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Yi as spiritual guide

dobro p

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I may be off the mark here. (That's just a disclaimer.)

I first read the Yi 35 years ago. I didn't know what it was or how to use it, and I just read it through like a book, starting with the introductions by Jung and Baynes, and reading through to the end. I thought it was spiritual. I thought it pointed the way. I read it the same way I was reading the Gita and the Tao Te Ching.

Then I used it for a few years and I found out it was an oracle. An oracle isn't a spiritual book - it's a tool for accessing less-than-clear knowledge about what's really going on in a situation.

Now, I'm coming back to my original impression. It seems to me that every hexagram is a major spiritual lesson. Not the individual lines so much - they're more microcosm - but the main texts strike me more and more as spiritual teachings. Sure, they're oracles - and that's how we use them. But I also think they can be seen as a kind of 'course in spiritual perception'. Take Hex 62, for example. I've always struggled to understand its message, and never with much success really. But as a spiritual message, it's pretty clear: see the divine in every little thing - no need to reach for the big spectacular vision when it's right down here in every atom, every detail of your apparently mundane existence.

I'm not going to bore you with the other 63 meanings I've seen in the main hexagram texts. Work it out yourself. :)
 

lightofdarkness

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The I Ching, traditional and universal, can represent 'all there is' and as such is a language that covers any perspective, be it spiritual or economic or political etc etc It id the LOCAL context that grounds the universal categories of the IC, that particularises them. SO pick ANY subject and the IC is a filter through which one can analyse etc that subject (and so we can use it to analyse The Structure of Personality or emotions or 'god' or 'consciousness' etc etc etc

Chris.
 

renqizhen

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My understanding of the Yijing or Classic of Changes is as a book of wisdom and spiritual guide to the Tao.

Yijing has been part of the Daoist tradition for almost two thousand years, and expresses a world outlook completely aligned with the tenets of Daoist beliefs and philosophy. Yijing is still used by Daoist priests in China for the purpose of divination, although this is illegal and banned as "sorcery and superstition" by the authorities.

While the core gua and yao predates both Confucianism and Daoism, most of the commentaries in the Ten Wings are permeated with a Daoist outlook. Traditionally these comments were attributed to the Sage, Confucius. Several sinologists are now convinced that the appended statements were authored by Daoist masters.

In my experience you have to listen carefully to the inner meaning of each gua and yao, the judgments and explanations in the appended statements, AND you need to access different Chinese commentaries through the ages to fully grasp a reading.(Most yao lines will capture one aspect or phase of the Changes, outlining optional behaviors or alternative actions.)

I prefer the comments by Cheng Yi and Zhu Yi (embedded in Wilhelm) and Wang Bi any day. This does not completely exclude the usability of Western psychological interpretations. There are one or two interesting commentaries, while the rest reminds me of the man who tried to still his hunger by eating the menu instead of enjoying the meal.

Please feel free to visit my blog, which includes Yijing readings applied to everyday business situations. It's at http://renqizhen.typepad.com

Five blessings!
 
P

peace

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I agree with the I Ching being a spiritual guide first.

For me, if I followed it spiritually - I wouldn't need to ask so many questions. I would always behave in a way that gave me peace and I would be able to handle situations appropriately and with the best influence and adaptation that would work in my favor at any given moment in time.

Many times I will ask: What should I focus on today?
It always brings me a more peaceful day when I follow the reading - even if I had wished it would be different.

As for psychological readings - i.e. Carol Anthony - it's one thing to get/be spiritual - it's another to manifest HOW to do that - especially when you're dealing with other people -who, may not be as "spiritual" as you would hope.

My two cents....
Rosalie
 

hilary

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Hello Renqizhen,

Have you seen Denis Mair's site? It is full of the wisdom of the Chinese tradition, and seems like something you would enjoy.
 

lightofdarkness

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Renqizhen, your focus is obviously traditional, but being so it is missing some aspects of the 'universal' I Ching not included, or vaguely touched-upon in the traditional material. This does not mean you need those aspects to 'live an IC life' but seeing your use of the I Ching in business etc I would think a universal approach would benefit more due to its precision.

