Why am I continuous;y socially hesitant? - 46.5 to 48

[em ching]

Hi,

I'm tired of my nature, which continuously bends/ is shaped by social pressure. I understand that I just need to allow a stronger sense of self and accept myself as different but no less worthy etc, but I keep encountering setbacks in self assurance! (as I'm sure you have read before - I hope I'm not starting to sound like a broken record!!)

I asked the question to the I-Ching and got 46. 5 Pushing Upward to 48 The Well ( which I interpret as perhaps representing me allowing myself to be influenced/ absorb the vibes of others etc...)

What would you say about this reading?

Thanks

 

[Tohpol]

What would you say about this reading?

Step by step. It'll come. You are progressing despite what you think. You're pushing upward so keep going, but let it unfold naturally. Have faith. You'll be just fine.

Topal

 

[em ching]

Thanks Topal - yeah that makes sense I guess confidence and stability is not an overnight transformation.. read the Wilhelm interpretation of The Well which has really resonated with me :

"If a man wanders around in swampy lowlands, his life is submerged in mud. Such a man loses all significance for mankind. He who throws himself away is no longer sought out by others. In the end no one troubles about him any more."

(Because he doesn't treat himself with respect I guess!?)

"At the well hole one shoots fishes.
The jug is broken and leaks.
The water itself is clear, but it is not being used. Thus the well is a place where only fish will stay, and whoever comes to it, comes only to catch fish. But the jug is broken, so that the fish cannot be kept in it. This describes the situation of a person who possesses good qualities but neglects them. No one bothers about him. As a result he deteriorates in mind. He associates with inferior men and can no longer accomplish anything worth while."

(This is how I feel - I deteriorate and my sense of self worth seems to start to disintegrate when I feel like people dislike me and then I just exist and don't improve myself or do things - I just dwell..)

"Nine in the third place means:
The well is cleaned, but no one drinks from it.
This is my heart's sorrow,
For one might draw from it.
If the king were clear-minded,
Good fortune might be enjoyed in common.
An able man is available. He is like a purified well whose water is drinkable. But no use is made of him. This is the sorrow of those who know him. One wishes that the prince might learn about it; this would be good fortune for all concerned"

* I really don't mean to sound self-pitying all the time but this is how I feel - sad that I don't have the confidence most of the time, to be myself and show people that there is more to me etc.. I feel trapped so much of the time and conditioned by my perceived sense of how others perceive me ( as inferior) it's horribly pathetic - I know what I need to do is implicate this advice:

"The well is being lined. No blame.
True, if a well is being lined with sone, it cannot be used while the work is going on. But the work is not in vain; the result is that the water stays clear. In life also there are times when a man must put himself in order. During such a time he can do nothing for others, but his work is nonetheless valuable, because by enhancing his powers and abilities through inner development, he can accomplish all the more later on"

But when I am depressed and down on myself I find it hard to do useful practical things towards self-improvement - I need to look outside myself at this time I know! But I get such a sinking feeling inside that I can't even concentrate on reading!! Its such a waste of time - and self damaging - it just seems to cloud my existence..

anyway I guess I'm writing this here a) to vent my sadness and frustration that I keep bringing myself down and b) the consistent relevance and wisdom in my answers from the I ching :bows: if only it were easier to heed the advice in my everyday life.. thanks for reading and if anyone has had similar experiences or anything to add to the interpretation it would be most welcome.

 

[Trojina]

I don't want to analyse you or anything but apart from consulting the Yi it seems to me it may be worth your while thinking over where your self criticsm comes from. I mean of course to some extent its useful but if you always feel you are somehow in the wrong, that you don't meet others expectations etc etc well that can contribute to a depressive mind state.

As kids I don't think we start out thinking we're socially inept/useless etc etc someone gives us those ideas and as we're kids we believe them. No way am i encouraging you to blame those who bought you up (these kinds of messages come from even well intentioned parents) all I'm saying is somewhere/somehow, school/home wherever , you've kind of learned to think negative things about yourself alot of the time and its not easy unlearning all that on your own.

