What the heck, Yi???

[Liselle]

On the off chance that anyone looks or has a ridiculously impressive memory, I'll preface by acknowledging that often when I post questions here it is to complain. My experiences with the I Ching are not all bad; far from it, and I often do resist the urge to bother you all with my bellyaching (!). Right now, though, I am BEYOND FED UP (again).

I have a problem, the details of which I won't get into. I looked up some information on the internet, asked a few questions, and thought I might know what the problem is. But I just didn't feel like going any further, and my research had suggested a possible (if somewhat awkward) workaround.

Here's what I asked Yi:

Yi, what if I just [do x] for the time being? Any actual harm from doing that?

I just have no energy right now for poking into it, figuring it out, trying to fix it, etc. I just want to figure out how to solve the immediate problem [with a temporary, functional workaround].

I recognize that at some point it will become an untenable pain in the neck to [do x].

But what I want to know right now is, is there any actual HARM in doing that?

I got 7.1.4>54.

7.1 - not the most positive thing in the world, but not really bad, either. (From Hilary's book: "...it's important to ensure that all actions are in harmony with the goal. Yet it's equally important that the goal itself - however attractive - should be in harmony with your own nature and strengths.") I thought maybe it was acknowledging that this would be an imperfect workaround, but maybe the best I could do (or felt like doing) at the moment.

7.4 I thought was a very clear acknowledgement of my need for a temporary fix until I summon the motivation to do a better job.

So I did it - and ended up with a moderately-sized disaster.

Next question/rant (somewhat edited to keep this a family website):

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!? HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SAYING, "NO, THAT WON'T WORK"?!? HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF, YOU KNOW, NOVEL CONCEPT, ACTUALLY ANSWERING THE QUESTION IN, YOU KNOW, A USEFUL WAY?!?

Response: 23.1.3>22

I see 23.1 as patronizingly saying I should have already known that my workaround wouldn't work, without divining about it. That's when I REALLY got furious and decided to post this, because, OH SURE, I already knew it woudn't work, but because I love ruining my day SO MUCH, I did it anyway! (Of course I didn't know. As I said in the beginning, I got the idea from some information on the internet, and thought it might be worth trying, so I asked about it.)

23.3 just seems like more self-righteous preaching, but I'm not feeling very charitable right now.

Why does Yi pull stunts like this? Does anyone have any ideas, beyond saying "Ahh, it's mysterious"? And more to the point, how can we get it to not do things like this? For example, I really thought my question was okay and pretty straightforward ("Any harm in trying this?")

I guess what I really want is "How to guarantee consistently useful answers and no bad ones," which you're all probably going to say just isn't possible, that we can't "force" the I Ching's cooperation...but does anyone have any ideas anyway? :bag:

 

[eastern_girl]

Hi, Lisa,

A possible different interpretation for 7.1.4 to 54 that came to mind just now:

7.1. - unless you plan this very well, get organized, it won't work...
7.4 - ...and you'd better retreat

I see a NO for a temporary, hasty solution. I know, I'm not of much help here. Not what you wanted to hear. I could also be wrong, would like to hear more opinions too...but that's how I see it now, at a first glance.

 

[Trojina]

I think your first glance is right.

 

[Liselle]

I think your first glance is right.

I'm not sure what first glance you mean...?

 

[Trojina]

I meant Eastern Girl's first glance, her interpretation.

 

[Liselle]

Eastern_girl,

Yes, I can see how your interpretation makes sense, but even if I'd thought of it in exactly that way (7.1, I mean), I would have thought I was organized, etc. There wasn't really a lot of "planning" to be done - it was either try it or not. It was a pretty simple thing. I think I tried the thing once too often, but 7.1.4>54 doesn't say "don't go too far," either.

7.4 - At the time, I thought what I did was retreating. It was the temporary workaround that would save me having to really get into it right now. Doing absolutely nothing (probably how you are thinking of retreat) wasn't an option. (Well, there is still a Plan B, which is what I'm stuck with now, but it is a really, really BAD Plan B. The temporary workaround was a much better option.)

