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Where did the use of the Line Pathways come from, and when did they start being used?

dfreed

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I am sure this question has been asked and answered before (at least once!), but my memory is a bit fuzzy these days, so:

Where do the Line Pathways, or the Hexagram Mirrors and Line Reflections (as LiSe calls them) - or the Transitional Hexagrams (which Hatcher mentions and which I believe are similar, p43) come from?

About how long have they been in use, and who (or whom) developed, invented, or came up with them - if that is even known, or knowable?

I sort of, kind of remember that these are fairly recent - and that perhaps they are associated with Stephen Karcher? But on LiSe's webpage about the Hexagram Mirrors she mentions that the 'idea was known in the Yuan (Mongol) dynasty'.

Kind regards, D
 

hilary

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As far as I know, LiSe and Karcher came up with the idea of tracing a path round four lines, using pairing and change, at around the same time. I haven't heard of anyone explicitly making that tour of four lines before them.

The roots of the component ideas - inverse pairing and changing lines - have obviously been around for a while, though. If you read LiSe's page, you'll see it's a diagram showing inverse pairs as single units that dates from the Yuan dynasty. But since that way of seeing explains the 'uneven' number of hexagrams in Upper and Lower Canon, it seems that recognition must be as old as the division into Canons.

Hexagram pairing is as old as the names of 41 and 42, or 63 and 64; line pairing is as old as the texts of 41.5 and 42.2, or 63.3 and 64.4. It doesn't follow from that, of course, that every line was always thought of as part of a pair, but it should at least be enough to make us pause and look.

As for the other operation in the pathway, change... well... . I think the thematic links between lines and their zhi gua are visible enough to show that they were part of the thinking of whoever wrote the book. Thematic links between lines and their fan yao tend to be less obvious - so less obviously intentional on the part of the authors. You probably know that Bradford coined the term fan yao because there wasn't already a Chinese word for that relationship.

(Transitional hexagrams are completely unrelated, and something I believe Brad and Mondo Secter came up with simultaneously and independently.)
 

dfreed

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As far as I know, LiSe & Karcher came up with the idea of tracing a path round four lines, using pairing and change, at around the same time .... The roots of the component ideas - inverse pairing and changing lines - have obviously been around for a while ....

Hexagram pairing is as old as the names of 41 and 42, or 63 and 64; line pairing is as old as the texts of 41.5 and 42.2, or 63.3 and 64.4.

Thanks Hilary, that's about what I thought as well. I like the idea that this more 'modern' way/tool of interpretation is based on older - even pre-Confucian - parts of the Yi, going back to the Zhouyi. It goes along with what Steven Karcher says about his 'Total I Ching':

This version of Yijing ... gives you the old myths, rituals, images that accompany (and perhaps are pre-cursors to? D.) the received tradition ....

Lately, I've been looking at the pairs created by the 'reverse hexagrams' - what Bradford Hatcher calls Jiao Gua (Vol II, page 18) - which are created when you switch the places of the trigrams. For example:

Hex. 10 has Heaven above Lake, and is called "Stepping" (Rutt) where it's jiao gua is Hex. 43 is Lake above Heaven, and is titled "Skipping" - and Stepping and Skipping make a kind of pair(ing).

Line 10.1 is: Stepping out in silken shoes. In travel: no misfortune. Whereas:
Line 43.1 is: Injured in the foot. Not able to walk. Misfortune.

And these two also have a sense of being 'paired', though perhaps in a: "here's what to do/consider, and here's what not to do/or consider" sort of way.

Best, D
 

hilary

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When you manage to put into words what the single relationship between all these swapped-trigram pairs is, do share!

As for 43 and 10 - how about 10.5?
 

hilary

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Well, you can describe the relationship between all the pairs of hexagrams with all 6 lines different (3 and 50, 5 and 35, etc) by saying they are 'opposite' or 'complementary' in meaning. You can describe all the inverse pairs by saying they're 'opposite sides of the same coin' or something along those lines. Now can you do the same for all the swapped-trigram pairs?
 

Sparhawk

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I am sure this question has been asked and answered before (at least once!), but my memory is a bit fuzzy these days, so:

Where do the Line Pathways, or the Hexagram Mirrors and Line Reflections (as LiSe calls them) - or the Transitional Hexagrams (which Hatcher mentions and which I believe are similar, p43) come from?

About how long have they been in use, and who (or whom) developed, invented, or came up with them - if that is even known, or knowable?