The musings of Cheng Yi, Wang Bi etc show a lack of understanding/awareness of the full spectrum shown in the universal IC; IOW their intuitions were good but lacked depth, a depth only discoverable through seeing the IC through more 'universals-oriented' eyes.

That said, the attraction of the traditional material and its interpretors/translators is through the 'mystique' of yin/yang symbolisms combined with ancient chinese and that can be fun I suppose.

The full spectrum of the IC comes out in using the 'natural' sequence derived from recursion of the yin/yang dichotomy where the resulting symbolisms represent core qualities derived from the dynamics of our neurology (and so the intuitive use of the IC by traders etc! ;-))

IOW since the mechanism in deriving the trigrams and hexagrams is that used to derive meaning in general so the IC serves as a source of analogy/metaphor for ANY particular perspective across all scales (all due to the self-referencing of the IC)

For a focus on the static within the dynamic see

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/IChingPlus

The application of the IC to business etc is best mapped using the binary sequence as it covers different levels of energy etc and captures the dynamics of production, distribution, filtration, and exchange (labels derived in the WEST that are re-labelled in the EAST into five-phase labels of wood, fire, earth, metal, and water that in turn 'unfold' to give us the eight trigrams of the IC)

Chris.
 

dobro p

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Hi Chris -

"SO pick ANY subject and the IC is a filter through which one can analyse etc that subject (and so we can use it to analyse The Structure of Personality or emotions or 'god' or 'consciousness' etc etc etc"

Yes, exactly. It's the ultimately versatile book - it can usefully be applied to any subject, just as you say. But how is that possible unless the guy(s) who put it together were incredibly insightful into 'the way of things' - that is to say, thoroughly acquainted with the spiritual dimension of *everything*? You know how traditionally (and even today, but less so perhaps) a spiritual teacher or group would have a public or exoteric dimension to their activities, and then would have an inner circle or esoteric dimension as well for those who could usefully benefit from it. Well, I'm thinking the person/people who crafted the Yi built that right into the oracle. Which means it's primarily a spiritual document, a spiritual instrument, a spiritual lesson, but that you can also use it to decide whether you should buy that house, take that job, marry that girl and so on, if that's what you're concerned about.
 

matt

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"Yes, exactly. It's the ultimately versatile book - it can usefully be applied to any subject, just as you say. But how is that possible unless the guy(s) who put it together were incredibly insightful into 'the way of things'"

Spot on!
 

jte

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Well, Dobro, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

"...the guy(s) who put it together were... thoroughly acquainted with the spiritual dimension of *everything*..."

Not quite sure what you mean by "everything" - there are certainly lots of things in existence now that did not exist thousands (or even hundreds) of years ago. Most of them built by man.

I think that perhaps the authors very well understood how spirituality (the particular form of spirituality that the Yi teaches/imparts)is "built/manifested/reflected" both internally and in the outer world across cyclical time. Hence the book "works with us" to help us grow spiritually and we get synchronicity/omens (and sometimes other experiences) that show up in/from the outer world as we develop.

It is also possible that the book (or maybe the divinatory method) somehow accesses external "intelligences" - and that these intelligences can guide us via the book. While that idea may seem far-fetched to some, the Yi itself suggests this in the Shuo Kua. And numerous hexagrams refer to "gods and spirits" as well. So if we take the explanatory text (such as it is) that comes with the book at face value, we have another reason to consider that as a possiblity.

Apologies if the above is kind of vague, it's hard to describe these things + I can only work from my own (admittedly/presumably incomplete) experience...

- Jeff
 

lightofdarkness

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Hi Dobro,

the making of the traditional IC appears to have been done in an ad hoc manner but rooted in the application of the A/NOT-A dichotomy (good omen/bad omen etc etc).

The form of representation used in the IC evolved to then guaranteed the self-referencing of A/NOT-A and that means the emeregence of the basic qualities behind the IC where the IC acts as metaphor for the communication of those qualities.