The larger point is that this reading didn't address my question. "Any harm in trying this?" "YES, A LOT OF HARM, IT WON'T WORK." Yi has various ways of communicating the idea that "THIS WON'T WORK, DON'T DO IT," but didn't say any such thing.

The problem here (unless I'm REALLY missing something), is with getting 7.1.4>54 at all - not with what nuanced spins can be put on it.

 

[Liselle]

Trojan,

Okay. I replied to Eastern Girl and discussed that - any comment?

Sigh. I know I'm being a pain. Maybe there is no good explanation.

 

[Trojina]

7.1 shows if your perceived goals aren't really in line with your long term aims then no matter how much effort you put in it isn't going to work. One can be extremely organised and methodical as one wants to be but if it's not a useful or sustainable goal then it won't work.

You can't blame Yi for the fact you didn't understand your answers.

As for this

I see 23.1 as patronizingly saying I should have already known that my workaround wouldn't work, without divining about it. That's when I REALLY got furious and decided to post this, because, OH SURE, I already knew it woudn't work, but because I love ruining my day SO MUCH, I did it anyway! (Of course I didn't know. As I said in the beginning, I got the idea from some information on the internet, and thought it might be worth trying, so I asked about it.)

23.3 just seems like more self-righteous preaching, but I'm not feeling very charitable right now.

Yi doesn't do 'self righteous preaching'...afterall does it really have a 'self' to be righteous about ? All the self righteousness you pick up will be from various commentaries and from inside your own head.

I used to see 62.1 like that....saying 'don't be too big for your boots' etc etc then one day I understood it could be meant another way when I heard the words of a song after receiving it "take care how you fly my precious you might fall down". We hear judgements that aren't actually there, especially via some commentaries.

23.3 is not self righteous....23.3 just advises it's okay to split with what is no good for you.

You took the words of some commentaries and applied them quite literally and got lost I think. Well everyone does, Yi is not always easy to understand......that is why we are all here chatting about it . If it were easy to understand, a shortcut instead of using your brain, with black and white answers requiring no input from you we wouldn't all still be posting on this forum year after year.


Still, getting angry with Yi is a good sign, usually.....it often means people chuck it on the scrap heap for a while but cannot quite forget it then come back later....and then later...and then later...and we still don't understand often...but we keep coming back.

 

[Trojina]

Trojan,

Okay. I replied to Eastern Girl and discussed that - any comment?

Sigh. I know I'm being a pain. Maybe there is no good explanation.

well I just tried a bit of explaining but once one is mad with Yi I think it has to run it's course. I had a few rows with it in the past and it used to give me 6.5. Now I rarely get mad with it as I can see the answers come as straight as they can be and there is truly none of this self righteous crap anywhere in the actual Yi.....only as I say in some commentaries and pre existing in our heads, the way we interpret it. Words of the Yi are separate thing from people's commentaries. It's important not to get hooked on commentaries, at least not before you have taken in Yi's words.

For 7.1 from Hilary's book these are simply 'The army sets out according to pitch-pipes, At odds with the strength of the army -pitfall' So there is mention of 'pitfall'. If you think about that image and forget any commentary what picture does it give you ? Marching to the wrong tune. I have had 7.1 when most earnestly pursuing a goal. I can see with hindsight whilst the effort was there it wasn't actually the right goal for me at the time.



Do you think, in time, you might come to forgive Yi ?

 

[eastern_girl]

Hi Lisa,

I understand, I'm not saying your interpretation is not ok. Only I see this in a different light. Let's agree to disagree.

To me 7.1.4 reads like this: either you go for the full solution to solve your problem (the hard way, which you wanted to avoid because it probably asks for serious planning, takes more time etc. etc.), or don't do anything at all. Just retreat and there will be no blame in that. You asked Yi for advice. I don't think 7.4. described what you had already decided (retreating from the full solution and searching for a temporary one). I think it was referring to the possible consequences, telling you that, if you didn't have the time or the mood to plan, organize and go for the full solution (the right one), it was ok to just stop for the moment. No blame.

