When the top line changes...

[anita]

Hello Fellow Seekers,

Lately I've been getting several top line changes -- such as 23 line 6. I recall Marshall saying that the top line change means the change has already happened and have come across this concept again in a book I have on the I Ching by Da Lui - I Ching Coin Prediction. What say?

Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[gene]

I don't know Anita, I haven't run across that. Don't remember him talking about that either.

Gene

 

[cal val]

Anita...

That's if six lines change...not the 6th line changes.

"6 change: then the first hexagram's situation is entirely past or on the brink of change, the second hexagram is more important. Take the judgement."

Another thing Steve recommends is, in order to avoid ambiguity, read only one line. I think it was you who interpreted that he said read a certain line in the relating hexagram as well. Doing that just creates more ambiguity.

He said when 4 lines change, go over to the relating hexagram and read the lowermost of the two lines that have not changed in the first hexagram. When 5 lines change, go over to the relating hexagram and read the one line that didn't change in the first hexagram...that's instead of...not in addition to.

Gene...

It's on Steve's website.

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/basics.htm


Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[hilary]

Thanks, Val. It's also true that the sixth line is traditionally thought of as 'leaving' the situation, though in practice this seems to vary with the actual hexagram. Some are the extreme development (for good or ill), some are definitely moving on out. Whether this means that you are moving on out would depend on the question Yi was answering, of course.

One other thing: why would it be a good idea to avoid the answer's full, original complexity? Maybe your situation is exactly as complex as the answer says it is - so what would you gain by neatening things up?

 

[cal val]

Hilary...

My answer to Anita was brief. There's more. That's why I added the url to that section of Steven's site. His is a somewhat malleable guideline. And he does add that it's important to use your intuition.

I differ on one point Steve makes, and that is the lines are always the most important part of the reading. Usually yes...but not always. It depends on the question. My 10 to 27 for 10:27 is one example. That's one I will never forget. That's where I learned to be very flexible with the "rules."

Let's face it, when the Yi is telling me how to save my cat's life...not a lot of the lines in 27 and not a lot of the implications in 44 are going to be applicable. The key message there is to "seduce him back to eating."

It all comes down to common sense. Of course, common sense is a rare commodity when one is trying desperately to avoid an answer the Yi is trying to give us.

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[heylise]

I always look at the two hexagrams and let my intuition speak. Usually that is the best and most clear answer possible.
After that I look at the lines - if I need something more, or simply because I want to. But whatever the lines say, the two hexagrams are always the real answer to me. The lines give details, or extra advice, or clarification. But the big image is the two hexagrams.

LiSe

 

[anita]

Thanks, Val, Hilary and LiSe. Val, I know about all the lines changing, but in one of Steve's posts he'd given an example of some hex he'd received where only 6th line was moving and he realised the change had already happened.

Hilary, I suppose you're right about looking at all the lines but at times these contradict each other too much to take seriously. Then what happens?

Best for your Quest

Anita

 

[malka]

One of you wise, experienced souls once told me that reading the lines is like spotlights highlighting different aspects of the situation. This sounds great and all, and I believe it's even probably true. Yet in practical terms (What do I do? or What's going on here?) the conflicting pieces of information do make it difficult and confusing!

Blessings,
Malka

 

[hilary]

I haven't found any multiple line collections really confusing for a while now - maybe I'm just not asking the kind of question really to put myself on the spot, or maybe my life is very simple!

Anyway, when two lines pull in different directions and I asked for advice, I take them as alternative options: a choice of actions and outcomes. Actually, even if I asked for prediction, I'd usually take it in the same sort of way. When I really need instant advice, as often as not I seem to get one line, or no lines - Yi making allowances?

Recently, I keep finding that if I read through the lines in sequence, they sound like a single argument, as if I'm being led step by step through different perspectives until I get the point. Hopefully.

 

[dharma]

I agree with Hilary, there are times when I see multiple lines as a sequence of a single argument leading step-by-step through the different perspectives, but more often than not, I also see them as alternative choices that lead to different outcomes.

The most important thing I've learned about life as a result of using divinational tools is that we tend to expect the answers to our questions to always reflect one definitive direction - as if life were already pre-planned, our direction mapped out, and we merely lost our way and need to be reminded - but this is incorrect.