In Western specialisations, rooted in the elements perspective with various forms of representation, the rigid structure of layering the representations of A/NOT-A did not go as deep as the IC such that diversity in expression was too quick and so precision was sacrificed for 'colour'.

Thus in the West there is a starting-off with fours, Earth, Water, Fire, Air with little recognition of the development path of these qualities being recursion, starting with Earth/Air that then self-references to give us the labels of: Earth/Air, Water/Fire (these map to the DIGRAMS of the IC). The IC goes one step more to give the additional dichotomies of mountain/lake, wind/thunder and so the TRIGRAMS of the IC and so more precision prior to adding 'embelishments' ;-)

- we can map the three layers of the Tarot to the IC and so on into the underlying sameness of qualities derived from the neurology (see such pages as: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/taro.html )

AS covered in the thread on Astrology and the Yi, the core qualities of the IC are 'mapped' to the core qualities of Western astrological signs but in a distorted manner where the recursive nature is skewed to hide the development path (and so 4s into 8s becomes 12 - e.g. Leo/Sagittarius are 'refinements' of Aries - Aries is a digram level, leo/sagittarius trigram levels. The Western developement path did not maintain the structure, the hierarchy, as the IC has done other than in the subtle distinctions of signs as cardinal, mutable etc categories - the IC maintains the formal differentiations and in doing so can be more precise in categorisation (or more simple in describing the categories)

Given the manner in which the brain works off making distinctions (and so A/NOT-A categories) it was INEVITABLE that something like the IC would emerge given evolution and our 'drive' as a species to interpret.

The references etc to the realm of the 'spiritual' reflect anthropomorphism at work in these sorts of ancient systems where the positive results from the workings would elicit the 'how' question and at the times there was no neurosciences to supply answers - so out came the projection of 'us' into some spiritual realm and local history/legend/mythology became the source of analogies to describe the basic qualities encoded into the IC. (same story as in not understanding how context can PUSH us and we can feel the push. That feeling led to the creation of a whole universe of 'angels and demons' - see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/angels.html )

IOW there is no need for references to 'external intelligences' etc., (this does not mean there are none - it just means there is no need for thst reference) there is enough information around to show that such reference is unneccesary in understanding the development and use of the IC - that said, such reference is understandable in that there is a lot more coming out of the Universal IC material showing the depth we are dealing with and so a depth often intuitived by users of the IC but not formally understood until current times.

AS for using it to advise on relationships - sort of. The Universal IC perspective does not support such activity other than (a) the WHOLE of the IC applies to ANY situation and (b) the use of 'random/miraculous' methods will sort the hexagrams into a sequence of 64 from best fit to worst fit. Our consciousness will then zoom-in on the particular hexagram AS IF it was the 'best fit' - and so ignore all of the rest!

Using coin tossing there is a 1 in 64 chance of the hexagram being the 'best fit' but ANY hexagram, be it the 32nd best fit or the 63rd will elicit some meaning and consciousness will do the rest of 'making' it fit.

The ICPlus focus is on the dynamics of the brain and so recognises your feelings, your unconscious, as being a good source to ask questions of re the situation and so a better chance of consistantly deriving the 'best fit' hexagram (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusProact.html )

This will map out the context, what is pushing your buttons and your consciousness can then decide whether to get more involved with the existing or assert one's own or just 'move on'.

IOW we use the IC to give us the 'big picture' - a picture our consciousness will often not give - and then we work from there in fitting in to that picture; and so the overall movement from tne general to the particular (and we can work in reverse from the particular to the general)

IOW using coin tossing or yarrow sticks or marbles will elicit a hexagram covering an ASPECT of the whole, not the whole where THAT is in the form of the local context sorting the set of universals into some particular order. The 'full story' of the moment is then in understanding that order. BUT, since all hexagrams 'work' for a moment so the coin toss can (a) give you the true best fit (1 in 64) or (b) give you a view of some aspect of the whole (any of the rest of the hexagrams) that you have not thought of in consideration of the situation. Its a bit like discussing it with a friend who asks "have you considered THIS..." and they come up with something you never considered.

