"Who is there left to fight?"

[Tohpol]

Finally got around to starting a new thread for this one Bruce...Mmmwaauuuhahahahah….

Here's what you wrote:

"Ok, in the spirit of being a good sport.

My view is that:

Good and evil beget one another, or in the alleged words of some old dude, say good and evil is born.

Agreed.

When one power reaches mid-day, another, equalizing power begins its ascent.

Agreed

Depending on where you stand, one will be called evil and the other good.

Agreed

Satanism is seen from a relative position, and is an equalizer to the deities, we place high in the heavens.

Agreed

There is no place to climb but upon our own mountains. If we make gods, we make devils too.

Agreed

Who is there left to fight?

Ah-HA!

Perhaps “fight” is the wrong word. Maybe it’s not a fight as such, but a defence. Then there are modes of defence for the "light" or seed of the soul that we are attempting to "grow." (46?) There are tools and ways to protect that light against too much darkness. We don't have to act against anyone, just to defend our outposts, because we have made a choice to do so.

At the same time, in a philosophical sense, it is easy to say there is nothing to fight for, it's all illusion. On the ground however, when there are choices to be made defending one's light and that of others philosophical ideals can easily become null and void when we are trying to protect the ones we love, for example.

However, defending truth is part of that. How can we have light in ourselves if we pay no attention to what is truth and what is fiction? That requires a "fight" or struggle of sorts does it not? But it doesn't mean aggression.

Whadya think?

Topal

 

[bruce_g]

Let's remember the context from which this came: good and evil.

Of course on a relative level there is good and evil. As I’ve already said, “Depending on where you stand, one will be called evil and the other good.” Where you stand is a relative position, and from this position you can defend from intrusion or invasion. From this subjective position, I am legally armed and trained to use deadly force, should my life or limb be threatened by an imposing force. I’m not a pacifist, from my subjective position, and I like having all my options open, should dire circumstances be presented to me. But, I don’t fool myself into believing that my territory – that relative place where I stand – represents the universal good, or that my opposition – be it a rabid wild animal or a violent thief – represents universal evil.

The statements you were making on the original thread were as proclamations of some sort of universal truth, explaining in detail what is good and what is evil - not as though from your own relative position, but magnifying your position to represent Good and Evil, God (The Creative which lives up there) and Satan (The Evil which lives down here).

Nature has laws, it’s true. Animals protect their territory, and so do humans (we are animals after all). A coyote will protect her cubs from the mountain lion, and to the coyote the lion is dangerous, but not evil. To the lion, the coyote cubs are only a meal. The truth of the matter is, neither is good or evil. Though they have the right to defend themselves (relative position), that in no way constitutes a universal right or wrong, good or evil.

When you (or anyone) proclaim your view as the universal good, an opponent is bound to arise; one who sees you as evil and themselves as good. Hence there is a fight, each defending their universal rightness. When you see no universal good vs. evil, who is left to fight or defend against, other than from a strictly relative position? When you understand that a relative position is all you’re fighting for, universal good and evil doesn’t exist.

 

[cejudesc]

Devil's (Satan?) advocate:

When you see no universal good vs. evil, who is left to fight or defend against....

What about those who claim there is universal good vs. evil?

universal good and evil doesn’t exist.

Is this an universal truth, or just a relative position you're fighting for?

BTW, like your post a lot.

 

[bruce_g]

Is this an universal truth, or just a relative position you're fighting for?

touché

 

[cejudesc]

Long time a go, a former friend (he doesn't like me anymore, because I don't follow the Yijing's "traditional" school) said me:

"todas las generalizaciones son preligrosas, incluso ésta"
(every universal statement is dangerous, including this one)

A treasure, isn't?

 

[bruce_g]

Beautiful. :bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

"todas las generalizaciones son preligrosas, incluso ésta"

Words to live by...

Kind of a paradoxical statement for somebody that doesn't like other students to stray away from so called "traditional" paths...

