Yes or No

[bodhidogma]

First of all, I am very happy to have stumbled on this forum. I have been using the I Ching (Brian Walker Browne translation) for about three years now almost on a daily basis and without any outside guidence.

I know very well the pitfalls of yes/no questions. However, they can be useful; for example, "Is THIS what you mean by Treading Tiger's Tail" ? It is basically for clarification.

The technique I came up with using coins is this:

6 (tails tails tails) = definite "NO"
7 (tails tails heads) = "Yes, but..."
8 (heads heads tails) = "No, but you are on the right track"
9 (heads heads heads) = definite "YES"

Does anyone out there have a better system, and/or advice in this area?

Thanks:bows:

 

[rosada]

Traditionally 2 is associated with YIn and is the number ascribed to Heads. 3 is associated with Yang and is ascribed to Tails. Although you can get an authentic reading making Heads represent Yang and Tails represent Yin, you may want to switch to the more widely accepted method.

example:
Tails, tails, tails = 3+3+3 = 9 (solid line, changing)
Tails, heads, heads = 3+2+2 = 7 (solid line, not changing)
Heads, heads, heads = 2+2+2 = 6 (broken line, changing)
Heads, tails, tails = 2+3+3 = 8 (broken line, not changing)

Welcome!
Rosada

 

[bodhidogma]

Thank you, Rosada. I will try to reverse my coin representation. Although I already have been doing it this way for so long, I am not sure I can retrain myself– I could get myself into some serious trouble!

As for the system, is there a better one that I a not considering?

 

[heylise]

I like your system. Makes sense.

What you want to be 'yes', and what 'no' is up to you, same goes for heads and tails. Follow your own feelings about what seems yin or yang or yes or no to yourself, rather than what you 'should' use.
I happen to use them same like you do, head as yang.

So it is
Old yin = definite "NO"
Young yang = "Yes, but..."
Young yin = "No, but you are on the right track"
Old yang = definite "YES"

I can find myself in that. I like the "right track" of young yin. And young yang something like "think a bit more, explore, try another possibility".

 

[hilary]

Isn't this what Carol Anthony calls the 'retrospective three coin method' (RTCM)? I believe she advocates using it to test interpretations, too. I imagine it'd be better than asking Yi yes/no questions.

 

[bamboo]

All the years I have used the I Ching, i always read it the opposite also. three yang lines= heads, heads, heads-= 9, three tails= 6 and etc. But I have read that it doesnt matter so long as you are consistent.

Traditionally 2 is associated with YIn and is the number ascribed to Heads. 3 is associated with Yang and is ascribed to Tails. Although you can get an authentic reading making Heads represent Yang and Tails represent Yin, you may want to switch to the more widely accepted method.

example:
Tails, tails, tails = 3+3+3 = 9 (solid line, changing)
Tails, heads, heads = 3+2+2 = 7 (solid line, not changing)
Heads, heads, heads = 2+2+2 = 6 (broken line, changing)
Heads, tails, tails = 2+3+3 = 8 (broken line, not changing)

Welcome!
Rosada

 

[fkegan]

Coin side and Yang/Yin

Hi bodhidogma et al.

The association of coin sides to Yang or Yin depends upon one's belief in what is the "important" side of a coin. The Tails as Yang view is that the side with the value of the coin (one cent for penny, etc) is the important one. The Heads as Yang view arises from the notion that the side with the big picture portrait on it is most important and the other side, including the text of monetary value is the minor side.

Each person makes their own choice, including deciding what authority to choose. I did have an experience of someone casting oracles with coins who used a totally opposite system to me--using tails for Yang and using the first toss for the top line of the oracle. I also was aware of the questions being asked and the interpretation given to the oracles. I found when I reconsidered the coin tosses, using the oracle hexagrams as I reckoned them and interpreted them in terms of the questions asked, I also found that my oracles answered those same questions from my (totally different) perspective too.