I'm aware I'm a bit out of line here as this isn't Yi related but I'm concerned you are getting into classic depression symptoms and maybe not recognising it and thinking you have to change yourself all by yourself. Ever thought of some counselling or something like cognitive therapy is good i heard as it helps you change negative thought patterns.

Sorry if I'm making too many assumptions about your mental state here, maybe some of my own projections, just trying to help as I've noticed you've been struggling with these feelings over a few threads now and I'm thinking maybe the going is getting tough for you soldiering on alone. I'm thinking actually talking to someone else might be helpful cos I notice even in your interpretations of your answers there seems to be a note of self blame ..for example you threw 46.5 which as Topal said is about taking things step by step and yet you focus on the man in 48 in the 'swampy lowlands ' in line 1 and 2 in 48 Why ? Thats not really part of your answer . 48.5 is the fan yao. I'm not saying you can't take whatever aspects of 48 you wish I'm just saying you got a reasonably 'positive' answer and instead of looking at that got right into those lowlands - as if you were looking for something bad to say about yourself. And thats not a criticism BTW just an observation , but i think that kind of thing is hard to tackle by yourself as you can't get a clear picture through your own self perceptions.

Hmm anyway it does seem tough all this self doubt/recrimination you're going through, hang on in there and make your way through it step by step (46.5)



Sorry for lecture.



As an afterthought I'm aware it may well be the other way around as in depression itself leads to negative self evaluation - who knows there may be many factors involved what you are going through. My perspective here is coming from when I've been in fairly poor slightly obsessive/depressed mental states especially when young, the Yi hasn't been the best thing for me cos in retrospect I kind of used it to bury myself deeper into the whole mental tangle (unwittingly). Funny cos Topal said the other day how the Yi had helped him through depression and I agreed but i also think theres some kinds of depressions where Yi and introspection don't help half as much as another human being might - mainly cos of the whole perspective problem. Hmm maybe Yi and other ways of helping yourself like counselling etc

 

[Trojina]

Another afterthought - the fan yao 48.5 shows a well with good clear water to drink - its all there for the taking. 46.5 if it is a kind of mirror image of that may mean you have to take some steps to get to the water, you work your way there gradually.

 

[Tohpol]

Wise words there.

It does depend on so many factors why people become mildly or clinically depressed. But as Trojan says kids don't start out like that. And it does require quite a bit of reprogramming to understand where all the many layers of negativity come from. They can and do build up very quickly, especially if you've had trauma of one kind or another in your life. Those chemicals in the brain can really start to flow in the wrong way.

The Yi certainly wasn't appropriate form of help when I was in my twenties and having real problems with depression. It was only relatively recently that it was helpful due to a stronger emotional/intellectual base. I could reason much more and offset the emotional chaos whereas before my emotions were far too screwed.

Depends on your type of personality too - you might even say astrological factors. Water signs and those with governing moons are particularly prone to the vagaries of our emotional life imo. If you are one of those very sensitive to the oceans of impressions that we are constantly bombarded by from people, events and all manner of things - and it sounds as if you are - then some form of therapy - nothing fancy - might give that extra ability to protect yourself psychically and get the balance before the melancholy is allowed to develop anymore. Very often these negative thoughts are literally not your own. Thus if you don't own them - then with time you can say bye-bye to them.

So, I guess I've just reiterated what Trojan said - anyway I think so many folks can be at least mildly depressed and not realise it.