Note that the realm of consciousness (associated with the spritual') is a realm of mediation. In this realm there is the sense of the 'spiritual' in the form of 'guides' - but then that is what happens in the realm of mediation - either we mediate our selves or we get help ;-)

Chris.
 

jerryd

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Ok I think I will try to analize God. This sounds challenging. Ill get back to you all on this one.
 

matt

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"the making of the traditional IC appears to have been done in an ad hoc manner but rooted in the application of the A/NOT-A dichotomy (good omen/bad omen etc etc)."

Hey Chris, I agree, the differentials between good/bad and good/evil is an element which can frustrate me in some of the traditional translations/interpretations. I believe this method to be a poor representation of the IC's original intent. I feel that the origins of the IC were far more... complete.. in their understanding of energy, and its only in later analysis that scholars have tainted and misunderstood its true application. In energy terms, there is no such thing as a good or bad, energy just is, forever, perpetuating, fulfilling, augmenting, diminishing and transforming frome one state ot another.


"Using coin tossing there is a 1 in 64 chance of the hexagram being the 'best fit' but ANY hexagram, be it the 32nd best fit or the 63rd will elicit some meaning and consciousness will do the rest of 'making' it fit."

Question:- Does this statement also apply if syncronicity is a guiding force?
At the centre of every atom exists an energy that does respond to human thought and suggestion - which is one of the problems in many quantum experiements - observation actually effects the results, our thoughts are influential. So is there such a thing as coincidence if such a bond exists bewteen everything?

"Our consciousness will then zoom-in on the particular hexagram AS IF it was the 'best fit' - and so ignore all of the rest!"

A very good point! Again, going back to the point about the origins of the IC, I believe its 'founders' intentions were to use the 'system' as a more universal tool. But as the IC has fell under scrutiny in past centuries, many of the true meanings have indeed been lost, and our focus has actually narrowed to viewing just a small part of the whole. I'm not saying this is wrong, sometimes we can glimpse the whole if we visualise a part of it, but it is important that our consciousness does not restrict itself to a vision too narrow. When we divine, we will often just look at 1 or 2 hexagrams, when in fact the WHOLE of the IC is relevent for that question, which leads onto the following quote...

"The 'full story' of the moment is then in understanding that order. BUT, since all hexagrams 'work' for a moment so the coin toss can (a) give you the true best fit (1 in 64) or (b) give you a view of some aspect of the whole (any of the rest of the hexagrams) that you have not thought of in consideration of the situation. Its a bit like discussing it with a friend who asks "have you considered THIS..." and they come up with something you never considered."

Especially the last sentance - thats the key. Chris, very well explained - divination is a reflection of life - that is why we are all on these boards, exchaning ideas, considering perspectives that we do not consider beforehand, because they allow us to see more of the whole. This is why the question used in divination is so very important, as is the thought that comes before the question. For example - If you have an issue you need to question the IC over, then it is best to gather all of your thoughts/ideas/feelings on the issue BEFORE you throw the coins/yarrow, so your current perspective on the situation is relatively clear. I don't divine a lot, but if I do, then my question is normally something like;
"What am I NOT considering in this situation?"
I do not need to ask about the things I already know or feel, I would just like to ask about anything that I am missing. Like Chris said, its like asking a friend for a new perspective so we may see with more clarity.
Then, the IC does not replace your thoughts, it does not impose or instruct a direction/non direction, it simply tells you how energy is moving more as a whole.

