy.

The poem you have posted is very beautiful. I think you've stirred something in me - I remember loving the poem Skylark and The Passing of Arthur. God bless the Internet:) Both very beautiful poems. I hope you like them.

:hug::bows:
 

ragini

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Challenges and obstacles in a person's life are indicated by the placement of Saturn in the natal astrological chart. The opposite, good luck, is indicated by the placement of Jupiter. I'm not an astrologer, by the way; I'm just interested in some of the concepts, because they can be clarifying.
Hi ginnie, I guess my planets also indicate hardship. My vedic horoscope has Saturn in the first house of Taurus and Jupiter in the eight house of Sagittarius.

Like you, I too do not understand at a very deep level, but am familiar with some concepts. Obstacles, self-worth issues and struggles are certainly indicated by the position of Saturn.

Can you suggest some good online resources where I can understand the deeper meaning of the placements, their spiritual intent, and what conscious life choices a person can make keeping the placements in mind.

Thanks :bows:
 

MoonCatcher

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Hi there,

I think that the i-ching is telling you to stop all thoughts on this matter for now.

You seem to think that you are spiritually flawed in some way - in need of distilling your soul. It's almost as if you're trying to find a shortcut to reaching an elevated spiritual state.

The problem is, in my opinion - you are suffering from idealism. You have an idea of what spiritual perfection is; but it's just an idea. The i ching here is saying that there are limitations to what you can achieve in this
moment of your life.

I personally think spiritual progress is about having gratitude for very basic things; such as being alive and accepting the progress we've made so far.
 

rosada

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The image of 29 is worth noting. It is two yang lines bordered on each side by yin lines, so they appear to be stepping stones through a swamp. The image interpretation is very positive. It's about the superior man going about the business of guiding and teaching. So even though the Judgement appears to be scary, there is the reassurance that the superior man has walked his path for eons and knows how to spot the firm places and he gets across the water just fine. So it's all about stepping out in faith and finding the path rising up for you under your feet. At 28.1 however this sense of knowingness hasn't become stable yet. the seeker isn't able to easily judge how to get from rock to rock. I think of my friends who are experienced mountain climbers. "Come on," they urge while leaping across the abysses "It's easy!" Yeah, sure, if you've done it before and know what you're doing. Me, i have to get down on all fours and practically hug the earth a few times first. But once you get the hang of it you're fine. So I think of 29.1 as meaning

Stepping out in faith.
 
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sooo

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A Hindu story, as told by Joseph Campbell.

There is a wonderful story in the Upanishads about the god Indra. Now it happened at this time that a great monster had enclosed all the waters of the earth, so there was a terrible drought, and the world was in a very bad condition. It took Indra quite a while to realize that he had a box of thunderbolts and that all he had to do was drop a thunderbolt on the monster and blow him up. When he did that, the waters flowed, and the world was refreshed, and Indra said. “What a great boy am I”.

So, thinking, “What a great boy am I”, Indra goes up to the cosmic mountain, which is the central mountain in the world, and decides to build a palace worthy of such as he. The main carpenter of the gods goes to work on it, and in very quick order he gets the palace into pretty good condition. But every time Indra comes to inspect it, he had bigger ideas about how splendid and grandiose the palace should be. Finally, the carpenter says, “My god, we are both immortal, and there is no end to his desires. I am caught for eternity." So he decides to go Brahma, the creator god, and complain.

Brahma sits on a lotus, the symbol of divine energy and divine grace. The lotus grows from the navel of Vishnu, who is the sleeping god, whose dream is the universe. So the carpenter comes to the edge of the great lotus pond of the universe and tells his story to Brahma. Brahma says, "You go home. I will fix this up.” Brahma gets off his lotus and kneels down to address sleeping Vishnu. Vishnu just makes a gesture and says something like, “Listen, fly, something is going to happen.”

Next morning, at the gate of the palace that is being built, there appears a beautiful blue-black boy with a lot of children around him, just admiring his beauty. The porter at the gate of the new palace goes running to Indra, and Indra says, “Well, bring in the boy.” The boy is brought in, and Indra, the kind god, sitting on his throne, says, “Young man, welcome. And what brings you to my palace?” “Well," says the boy with a voice like thunder rolling on the horizon, “I have been told that you are building such a palace as no Indra before you ever built.” And Indra says, “Indras before me, young man – what are you talking about?”

