Which is more important? The changing line or the second hexagram?

[avatorotava]

Hallo group!
Here is my big big query!

I usually pose a question on the possible outcome of a choice of action
and it always puzzles me very much when the changing line seems to be in contradiction with the second hexagram (which I consider an outcome of the course of action of my choice)

What do you consider more relevant in cases like this?
The changing line or the second hexagram?

Here is an example I just got few minutes ago:

Question:
"What happens if I decide to proceed legally against a client that doesn't pay me? Is it right?"

And the answer was

25 - Innocence
with 9 on the fifth, therefore changing to
21 - Biting Through

Now the 9 on the fifth says more or less
"Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself"

which it makes me think I really should just stand by

But then
21 - Biting Through
it seems to say the opposite:
"Biting Through has success.
It is favorable to let the justice be administered"

Therefore take action and you will be rewarded!

Besides the fact that the answer is incredibly on the point, as usual, referring specifically to 'the justice' which I am legally seeking,
this is where I always get lost!
The seemingly contradiction between the changing line and the second hexagram
Now, even without getting into the specific reading (but please do, if you feel like you can help!!)
where do you usually place the most importance?

Thank you for your attention

Carlo

 

[radiofreewill]

Hi Carlo,

Great question! I'm of the opinion that both are equally important, even if they seem at odds with each other.

"What happens if I decide to proceed legally against a client that doesn't pay me? Is it right?"
25.5 to 21 ~ It is right, but is it best?

Line 5 says that you've been wronged, no doubt, through no fault of your own ~ and that you are entitled to material compensation...

...if you persevere and take it through the legal process.

However, because you were innocently wronged, you have the opportunity here to forego retribution ~ seek no remedy ~ for the sake of transformation.

By pocketing the debt, if you can afford to bite thru the loss, the way will be open for your unweaponized gravitas to *change* somebody for the better...

If you can do this with innocence, then there will be cosmic benefit to you, too, as a person of the Way.

I'd be interested in what others have to say, also?

Thanks and all best!

 

[Trojina]

I usually pose a question on the possible outcome of a choice of action
and it always puzzles me very much when the changing line seems to be in contradiction with the second hexagram (which I consider an outcome of the course of action of my choice)

Here lies the nub of your confusion. The second hexagram is not the outcome, more like the backdrop. I will link to Hilary's blog on it if I can find it...but the second or usually called the relating hexagram is not the outcome. It's more like the context, which can include aspects of past present future...it's the scenery

What do you consider more relevant in cases like this?
The changing line or the second hexagram?

well as the second hexagram isn't the outcome you no longer have this dilemma. With the one changing line I'd personally consider that line key to the reading.

Here is an example I just got few minutes ago:

Question:
"What happens if I decide to proceed legally against a client that doesn't pay me? Is it right?"

And the answer was

25 - Innocence
with 9 on the fifth, therefore changing to
21 - Biting Through

Now the 9 on the fifth says more or less
"Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself"

which it makes me think I really should just stand by

Yup...you don't need to use medicine or make legal proceedings by the look of it. Let things sort themselves out.

But then
21 - Biting Through
it seems to say the opposite:
"Biting Through has success.
It is favorable to let the justice be administered"

Therefore take action and you will be rewarded!

There is no 'but then'. 21 is the context in which you ask about the question, you ask about legal proceedings

Besides the fact that the answer is incredibly on the point, as usual, referring specifically to 'the justice' which I am legally seeking,
this is where I always get lost!
The seemingly contradiction between the changing line and the second hexagram
Now, even without getting into the specific reading (but please do, if you feel like you can help!!)
where do you usually place the most importance?

There is no rule about where to place importance, it's up to the individual...but I would give the line precedence here, less precedence if there were multiple moving lines. Your answer really isn't advising you to take legal action, the 21 shows the backdrop, the problem that you think needs tackling etc...well it doesn't

 

[Trojina]

Here is that link about the relating hexagram https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2013/06/01/the-old-resulting-hexagram-conundrum/


oh and here is an earlier one. https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2011/05/21/why-look-at-the-relating-hexagram/

Many books give the idea the second hexagram is the outcome but many have found in practise this really isn't how it works and your readings will make far more sense if you stop seeing the second hexagram as 'the end result' or some such. Sure there can be aspects of the future there, it's quite a fluid backdrop to the reading which you learn to use intuitively

 

[butterfly spider]

A very good friend from China who introduced me to the I Ching many years ago put it like this. You can be in various situations - like being on holiday. You can choose seaside ocean city - this is the background to your question. You can choose a location - this is your hexagram and then you can choose your place on the beach - this is your line. Where you are sitting right now - depends on the background setting. In all of this my friend said you had a choice. We may just need guidance on how to best cope with this choice. Sometimes castings have spoken to me such that my choice - my background situation needs amending - but in most cases I just need to deal with what is in front of me right now.

