Yi Jing in Dao De Jing

[lienshan]

Yarrowstalk divination is mentioned in the Mawangdui B Dao De Jing chapter 25:

you3 wu4 kun2 cheng2
there-is matter descendant completed
xian1 tian1 di4
preceeding heaven and earth
sheng1 xiao1 he1
born desolate HO-HO
liao2 he1
deserted HO-HO
du2 li4 er2 bu4 gai3 ke3
only established and not modified admissible
yi3 wei2 tian1 di4 mu3
because striving heaven's and earth's mother
wu2 wei4 zhi1 qi2 ming2 ye3
we not-yet know her name (pause)
zi4 zhi1 yue1 dao4
character go-to pronouncement Dao
wu2 qiang2 wei2 zhi1 ming2 yue1 da4
we determined strive go-to name pronounced great
da4 yue1 shi4
great is-pronounced yarrowstalk-divination
shi4 yue1 yuan3
yarrowstalk-divination is-pronounced profound
yuan3 yue1 fan3
profound is-pronounced reversed
dao4 da4 tian1 da4 di4 da4 wang2 yi4 da4
Dao great heaven great earth great king also great
guo2 zhong1 you3 si4 da4
nation in-the-middle have four great
er2 wang2 ju1 yi1
and king resides one
yan1
where?
ren2 fa3 di4
man standard earth
di4 fa3 tian1
earth standard heaven
tian1 fa3 dao4
heaven standard Dao
dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2
Dao standard self so

shi4 : http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?dss=1&wdqchi=筮&wdqchim=3&wdrst=0

lienshan

 

[lienshan]

I've made my translation more easy to understand:

there's something descending closed before heaven and earth
born desolate HO-HO
deserted HO-HO
only established and not modified admissible

because acting mother of heaven and earth
we do not yet know her name
the pronouncement of the word is Dao

our striving acting go to names pronounced great
great is pronounced yarrowstalkdivination
yarrowstalkdivination is pronounced profound
profound is pronounced inverted

Dao and great heaven and great earth and great king are also great
there are within nations four great and kings reside in one
where?

man promulgating earthly
earth promulgating heavenly
heaven promulgating Daoly
Dao promulgating naturally

Yarrowstalkdivination means the Zhouyi. That'll say the royal Zhou court divination manual, which the confucians made one of the five classics (Yi Jing/I Ching). That's why it's named "great" in the Mawangdui B Dao De Jing. The proof is the use of the in the context important word inverted. The hexagram order of the Zhouyi was the socalled King Wen order, where every second hexagram of a pair are inverted. The hexagrams of the Mawangdui B connected Yi Jing/I Ching version are on the contrary arranged in family order.

lienshan

 

[hilary]

Thank you! I had no idea that was in there.

I'm trying to make out what the writer's (/writers') take on divination really is. The DDJ rarely seems to be in favour of 'our striving acting', but here it just seems to be part of our human nature.

 

[lienshan]

I'm trying to make out what the writer's (/writers') take on divination really is.

The writer's pointe is, that the following last part of the chapter can be read both inverted and straight out, like the hexagrams of the "great yarrowstalkdivination" can be viewed both inverted and straight out.

The "inverted" reading:

Dao is great and heaven is great and earth is great and the king is also great
the nation in the middle (Zhou) has four great and the king resides in one
where?
man regulates earth
earth regulates heaven
heaven regulates Dao
Dao regulates its own nature

The "straight out" reading:

Dao and great heaven and great earth and great king(s) are also great
there are within nation(s) four great and king(s) reside(s) in one
where?
man is regulated by earth
earth is regulated by heaven
heaven is regulated by Dao
Dao is regulated by its own nature

The writer's take on the "great yarrowstalkdivination" is therefore in my opinion neutral. What's interesting to me is, that the Mawangdui Dao De Jing chapter 25 versions indirectly confirm, that the Zhouyi was already made a confucian classic before 195 BCE, the latest year when the Mawangdui A version could have be copied according to the use of the character bang, which became a taboo word after the first Han Emperor Liu Bang died in 195 BCE.

