Wildly diverse interpetations/Crisis of Faith

[NemeanMagik]

Sometimes reading through the threads and people's various interpretations, the interpretations seem so wildly different! The most recent one I was studying due to a reading I did myself was the interpretation of 7.2.2.
It seems very unclear whether to understand a reading in terms of the operations of the psyche and therefore specifically re. one's internal life, or whether the reading is to be understood in relation to behaviours and events in the outer world of experience.
It's unclear too whether the changing lines are to be understood in terms of a period of time, and the developing circumstances of the matter about which I am concerned, or whether the changing lines refer to different levels of understanding or dimensions of the event.
It's uncertain whether if you have a number of changing lines, you read this one or that one or leave them out altogether and focus on a hexagram or both hexagrams or the second hexagram!
~When I ask about someone else I am unclear whether the reading refers to me or the other.....
etc etc.

Sometimes it feels impossible to know.

so when on occasion someone on this board criticizes another for doing more readings for clarification, saying they are simply refusing the message of the first, I think often this is mistaken point of view because often I do another reading simply because the first one made no sense to me! and I mean no matter how long I ponder on it.

Just my thoughts. Also, I am thinking that Tarot cards seem to more clearly differentiate the different characters in a situation more clearly than the I ching - which depends so much on one having to unravel the oh so many variables and at times seems more like pure guess work in determining the answer ...?

 

[sooo]

The Yi is as wild or tame, vast or limited, deep or shallow as the mind which contemplates it and oneself.

 

[pocossin]

I hope my wildly diverse interpretations haven't contributed to you crisis of faith But why should there be a uniformity in interpretation? We have different experiences of life, have studied different aspects of the Yi, and have different values and expectations. My opinion is that divination is valid when it addresses the spirit of the querent, however the interpretation is made, and I'll not lose faith in that even though I don't always live up to my ideals. It's true that some make pronouncements about how things should be done, but such authorities can be ignored, as I generally do.

 

[ricciao]

It's unclear too whether the changing lines are to be understood in terms of a period of time, and the developing circumstances of the matter about which I am concerned, or whether the changing lines refer to different levels of understanding or dimensions of the event.
It's uncertain whether if you have a number of changing lines, you read this one or that one or leave them out altogether and focus on a hexagram or both hexagrams or the second hexagram!

Simply speaking: It depends on the single hexagram on your question and on your situation!

For example 4.4 "Entangled folly bring humiliation." touches more a level of - missing - understanding, while other changing lines are more bound to external events (for example 2.5)
From my experience I can tell that all changing lines have a meaning in the sequence of the hexagram (the lower first, the upper last).

Some changing lines are more evident than others in a certain situation.
The many commentaries might be interesting, but often are not suitable. Often only some words of the yao text of a changing line are meant by the sage literally, as if the sage tries to signify by a rebus.

One has to be patient, for us time sequence is an issue we cannot overcome, so today we cannot understand the meaning of a changing line until we reach the point in time where the meant event will be happening. Then we immediately understand and (hopefully) know how to behave.

As I am always a little insecure about my interpretation I have learned to directly ask the sage if I have understood a changing line right by using the rtcm.

It's not a question of faith but of humility (I cannot understand all at once here and now) and growing experience (when the right moment has come then I understand a piece).

 

[NemeanMagik]

Well I am an extremely 'deep and complex' person so that means the potential for Yi to express itself must be quite phenomenal. I don't think such considerations dispense with my queries.

 

[NemeanMagik]

I am not just talking about everyone being in agreement, I am talking also about my own readings and my own capacity to draw endless and disparate interpretations. Over a period of time the responses are variable to any one particular issue I have sought guidance about. Translations, let alone commentaries can be very different and sometimes it requires extreme accommodations to see the common thread of meaning in relation to one I ching reference point. I can't say that I dispute the essential validity as energy readings, but god the interpretations can sometimes be pretty scattered and obscure and confusing.

 

[NemeanMagik]

please, what is the rtcm. Is this some magic checker that I don't know about?

 

[ricciao]

please, what is the rtcm.

There are some discussions about this in the forum, for example a quote of mine is here, there are links to other quotes.