My intuitive sense, as well as experience, tells me that we have a strong hand in the way that our lives unfold based on the decisions and choices we make along the way. There are times when our lives arrive at a crossroads where the decision we make will set us on a completely different course than if we had chosen another.

If we feel confused by multiple lines it is probably because we have forgotten that every moment in life is a decision and that we have the power of choice. Therefore, conflicting lines reflect a conflicted mind being pulled in different directions each with the same power to pull into the lead if given exclusive focus over the others.

<CENTER>In Lak'ech
<FONT SIZE="-1">(Mayan code of honor)
"I am Another Yourself"</FONT></CENTER>

 

[django]

Hi all
I tend to see that multiple changing lines are not
all different "arrows" pointing in a narrow way to the querant's question, but on the contrary,trying to free the [Western] mind with its fixation on singular cause and effect, to a much broader "field" way of thinking. this broader view is alien to the Western mind [imo], hence,the preference for finding translations of the I Ching which are "user friendly" enabling the avoidance of any in-depth psychological change.
Django.

 

[martin]

I think that your arrow hits a bull's eye, Django.

The western (by now nearly worldwide) mentality uses a narrow focus and cannot stand contradictions or 'cognitive dissonance', as Festinger called it. That intolerance goes with a tendency toward impatience. Better act now than tomorrow, we have to choose now between the (apparently) exclusive alternatives and there is no time to allow them to coexist and see what happens.

The I ching - and other oracles - can help us to reach a deeper level of mind if we don't try to explain the dissonance away. That is nearly always possible, by introducing the notion of different levels or perspectives, for example. Like in "X and Y only seem to be contradictory because they represent different ways of looking at the same thing."
Or by introducing a time scheme as in "X and Y are not contradictory because Y comes after X"
And so on. Their are many ways to explain (or rather rationalize) dissonance away.
But none of these can satisfy our inner Zen master ...

 

[cal val]

Western or Eastern thinking...pffffffft...who cares. Thinking is over rated. Looking at all the lines is no less static an approach than picking just one to read. LiSe's way is least static of all ("...let my intuition speak") and it opens the way for Martin's different levels and perspectives and Django's in-depth psychological change.

*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[martin]

Hey! What do I hear? Pffffft??
Hmmm, well, come to think of it, I mean come to no-think of it, perhaps 'pffft' will satisfy the inner

.
Don't you no-think so?
Anyway, pfffft, who cares?
Grinning or not grinning, that is the question.

Pfffft *grin*

 

[cal val]

It has come to my attention that I should follow up my "pffffft" post above with an explanation of the sentiment behind it for those more serious of you.

I'm one of the less serious of you. It was an attempt to convey that fact. I actually know a smidgen (but just a smidgen) about the difference between Eastern and Western thinking. I actually do find it interesting. And I actually found everyone's comments on the subject interesting.

I don't really believe thinking is over rated. That was a "blonde" or..."Karl Rove" kind of thing to say (see note below) as a segue to my feelings about reading the Yi. I also understand there are as many "right" ways to read the Yi as there are people reading it.

Peace, love and a little understanding of my rather dry sense of humor,

Val

NOTE:

<BLOCKQUOTE>"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans...
...unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing."

KARL ROVE, Bush's long-time political guru and White House advisor</BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[cal val]

PS

<BLOCKQUOTE>...*grin*</BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[candid]

I liked all the above answers, and for me each perspective has its time and place.

There are times when a brief snap-shot is all I need to understand the time and keep the wheels rolling in a consistent direct. Other times its a multi-course and complex meal, which may take days (or more) to digest.

I read all the lines thrown and typically view them as options, or perhaps like a router - each sending to a different view or perspective. For example: one line could be my view outward from within, another could be someone else?s view of me, and yet another could be completely cool and impartial. One may touch the emotions while another strikes upon the reasonable.

Lise's intuitive approach surely is economical: working from the spirit of the reading more than the finite details.

Martin, I liked your comments and for the most part, agree. However, isn't resolving cognitive dissonance our primary reason for utilizing the oracle in the first place?