Topal

 

[em ching]

Quote Topal

"If you are one of those very sensitive to the oceans of impressions that we are constantly bombarded by from people, events and all manner of things - and it sounds as if you are - then some form of therapy - nothing fancy - might give that extra ability to protect yourself psychically and get the balance before the melancholy is allowed to develop anymore. Very often these negative thoughts are literally not your own. Thus if you don't own them - then with time you can say bye-bye to them. "

I have quoted that because yes I am so molded and discouraged by any hint of a negative vibe from people - maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy, I expect the worst and then usually get the worst from certain people.. which has been pogniantly emphasised to me today - I am in a new job and today found myself surrounded by a loud, confident funny group, and as I have been low anyway I found it near impossible to be myself - they were funny and I wanted to play along etc but everything I uttered either came out wrong or was awkward or just too quiet - because of a lack of any confidence behind myself (maybe I should have kept quiet but that probably would have made my paranoia worse) and I felt that certain other people that I initially made friends with are now realising my true meek, akward, 'trying too hard'/ trying to be 'something I'm not' and starting to avoid me for my lack of integrity and strength of character maybe (it may not be quite that bad but that is my interpretation of the development of my relationships at this work place) - It brought me right back to my least confident self-hating school days to be honest - can't believe I'm regressing back to that after two relatively confident and happy-ish years! - which is very worrying as I am practically an adult now and need to figure a 'career path' and start functioning in the real world! It's so disheartening my low self esteem has come full circle - probs has a lot to do with the fact that I''m practically living on my own at the mo and feel unable to be that socially mobile because of lack of confidence (and money - in part)

Anyway not to go on too much but yeah I think Cognitive Behavioural therapy might be an idea - I went to a couseller a couple of times but felt my upset was just being churned up, which was a release and she was comforting at the time, but in the real world those feelings are given a full reign of control depending on the way you think - and my thought patterns seem ingrained - kinda scared me a bit when you mentioned the flow of brain chemicals ( mine definately in the wrong way and getting worse again at the precise time I need them to get better!) and so I think I need to do more than just talk about the negative worries dominating my thoughts, ie train them but they seem to have so much power over me..

BTW I am a Libra with an Aries moon and rising - which I have interpreted as symbolising my basic conflict - I want to be confident, proud, impulsive and expressive but I am held back by the scales wanting to have everything balanced and shying away from conflict ( I find it so hard to express anger or stand up for myself with people my age). Im just so sick of succumbing to the timid me which still resurges (bringing me right back to an 11year old me)

My greatest wish at the mo is to be able to retain my individuality and sense of self and be able to express myself and contribute rather than being influenced bu others and fading into insignificance (but I don't seem to know where, who or what that is! everyting I think and feel I question and doubt ( leaving me steretopycially indecisive like a libra, and leading me often going against my instincts putting me in often uncomfortable situations which could have been avoided had I trusted my initial judgement). I need a stronger sense of who I am, but where is that feeling and I'm starting to feel like I missed my opportunity to capture and retain one.

Re my childhood I am an only child (which could have something to do with things) and also my parents, though great and good people who I'd call my friends, are arty types, kind of with their head in the clouds and both could be seen as loners (of sorts, not in a bad way exactly) and they are both still single, and i know they both had confidence issues growing up. So perhaps I have learnt this low self esteem from them, which is sad.. but at the same time as I can recognise this I shouldn''t let t get the better of me...

I know this is a long piece and I'm not sure how eloquent I have been but thanks for allowing me a certain release by writing it down a bit.. even if it was too personal and long to have patience reading!

Thanks very much for your words of support :bows:
I definately will pursue cog beh therapy because sometimes I catch myself saying to myself the most horrible and discouraging things that I make my own heart sink.. my thinking needs radical change... I so wish to be free of myself!

 

[Trojina]

- It brought me right back to my least confident self-hating school days to be honest - can't believe I'm regressing back to that after two relatively confident and happy-ish years! - which is very worrying as I am practically an adult now and need to figure a 'career path' and start functioning in the real world! It's so disheartening my low self esteem has come full circle - probs has a lot to do with the fact that I''m practically living on my own at the mo and feel unable to be that socially mobile because of lack of confidence (and money - in part)

!