I sort of, kind of remember that these are fairly recent - and that perhaps they are associated with Stephen Karcher? But on LiSe's webpage about the Hexagram Mirrors she mentions that the 'idea was known in the Yuan (Mongol) dynasty'.

Kind regards, D

Curious, do you have access to Nielsen's "A Companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology"? There are number of these line exercises listed there which are quite old.

L
 

dfreed

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... do you have access to Nielsen's "A Companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology"?
I do not. Also, Hilary answered my question above. But thanks.
 
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hilary

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Curious, do you have access to Nielsen's "A Companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology"? There are number of these line exercises listed there which are quite old.

L
Line exercises? You mean with paired lines and such-like?
 

Sparhawk

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Line exercises? You mean with paired lines and such-like?

Perhaps "line exercises" was too broad and vague but well, yes. It is mostly about trigram pairings, contained trigrams, etc., things like that, but there are quite a few of those techniques and observations. I believe you have the book or a PDF to look for them in the pages. I was pointing to it because it is a good place to find old Han to Song interpretation tools.

Good you answered his question then.
 

dfreed

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... you (or we) can describe the relationship between all the pairs of hexagrams with all 6 lines different (3 and 50, 5 and 35, etc) by saying they are 'opposite' or 'complementary' in meaning .... Now can you do the same for all the swapped-trigram pairs?
Thanks. A question to confirm what you said above: is this how you see the "oppostite trigrams" - that they always show you something that's either opposite or complementary about the hexagram it's 'paired' with?

As to how I see - or make use of - the 'reverse hexagrams': This is new and exploratory. I'm approaching them for potential insights into my interpretation, in a similar way that Hatcher describes:

'Root and a Final (resultant) Hexagram (Ben Gua & Zhi Gua): ... important for the complete understanding of the Changing Line as a deeper Idea .... And also similar to how:

Fan Yao (Reverse Line, or Line-Coming-Back) pairs will often share vocabulary, cross-references, subjects, or grammatical tone, voice and mood ....

So, for now the best way I can describe how am I making use of the reverse hexagrams is, I'm seeing if they provide any useful or insightful ideas or meanings for my reading (sort of 'filling it out') - but without making the reading be something other than what it is.

And based on my limited exploring so far, I've found that many times (but not all the time) the reverse hexagrams and lines are useful and are worth exploring more. At some point, I'll try to present more about my explorations.

Best, D
 
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hilary

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I believe you have the book or a PDF to look for them in the pages.
Indeed I have, though the prospect of reading through 384 pages of entries on the off-chance is daunting, and if you happen to have done the work for me I will not be at all disappointed.

So, for now the best way I can describe how am I making use of the reverse hexagrams is, I'm seeing if they provide any useful or insightful ideas or meanings for my reading (sort of 'filling it out') - but without making the reading be something other than what it is.
That's how it's done. Open your journal to a point where you have full benefit of hindsight, and start asking yourself, 'If I'd looked at this hexagram then, what could I have learned?'
And based on my limited exploring so far, I've found that many times (but not all the time) the reverse hexagrams and lines are useful and are worth exploring more. At some point, I'll try to present more about my explorations.

Do you still mean trigram-swapping? And if so, are you looking at individual lines too - eg 10.2 with 43.5?
 

dfreed

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... you can describe the relationship between all the pairs of hexagrams with all 6 lines different (3 and 50, 5 and 35, etc) by saying they are 'opposite' or 'complementary' in meaning.

Thanks for your response. To clarify, are you saying that these 'Opposite' (Hatchers' pang tong gua) hexagrams always describe an either opposite or complementary relationship? And would this extend to the lines as well, e.g. 3.3 and 50.3, or 5.5 and 35.65?

That's how it's done. Open your journal to a point where you have full benefit of hindsight ....

You are correct, however, I am talking about something a bit different here. Not about looking at past readings, but looking at the "Reverse" hexagrams (Hatcher's jiao gua) - where the trigrams are swapped. And of course this could - but doesn't have to - be done in hindsight.

Do you still mean trigram-swapping? And if so, are you looking at individual lines too - e.g. 10.2 with 43.5?

Yes, the Reverse Hexagrams (i.e. swapped trigrams), and also their lines - so I might look at Hex. 5 and 6 (which in this case are also a classic 'pair') and also lines 5.3 and 6.3 ... or Hex. 10 and 43, and also lines 10.2 and 43.2.