I'm trying to make out whether the text copied was written before or after the end of Zhou state in 256 BCE?

lienshan

 

[charly]

The writer's pointe is, that the following last part of the chapter can be read both inverted and straight out, like the hexagrams of the "great yarrowstalkdivination" can be viewed both inverted and straight out.
...
The writer's take on the "great yarrowstalkdivination" is therefore in my opinion neutral....

Lienshan:

I believe that the last part can be read as two hexagrams, given the fact that the two last characters (自然 zì rán) can be read as a single word meaning «its-own» or «nature», something that exist by its own right.

1st. hex. «People law is Earth, Earth law is Heaven» (writen from base to top as an hexagram):

xxxxxxxxx Heaven, yang
xxxxxxxxx Law, yang
xxx .. xxx Earth, yin
xxx .. xxx Earth, yin
xxxxxxxxx Law, yang
xxxxxxxxx People, yang

2nd. hex. «Heaven law is Truth (Dao), Truth law is its-own» (writen from base to top as an hexagram):

xxxxxxxxx its own, yang (→ People)
xxxxxxxxx Law, yang
xxx .. xxx Truth, yin (Dao is said to be the MOTHER of heaven and earth)
xxx .. xxx Truth, yin
xxxxxxxxx Law, yang
xxxxxxxxx Heaven, yang

Both ends of the chain are equivalent, People = its-own, the second hex. is the reversal of the first.

I have the feeling that the take on the yarow divination is that even kings have some higher instance to whom report, remember the possibility of loosing the madate of heaven, Zhou kings used the yarrow to consult this higher instance.

At last all we are deciding for ourselves, under our own responsibility. People decide adviced by the own inner demon, all connected but all free in the own place of the chain.

Kong Zi, Meng Zi, first steps on the sence of democracy.

I'm not sure if I have an accurate text of MWD B chapter 25.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Thank you! I had no idea that was in there.

I'm trying to make out what the writer's (/writers') take on divination really is. The DDJ rarely seems to be in favour of 'our striving acting', but here it just seems to be part of our human nature.

Hilary:

Although I'm not an expert on DDJ I have a slighly different version of Ch.25 MWD-B, maybe not much more understandable:

Recitative:

you3 wu4 kun2 cheng2
there is / thing / elder brother / accomplish

THERE IS SOMETHING ELDER BROTHER COMPLIANT

xian1 tian1 di4 sheng1
before / heaven / earth / born

BEFORE HEAVEN AND EARTH BORN
​

Chorus:

xiao1 he1 liao2 he1
mornful / oh! / ... / oh!

DAMN! Twice DAMN!
​

Recitative:

du2 li4 er2 bu4 gai3 ke3
alone / stand / but, and / not / change / able

STANDING ALONE AND NOT CHANGEABLE

yi3 wei2 tian1 di4 mu3
so / acting as / heaven / earth / mother

SO ACTING AS MOTHER of HEAVEN and EARTH
​

Chorus:

wu2 wei4 zhi1 qi2 ming2 ye3
I / still not / its / name / also

I STILL DON'T KNOW ITS NAME, NEITHER!
​

Recitative:

zi4 zhi1 yue1 dao4
sign / 's / say / way

iTS SIGN IS SAID «WAY» (=DAO)
​

Chorus:

wu2 qiang2 wei2 zhi1 ming2 yue1 da4
I / effort / action / 's / name / say / big

If I make an EFFORT, the NAME OF its ACTION is SAID «BIG»
​

Recitative:

da4 yue1 shi4
big / say / stalk (=yarrow stalk Zhou divination)