L

 

[cejudesc]

jajajaja... yeah...

seriously... neither he nor i are nowadays the kind of people we use to be when we were friends. That's why I would chose that Galeano's quote as my (nowadays) signature.

You may know him from e-ching (his nick has to do with an "enigma" song )

 

[Sparhawk]

You may know him from e-ching (his nick has to do with an "enigma" song )

I don't know... Perhaps not the nick but his signature? In any case, all the ones that start or end their posts, or insert in between the words "Santos Sabios" and "Que el Cielo te Bendiga" give me a severe allergy reaction...

L

 

[cejudesc]

oh.. now I'm getting worried.... I hope my use of "Ancients" produce you only a superficial allergy

 

[Sparhawk]

OH, MY EYES!!

L

 

[Tohpol]

Let's remember the context from which this came: good and evil.

Of course, on a relative level there is good and evil. As I’ve already said, “Depending on where you stand, one will be called evil and the other good.” Where you stand is a relative position, and from this position you can defend from intrusion or invasion. From this subjective position, I am legally armed and trained to use deadly force, should my life or limb be threatened by an imposing force. I’m not a pacifist, from my subjective position, and I like having all my options open, should dire circumstances be presented to me. But, I don’t fool myself into believing that my territory – that relative place where I stand – represents the universal good, or that my opposition – be it a rabid wild animal or a violent thief – represents universal evil.

Sure. In terms of there being right or wrong, good and evil these are human constructs and in an abstract sense – at different densities or dimensions you could say - such polarities don't exist, we merely make choices. My point is, we have to make the effort to understand /see those choices before us if we are to avoid deluding ourselves. We can't just sit cross-legged and chant and pretend all is One. Well, clearly it is not at this frequency of existence – and that’s for a reason. Feeling warm and fuzzy won't get you there. And feeling angst and stress won't either. I’m not suggesting that my stance or any event, or person in a given moment of time can represent a Universal good or evil either. (I’m also not suggesting it can’t as Cejudesc mentioned) Perhaps we could say one’s place or position is dictated by choices which present themselves every second that we breathe. Who you are and what you see determines whether you are imprisoned by that “territory” of belief or it is incrementally outgrown.

This growth is in a state of flux. The pendulum of our perceptions swings back and forth in that "flux." Ultimately the direction and final destination will be effected by minute changes in trajectory. We must know our system and the system outside it very, well indeed in order for that trajectory remain constant. i.e. towards truth, however relative. I think an objective truth can be known, step by step, incrementally. Yes, we must use the medium of the subjective to get there but I do think it’s possible albeit fraught with difficulty at this level. It’s important to try and to DO to that end. For example, when you know someone is lying to the public and when you know that those lies will mean tens and thousands of deaths – then of course, a defence of light presses in on your ability to act in whatever way you can. Does it only become necessary to act when the results of those lies are at your door? I think not. It is then that relativity becomes actuality. Which is the daily reality for many.

The statements you were making on the original thread were as proclamations of some sort of universal truth, explaining in detail what is good and what is evil - not as though from your own relative position, but magnifying your position to represent Good and Evil, God (The Creative which lives up there) and Satan (The Evil which lives down here).

Yes, I can see what you mean. That is not what I was trying to convey, however. Something that is not evil doesn’t necessarily mean it is “good” or “nice.” Something that is a manifestation of Pure Love – if that is even possible at this level of existence – doesn’t necessarily mean it is evil. There are complexities inbetween. However, there are Universal principles symbolized by archetypes for example, that allow us to slowly choose which stream of Creation to embody as a process.

Nature has laws, it’s true. Animals protect their territory, and so do humans (we are animals after all). A coyote will protect her cubs from the mountain lion, and to the coyote the lion is dangerous, but not evil. To the lion, the coyote cubs are only a meal. The truth of the matter is, neither is good or evil. Though they have the right to defend themselves (relative position), that in no way constitutes a universal right or wrong, good or evil.