The boy says, “Indras before you. I have seen them come and go, come and go. Just think, Vishnu sleeps in the cosmic ocean, and the lotus of the Universe grows from his navel. On the lotus sits Brahma, the creator. Brahma opens his eyes, and a world comes into being, governed by an Indra. Brahma closes his eye, and a world goes out of being. The life of a Brahma is four hundred and thirty-two thousand years. When he dies, the lotus goes back, and another lotus is formed, and another Brahma. Then think of the galaxies beyond galaxies in infinite space, each a lotus, with a Brahma sitting on it, opening his eyes, closing his eyes. And Indras? There may be wise men in your court who would volunteer to count the drops of water in the oceans of the world or the grains of sand on the beaches, but no one would count those Brahmin, let alone those Indras.”

While the boy is talking, an army of ants parades across the floor. The boy laughs when he sees them, and Indra’s hair stands on end, and he says to the boy, “Why do you laugh?”

The boy answers, “Dont ask unless you are willing to be hurt.”

Indra says, “I ask. Teach.”( That, by the way, is a good Oriental idea: you don’t teach until you are asked. You don’t force your mission down people’s throats.)

And so the boy points to the ants and says, “Former Indras all. Through many lifetimes they rise from the lowest conditions to the highest illumination. And then they drop their thunderbolt on a monster, and they think, ‘What a good boy am I.’ And down they go again.”
 

ginnie

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And then they drop their thunderbolt on a monster, and they think, ‘What a good boy am I.’ And down they go again.”
:rofl:

For astrological charts, I like the people at the A.R.E. in Virginia Beach, Virginia, USA. The ARE is the organization founded by Edgar Cayce. You can find the charts at www.ARECatalog.com.
 
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sooo

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Monsters always played a big role in Hindu mythology. The Gita had endless stories of Krishna's (the blue boy) victories over monsters, it became arduous after awhile to read through them with their elaborate and colorful depictions. They, in practical terms, could represent something as simple quitting smoking or other harmful influences. For most, even among the Hindu pantheon of gods and goddesses, pride was involved with such victories, even as we mortals typically feel superior for having overcome one of these monsters, thinking, what a good boy or girl am I! However, for the blue boy, who knew things like life and death were like the rising and setting of the sun and moon, there was only joyous detachment from the deeds. There is no end to monsters, nor the job of defeating them, so he was detached without losing his joy. It was all part of the dance. Life will always have monsters, and noble ones will always attempt to drop thunderbolts on them, and will wind up back into a pit, after priding upon their accomplishments. Every culture has their own local versions of this endless story, and a hero who refuses glory for victories over villains. The blue boy is an archetypal figure or model for a junzi to learn from. Always the greatest monster is pride.
 

ginnie

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I've edited the URL I posted earlier. Please make a note of the change.

For interpretation of astrological charts, I think no one does it better than the people at the Association for Research and Enlightenment, the ARE, founded by Edgar Cayce.
 

iams girl

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What stimulation does my soul need for spiritual progress? 29.1->60
I received 29.1>60 once for a monthly reading which really worried me because I was working in a dangerous environment at the time. The interpretation from reading others' threads that helped me the most was "limiting danger." It caused me to be more proactive about being cautious about my circumstances which I might otherwise have taken for granted and would have left me vulnerable to being caught off guard.

In your case, maybe thinking in terms of Maslow's hierarchy would help create the right synergy between your personal and spiritual life, especially with a focus on step 2, safety. Here's Wikipedia's version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
 

ragini

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A summary

A huge thanks to all of you for helping me with this reading. It's been a couple of weeks since I asked the Yi, and since then I have read, re-read all the answers, introspected and asked follow-up questions to the Yi.

I thought I'd write a summary of all the insights that have come to me in these past few days. I am not sure if these insights are correct, but I feel peaceful, and my heart seems to agree with them.

I think my original question, or at least the reasoning behind it, was somehow not quite correct.

The soul does not need stimulation, that idea is a pitfall ( thanks ginnie ).

What the soul really needs is peace ( ginnie once again :)), challenges/opportunities ( thanks rosada ), digging deeper ( thanks pocossin ), contentment, natural wisdom ( thanks sooo ), insight, compassion and nourishment and understanding.

Many of these are cultivated through mindfulness and compassion meditation, and the arts are a wonderful way to nourish the soul. Thanks poised, for introducing me to poetry.

Finally, there is always a balance to strike between reality and aspirations, which is best done by cultivating the wisdom to understand and honor limitations ( thanks iams girl for Maslow's hierarchy).
 
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Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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