*grins at pffffts*

 

[martin]

Is resolving CD our primary reason for using the oracle?
Good heavens, can't you ask easier questions? I'll have to no-think, pfffft and grin simultaneously for this one!
Err, yes, no, depends, sometimes. CD can go with a lot of noise in our mind & heart. Then we may turn to an oracle in the hope that its answer will stop the noise. Or we may turn to a glass of beer. Or go for a walk. Or ...
Whatever it is that can help us to go deeper, get away from our surface consciousness. Because that is where the noise is. Deeper down there is only peace.

Pfffft

 

[cal val]

Martin...

"...that mystic phenomena are a consequence of a partial de-automatization of psychic structures, was suggested initially by the emphasis on focused attention and not thinking found in meditation instructions and by the phenomenon of "fresh vision," described in some accounts of mystic experiences. These accounts describe seeing a new brilliance in the world, seeing everything as if for the first time and noticing beauty and details which for the most part have previously been passed by without being seen."

Arthur Deikman


*grin*

Cheerio the noo,

Val

 

[martin]

Huh?
Do you know that Arthur is married to a blonde?
I don't ...

*Biggrin*

 

[cal val]

*twisting lock of blonde hair*

 

[martin]

Hehehe, please stop, my belly hurts, hehehe ..

 

[malka]

While I love LiSe's suggestion to allow our intuition to guide us, for me the problem is that if I could listen to my intuition that well I probably wouldn't need Yi! I'm overstating this a little. But it is true that when I'm very close to a situaiton, or/and emotionally invested in it, that it would be too easy for me to see what I want to be there. Or, if there is more than one message in the reading, then it's harder yet.

Tonight I threw 11 with lines 4 and 6 changing into 14. Both of the hexagrams themselves are positive and welcomed for my question. But line 6 is the kiss of death! It leads, of course, right into 12. It would be so easy for me to decide this line isn't very imporant, and then have it come back to bite me. Or, I could over-focus on it and miss out on the qualities of the hexagrams. This is one of those times I feel it really takes experience. The experience of having recieved the hexagrams previously and knowing what it is they ended up meaning. This is the kind of experience I lack and I know only time will resolve it. I hope.

Blessings,
Malka

 

[chrislofting]

Hi Malka,

you wrote:
>
> While I love LiSe's suggestion to allow our intuition to
> guide us, for me the problem is that if I could listen to my
> intuition that well I probably wouldn't need Yi!

thats the reason FOR the Yi - it reflects instincts that can be set-off by a context. Our consciousness allows us to learn the details of these instincts, refine them, and then forget them and let intuition take-over (remember star wars "trust the force Luke" - all of the training, the detail, is to be forgotten and the holistic processes take over)

> I'm
> overstating this a little. But it is true that when I'm very
> close to a situaiton, or/and emotionally invested in it,
> that it would be too easy for me to see what I want to be
> there. Or, if there is more than one message in the reading,
> then it's harder yet.
>

By immersion in the details of the I Ching so you develop habits and so refine instincts to a degree where your first distinction is the one to go with. The immersion leads to a developing trust in oneself ;-)


> Tonight I threw 11 with lines 4 and 6 changing into 14. Both
> of the hexagrams themselves are positive and welcomed for my
> question. But line 6 is the kiss of death! It leads, of
> course, right into 12.

what is wrong with 12? From a perspecive of change it has issues in that it focuses on not changing but in the form of holding onto one's beliefs. There is no 'kiss of death' here only the issue of seeking non-change over change but in some circumstances that is the 'best fit'.

THe pair of 11/12 focus on balance. 11 is balance as harmonising and an openness to future potentials. 12 is balance in the form of neutralising, to neutralise the attacks of others on one's faith and so validate that faith. No problem as such over the short term but the IC focus is on the long term - avoiding the 'inevitability' of change and so overdoing the neutralising.

Chris.

 

[heylise]

Miracle, miracle!! I can understand and I agree with Chris, with the entire post! Never thought I would ever see that day.

I always had the problem that my intuition had such a small little voice, I could barely hear it. Or maybe my thinking was too loud and I could not hear my intuition through the noise. Thanks to the Yi I learned to recognize what was intuition and what was thinking, wishes, fears, preconceptions, everything which makes it impossible to follow your real tao.

I regard the Yi as an image of universe. Representing everything imaginable, without any tag of good or bad. So 12 can be good at times, and 11 bad, but it depends entirely on your own actions. They all give images, or call it advice, because seeing (overseeing) a situation gives the solution of what you can do.