Seeing the resulting hexagram as the outcome often muddies the water. There is no point being in Benidorm and asking why it is so hot in August ....perhaps you should have gone to Norway -

 

[butterfly spider]

A very good friend from China who introduced me to the I Ching many years ago put it like this. You can be in various situations - like being on holiday. You can choose seaside ocean city - this is the background to your question. You can choose a location - this is your hexagram and then you can choose your place on the beach - this is your line. Where you are sitting right now - depends on the background setting. In all of this my friend said you had a choice. We may just need guidance on how to best cope with this choice. Sometimes castings have spoken to me such that my choice - my background situation needs amending - but in most cases I just need to deal with what is in front of me right now.

Seeing the resulting hexagram as the outcome often muddies the water. There is no point being in Benidorm and asking why it is so hot in August ....perhaps you should have gone to Norway -

 

[avatorotava]

Thank you Trojiana and everybody also,
I must admit this totally knocks over my 25 years of I Ching reading experience.
A bit shocking sincerely, I have to analyze and metabolize this in depth...

I have deducted my assumption from the Jung introduction to the Wilhelm translation,
which I interpreted this way (I think correctly, reading it again last night...)

Question (this is my idea) = always decide a course of action regarding the matter in question
first hexagram = the contemporary situation
changing lines = the pin points of the question or immediate change
second hexagram = the future outcome of the choice about to be put at work

I must says this method has been always working pretty smoothly, putting the question as "What will happen if I decide to do this?" allows me frame the answer very precisely and not to derail on any tangent

Now you are opening a very different scenario and I am very puzzled

But thanks again!
Any further insight on this matter are very welcome!
Any other reading suggested on the methodology?

Carlo

 

[Trojina]

If it has always worked well for you to see the relating hexagram as 'the outcome' then there's no reason you shouldn't continue doing so. But you will find now and then, as you have here, it can limit your understanding of an answer. I'd advise you experiment in your readings by looking at them with the relating hexagram not a set outcome, where it is much more fluid than that, and see how it works for you.

There is a little piece about this in Hilary's latest blog...will link

From here https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?24083-Blog-post-Gratitude she writes

Take for instance how we think about the changed hexagram of a reading: the one that results from changing any moving lines to their opposites. Most books will tell you that it represents the future, what happens after all the lines have happened  and as you probably know, that isn't necessarily true. It's more like a background, a where-you-stand-in-relation-to-this hexagram, which is very much present at the moment of casting. That's a pretty fundamental concept for understanding Yi; who owns it? Well& I think I must have learned this from Stephen Karcher  he's certainly the first person I encountered who actually wrote this down. But whenever the subject's come up at the I Ching Community, there have always been plenty of people who've come to the same conclusion on their own, simply by learning from their own readings.

 

[avatorotava]

Thank you Trojina, you gave me so much food for thoughts that it took me so long to get back to you with this:
I meditated a lot about what you have said and I must admit it does makes lot of sense, I still have to metabolize it, it is not easy after 25 years or reading the second hexagram as the outcome to get rid of this idea...
But at this point another question rises in this changed contest, I don't know if I should open another thread about but I' ll try to explain myself here since you have been so helpful
Because I always thought that the second hexagram represented the outcome of a question I have always pose day question in a way that would give me the least space to misunderstand the answer, therefore I have always presented a decision/choice I would like to make and asked for an image that would describe me the situation and the related outcome.
Now since we don't work anymore in an 'outcome' related space, the panorama has totally changed and I was wondering if you think there is a correct way to pose a question...
thanks
Carlo

 

[avatorotava]

Thank you Trojina, you gave me so much food for thoughts that it took me so long to get back to you with this:
I meditated a lot about what you have said and I must admit it does makes lot of sense, I still have to metabolize it, it is not easy after 25 years or reading the second hexagram as the outcome to get rid of this idea...
But at this point another question rises in this changed contest, I don't know if I should open another thread about it, but I' ll try to explain myself here since you have been so helpful
Because I always thought that the second hexagram represented the outcome of a question I have always posed the question in a way that would give me the least space to misunderstand the answer, therefore I have always presented a decision/choice I would like to make and asked for an image that would describe me the situation and the related outcome.
Now since we don't work anymore in an 'outcome' related space anymore, the panorama has totally changed and I was wondering if you think there is in general a correct way to pose a question...
thanks
Carlo

 

[ChunTsu]

Forest of Changes

Hi

# out The Forest of Changes a work still in progress This gives 64 x 64 = 4096 lines , and that would be the answer , with specificity . You can have a free go at Amazon , for the first few hexagrams .