I remember my first ever post here, slightly arrogant, a little overbearing, a tad impatient! I deffinately took the wrong approach, I always try to say to myself - 'If something irritates, frustrates, or agitates me, then I am not seeing it in the best way, try to be more creative Matt"
I let my frustrations run free in that first post and didnt listen to myself. But let me explain the cause of my frustrations (which have changed since) - I had just come across this board, and found many were using the I Ching to apply a very narrow focus, and even using it as a tool to aid them in the direction they should take or choices they should make. Wait! I agree that the IC DOES help us in direction and choice, but it should never take away our own processes of intuition and reasoning. It seemed many were allowing it to do that - using a nrrow focus on 1 or 2 hexagrams to view a difficult situation - and then choosing a course of action based on this reading. But what about all the other hexagrams? In any question, ALL the hexagrams, ALL the energy applies, it just depends on the dynamic the energy is moving in.
To focus on a small reading is great, as long as you use it in conjunction with everything else, but not as the sole perspective of a situation.
I'm not sure if I have made any of this clear lol!!! Does this sound more like a rambling?!
Ahh well, if it is, I will try again
 

hester

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dobro, hope this does not mean ye have given up divining for us common folk. lots of work here on the board for that, and your readings have been missed.

Me, if I ever try to get a stock exchange tip, the Yi boots me with a wild goose chase. hahaa.

I wonder that any nation should be run without Oracles? Oracles determine the course of the nation.

It points to the way, spiritual for sure, but, question, i also wonder what people here have done when their way is not the way of the Yi. to go deliberately into danger, for instance. the case of 29 6, and go ahead and go there, and loose the way.

?

has anyone here done that?
 

matt

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Many times Hester, making mistakes are a great way to learn, and its often in the 'danger' that we find ourselves.
 

frank

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Some years back there was a certain TV show back here in the Netherlands, about beauty and comphort. A battery on people who where known for there work, that had a variety of antropology through psycology, math, nature, science, poetry, music, you name it, did receive the same question: ?What to you is the beauty of comphort??Some years ago also I answered myself that question through a particular column on a dutch I Ching board, called `The Beauty and Comphort in the I Ching?...

As I grow up I found out not much people could answer my questions, and reading the language of the Yi in the first place gave me at least some of that. When I feel depressed, the Yi turns up with hexagram 14... When I feel angry, he comes up with 52... when I feel nervous, 11 shows up... Even when I asked him about the trip my granddad was taking when he died, the Yi gave me 20, towards 31... Grandpa was going to the West, the direction of the Himalaya, where, acording to chinese folklore the dead lay there heads down in peace and start fishing (31 is a lake upon a mountian, 20 is mountains, as doubled trigram mountian...). Nowadays I feel said of lovesickness again... and the Yi is AGAIN comming up with 14... , even 20... and recently 46, lines 4,5,6... there?s a standstill alright, but a beautifull one (can you see what I mean?)... As long as my head tumbles and a certain system like the Yi is trying to make me feel a bit OK, I do not even care if it was a childrens? book! I do not believe in a God, who is so damn mighty that he even can+t control us anymore with all our so called sophisticated technology so that at least we can blow up the whole planet in 1 second... Please... 5 minutes is long enough, and 1 bomb will do, thank you... I do believe in a deep soul within me, who is there for me from time to time, and hugges me when I need it, and is hard to find most of the days... but he is there, I know he is. I also believe that in one very bizare way a bunch of auteurs have discovered a thing shaped by yang and yin lines, even before these tittles where known, trying to catch what they saw by words who are still far away to comprehend... But they give me comphort... And a lot of pain from time to time... They also let me meet a lot of new people who I never would have met without this thing... There are a lot of people I wished I never did, because of this thing :-D! There is a rare bunch out there... But they are who they are, and so is the Yi... It is as it is... no science can grab it, no one realy can say if it?s only a book of wisdom, a book of oracles, or just a bunch of crap... (well, at least it?s a most wonderfull bunch...)

AND I LOVE EVERY VIBE OF IT.

Hug to you, Yi!
Frank
 

dobro p

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Hi Hester

"dobro, hope this does not mean ye have given up divining for us common folk."

I don't divine, I give fairly mechanical interpretations based on my understanding of the meaning of the lines.

"I wonder that any nation should be run without Oracles? Oracles determine the course of the nation."