The Retrospective Three Coin Method is a method discovered by Carol Anthony and Hanna Moog with which you might improve your understanding of a single I Ching answer by simply asking about.

It works with three coins.

You might for example write under your oracle answer in a new line: Did I understand the oracle answer right? And throw these three coins.

Obviously you have only four possible results:
yes, yes, yes = strong yes!
yes, yes, no = tentative yes; yes, but...; you are in the right direction, but haven't got it yet; ...
no, no, yes = tentative no; no, but...; not now; not such, but...
no, no, no = strong no!

You can also ask if you have to ask, you can ask if your questions are annoying, you can ask if you should stop asking, and so on.
It's much better than throwing for additional oracle answers on and on only because you don't understand the first one.

I have developed for myself also the question if an I Ching answer is fulfilled and/or if it is the right time to ask for a new I Ching oracle answer, highly improving such the accuracy of the I Ching answers I receive.

In the past I often exaggerated with throwing oracles when I didn't understand the first answer I got (or I didn't like this answer, or was too impatient to wait for the event(s) to happen ) such loosing myself in space...

Carol Anthony and Hanna Moog developed a complete Taoist cosmology where you detect by RTCM the wrong words/ideas to eliminate them - I tried it with some successful experience, but obviously it's up to each person to follow to it or not.

 

[sooo]

Well I am an extremely 'deep and complex' person so that means the potential for Yi to express itself must be quite phenomenal. I don't think such considerations dispense with my queries.

You left out the contemplation aspect. Someone may be deep and complex but unorganized, erratic, uncreative, or without cognitive skills and the ability to think abstractly or symbolically. The wind always blows what settles in circles. If this is the case, of course you don't think such considerations make sense. A whirlwind does not contemplate. Contemplation requires steadiness, holding onto an idea before stirring up more complexities.

But, yes; Yi's ability to express itself is quite phenomenal. The problem is not the Yi's abilities.

 

[moss elk]

I am talking also about my own readings and my own capacity to draw endless and disparate interpretations.

Yes, you have a keen mind that is skilled at holding a constructed image and analyzing it in many ways.
In other words, a strong imagination or engineering mind.
Now, something you may find useful is to reality check yourself often by asking, "Is this particular line of thinking likely? Plausible? Does this coincide with what I know to be true?"

The ability you have to analyze things is a skill, and grounding skills can be improved by practicing them,
Just like any other.

 

[pocossin]

I am thinking that Tarot cards seem to more clearly differentiate the different characters in a situation more clearly than the I ching

Have you studied the work of diviners at Aeclectic Tarot? It's a wonderful resource that I have not properly used. Tarot has its limitations and confusions. There is the endless multiplication of decks -- nice as art work but otherwise mass confusion. There is also the confusion of layouts -- no uniformity at all, and meanings assigned to the cards appear arbitrary. The lack of clarity in Tarot is concealed by quip-like responses -- none of the pages of material often given by I Ching diviners. And like some I Ching diviners (not me!), many Tarot diviners fear Yes/No questions.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=4135989#post4135989

There are many professionals at Aeclectic Tarot leading lives of poverty for the sake of their art, for which I give them some respect, but, ultimately, There is no Miss Cleo of the I Ching!

 

[bradford]

Both the Yi and the Tarot cards try to divide the whole of human experience into a finite number of regions. 1/64 or 1/78 of infinite is still practically infinite. Plus any given symbol might be asked to answer about love or school or auto repair. The meanings get stretched out, and when you get a big bunch of people with varying degrees of tight and sloppy thinking, the collected meanings can get pretty flaccid. This is why my work is to get closer to core meanings. The actual meaning in a reading might still be way far away from that core, but at least you start out somewhere nearer the center of the territory to be explored.

 

[jzy369]

I had the same challenge when I started study I Ching many years ago. Then I ran into a version of I Ching augury tool developed by one of the most famous Chinese historical figure, Kong Ming, and I finally got the point.