BIG IS SAID «STALK»

shi4 yue1 yuan3
stalk / say / profound

STALK IS SAID «DEEP»

yuan3 yue1 fan3
profound / say / reverse

DEEP IS SAID «REVOLVE»
​

Chorus:

dao4 da4 tian1 da4 di4 da4 wang2 yi4 da4
way / big / heven / big / earth / big / king / also / big

The WAY is BIG, the HEAVEN is BIG, EVEN the KINGS are BIG.

guo2 zhong1 you3 si4 da4
country, kingdom / middle / have / four / big

MIDDLE COUNTRY HAS FOUR BIG regions (1)

er2 wang2 ju1 yi1 yan1
but / king / reside / one / where

BUT only ONE is WHERE the KING RESIDES
​

Recitative:

ren2 fa3 di4
men, people / law / earth

PEOLE's LAW is EARTH

di4 fa3 tian1
earth / law / heaven

EARTH's LAW is HEAVEN

tian1 fa3 dao4
heaven / law / way

HEAVEN's LAW is WAY (=DAO)

dao4 fa3 zi4 ran2
way / law / nature, its own

WAY's LAW is ITS OWN

​

Say, Kings pass, oracles and people remain.

All things can be seen under at least two lights, can be read in at least two directions, all image can be seen reversed.

Yours,

Charly

__________________
(1)

The phrase "The nation includes actually four greats, and the kings reside in the One" only makes sense after 206 BCE, when the rebel Xiang Yu divided the former state of Chu into four kingdoms: West-Chu, Linjiang, Juijiang and Hengshan.
From: http://www.mandala.dk/view-post-comments.php4?blogID=2892&postID=7570

 

[charly]

This is chapter 25 in MWD B:

有物昆成先天地生蕭呵漻呵獨立而不改可以為天地母吾未知亓名也字之曰道吾強為之名曰大大曰筮筮曰遠遠曰反道大天大地大王亦大國中有四大而王居一焉人法地地法天天法道道法自然

I'm not too sure of the accuracy, but maybe good enough for a first approach.

有 [you3] / to have / there is / there are / to exist /
物 [wu4] / thing / object / matter /
昆 [kun1] / descendant / elder brother /
成 [cheng2] / finish / complete / accomplish / become /
先 [xian1] / early / prior / former / first /
天 [tian1] / day / sky / heaven /
地 [di4] / earth / ground /
生 [sheng1] / to be born / to give birth / life / to grow /

蕭 [xiao1] / mournful /
呵 [a1] / oh! /
漻 [liao2 / deep and clear / to miss something /
呵 [a1] / oh! /

獨 [du2] / alone / independent / single / sole / only /
立 [li4] / set up / to stand /
而 [er2] / and / as well as / but (not) / yet (not) /
不 [bu4] / (negative prefix) / not / no /
改 [gai3] / to change / to alter / to transform / to correct /
可 [ke3] / can / may / able to /

以 [yi3] / to use / according to / so as to / in order to / by / with / because /
為 [wei2] / act as / take...to be / to be / to do / to serve as / to become /
天 [tian1] / day / sky / heaven /
地 [di4] / earth / ground /
母 [mu3] / female / mother /

吾 [wu2] / I / my /
未 [wei4] / not yet / did not / have not / not /
知 [zhi1] / to know / to be aware /
亓 [qi2] / his / her / its / their /
名 [ming2] / name /
也 [ye3] /also/too/

字 [zi4] / letter / symbol / character / word /
之 [zhi1] / 's / him / her / it /
曰 [yue1] / to speak / to say /
道 [dao4] / direction / way / method / road / path / principle / truth / reason /

吾 [wu2] / I / my /
強 [qiang2] / strength / force / power / powerful / better /
為 [wei2] / act as / take...to be / to be / to do / to serve as / to become /
之 [zhi1] / 's / him / her / it /
名 [ming2] / name /
曰 [yue1] / to speak / to say /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /

大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /
曰 [yue1] / to speak / to say /
筮 [shi4] / divine by stalk / divination stick /