11.6 does not go to 12! Take a look where it goes, you will jump up but now very different! But even if it did go to 12, there is no need to be frightened. Like Chris said, 12 can be very positive.

If this was my own reading, I would first 'get the feel' of 11, which is picking up the blessings or other possibilities the gods place on your road. If you keep your eyes open, you will find them. If you trod on, you don't see anything. So open your eyes, your mind, shake off everything which holds you back.
Then the 'feel' of 14, the blessings you have received. They will only stay yours if you use them. Neglecting them means losing them. Gifts from heaven are for example your talents, or your dedication to make something out of your life and everything you do.

Together they give me the feeling that this is a time in which it will be possible to make the very best of whatever you have in mind. But ONLY if you DO it. It can just as well be a time in which you finally lose the opportunity, because you do not pick it up when it presents itself.

The lines can give a clue where to start, or where you should give extra attention and care. They are moving, which means they are less stabile than the rest of hex.11. So after getting this 'overview' you turn to the lines.

LiSe

 

[chrislofting]

Hi LiSe,

you wrote:
> Miracle, miracle!! I can understand and I agree with Chris,
> with the entire post! Never thought I would ever see that
> day.
>

;-)

> I always had the problem that my intuition had such a small
> little voice, I could barely hear it. Or maybe my thinking
> was too loud and I could not hear my intuition through the
> noise. Thanks to the Yi I learned to recognize what was
> intuition and what was thinking, wishes, fears,
> preconceptions, everything which makes it impossible to
> follow your real tao.
>

that right. This activity reflects the dynamics of our species in adaption to contexts (and escape from contexts to other contexts etc)

> I regard the Yi as an image of universe. Representing
> everything imaginable, without any tag of good or bad. So 12
> can be good at times, and 11 bad, but it depends entirely on
> your own actions. They all give images, or call it advice,
> because seeing (overseeing) a situation gives the solution
> of what you can do.
>

That is the point of IDM and the 'species I Ching' concepts. the I Ching reflects our adaptations to the Universe and as such reflects at a particular level the species' internalisation of the general characteristics of the Universe. We can trace the characteristics of meaning back to the basic dichotomy of fundamental particle categories - fermions and bosons. The GENERAL nature of these characteristics are universals and as such do not recognise 'good' or 'bad', it is the context that 'grounds' these universals. (see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/symmetry.html)

The properties of fermions and bosons, the interactions, are reflected all the way up to our brains, minds, and out into our collectives. The expressions of the mind reflect the nature of what it has adapted to, the Universe.

Move our focus to the level of Mind and the specialisation that is the I Ching, and we find the concept of 'contractive blending', an IDM concept, VERY generic, that is a focus on wholeness through integration, through drawing something 'in'. In the I Ching this concept is mapped to hexagram 02 where that hexagram is both absolute total darkness (negative) and reflects one element of the earth/heaven, dark/light, form of interpretation as well as the absolute total trust in others (positive) and reflects an element of female/male relationships.

In the above mappings, one interpretation is competitive, the other cooperative. This dynamic in interpretations is fundamental to our deriving of meaning and so encodes in each hexagram the duality of interpretations (gets more complex later as we delve into expressions of phases from five-phase theory but to start with the focus on competitive/cooperative is a beginning in understanding what is going on! ;-))

Hexagram 12 can thus be interpreted from a 'darkness' realm as the 'battle' of light vs dark and so of neutralisation that is considered 'stagnation' and overall negative but we can also interpret as a cooperative format where from devotion (bottom trigram) comes singlemindedness (top trigram) and as such reflects the singlemindedness in defending one's faith against attack and in doing so validating that faith.

Step back down to the more generic IDM level and we are dealing with 'blending, bonding, bounding, and binding' - fundamental distinctions that appear to be 'hard coded' into our species and all other neuron-dependent lifeforms - reflecting the adaptation to the Universe. (the BBBB concepts are derive in the IDM pages 3 and 4 (start with http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm003.html))

Blend - WHOLE (heaven/earth)
Bound - PART (fire/water)
Bond - Static RELATIONSHIP (lake/mountain)
Bind - Dynamic RELATIONSHIP (thunder/wind)

These are GENERAL patterns derived from our neurology. The I Ching re-labels these patterns and they develop from four to eight in the context of trigram formations.

Chris.