I think that it isn't oracles that determine the course of the nation; I think it's a combination of the momentum that's built into the situation and the choices we make. God and man, in other words. Mostly God. But our decisions count. The oracle just makes the situation that we're dealing with a bit clearer, so that we can make our decisions a bit more intelligently. Sometimes.

"...i also wonder what people here have done when their way is not the way of the Yi. to go deliberately into danger, for instance. the case of 29 6, and go ahead and go there, and loose the way."

Yeah, of course you can do that. Like I said, you have the power of choice, and you make your own decisions. The Yi doesn't do it for you. It just gives you something useful to consider while you're making up your mind about what you're going to do.
 
B

bruce

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I?m with Matt on this one.

Following sound advise is wise. But depending on Yi to direct your every move and determine your rights and wrongs is terribly dangerous. The Yi doesn?t exist to make our decisions for us, or to pat us on the back when we?re good boys and girls, or slap us down when we?ve been naughty. It does, however, point to our own blueprint, and teaches how to follow our own core nature.

Spiritually, I view life as two paths. One path is the blueprint of our potential, and its destiny is unmovable, as a star in the heavens can not be moved through its own will. The second path is of our own will and choices. These two paths weave back and forth, crossing over each other at predetermined crossroads in our lives, as snakes climbing a staff. One snake representing subtle nature, and one representing gross nature. Subtle nature is the one Yi speaks from and to, and gross nature is the one which reacts in accord with ego-self.

To live in a dualistic environment, both natures must live. The ventures we take that go off the central staff or mean is a critical part of our growth, even or especially if that leads to troubles and pitfalls, because that is how we learn experientially. We are, as it were, to live as guests of the King, not as subjects under the iron fist of Yi or God. Unquestioning obedience, as I sometimes witness here and elsewhere, can not accomplish anything lasting or worth while. The prodigal?s son won the favor of his father, and a fatted calf filled his belly, while the so-called good son ate crow. The key is to return when it is time to return.
 

matt

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Yes Bruce, one of the problems with a blind devotion towards a faith - like using the Yi to determine every course of action - is that is seems to take away so much spirit within us. I mean it can place too much emphasis on being 'serious', we can alsmost become mechanical and resricted in our approach. Where is the versatility of spirit if we are to deny ourselves wrong course of action, or wrong paths or 'bad' energy? Denying parts of our nature can eliminate so much of the magic in life.
Humour. Laughing and smiling are great abilities, great healers, great teachers. Humour is the vitality that keeps hope alive, it can be the catalyst for the inspirational, and Im sure if Yi were ever to take human form (be quite a guy/girl to know!!) then he/she would be the most amazingly funny person to know!
 
B

bruce

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Matt,

Your last post reminded me of the movie ?Saved!?; a satirical look at the Christian youth culture. Funny movie.

I don?t remember Nietzsche?s exact words (maybe Brad will?), but something like: Be careful when casting your demons, that you don?t lose what is most important to you.

Imo, it is less important to be nice or right than it is to be real.
 

hester

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Hi Dobro:

"I think that it isn't oracles that determine the course of the nation; I think it's a combination of the momentum that's built into the situation and the choices we make. God and man, in other words. Mostly God. But our decisions count."

You must live in Canada.

Hi Matt:

"Many times Hester, making mistakes are a great way to learn, and its often in the 'danger' that we find ourselves."

Ummm. The Yi has helped me understand things I could never about my teachings, because the teachings are simply beyond the scope of my culture or conditioning. It's a double edged sword using the Yi, and when I saw that clump of bushes coming again, oh god no. Not again. A lady here says "misfortune is not the will of heaven", and I concur, but I've started to think there is something wiser than the will of heaven, dont ask me what, because it goes to heaven hell and outside of it all.

Matt, I love your posts.

Bruce, hmmmm, I love the image of the two natures. Do you sometimes have dreams that make you think of this? About the destiny?

I dont have blind devotion, it is challenged at every step by my ego, which, I found, last night, is the thing I love most in the world. "Fight for your right to party" is the game of the ego. What can you do.
 

hester

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Oh, and this is a commercial break for Frank: You Are Just The Sweetest Thing.
 

hester

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Oh, and dear Peace;

"I agree with the I Ching being a spiritual guide first.