Of course! But the animal Kingdom is something else entirely. Yes, we certainly are animals but we have the potential to be self-aware where animals, generally do not.
Comparing consciousness in this way doesn’t work just as it doesn’t work to get a dog to do Calculus. With self-awareness however localized, this becomes a completely different ball game.

The coyote is not thinking “Hmmph! How evil that Lion is!” It doesn’t have the capacity to do. Of course, no dynamic in the animal kingdom is either good or evil. It just IS. But humans are both inside and outside nature by dint of their own brain and mind development i.e. consciousness. Therefore, to suggest that human beings are operating from the same template is wholly erroneous. (If that is indeed what you were suggesting). Human beings have the capacity to purposefully CHOOSE evil or the path to something different. Animals are what they are. Instinct and basic emotion. They are intimately bound into Nature as Predator and prey. Similarly, the symbolism can be applied to humans though at a different level of awareness. The same dynamics apply with the added ingredient of choice which, is largely obscured by the same needs: hunger, fear, sex etc. We are very much the same. Perhaps worse. Nevertheless, there is still a wider degree of choice, which is dependent I would say on Knowledge as oppose to ignorance. This is the key.

When you (or anyone) proclaim your view as the universal good, an opponent is bound to arise; one who sees you as evil and themselves as good. Hence there is a fight, each defending their universal rightness. When you see no universal good vs. evil, who is left to fight or defend against, other than from a strictly relative position? When you understand that a relative position is all you’re fighting for, universal good and evil doesn’t exist.

To believe I am proclaiming anything in the way that you suggest would be akin to a fundamentalist doctrine which I hope you see is not part of who I am. If I have given that impression then I’ll certainly work on that! (call it the effects of religious past lives..

However, you seem to be presenting a very naïve view if you think that life is merely predicated on opposites that are misunderstanding each other. “Sorry guys, I thought you were evil when you are good and you thought I was evil when I was good! Let’s just hold hands and watch the sunset!” Inbetween that simplification are complexities of the human psyche taken full advantage of by the Machiavellian nature of negativity – consciously for some. Divide and Rule is certainly the modus Operandi by many movers and shakers but let’s not pretend that the nature of man is not playing a huge part. I think that most humans are neither inherently good or bad. But I do think there are those humans that manifest extreme negativity by choice. That is their nature.

Yes, maybe there is not a Universal good or evil – just choices. Those choices can lead, naturally to polar opposites and do so all the time. I suggest this is not based on “rightness” or a momentary lapse of reason but on a choice, either through ignorance or purposeful, conscious intent. It does not follow that the answer to the world’s woes is that we are just projecting and misunderstanding our “enemies”( although that will certainly be a big factor). Just as there are differences between the crocodile and the deer so to there are differences between some humans. This stems from an intrinsic knowledge that the “misunderstanding” can used as more ways to gain food for the “predator”. I know that sounds harsh and unpleasant to contemplate most folks don’t want to look at it. (I would recommend you research psychopathology in detail on this point)

What good is abstraction of relativity when it has no relationship to this 3-D reality?
Would the idea that it is all relative prevented Hitler from persecuting the Jews and other minorities? Would the idea that it is all relative made a difference to 1960s Black America? What about Iraq? Vietnam? Pol-pot? There is no good and evil because it is all relative. That could be used as a cop-out until that is, the results of this relativism reach all of front doors. What then?

I think these things ARE relative – but the practical application is not designed to be manifested at this level of existence. I don’t think we are here to create a union of opposites as it can’t be done. “All is One” we sagely told. At “higher” levels maybe, but this is the world of matter where opposites and polarities dominate. I do think we are here to understand the interplay between them in order to evolve to levels where the merging of opposites can be experienced. But not at this reality. Call it a school and we ‘ain’t the architects of this school.

Topal

 

[bruce_g]

Who is there left to fight?

Not me, I'm goin' fishing.

 

[bruce_g]

Back. What a trip. Ten hours in the 100 degree sun, and not a single bite. The kind of day when fisherman say "Oh, I just go fishing to enjoy the great outdoors."