In general, I have come to believe that oracles are quite independent of the system used or choices made. You set out the rules that you like and the timing of the Cosmos gives an answer which you interpret in your own way. This is a view that what matters is the timing overall which relates to gravity in terms of the aftermath of the Big Bang.

Traditional non-oracle psychology developed a nifty yes/no technique. Once the choices are reduced to yes or no only, then assign heads/tails. Flip the coin. If the result answers your question--great. If it doesn't you know you like the other choice, again the question is answered.

The reason why Yi oracles are usually not used for yes/no questions is that yes/no is always a verbal trick. It can only be some form of: do you agree with proposition P or its negation? This is part of a Socratic dichotomy where only the proposition P is real. The Yi oracles describe how humans perceive the process of their experience. Totally different notion where the oracle has its own independent explanation on your subject inquiry.

When you frame a yes/no question you maintain control in yourself as framer seeking agreement or refusal to agree from your coins. Apparently, you use this yes/no to seek explanation of the interpretation of the hexagram oracle. This is like the older tortoise shell oracle which was done in pairs of questions, one the negation of the other and a good result was one positive result and the other negative (and really good oracles brought 10 pairs of agreeing results cf. hex41.5, 42.2.

Whatever method you choose, you can only continue it if you find the results useful. Since they are useful they will work for you at least in general.

Your system seems based upon the notion that three of the same coin is very much Yes or No although in oracle interpretation three of the same coin value is overweight and changes into its opposite. Seems a bit muddled in terms of the theory of flux built into the Yi oracle.

Frank

 

[willowfox]

All the years I have used the I Ching, i always read it the opposite also. three yang lines= heads, heads, heads-= 9, three tails= 6 and etc. But I have read that it doesnt matter so long as you are consistent.

This is the method the vast majority of I Ching authors use and the one that makes the most sense. Personally, I think it does matter.

 

[hilary]

The reason why Yi oracles are usually not used for yes/no questions is that yes/no is always a verbal trick. It can only be some form of: do you agree with proposition P or its negation? This is part of a Socratic dichotomy where only the proposition P is real. The Yi oracles describe how humans perceive the process of their experience. Totally different notion where the oracle has its own independent explanation on your subject inquiry.

That's a very good point.

The reason I suggested that this would be a good alternative to using Yi for yes/no questions has to do with the process of choosing a question. How many people who ask 'yes/no' questions really want to know nothing more than 'yes' or 'no'? And how many are just framing their question this way as an alternative to thinking about what they mean by 'Should I...?' or 'success'? Creating circumstances where if you ask for 'yes' or 'no' that's all you can possibly receive might encourage some more thoughtful questions, I should think.

As for the numerical value of coin faces - no, there's no 'right' answer; I seem to remember Brad told us once that there's no consensus even among Chinese authors about Chinese coins.

 

[Trojina]

All the years I have used the I Ching, i always read it the opposite also. three yang lines= heads, heads, heads-= 9, three tails= 6 and etc. But I have read that it doesnt matter so long as you are consistent.

I do it that way too but I'm sure it doesn't matter as long as you are consistent...

 

[rosada]

I think I see an I Ching story evolving here:

1. Am I understanding this right?
2. Or am I understanding it wrong?
3. I'm totally confused.
4. Hey guys I'm new here. Which is yin and which is yang?
5. Oh geez, leave it to the new guy to bring up THE most controversial topic in the universe. Let's just discuss it quietly..no conflict...no conflict.
6. Hmm, go back to the beginning of divination and discover there's no agreement.
7. Okay, chose which side you support.
8. Others choose the opposite.
9. It's all just outer appearance anyway.
10. The main thing is to get the oracle to answer!

 

[bostonian]

Sorry for coming to this thread late and for asking a tangential question. But regarding:

I know very well the pitfalls of yes/no questions.

What are those pitfalls? Actually most of my questions are of the nature: will person A take action B; or will my endeavor succeed? Are these less than optimal questions?