I dunno i sometimes think figuring a 'career path' is the bane of every young persons life - well I'm not young and still haven't figured it and nor have many others. Besides these days there aren't that many straight forward career paths to follow. Perhaps you need to remember you are more important than any career path. Cognitive behaviour therapy was just an idea, I've heard its quite effective but I never had it so don't know what its like - but just seems you could do with some kind of help with all this. Anyway I hope one way or another things soon pick up for you go easy on yourself

 

[Tohpol]

I haven't had cognitive therapy either but my sister who is a health practitioner absolutely swears by it having seen very good results in her many clients whom she has referred.

Seems like you have a good handle on why this is taking place which is good. I very much relate to all those things you mention above em. I experienced all those things you refer to and more when I was young. It does get easier.

But you can't cure these things over night - step by step as the last hex mentioned. Don't force things. And let go of the frustration you have about not being who you want to be at this stage. It won't last forever. When you are in situations that are difficult for you don't expect too much of yourself. Dispense with ideas of what you should or shouldn't be doing too. That promotes more negative feedback loops.

I think it's a case of looking after yourself while you tend to the "rewiring." Spoil yourself. Do nice things for yourself and don't feel guilty! Cultivate situations where you feel comfortable. It's ok to do that. At the same time, I'd suggest LOTS of exercise so some of that nervous energy can be released. It sounds simple but it really does help. (Releases endorphins). Join a club. Get creative. If you want to channel that anger - which I think you need to do - then channel it into new thought patterns such as: "Ok. You want a play it that way? Fine. I'm going to beat this. Nothing is going to stop me being ME." But like a wise teacher of mine once said: "Wise as serpents, gentle as Doves." Don't do a frontal attack but take on the idea of a slow attrition and before you know it you'll be there. Meantime, set about getting that Cognitive Therapy.

Best of luck,

Topal

p.s. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?p=71370#post71370 - listen to those first two pieces of music

 

[em ching]

Thanks Trojan and Topal - the Goldfrapp video made me feel better - very soothing and bouncy! maybe I should try that - Tigger was always happy after all!

Yeah I'll look into the cog therapy but time isn't on my side with a full time job at the mo I'm in a bit of a blip cause nothing fun going on at the moment except boring practical tasks to do etc, and my low confidence has stopped me from seeking fun/ being social - but as you say small steps can't force it..

But I definately need to change my thinking! and recognise that it isn't as easy as I once thought it might be, as the negativity and self criticism keeps re-surfacing and dragging me down again so I'll go for the cog therapy - get an outsider to force me to see the banality of my incessant worrying which doesn't help me or anyone else for that matter.. I guess I need to recognise that life is full of ups and downs, good and bad phases and I need to retain stablility, strength and sense of self at these times and rise above instead of letting outside events bringing me back to square one...

and yeah I will try and get out of myself through creativity and excercise and enjoy the small things I am lucky to have access to!

Thanks a lot,
Have a good week

 

[openheartsf]

Hi EmChing,
I completely relate to what you are going through. I’ve suffered from low self-esteem and depression for a long time. I didn’t even know I had this until I was almost 30, when a therapist pointed out to me that I was depressed.

I’ve tried cognitive-behavioral therapy several times. It’s a slow process and like another poster said…you won’t change overnight.

I have the same nagging self-criticism…I have to keep these thoughts in check constantly. I’ve been looking for the magic formula for years and I haven’t found it yet, but I won’t give up. I’ve tried yoga, meditation, herbs, anti-depressants, therapy, self-help books – there’s no quick fix. I’ve often given up because I want to be fixed NOW! I’m just saying keep trying because some of them do work and give relief.

The thing that we have to do is find some sort of inspiration daily. We must look to the world for expressions of love instead of looking at the ugly side of things. That’s how cognitive behavioral works…it challenges our beliefs.

If we think we are unloveable we MUST find some evidence to prove us wrong. If we think people don’t like us we have to say “wait a minute…so and so came to my birthday party…I am likeable”.