For me, if I followed it spiritually - I wouldn't need to ask so many questions."

but god is in the details, does it not help you in the small petty details of your life? Which are of concern to all the compassionate beings?
 

matt

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I havent seen that movie Bruce, sounds good!

There is something that doesnt 'sit right' with me when spirtual circles say 'the death of the go shall bring us enlightenment'. The ego is not something to be discarded! Its an essential part of our expression, its something to be accepted. The dilemma for many is when they try to grow as people, become more 'spirtual', then there is always the process of letting parts of ourselves go, eliminating doubt, or the lower sides of our nature. Well, energy never dissapears, it can't, its impossible, but energy can transform from one state to another. Lets say there is an arrogant businessman who has a wicked sharp sense of human, hes very cynical in his witty retorts. If this man were to have a sudden realisation that he would need to become a 'better person', then it doesnt mean this cynical humour has to die with his ego - it just means he can be just as witty in a different way.

I've made that mistake before, I'm glad I did. When I was 18, I constantly joked with life, making people laugh. I took it so far, that my friends started becoming frustrated with me, sometimes I would have them in uncontrollable giggles, but sometimes I would continue the joking when a more serious tone was needed, I didnt know where to draw the line.
When I became more interested in self-growth, I read so many books about 'letting go of the ego', and for a few years my humour was tucked away deep down inside of me, I refused it expression. My freinds would comment on me being a 'kind and deep person', but their comments about 'where has your humour gone?', were disconcerting to me.

It wasnt until a few years after, that I decided the books were wrong, that EVERY PART OF US has its place. It was hard re-integrating the witty side of myself after so many years laid dormant, but then I found the most amazing thing - this joyous demanour I possessed wasnt there just to make other laugh, it was to make me laugh also. I started enjoying myself, my humour infused more inspiration in everything I did. I surprised myself. Thats the beauty of humour, its a spontaneous act, it can connect you with the moment more.
Every part of ourselves - the anger, the hate, the frustrations, the rudeness, the hyprocrisy, the judgemental - all these elements are normally associated with 'ego', but they are just parts of ourselves that need more understanding. Its not banishment from the city walls they need, its a welcome and a warm place to stay. Then the transofrmation begins.
Pain is a sensation normally associated with loss in some form. Pain is just the souls way to say 'hey, how about some focus here, you keep ignoring me'. Pains purpose is not to hurt us, just to help us identify the areas of ourselves that we dont smile upon or joke with.
 
B

bruce

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Matt, we have much in common. I appreciate your story.

Harmen, dreams have always played a key role in my spirit life. The two paths idea is a fairly young concept to me, and is a sort of Frankenreligion, inspired from Hinduism, Buddhism, Jesusism, Mythism, Jungism, Yiism and Shamanism. But more than these things, it just makes the most sense to me, and it 'sits properly' in my gut.
 

matt

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Hester, sorry I missed your last post,

"I dont have blind devotion, it is challenged at every step by my ego, which, I found, last night, is the thing I love most in the world."

I think we are all lucky to be part of a community here of open-minded individuals


Bruce, a little off-topic here, but where has LiSe got to?
 

heylise

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"Pains purpose is not to hurt us, just to help us identify the areas of ourselves that we dont smile upon or joke with."

That was my biggest surprise ever - about myself - that I would actually appreciate the pain or worry or even shame, which was so hard to bear. Without it, I would have missed the most beautiful part of life. Deep inside, supporting all the rest.

Bruce' image of the two paths, which must integrate, is very clarifying. I love spirit, I love ego, I love them together. Moving closer.. wandering away.. and coming back again. Take them apart, and both are without real value.

LiSe
 

matt

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hehe I guess theres my answer. Welcome back LiSe
 

heylise

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Hi Matt, me here.
Just been a bit busy lately - and still am.
But I try to read all of it. Love your posts a lot!

LiSe
 

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