 

[hilary]

Frank's post on the previous page described the essence of those pitfalls very clearly. 'Will person A take action B?' - but what if person A will only take action B if you provide conditions C, or what if person A is actually more likely to take action Z, which you'd never conceived of?

If I were going to ask about another person at all (and that's a whole other debate), I'd ask, 'What's A likely to do?' And maybe Yi would describe action B, but I'm also leaving open the possibility that it'll describe something I've never thought of.

The other (related) consideration is a purely practical one: how easy is it going to be to understand the answer? There isn't a hexagram for 'yes' or 'no' (hence Bodhidogma's suggestion), so if you ask for that you're near enough guaranteeing that you won't get a 'direct' answer to your question. You'll have to interpret the answer as if you'd asked something else - not 'will I succeed?' but 'how will I do?' or 'what if I try?' for instance.

Often this is so easy you hardly notice you're doing it. (Will I succeed? 43.1. Nope.) Sometimes it isn't, and before you can make any sense of the answer you have to go back and intuit, with hindsight, which question Yi is really answering (eg was it 'What if I try?' or 'What best to do?').

Rosada...

11. It answered!
12. Oh.

 

[bostonian]

So what about things that are totally out of one's hands. For example, you're seeking a job and have gone through the entire process -- CV, interviews, etc.--and you're just waiting for the decision. Can you ask: will I get the job? Or California is getting some wild fires these days. Can a Californian ask: will my area be affected? Or even a question about a totally random event: will I win the raffle?

 

[fkegan]

So what about things that are totally out of one's hands. For example, you're seeking a job and have gone through the entire process -- CV, interviews, etc.--and you're just waiting for the decision. Can you ask: will I get the job? Or California is getting some wild fires these days. Can a Californian ask: will my area be affected? Or even a question about a totally random event: will I win the raffle?

Hi Bostonian,
One may ask any question; however there is nothing in the Yi about returning an answer you can take to the bank. More precisely, the Yi oracle is all about insight at this moment and even the act of casting the oracle may make for an independent force that will change everything.

The Yi oracle describes a process in remarkably sophisticated detail that offers great insight. What will happen with other people in some future time involves many factors which would only connect to some current oracle if the overall process and momentum is fixed and nothing happens after the oracle is cast to make things different.

A Yi oracle speaks obviously in symbolism and how you interpret that symbolism is your issue. For example, in another thread you wondered if an oracle involving hex 14 about a business venture guaranteed you wealth and success. Then you noted the oracle had moving lines, then different moving lines than you earlier mentioned.

Overall, the only thing that struck me as relevant was that hexagram 14 describes a situation of five powerful yang lines organized by a single gentle Yin line in the 5th place of the ruler. Far from guaranteeing any outcome, I would take that oracle as a warning: In order to succeed there must be a set of equal, able folks working together with the central control and organization open to all yet able to maintain discipline of the whole like a proper hub to a powerful wheel.

Taking any Yi oracle to the bank and spending the wealth and success you feel you were promised is like any other example of day dreaming about end results before you actually bring the hard work to a successful conclusion.

It takes a while asking whatever questions you like and living through the oracle answers to come to your own understanding of and relationship to the Yi. I would suggest keeping a journal of your questions, Yi oracles and results as you experience them. The Yi might give you lottery results or future headlines but then you will have missed out on the insights and meaning that were available. And who knows what willing the raffle might bring about in your life? You didn't ask so the Yi can't help you there.

Frank

 

[bostonian]

thanks, Frank, that's very helpful

 

[heylise]

It might very well be that all oracles started as yes-no devices. Counting petals, longer and shorter stick, flipping a coin, and so on. But the need for advice is obviously in the long run more important than the yes or no. Most people rather decide yes or no on insight than on 'someone' telling them.

It depends a bit on your mood, or age, or self-confidence. People in love ask "does he love me.. yes or no??", but at other times they are often very well able to ask advice instead of yes-no. Nature overwhelms them in a way which makes them lose their own power to decide - temporarily hopefully.

