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Where is joy in 58?

Juliah

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Hello dear fellow seekers,

Have you ever dealt with the pure joy indicated in the hex 58? What is implied here - a feeling of happiness, an emotion of rapture, true enthusiasm or something else?

I remember, I got this hexagram twice. The first time it was unchanging, I asked about the reason of one's burst of anger. For the second time I received it when I felt desperate about the matter, it seemed hopeless. Both times there could be hardly found a place for joy, and I was very confused - I was told about the joy when I felt very sad and hurt.

Could you please enlighten me? :)
 

pocossin

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In my opinion the joy of 58 is the joy of retirement, that brief period between the peak of one's profession and preparation for death. My joy actually comes from growing vegetables. I have spent years collecting books and still have thousands, thinking that I would read them in retirement, but what I really enjoy is growing vegetables and suppose that I am giving some satisfaction to others who share in my harvest.
 

Juliah

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Thank you very much, Pocossin. I got your idea.

Unfortunately, the range of my 58-casts is too small to be understood correctly. Hope that the other members join.
 

Trojina

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I remember, I got this hexagram twice. The first time it was unchanging, I asked about the reason of one's burst of anger. For the second time I received it when I felt desperate about the matter, it seemed hopeless. Both times there could be hardly found a place for joy, and I was very confused - I was told about the joy when I felt very sad and hurt.
Very interesting. I'm hoping :flirt: you will add your experiences with 58uc to the 58uc thread when you feel more clear about the answer.

I know Lise calls 58 'Opening' here is a link http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html

that link goes to the index, won't go to hex 58, but you can access hex 58 through it

Trigrams lake over lake. Both reflecting and responding, open to one another. I wrote in the 58uc thread how literal 'opening' was for me. So if opening and exchange are the key ideas for 58 then joy is naturally part of this....as is, I suspect, anger sometimes ?

I think with the time you felt desperate 58uc may have been urging you to just go and talk ! Talking, opening, communicating, stirs up any stagnation.

The time someone was angry...can't tell if you mean it was you or someone else, then again 58uc may suggest to talk, share , open. If you were asking about the cause of anger then perhaps this was a by product of the sharing and open exchange between you ?

Will link to 58uc thread in case other ideas there http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?20005-Your-Experiences-with-Unchanging-Castings-Hexagram-58

I find the Image is useful as advise particularly with unchanging hexagrams.

From Wilhelm this reads

Lakes resting one on the other:
The image of the JOYOUS.
This the superior man joins with his friends
For discussion and practice.
Wilhelms commentary in the Judgement also always stays with me

When, on the other hand, the hearts of men are won by friendliness, they are led to take all hardships upon themselves willingly, and if need be will not shun death itself, so great is the power of joy over men.

Compare taking a long journey alone to taking a long journey with a close friend. Which journey do you think will seem much shorter and more enjoyable ? Us humans are so entranced with exchange it has the power to make us forget hardships. Your answers may have been saying that you needed to share,...even frivolous chatter can lighten a mood to a great degree. I always wondered if the power of open exchange, that urge to share with another, is indeed so great that, as Wilhelm says, it enables men to 'not shun death'. What do you think ?
 
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Juliah

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Trojina, your post has clarified a very important aspect of 58 UC to me. I would define it as involvement or having something in common with somebody or something - not in its static form, but as a process, exchange, like connecting vessels (two lakes). Developing this aspect, I would say, that the hexagram tells about mutual influence, an impact which is not ever pleasant.

For some reason I recall exorcists, expellers of demons who have to withstand against the powers they act upon.
 

moss elk

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Developing this aspect, I would say, that the hexagram tells about mutual influence, an impact which is not ever pleasant.
For some reason I recall exorcists, expellers of demons who have to withstand against the powers they act upon.

Could you explain this? I am very confused how you are connecting, "joining with friends for discussion and practice"
with Exorcism. Also, what do you mean by, "an impact which is never pleasant."? As in, joining with a specific person, or people in general?
 

Juliah

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Thank you, Moss Elk.

As to impact - I meant that any impact could not be pleasant only. Impact is born not only in a friendly discussion, a kick in the teeth is an impact, too. (Sometimes we get kicks out of the blue, as it seems to us.)

I experienced communicating with a very friendly acquaintance of mine, everything went fine and smoothly, till the day he said suddenly that he wished we had not met. Very often people influence each other not even knowing this. I mentioned exorcism as a brightest example of targeted influence.
 

Trojina

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Trojina, your post has clarified a very important aspect of 58 UC to me. I would define it as involvement or having something in common with somebody or something - not in its static form, but as a process, exchange, like connecting vessels (two lakes).
With you so far, although I think you are narrowing the possibilities of meaning down too much.

Developing this aspect, I would say, that the hexagram tells about mutual influence, an impact which is not ever pleasant.

Eh ? :confused: 'Mutual Influence' is more or less the name of hexagram 31...so I think you are getting muddled with that somewhat. I've no idea what you mean when you say it 'is not ever pleasant' ?

For some reason I recall exorcists, expellers of demons who have to withstand against the powers they act upon.

Again a tad lost. Thinking of an everyday picture of 58 in action. Tui, lake is youngest daughter. Think of two teenage girls who are friends. Two lakes reflecting and bouncing off one another. They talk and they talk and they laugh and they talk over each other because there is just so much to say they often talk at the same time and they are always on the phone or texting. It's the joy of open exchange more than one unduly influencing the other although influence must take place. There is also a level of excitement I think,when lost in exchange with a friend time goes very quickly.