Also, give yourself permission to be shy. Try not to place judgement on this. Lots of people are shy…even famous actresses! It’s okay to be shy…we don’t ALL need to be the life of the party.

You might try doing something like volunteering to help give your life meaning. This weekend I volunteered at a homeless shelter feeding the homeless, and it did help me. I was around people, but no one expected me to be social). And even though I did see the sadness of their situation, I also saw love and respect and generosity and giving which is a beautiful thing.

Hang in there!

 

[em ching]

That's really nice thanks for that
I am also going volunteering soon for a month in Nepal which is kinda scary but v excited - went to a Nepalese restaurant this eve which hyped me up a bit more!

Yeah - at the mo I feel balanced - friends around who are approaching me etc so yeah they must like me right! lol - it's like the negativity over-rides common sense sometimes - but I'm taking it a day at a time as I know how easily I can be thrown off the course of positive thinking.

It is all down to self-belief - allowing yourself to be yourself without trying to bend to every other person, be it the arrogant idiot or the entertainer, sacrfificing yourself and thus in a way the people who know and love you for who you are! plus putting on an act (and usually failing) is usually very transparent..

I think it does just take so long to know and accept yourself though, especially when bombarded by daily pressures in society to be bigger and better etc. But I reckon if you can keep hold of your centre, you can try and ride over your emotions, usually uspet by other people, and gain solace from the nice little/ big and beautiful things the world has to offer - including instances of human kindness

I have also been recommended a book called 'Manage your Mind' which you may have heard of? Haven't managed to get hold of a copy yet..
Yeah your right it's ok to be shy! I never judge or dislike people for it - if anything it can be more honest so why should I be so paranoid!
Most people just want to get along anyways, but I can't help but be wary of a re-visit to the playground sometimes I guess

But who cares anyway! There are people who I love and trust who are important to me and so at times when confronted by a baddie I should just keep them in mind - I'm very lucky to have them after all! And to de-value myself to those low people, would be de-valuing myself to the people I love.. who I am lucky to have!

Thanks again,
Hope you are feeing happy at the mo

 

[openheartsf]

em ching,

Wow, Nepal! That sounds line an incredible opportunity.

I haven’t heard of this book “Manage Your Mind” but it sounds great. Eckhart Tolle in “The Power of Now” says we are addicted to our thoughts and once we can stop thinking we will experience inner peace! Sounds simple doesn’t it? LOL!

Living in the “now” is a modern challenge. How DO we balance everything that we have to do to survive with taking a step back to notice the gift of now and live in the present?

Getting a grip on our emotions is challenging too.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a better attitude right now, I hope you can hold on to that feeling too!

Much love, Openheart

 

[l1ld1c3]

' I want to be confident, proud, impulsive and expressive but I am held back by the scales wanting to have everything balanced and shying away from conflict ( I find it so hard to express anger or stand up for myself with people my age).

My greatest wish at the mo is to be able to retain my individuality and sense of self and be able to express myself and contribute rather than being influenced bu others and fading into insignificance (but I don't seem to know where, who or what that is! everyting I think and feel I question and doubt ( leaving me steretopycially indecisive like a libra, and leading me often going against my instincts putting me in often uncomfortable situations which could have been avoided had I trusted my initial judgement). I need a stronger sense of who I am, but where is that feeling and I'm starting to feel like I missed my opportunity to capture and retain one.'

i quote those because they are my exact same problems... However the only difference is im a Leo but my moon sign is Libra and so i also try to balance everything just like you. I also want to be impulsive and expressive... and i also find it hard to express anger, and i also dont follow my instincts becos i feel i have to please everybody... im just like you and im trying to fix all those problems that you have too... the way im doing it is just always keeping on my guard... and usually instinct is the FIRST thought and so im trying to learn to just act on the first thought rather than sit there for about 5 minutes weighing up the situation on the 'scales' and deciding after the time has gone.

 

[bamboo]

A good person/author who writes about these issues is Cheryl Richardson..she just published The Art of Extreme Self- Care. Worth a look