 

[loverofknowledge]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I am replying to an older thread. I hope that this message will get to its intended audience. Thanks in advance.

What you say about about yes/no questions is very interesting and intriguing. Could you explain further, or direct me to a discussion, which clarifies for me how most productively to frame I Ching questions?

What you say here: about yes/no questions. It sounds like you're saying that the I Ching helps us to formulate a way of seeing our experience -- and describing it -- rather than just confirming a fixed notion that we already have.

For instance, if I am concerned about a job and ask, "will this job come through," that limits me because it makes me a helpless victim of a preordained fate. If I ask, "What may I learn from this job opportunity?" then regardless of whether the job is offered to me or not, I am supporting my own growth as a person.

For instance, right now I am concerned about a job opportunity. It sounds like a very good opportunity and I've made all of the applications. I will not find out whether it will come through for a few weeks. There was one possible problem about this opportunity though, concerning my qualifications and the politics of the organization.

How would I ask a question of the IChing productively? What would the point of my question be? (considering that in fact I am really anxious to know what will happen!).

Thanks very much! LOK


"The reason why Yi oracles are usually not used for yes/no questions is that yes/no is always a verbal trick. It can only be some form of: do you agree with proposition P or its negation? This is part of a Socratic dichotomy where only the proposition P is real. The Yi oracles describe how humans perceive the process of their experience. Totally different notion where the oracle has its own independent explanation on your subject inquiry."

Hi bodhidogma et al.

The association of coin sides to Yang or Yin depends upon one's belief in what is the "important" side of a coin. The Tails as Yang view is that the side with the value of the coin (one cent for penny, etc) is the important one. The Heads as Yang view arises from the notion that the side with the big picture portrait on it is most important and the other side, including the text of monetary value is the minor side.

Each person makes their own choice, including deciding what authority to choose. I did have an experience of someone casting oracles with coins who used a totally opposite system to me--using tails for Yang and using the first toss for the top line of the oracle. I also was aware of the questions being asked and the interpretation given to the oracles. I found when I reconsidered the coin tosses, using the oracle hexagrams as I reckoned them and interpreted them in terms of the questions asked, I also found that my oracles answered those same questions from my (totally different) perspective too.

In general, I have come to believe that oracles are quite independent of the system used or choices made. You set out the rules that you like and the timing of the Cosmos gives an answer which you interpret in your own way. This is a view that what matters is the timing overall which relates to gravity in terms of the aftermath of the Big Bang.

Traditional non-oracle psychology developed a nifty yes/no technique. Once the choices are reduced to yes or no only, then assign heads/tails. Flip the coin. If the result answers your question--great. If it doesn't you know you like the other choice, again the question is answered.

The reason why Yi oracles are usually not used for yes/no questions is that yes/no is always a verbal trick. It can only be some form of: do you agree with proposition P or its negation? This is part of a Socratic dichotomy where only the proposition P is real. The Yi oracles describe how humans perceive the process of their experience. Totally different notion where the oracle has its own independent explanation on your subject inquiry.

When you frame a yes/no question you maintain control in yourself as framer seeking agreement or refusal to agree from your coins. Apparently, you use this yes/no to seek explanation of the interpretation of the hexagram oracle. This is like the older tortoise shell oracle which was done in pairs of questions, one the negation of the other and a good result was one positive result and the other negative (and really good oracles brought 10 pairs of agreeing results cf. hex41.5, 42.2.

Whatever method you choose, you can only continue it if you find the results useful. Since they are useful they will work for you at least in general.

Your system seems based upon the notion that three of the same coin is very much Yes or No although in oracle interpretation three of the same coin value is overweight and changes into its opposite. Seems a bit muddled in terms of the theory of flux built into the Yi oracle.

Frank

 

[Trojina]

If the question is aimed at fkegan you are out of luck as he died some time ago

 

[Trojina]

although I thought I saw his green light on for a moment there

I swear this forum is haunted.....in the nicest possible way.