Exorcism ? Well I don't know have you ever cast 58 when asking about exorcism ? I think doing 58 can exorcise stale old feelings which is why one often feels so much better after talking to someone.

Ooops crossed posts, I see you have explained somewhat above. I recommend you read Lise's site or someone else's actual translation as it sounds like you have gotten stuck on the title of the hexagram, in some works it's 'Joy'. If you go beyond the hexagram title things should be clearer.
 
S

sooo

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I think the idea of sorcerer can be linked with the idea of bewitching and enchanting, as a young and sociable young lady might be.

I look at 58 as examining the nature of joy, which can be selfish or selfless, virtuous or shameful, shallow or deep and enriching, self absorbed or generous. The idea of happy-go-lucky, always happy girl is tempered with the opposite: sullen and melancholy, moody, as a young girl can sometimes be: enchanted one moment, and angry and vengeful the next. Immaturity is part and partial of where this comes from, more a girl than a woman.

The lines help to distinguish what is being considered as joy at a given time, and that may offer alternatives or comparisons, from which one can, in their more mature mind, see and choose for themselves, or to describe a situation. Sometimes it asks, like a milk advertising slogan here in the US: Got milk? Got joy? Joy is often a choice, and which kind of joy is sometimes also a choice. One can find joy in a temper tantrum or in wallowing in their tears. One can also find joy in joining with friends and sharing a rich exchange. I think this latter is the ideal example to strive for, but is not always the initial condition one finds their self in when receiving this hexagram. Likewise, one can gather within themselves either joyous or melancholy thoughts to engage with, but the objective is to find true joy, true friends, true exchange. A literal joyous lake can be felt, the young woman of the lake has been often linked with musical inspiration. The famous Muscle Shoals recording studio has attracted world famous musicians to record their biggest hits of inspired soulful music, much of it spontaneously. It's been said from the earliest Indian tribes who once lived there, the lady sings from the waters of this bayou. Linda Ronstadt wrote and recorded her famous Blue Bayou there. I think her song is a good depiction of h58, joy and a bit of melancholy.

[video=youtube;SAmCd7EeTtk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAmCd7EeTtk[/video]

"Blue Bayou"

I feel so bad I got a worried mind
I'm so lonesome all the time
Since I left my baby behind
On Blue Bayou

Saving nickles, saving dimes
Working 'til the sun don't shine
Looking forward to happier times
On Blue Bayou

I'm going back someday
Come what may
To Blue Bayou
Where the folks are fine
And the world is mine
On Blue Bayou
Where those fishing boats
With their sails afloat
If I could only see
That familiar sunrise
Through sleepy eyes
How happy I'd be

Gonna see my baby again
Gonna be with some of my friends
Maybe I'll feel better again
On Blue Bayou

Saving nickles, saving dimes
Working 'til the sun don't shine
Looking forward to happier times
On Blue Bayou

I'm going back someday
Come what may
To Blue Bayou
Where the folks are fine
And the world is mine
On Blue Bayou
Where those fishing boats
With their sails afloat
If I could only see
That familiar sunrise
Through sleepy eyes
How happy I'd be

[Instrumental Interlude]

Oh, that boy of mine
By my side
The silver moon
And the evening tide
Oh, some sweet day
Gonna take away
This hurting inside
Well I'll never be blue
My dreams come true
On Blue Bayou

(I love how this "dances" with blue_angel's Khalil Gibran's poetry and hexagram 58. Her "baby" in the lyrics is the lake itself. The lake misses the lake.)

The early Indian story goes: The lady of the lake brought music to the tribe. The men could do their ceremonial dances, the women chanted and sang. When they led us away to our new home - camps in Oklahoma - our men no longer danced, women no longer sang; the waters had no music. She left and traveled on foot all the way back to Alabama. It took years to return again to the lady of the lake, and she was happy once more.
 
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B

blue_angel

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Hello Juliah,

I too have had a similar experience with 58 unchanging. I am not sure how much it will apply for you and your situation, but this thread reminds of the book The Prophet, when he speaks of "Joy and Sorrow". I'll quote incase it may be of some inspiration.

"Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises, was often filled with your tears. And how else can it be? The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain..." - by Kahlil Gibran

You can read the rest free here... http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/gibran/prophet/prophet.htm


Best wishes,

Blue_Angel
 
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diamanda

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The first time it was unchanging, I asked about the reason of one's burst of anger. For the second time I received it when I felt desperate about the matter, it seemed hopeless.
Hi Juliah,

You didn't mention what the 2nd question was.

I've never seen 58 mean joy. It always turns out to be an issue of exchange/negotiation/options.
So perhaps the person you mentioned had made a choice (or had to make a choice), hence the anger and collapse.

Some comments (from Tuck Chang's e-book) on the Lake trigram, which might be relevant (my emphasis):

"...to bend and break (as Dui is autumn; the tree withers in autumn and its branches can be easily bent and broken apart), to adhere and to separate (like fruits hang from the tree while growing, and fall down after they are mature in autumn). Referring to earth, it denotes the hard and alkaline land (as the salty lake, which this refers to, is in the west). It is the concubine (as in ancient China the youngest daughter usually accompanies the elder sister to marry her brother in law)."
 

Juliah

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Hi Diamanda,

The second question was about the event I was eagerly awaiting. I asked if it would happen in a definite period of time and got 58.5. The line is warning, but I cherished hopes. The event did not happen.
 

diamanda

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Ah yes, you did say that it was unchanging only the first time. Thanks for the 2nd question and outcome, and sorry to hear it didn't happen as you had hoped.
 

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