I also see line 7.1. indicating a potential harm: it has a warning attached, it says if the order is not good, misfortune threatens (I used Wilhelm's translation here). By this, I understand going for the full, organized solution, not a temporary one. Temporary usually doesn't imply much planning, it's easy. But here it says that if you don't plan, you'll experience misfortune. Again, this is not an absolute truth , it's just my take or how I would have seen it if this had been my reading. Peace! :bows:

 

[Trojina]

and the 54 shows you were never actually very much in control of this scenario

 

[eastern_girl]

I've just seen Trojan's answer while posting mine. A much better explanation than mine. :bows:

 

[Liselle]

I do see what you're both saying, especially about 7.1 - marching to the wrong tune, a temporary fix is the wrong way to go, and so forth. That's valid, defensible, and in light of what happened, correct.

My biggest beef is that I still think how I interpreted it (both lines together) was also valid and defensible. Just that it was (minor point) WRONG.

It just doesn't seem like fair play to me to give a reading that could be defensibly interpreted in different ways, one of which makes the situation worse.

Do you think, in time, you might come to forgive Yi ?

Well, of course, ha ha. It does sprinkle in really great readings here and there, and then I hug it again. Also it's comforting to hear that you get (or got, in the past) angry with it, too. And I do see your point about how our own filters color how we interpret things.

Thanks to you both for your attention. I'm calmer now, at least. (This is a good thing, to not be actively spitting nails. My cats appreciate it too!)

 

[Liselle]

Eastern Girl,

You both made excellent points. Your analysis at 8:02 that if I couldn't tackle this today in the full and proper way, with good "order," it would be better to do nothing for now, was obviously correct. Wilhelm was probably a better source here. (I know it helps to read more than one translation, but I get LAZY.)

and the 54 shows you were never actually very much in control of this scenario

Excellent point. I totally ignored the relating hexagram

 

[Trojina]

lisa


I do see what you're both saying, especially about 7.1 - marching to the wrong tune, a temporary fix is the wrong way to go, and so forth. That's valid, defensible, and in light of what happened, correct.

My biggest beef is that I still think how I interpreted it (both lines together) was also valid and defensible. Just that it was (minor point) WRONG.

It just doesn't seem like fair play to me to give a reading that could be defensibly interpreted in different ways, one of which makes the situation worse.

I started a thread in CC a while back called 'the wrong readings bin'. This was a place where everyone could throw their wrong readings. As I recall a few times I started writing about a wrong reading, in the process of writing about what an absurd answer it was the answer gradually made sense...with hindsight. We can only see a tiny portion of the whole picture, that's our limitation as humans. Yi aids us in giving more of a picture....but it's not always a picture that is hastily pushing us one way or the other so we can avoid pain or distress and maximise happiness. Happiness isn't all. It's answering from a broader perspective. You think something went terribly wrong and you suffered. To me it looked like you didn't have a lot of power in the situation anyway...the strength of your intent wasn't wholly in line with the reality of your position. But the fact that you went ahead doesn't mean you were wrong...you just discovered something head on.

Personally I think there may bbe times Yi does this a kind of 'close down' where answers become meaningless but that's just sometimes when the lines are down...this happens sometimes and I can feel it...or it happens when one asks the same question so often it all becomes a bit meaningless. Here in your answer I do feel you were answered but you were given a picture of the situation, options not directions. Overall it's not a great answer to go full steam ahead....but what if Yi was just showing the situation as it was. You didn't have much of a say in things (54), you were out of synch with the reality (7.1) and you had to hold off (7.4) but that doesn't promise that if you had held off things would have been much better. You took a certain course of action and made a discovery about it.