筮 [shi4] / divine by stalk / divination stick /
曰 [yue1] / to speak / to say /
遠 [yuan3] / far / distant / remote / profound / deep / foresight ? /

遠 [yuan3] / far / distant / remote / profound / deep /
曰 [yue1] / to speak / to say /
反 [fan3] / wrong side out or up / reverse /

道 [dao4] / direction / way / method / road / path / principle / truth / reason /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /
天 [tian1] / day / sky / heaven /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great / wide / deep / oldest / eldest /
地 [di4] / earth / ground /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /

王 [wang2] / king /
亦 [yi4] / also /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /

國 [guo2] / country / state / nation /
中 [zhong1] / within / among / in / middle / center /
有 [you3] / to have / there is / there are /
四 [si4] / four / 4 /
大 [da4] / big / huge / large / major / great /
而 [er2] / and / as well as / but (not) / yet (not) /
王 [wang2] / king /3
居 [ju1] / reside /
一 [yi1] / one / 1 / single /
焉 [yan1] / where / how /

人 [ren2] / man / person / people /
法 [fa3] / law / method / way / Buddhist teaching / Legalist /
地 [di4] / earth / ground /

地 [di4] / earth / ground /
法 [fa3] / law / method / way / Buddhist teaching / Legalist /
天 [tian1] / day / sky / heaven /

天 [tian1] / day / sky / heaven /
法 [fa3] / law / method / way / Buddhist teaching / Legalist /
道 [dao4] / direction / way / method / road / path / principle / truth / reason /

道 [dao4] / direction / way / method / road / path / principle / truth / reason /
法 [fa3] / law / method / way / Buddhist teaching / Legalist /
自然 [zi4 ran2] nature / natural law / by oneself / by its own /

I wonder what's the reason why some translations fron MWD B that I have read in spanish (one by Iñaki Preciado Idoeta, a translation from chinese to spanish and the other a spanish translation for the english by Thos.Cleary) do not translate 筮 [shi4] as yarrow stalk divination althoug the first gives a print of the chinese text MWD B with variants between brackets.

And what about the YI?

• great
• far
• profound, deep
• to foresight

also maybe reversable, uncertain, even wrong!

I believe not neutral.

Yours,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

Hola Charly,

I wonder what's the reason why some translations fron MWD B that I have read in spanish (Preciado and Cleay) do not translate 筮 [shi4] as yarrow stalk divination althoug the first gives a print of the chinese text MWD B with variants between brackets.

Tenés detalles del libro de Preciado y Cleay (isbn nbr, etc)? Me interesa el dato y no lo tengo.

Gracias y un abrazo,

 

[charly]

Hola Charly,



Tenés detalles del libro de Preciado y Cleay (isbn nbr, etc)? Me interesa el dato y no lo tengo.

Gracias y un abrazo,

Luis:

Sobre la versión de Ignacio Preciado Idoeta, tengo un ejemplar en castellano con el texto chino, basado justamente en MWD B, me voy a fijar, no sé si es la misma versión Preciado que se encuentra en la web, mientras tanto:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iñaki_Preciado_Idoeta

La otra es la versión de Thomas Cleary, que en general no me gusta, pero no la tengo más.

Abrazo,

Charly

 

[lienshan]

Hi Charly

I've been studying how the exavacated Dao De Jing text were broken into sentences. All the Mawangdui B chapters seem to have been structured like the King Wen hexagram pairs; mirroring from the middle of the chapter text:

有物昆成
先天地
生蕭呵
漻呵獨立
而不改可
以為天地
母吾未知亓名也字之曰道吾強
為之名
曰大
大
曰筮
筮曰遠
遠曰反道大天大地大王亦大國
中有四大
而王居一
焉人法地
地法天
天法道
道法自然

The keyword of the chapter 25 is 反 [fan3] to reverse. This means, that the four preceeding 大 [da4]
of the sentence are written reversed in the sequence and therefore must be read following:

遠曰反道天大地大王大亦國大

Here are my picks and some extra definitions to your vocabulary:

有 [you3] to exist
物 [wu4] matter
昆 [kun1] descendant
成 [cheng2] complete

先 [xian1] prior
天 [tian1] heaven
地 [di4] earth

生 [sheng1] life
蕭 [xiao1] mournful
呵 [a1] oh!