 

[hilary]

Hello, I am new to this forum and I am replying to an older thread. I hope that this message will get to its intended audience. Thanks in advance.

As Trojan says, some of the intended audience is dead - but also some of us are not (and then there are the ghosts).

What you say about about yes/no questions is very interesting and intriguing. Could you explain further, or direct me to a discussion, which clarifies for me how most productively to frame I Ching questions?

What you say here: about yes/no questions. It sounds like you're saying that the I Ching helps us to formulate a way of seeing our experience -- and describing it -- rather than just confirming a fixed notion that we already have.

For instance, if I am concerned about a job and ask, "will this job come through," that limits me because it makes me a helpless victim of a preordained fate. If I ask, "What may I learn from this job opportunity?" then regardless of whether the job is offered to me or not, I am supporting my own growth as a person.

I don't have anything much to add to that! Yes, the idea of asking questions that invite a new way of seeing rather than just staying within the boxes of what we already know is a good one. There's only one difficulty...

For instance, right now I am concerned about a job opportunity. It sounds like a very good opportunity and I've made all of the applications. I will not find out whether it will come through for a few weeks. There was one possible problem about this opportunity though, concerning my qualifications and the politics of the organization.

How would I ask a question of the IChing productively? What would the point of my question be? (considering that in fact I am really anxious to know what will happen!).

…namely that we are anxious to know what will happen.

Sometimes we want an idea of what'll happen later to be sure of what to do now - in which case it's better to go direct to asking, 'What best to do now?' and stay in the present with that. But sometimes the only point of asking is because we don't want to live with the uncertainty any longer.

I asked one of those myself just recently, about the prognosis for a friend who was seriously ill. I did pause in the midst of asking to wonder what the point of my question was, and realised it was just that I was finding not knowing too hard to cope with. The odd thing is that although after casting I wasn't completely confident in my interpretation - too stressed! - I still felt better, and could think about other things for the first time. Not sure how that works...

 

[sooo]

I still felt better, and could think about other things for the first time. Not sure how that works...

I feel it as unwinding, relaxing the spring. My mind has something constructive to play with. I know there's always a better way, but sometimes discover there isn't, and fate determines going through a flood. I feel better simply because it focuses my mind toward better thoughts, regardless.

 

[svenrus]

I'm glad to read this thread. Because often I'm standing in this situation: Shall/shall not, or YES/NO.
As a child I sometimes when in deep doubt and having no one to ask directly, counted the leafs on a branch on a tree "Shall-shall not-shall" and so on until the last leaf was either Yes or No.
When colsulting the I somehow I know that I should not expect an Yes or a No but rather an advice that mostly anticipates an event that I haven't a chance to see as it lies in the future....
Anyway, I find myself wishing for an Yes or No as the reply which the I gives me. And I wonder here about one thing: As the first hexagram is like Action and the second like Reaction or "Go !" and "Wait !" or "Yes" and "No", Light/Dark... if this could be an indication that it's so on the rest of the way ie. hex. 3 Yes, hex. 4 No, hex. 5 Yes..... That the inherent character of those hexagrams with an odd number is Yes and those with even number No - That the first two hexagrams cast a reflection of Yes/No throughout the whole of the series of hexagrams. Hex. 63: like "Done !" and hex. 64: "Still need to be done" with 'Has it been done ?' hex. 63 Yes/hex. 64 No.

This is how I sometimes think about Yes and No throughout the I Ching....