In terms of us having limited perspective I always drag this story out from Brad which I like

bradford

This is a classic tale from China that scopes the oversimplification part of the problem

The Daoist Farmer
Adapted from the Huainanzi, circa 139 BCE

A farmer named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare which was praised far
and wide. One day this wonderful horse disappeared. The people of his village
offered sympathy to Sei Weng for his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply,
"What makes you think this is bad?"
A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a whole herd of wild
horses, led by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng for his
great good fortune. He said, "What makes you think this is good?"
Some time later, Sei Weng's only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and
broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei
Weng's misfortune. Sei Weng again said, "What makes you think this is bad?"
Soon after, a war broke out and all the young men of the village except Sei
Weng's lame son were drafted and sent into a horrible battle. The village people
were amazed as Sei Weng's good luck. But Sei Weng only replied, "What makes
you think this is good?"


Other parts of the problem are our infinite capacity for denial and our haste to see what we want to see. So we are well-advised to look at everything from at least two sides. This is partly why the Zhouyi text is loaded with so much irony, like chiding for weeding in 43.5 because the greens being weeded are so edible and easily grown.

Having said all that Yi can be damn annoying and plain rude at times....maybe we should have a section of the forum just to abuse it. I don't think it minds,

 

[Trojina]

Having said all that Yi can be damn annoying and plain rude at times....maybe we should have a section of the forum just to abuse it. I don't think it minds,

Sometimes I got so mad with Yi I almost used to do this to it

[video=youtube;mv0onXhyLlE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mv0onXhyLlE[/video]






I still have some Yi books ripped from the thrashing I gave them

 

[Liselle]

Video . Thrashing Yi is just about as effective. Even if the guy had used a sledgehammer, the car wouldn't care.

This all reminds me of a counselor I saw for a while. She'd tell me I was misinterpreting what she said, and it happened often enough that I eventually decided the problem was as much with her as with me. No one misinterprets someone that much without some shortcomings on both sides (imo). I guess I'd like if the "rules" for human-human communication pertained to human-Yi communication, and I guess they just don't.

The story from Bradford...I think I see the points: nothing is ever all good or all bad; if you zoom out far enough to look at a big enough picture, nothing matters that much, etc. 38.6 specifically covers part of that, I think - what looks bad really isn't. The problem is that I don't live my daily life on such a detached lofty plane. I actually care about my daily life. If I don't, who's going to?

It's an important message that you used to get angry with Yi and you don't anymore, and it's obviously not because you gave up on it . Maybe there is hope .

 

[Liselle]

The problem is that I don't live my daily life on such a detached lofty plane.

Although (it occurred to me after I posted)...I do catastrophize everything. Everything seems like a matter of life and death, and (objectively) most things aren't. Maybe a little detachment would be helpful. Accomplishing that, on the other hand ...

(It was the aforementioned counselor who pointed out that I catastrophize everything .)

 

[Trojina]

The problem is that I don't live my daily life on such a detached lofty plane. I actually care about my daily life. If I don't, who's going to?

nor do I live from a detached lofty plane, ...so for loftiness, an aerial view so to speak, I go to Yi, amongst other things, I don't think the story says not to care just that we can't see the whole picture so what appears to be misfortune often gives rise good fortune at a later date and vice versa. The constant see saw motion of cause and effect we cannot as humans always get a vantage point on, All that aside in daily life yes we need to care as a duty to ourselves, others, for basic survival purposes and to make it, our life as it is, the best we can, but having done the best we can at any given time according to our vantage point at that time the rest is somewhat beyond our perception....generally speaking.
At some points, having done the best we can it can still look like it makes no sense at all and at such times Yi's perspective comes in handy. It won't always be the exact same as our current perspective as if it was there would be no point consulting it. Heh then when it gives another perspective we get mad with it. Take money questions, Yi can be quite exasperating around those. After a series of 33s I once said out loud to Yi, or at least the copy of Wilhelm, 'well how the ***** do I make money by withdrawing...you tell me that oh it's okay for you you don't need money do you.....,,,,oh yes it's alright for you to say that...we don't see you pushing your shopping trolley around Sainsbury's do we...oh no..yes it's all very well for you to say that..'

then after beating Yi severely with a wooden spoon I had a nice cup of tea with some cut price biscuits

 

[Liselle]

(I mean, it's not actually funny, but...)