漻 [liao2 to miss something
呵 [a1] oh!
獨 [du2] alone
立 [li4] to stand

而 [er2] yet (not)
不 [bu4] not
改 [gai3] to change
可 [ke3] / can / is the philosophical character: admissible

以 [yi3] because
為 [wei2] to do
天 [tian1] heaven
地 [di4] earth

母 [mu3] mother
吾 [wu2] / I / in this context the character means: to resist
未 [wei4] not yet
知 [zhi1] to know
亓 [qi2] its
名 [ming2] name
也 [ye3] /also/was used as a pause character in the Guodian Laozi
字 [zi4] character
之 [zhi1] / 's / is often best understood when translated: go to
曰 [yue1] /to speak/ but in the context: pronouncement
道 [dao4] / way / a translation that everyone understand is: Dao
吾 [wu2] / I / in this context the character means: to resist
強 [qiang2] powerful

為 [wei2] to do
之 [zhi1] / 's / is often best understood when translated: go to
名 [ming2] name

曰 [yue1] /to speak/ but in the context: pronouncement
大 [da4] great

大 [da4] great

曰 [yue1] /to speak/ but in the context: pronouncement
筮 [shi4] divine by stalk

筮 [shi4] divine by stalk
曰 [yue1] /to speak/ but in the context: pronouncement
遠 [yuan3] profound

遠 [yuan3] profound
曰 [yue1] /to speak/ but in the context: pronouncement
反 [fan3] reverse
道 [dao4] / way / a translation that everyone understand is: Dao
天 [tian1] heaven
大 [da4] great
地 [di4] earth
大 [da4] great
王 [wang2] king
大 [da4] great
亦 [yi4] also
國 [guo2] nation
大 [da4] great

中 [zhong1] within
有 [you3] to exist
四 [si4] four
大 [da4] great

而 [er2] yet (not)
王 [wang2] king
居 [ju1] reside
一 [yi1] one

焉 [yan1] where
人 [ren2] man
法 [fa3] law
地 [di4] earth

地 [di4] earth
法 [fa3] law
天 [tian1] heaven

天 [tian1] heaven
法 [fa3] law
道 [dao4] / way / a translation that everyone understand is: Dao

道 [dao4] / way / a translation that everyone understand is: Dao
法 [fa3] law
自 [zi4] by its own
然 [ran2] nature

I think, that the Mawangdui B version was constructed 200 BCE, because some details of this version cannot have been written before the Qin dynasty 221-206 BCE and probably after the civil war 206-202 BCE. The specific use of the character 筮 yarrowstalk divination is probably related to the fact, that divination manuals were not banned and burned after 213 BCE, while Dao De Jing was.

But I still think, that the use of the character 筮 yarrowstalk divination is neutral. It's simply a better pick in the context than the original character kui4 overflowing, when the main purpose is to arrive at the character 反 to reverse, because the king Wen hexagram pairs are reversed.

The Mawangdui A version was written on silk together with the Mawangdui Yi Jing. Some details of the A version indicate, that the author of the A version knew the B version. The scholars believe, that the use of guo2 instead of bang1 in the B version is because its a "taboo-character", and use it as an argument for dating the A version before the B version. But another explanation could be, that the winning rebels were fighting the nobility-rebels, and bang1 means a "nobility-state". The not-reversed hexagram sequence of the Mawangdui Yi Jing might therefore be an invention made in the kingdom of Changsha 200-195 BCE?

lienshan