This guy was famous for being super-wise and super-righteous, conquering many seemingly impossible challenges. Mr. Kong Ming bypassed the "coin throw" stuff, and simply assigned meanings of each of the six lines of all 64 hex. For meanings of each each line, he referenced to different relevant lines from coupling and opposing hex so user does not have to deal with changing lines. Then he summarized in wording that is much easier to understand. To ask I Ching on a matter, one simply rndomly one of 384 possibilities, one step only. Many people claimed Kong Ming's tool to be much easier to use and very accurate.

Mr. Kong Ming did this as a normal human being by first understand the content of I Ching from a coherent, philosophical perspectives which were supposed to cover all changes of human's material life and unversal evolutional life. Augury process was a "subconscious/divine" correlation of the question at hand to one of the I Ching "life aspects".

In the same logic, you can create your own I Ching by having one coin, one side is "good" and one side is "bad". Then you ask your question and throw a coin. The effect is similar to traditional I Ching except now you only have 2 aspects of life, instead of 384 aspect of life from Mr. Kong Ming or 4096 aspect of life from our current three-coin method. So the significance of 64 hex and their lines is that they need to cover all aspect of changes of material life and spiritual (ever lasting) nature.

Thus, my own notes contain a version of interpretations that works for me, correlated to my real life experiences, for every line and every hex of I Ching. Personal journal is what host of this board seems to advocate as well. Then everytime I get an answer from I Ching, all the experiences (good and bad), relevant emotions before and afterwards all came to me, clariying paths to my life. Maybe this journey is unique only for me. But I wonder maybe others on this board had experienced something similar.

 

[pocossin]

Then I ran into a version of I Ching augury tool developed by one of the most famous Chinese historical figure, Kong Ming

Is this Kong Ming's system?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Magical-L...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=1468070991

 

[jzy369]

Pocossin:

Yes, it is! I did not read this book specifically but I studied another person's Chinese book who also gave series of talks on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fn-JWracic). I had not met this guy and this guy is not related to me in any way. I just went through his book and his video series.

When you get into that book, you can see they use 384 different sayings, each has a set of logical reasoning of why the wording is what it is. This is quite different from the 3-coin methods. What do you think?

I also have a few words to add about the accuracy of different augury systems. Like I said before, we could just use one coin and achieve 2-aspect result. But if you really do it, you may find it to be very inaccurate. Why? I think because deep in our heart, we don't believe it could be so simple. In another word, we were not sincere enough. 3-coin system is complicated enough and the wording is perplexing enough, so it is easier for many of us to believe and be sincere when asking questions. If you ask a scientist who does not believe I Ching has any "scientific" validity based on his prior trainings, Yi will not be useful for him, thus no faith can be developed.

 

[NemeanMagik]

Yes, I can be all those things..............................

 

[myanon0001]

Mr. Kong Ming bypassed the "coin throw" stuff, and simply assigned meanings of each of the six lines of all 64 hex. [...] To ask I Ching on a matter, one simply rndomly one of 384 possibilities, one step only.

This was discussed in another thread titled kongming shenshu.

I think this reply by boyler and this one by sparhawk are especially interesting.

 

[jzy369]

Thanks for all these links and threads. They have not yet violated my hypothesis that specific methods are not as critical as the "knowledge structure" these methods are tapping into.

I read somewhere I Ching original started with three lines and was used to predict the result of that day's hunting/gathering, where the eight scenarios covers all possible/meaningful outcomes for hunting/gathering trips.

So what all seem to indicate is that our own I Ching interpreation, which has 4 to the 6th power or 4096 variations, has to encompass the aspect of life we intended to cover. To make these interpretations work for us individually, assuming sincerity is not an issue, we could get a starting point (a set of reference books), refine over time via trial and errors and via case-studies from forum like this. This is my current level of understanding. I strongly suspect this is how the original I Ching author developed the original text.

Then there is the "divine" part of matching answers to the question. That is another story.

 

[sooo]

specific methods are not as critical as the "knowledge structure" these methods are tapping into.

:bows:

 

[pocossin]

I read somewhere I Ching original started with three lines and was used to predict the result of that day's hunting/gathering, where the eight scenarios covers all possible/meaningful outcomes for hunting/gathering trips.

I accept Lise Heyboer's hypothesis that the hexagrams began with the guibiao.

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/gui-gua/gui-gua.htm