What is even worse, what you have said out loud to your Yi book, I have put into questions. I have also put into questions much of what Basil above is shouting to his car ("If you don't STRAIGHTEN UP...!!!"). In fact, my threats to Yi have on occasion been to expose its faults (gasp) IN THE FORUM. Because THAT will teach it, right? (Obviously I carried through this time, and guess who is chagrined?? :bag Naturally, I absorb EVERY OUNCE of meaning from the answers I get to such "questions."

Good news is I am calmer now about all this, thanks in large part to your insight, patience, and good humor (plus of course a dollop of time and a night's sleep).

(If Yi ever did explain to you how to make money, and you feel like passing it along...)

 

[Trojina]

My subconscious is so susceptible...after I had written that paragraph about Yi not having to push a shopping trolley I fell asleep....and dreamed...here we need some music and some wavy lines to indicate we enter dreamland........

I was shopping in a supermarket. My trolley had various items in it plus my shopping bags. Then a small oriental type looking man took my trolley as his own ! It was clearly my trolley, I had made no mistake. Those were my items in there that I had picked from the shelves and those were my shopping bags also on the trolley. This man just continued to use my trolley and claimed it was his. I may have complained to someone, I know there was a tussle, a fight of some kind and in the end I did reclaim my trolley but I was rather shocked and baffled as to why anyone would want someone else's shopping trolley. I mean you hand pick what you want for yourself don't you, it fits you it's not of much use to anyone else. Besides the goods were unpaid for, I was still going round the store so he wouldn't really benefit as he would if he stole the trolley after I had paid the cashier. I stood in a post office queue in the shop, with the trolley, somewhat baffled and wondering if this would happen again. Might he do it another time ?


Well at first glance the man has to be my representation of Yi doesn't it ? I had just written the shopping trolley post and there he was, pushing my trolley. I guess perhaps as if to say "actually I do push shopping trolleys" so it contradicts what I said to you earlier. The goods had to represent my choices, choices he apparently took away from me for a time. He actually took my shopping choices as his own and I fought with him to get them back.


Funny dream eh. Actually I think Yi does actually know all about shopping trolleys and difficult choices on limited resources and all the woes flesh is heir to. I think Yi is a caring oracle as come to think about it it has answered many of my minor concerns at least as compassionately as any kindly check out cashier....only with far more breadth and depth of vision than most cashiers. No disrespect to supermarket cashiers who interface with 100s of people each day and in their way impact on all those people they meet with. Anyway perhaps in some portion of my psyche I'm not happy to let Mr Yi have my shopping trolley of choices too long since I fought to get my trolley back.

 

[Liselle]

Fascinating dream. I can see how "taking away shopping choices" could help both financially and mentally. The more money one has, the more time and energy it takes to manage it. There is a line, though! I wouldn't want to be a gazillionaire with several houses and a bunch of employees for instance, because then your life becomes about babysitting all that, like running another business on top of whatever your real business is that makes you all the money in the first place. Ugh. HOWEVER, I could manage to deal with significantly more money than I currently have before running into that problem !

Okay, there have been too many shopping cart coincidences. I was going to share this very cute picture of a poor bereft trolley last night, and didn't because it's someone's snapshot that they posted on their twitter (which I realize is public but doesn't mean they want it circulating the internet). But you've mentioned shopping carts twice now, plus the fact that I recently saw it in the first place...anyway I can't figure out how to get the forum to post the picture inline, so it's just a link rather than emblazoned on the page. (BTW the source is British so it really is a proper "trolley" and not a "cart" )

View attachment 1034

Edited to add:

He actually took my shopping choices as his own and I fought with him to get them back.

I wonder if you'd let him keep it, if he would have paid for your stuff and then given it back to you? If only that would happen in real life!

 

[Trojina]

Yes that's the trolley the oriental gentleman (aka Yi) swiped off me in the dream. To be fair he could have been intending to do the shopping for me....but how would he know what I wanted...and besides he thought it was his trolley.

I shall be keeping an eye out for any further trolley synchronicities !

 

[Liselle]

This man just continued to use my trolley and claimed it was his.

Am blind...