 

[hilary]

I'm glad to read this thread. Because often I'm standing in this situation: Shall/shall not, or YES/NO.
As a child I sometimes when in deep doubt and having no one to ask directly, counted the leafs on a branch on a tree "Shall-shall not-shall" and so on until the last leaf was either Yes or No.
When colsulting the I somehow I know that I should not expect an Yes or a No but rather an advice that mostly anticipates an event that I haven't a chance to see as it lies in the future....
Anyway, I find myself wishing for an Yes or No as the reply which the I gives me. And I wonder here about one thing: As the first hexagram is like Action and the second like Reaction or "Go !" and "Wait !" or "Yes" and "No", Light/Dark... if this could be an indication that it's so on the rest of the way ie. hex. 3 Yes, hex. 4 No, hex. 5 Yes..... That the inherent character of those hexagrams with an odd number is Yes and those with even number No - That the first two hexagrams cast a reflection of Yes/No throughout the whole of the series of hexagrams. Hex. 63: like "Done !" and hex. 64: "Still need to be done" with 'Has it been done ?' hex. 63 Yes/hex. 64 No.

This is how I sometimes think about Yes and No throughout the I Ching....

It's an interesting thought, and I'm prepared to bet that you face frustration and bafflement if you try to apply it all through. Yi is like that with the satisfying, simple patterns. (Random examples: 13-14. 23-24. 49-50.)

I feel it as unwinding, relaxing the spring. My mind has something constructive to play with. I know there's always a better way, but sometimes discover there isn't, and fate determines going through a flood. I feel better simply because it focuses my mind toward better thoughts, regardless.

Yes - not a million miles from the question, 'Why do we divine at all?' A matter of turning the mind around, reconnecting, setting oneself back in context. 24, perhaps.

 

[sooo]

Yes - not a million miles from the question, 'Why do we divine at all?' A matter of turning the mind around, reconnecting, setting oneself back in context. 24, perhaps.

Precisely. Well said.

 

[svenrus]

It's an interesting thought, and I'm prepared to bet that you face frustration and bafflement if you try to apply it all through. Yi is like that with the satisfying, simple patterns. (Random examples: 13-14. 23-24. 49-50.)

Yea, I maybe was a bit speculative in that. But it's nevertheless something that occupies my mind now and then. Certainly I Ching is far beyond Yes and No. (... and yet includes it in a strange way, I think...)

 

[duffy214]

Thank you everyone for this interesting thread! For most of my years of consulting with the I Ching, I sought relief in times of stress (panic) and so often craved a simple prediction. These days, my sessions are daily, and are meditations more than answer-seeking... as it appears it is for many of you, too. Now, when I crave resolution, and of course I still often wish for an unambiguous certainty of an outcome, I try to remind myself that the I Ching is the book of CHANGES. What I mean to say is, for myself, very often when I long for simple resolution, the real answer may well be "yes, and no." The I Ching points us to the current trend in the patterned randomness of life. Sometimes it's response is a warning not to proceed in a certain way, or an admonition to carry on with something, and these are a version of yes and no, but it so rarely leaves us with a single option. In my meditations, I regularly get the sense that I've been given several perspectives to try on... if seen from this position in your current trend, you might expect this sort of result, and if seen from this (other) position, you might expect this sort... etc. Well, there's a bit of blather from me on this very interesting and useful thread. Thanks again.

 

[loverofknowledge]

Hello everybody, I posted this question in October and then, being new, had trouble navigating my way to find my original post. But I've found it now and wanted to thank all of you for this interesting and lively exchange! I am looking forward to more discussion. Thanks again. LOK

 

[loverofknowledge]

although I thought I saw his green light on for a moment there

I swear this forum is haunted.....in the nicest possible way.

Oh, sorry to hear that he has died! An intelligent and wonderful person, clearly! LOK

 

[loverofknowledge]

Yes, usually when I ask about the future a yes/no question, I am finding "not knowingI " too stressful. That's just it. However, perhaps there's another way to look at it. Sometimes I do "just know" what will happen. Maybe I am asking the I Ching what will happen in order to tune into my "just knowing" what it will so that I can hear my voice of intuition about it. I usually become anxious about what will happen when it feels like the ball is in the other person's court and I'm waiting for a reply,e.g. about a job. It may be though that I could enhance the quality of my waiting if I could take my mind off what will happen. It sounds like that may have been your experience, Hilary, when you asked about your friend's prognosis. Hope it all went well for you and your friend.