Hatcher says of these Reverse Pairs (hexagrams) (Vol II, page 18), in part:

Jiao Gua or Reverse Pairs. A set of twenty eight Gua pairs which have the same component Trigrams, but in reverse positions. Jiao (0702) means exchanged or interchanged. While the Inverse and Opposite sets are arguably Zhouyi dimensions ... the Jiao Gua did not make an appearance as an explicit dimension until the Han Yiweishu (I believe Han-era Yi studies or 'scriptures'), following further development and elaboration of the Wings’ HalfImages. .... Once given a clearer conception of the meanings of lower and upper / inner and outer / subjective and objective ... places in the hexagrams(s), it became useful to examine the differing roles of the trigrams as they operate in the two distinct places and to examine how the lessons from one could be used in the other. Thus one might look at a Reverse Hexagram for insights into: 1) the objective applicability of (a) more intimate subjective experience (inner to outer) or 2) the internalization of an objective experience in composing an optimum attitude (outer to inner) ....

.... And I sort of used that as my jumping off point in my exploration ....

Best, D
 
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Sparhawk

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Indeed I have, though the prospect of reading through 384 pages of entries on the off-chance is daunting, and if you happen to have done the work for me I will not be at all disappointed.

Sorry, I'll owe you that one. I read Nielsen in detail and attention more than 12 years ago and some of those findings stuck with me as being there but I have no quotations to give you.
 

hilary

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Thanks for your response. To clarify, are you saying that these 'Opposite' (Hatchers' pang tong gua) hexagrams always describe an either opposite or complementary relationship?

Yes - though it's not either/or.

And would this extend to the lines as well, e.g. 3.3 and 50.3, or 5.5 and 35.65?

I don't know. You could have a look and see. (I wonder whether LiSe has done this? She has taken to mentioning complements on each hexagram page.)
You are correct, however, I am talking about something a bit different here. Not about looking at past readings, but looking at the "Reverse" hexagrams (Hatcher's jiao gua) - where the trigrams are swapped. And of course this could - but doesn't have to - be done in hindsight.
Using hindsight was a suggestion. It's very useful if you want to make a systematic survey of the usefulness - or lack thereof - of any tool.
Yes, the Reverse Hexagrams (i.e. swapped trigrams), and also their lines - so I might look at Hex. 5 and 6 (which in this case are also a classic 'pair') and also lines 5.3 and 6.3 ... or Hex. 10 and 43, and also lines 10.2 and 43.2.

Logically, wouldn't it make more sense to look at 10.2 with 43.5? The two 'dui.2' lines?

Hatcher describes these Reverse Hexagrams (Vol II, page 15):

In Shao Yong’s circular arrangement of the Gua these pairs oppose each other on the circle. Taking a cue from later Yin-Yang theory, (it is) ... helpful to see these pairs as complementary opposites, as insights and attitudes which are fulfilling to the larger goal of wholeness and the personal integration of paradox - they should not be seen as mutually exclusive.

And I sort of used that as my jumping off point in my exploration ....

Best, D
What you are quoting here is what Bradford says about opposite pairs, eg 10 vs 15 - pairs with all lines changed.

What he calls 'reversed hexagrams', with trigrams swapping places (eg 10 vs 43) are on the next page. He has a quite different suggestion for their meaning.
Sorry, I'll owe you that one. I read Nielsen in detail and attention more than 12 years ago and some of those findings stuck with me as being there but I have no quotations to give you.
Another one on the (infinite) reading list, then...
 

dfreed

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What you are quoting here is Bradford about opposite pairs, eg 10 vs 15 - pairs with all lines changed.
OMG! sorry sorry sorry! Early morning mind-fart. I corrected it above!

Logically, wouldn't it make more sense to look at 10.2 with 43.5? The two 'dui.2' lines?

It certainly might, and I did think of this. However, this 'method' is something I came up with; and while I would not be surprised if others have explored this before, here I needed to make some choices - and this is what I went with.

It is certainly worth exploring what you describe, however.

Using hindsight was a suggestion.
Ah, thanks.

Yes - though it's not either/or.

I think I'm having a 'who's on first' senior moment here. I was trying to say the same thing, but in hindsight, I could have - or should have - left out the 'either' part, and that leaves us with ....

Oppsite hexagrams decribes an opposite or a complementary relationship (between two hexagrams).

I still wonder, do they always do this - or do they only 'often' or only 'sometimes' describe these two types of relationships?

And it seems there is quite a 'range' of meanings when you say that these 'opposites' do (or might) describe an opposite or opposing relationship OR they do (or might) describe a complementary relationship. That covers quite a bit of ground.

Best, D
 
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