Anyway, Topal, I've read your post a few times, and it's hard for me to get a grasp on where you stand. You seem to go back and forth, agreeing, disagreeing, suggesting, projecting. One thing that comes across, though, you seem to be fighting with yourself.

Regarding my view of good and evil, you said “But you know I'd like to hear more of your view on that.” And so I shared my view with you. I don’t intend to argue it, and your comments strike me as argumentative rather than conversational. If you had a specific point of view to share, I’m afraid it was either lost in contradictions, or maybe I’m just too worn out to understand it this evening.

There is universal and individual. One doesn’t need to exclude the other. One can hold a view of the universe, and also a view of their life, like lines 5 and 6 of hex 20. Most people do, to varying degrees.

 

[Tohpol]

Back. What a trip. Ten hours in the 100 degree sun, and not a single bite. The kind of day when fisherman say "Oh, I just go fishing to enjoy the great outdoors."

Anyway, Topal, I've read your post a few times, and it's hard for me to get a grasp on where you stand. You seem to go back and forth, agreeing, disagreeing, suggesting, projecting. One thing that comes across, though, you seem to be fighting with yourself.

Regarding my view of good and evil, you said “But you know I'd like to hear more of your view on that.” And so I shared my view with you. I don’t intend to argue it, and your comments strike me as argumentative rather than conversational. If you had a specific point of view to share, I’m afraid it was either lost in contradictions, or maybe I’m just too worn out to understand it this evening.

There is universal and individual. One doesn’t need to exclude the other. One can hold a view of the universe, and also a view of their life, like lines 5 and 6 of hex 20. Most people do, to varying degrees.

Ah, I wish I could go fishing right now. 100 degrees....That's pretty oven-like.

Well, conversational? Agumentative? Hmmm. The latter is certainly possible Bruce. Life could have made me a bit combative in this regard. But if that's the impression I'm giving I'll work on that! I really would like to find out about things - how people arrive at such conclusions and whether they have validity.

There is also the possibility that part of the issue is your allotted belief taking precedence and you'd rather not see the points I'm making, in which case you'll see it as arguing whereas I see it as exploring gaps or flaws in reasoning.

I've obviously not made myself clear at all if you think that I am excluding one element over another with the above statement. If there are things you don't understand due to my bad explanations (or something in you) then highlight them for me. That way everyone learns. Agreeing with some points and not others is the nature of complexity - it seems logical with such a discussion that that will happen. On Fighting with myself? Oh, certainly, in one sense, yes. But then aren't we all in many ways?

If you're uncomfortable with it as it stands (or too worn out) that's ok. Moving on. But I'll certainly take aboard what you say regarding my style, though I can't agree with some of your conclusions so far, even while I agree with the vast majority of your views. Anyway, what a boring world it would be if we all agreed eh? I guess that is also the point.

Bruce, I greatly respect your I Ching expertise and VERY much appreciate the help and advice you have given me in the past - that remains a constant even if our philosophical views ultimately diverge.

Topal

 

[Sparhawk]

You may know him from e-ching (his nick has to do with an "enigma" song )

I just realized who are you talking about, exactly so...

Interesting, are you in Mexico too?

L

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Topal,

I'm a huge believer in change. If this was a different time, and not even a very different time, I'd be saying the same sort of things as you did. Likewise, you perhaps would say what I've said, at another point in time. That makes us sort of the same, to me. That's the kind of Oneness that is real, not conjured in fuzzy feelings while sitting cross-legged, contemplating the eyes of a spider, or some such thing . Though some of that can be a good thing.

 

[Tohpol]

Hi Topal,

I'm a huge believer in change. If this was a different time, and not even a very different time, I'd be saying the same sort of things as you did. Likewise, you perhaps would say what I've said, at another point in time. That makes us sort of the same, to me. That's the kind of Oneness that is real, not conjured in fuzzy feelings while sitting cross-legged, contemplating the eyes of a spider, or some such thing . Though some of that can be a good thing.

I can go with that!

Topal