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Yi sends querent on wild goose chase to doctor? Why?

lanie

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Hi, I'm relatively new here with a puzzling situation that I've given up on making sense of myself.

Last Sunday morning (Nov. 30) I had a sore throat and possible swollen glands. I have fibromyalgia, and also my tonsils often get irritated without an actual illness being present, so it's sometimes hard for me to tell when I need the doctor. I asked Yi:

Q: Go to the CVS Minute Clinic today, with my sore throat and possible other symptoms? (CVS=drugstore chain)
A: 53 unchanging - "Gradual Progress."

Result: Not sure...to be safe, I went. Was diagnosed with a virus, which, of course, has to just run its course. Now I understood what Yi meant with 53, but beforehand I thought maybe Yi was saying "If you go to the Minute Clinic (which was, after all, my question), you will experience Gradual Progress." (The "Minute Clinic," by the way, was unusually busy according to the nurse and took 3 hours.) [Addendum: It just this second occurred to me maybe that's what Yi was describing with 53 unchanging; however, that's even LESS responsive to my question!]

When I got home, I asked the following very exasperated question:

Q: Why not give me 25.5 ("Use no medicine in an illness incurred through no fault of your own. It will pass of itself")? Even if I didn't understand that advice or follow it properly, there'd be no one to blame but myself and I wouldn't be exasperated with you!
A: 57 unchanging ("Penetrating")

Q: You mean I should have asked you follow-up questions?
A: 40.1.2.6 changing to 21 (Solve Problems through Being Tenacious?) Apparently so?

Q: What kind of follow-up questions could I have productively asked you? "What do you mean by 53 unchanging?" is the only (not very useful) one I can think of --- ??? [And again, the subtext would be, why not just give me 25.5 in the first place.]
A: 39.2.4 changing to 28 (Obstruction - Great Exceeding)

Huh? Here's where I'm stuck. Wilhelm-Baynes says:

39.2: The King's servant is beset by obstruction upon obstruction, But it is not his own fault.

39.4: Going leads to obstructions, Coming leads to union.

Was Yi purposely trying to "obstruct" me from the very beginning? Or, if Yi simply means I've hit a brick wall in trying to understand this situation and I should stop divining about it - okay, but then what about my original puzzlement, which still stands?

Thanks in advance for any help!
 
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willowfox

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Q: G
Should I go to the CVS Minute Clinic today, with my sore throat and possible other symptoms?

A: 53 unchanging

The hex suggests that you should not take any quick action such as running to the doctor, you should wait and see how things develop, it says to be patient and wait.


The rest of your questions are pointless because the IC did in fact give you the right answer.
 

Trojina

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Its my growing perception that alot of the time the Yi doesn't advise ...(I'm wondering if i can go as far as to say it never advises...don't think so). I think it tells you how things are, truly are, so you can see your best way to making a decision about it. Sometimes its just plainly predictive . I mean the most obvious sensible thing you could do was go to the CVS, its likley you would have done that regardless to be on the safe side...the Yi was just reflecting that with 53 perhaps and yes i think the long wait when you got there was 53.

Often people say they think the Yi is saying I should do this or that. But at least 75% of questions i see here just reveal a situation to someone, they go hunting down 'shoulds' all by themselves and miss the obvious half the time...er well in my humble opinion of course :D

Just seen Wfoxs post, yes that makes sense too. You had to wait for the thing to unfold in its own time.


Just noticed the pun 'wild goose chase' in the title of thread...53 very fitting lol
 

lanie

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I do see what you're both saying - that 53 unchanging was a reasonable answer to my question (as well as a humorous commentary on what would happen when I got there).

The problem, though, is that this was a better answer in hindsight than beforehand - and that this was at best a good answer that left more perfect answers unused, such as 25.5 which I mentioned (Use no medicine...It will pass of itself) as well as 60.1 (Not going out of the door and the courtyard is without blame.).

Since, based on a lot of past throat history, I was already open to the possibility that I did not need the doctor, either of those two other lines would have settled the matter much more clearly. I certainly can't guarantee that I would have obeyed such perfectly clear advice, but at least it would have BEEN perfectly clear advice: No doctor needed or useful. Stay home.

53 unchanging could have meant several different things, as we've already admitted to:

  1. Even if I'd really needed the doctor (say, for antibiotics), my recovery would still not have been instantaneous - hence my interpretation at the time, "If you go to the doctor, you will make Gradual Progress" (in recovery from illness.)

  2. It meant I'd have a long wait. Okay, in hindsight I can see that. Haha. Except that a long wait was not on my list of concerns - if I'd really needed the doctor, I'd have been willing (though not delighted, of course) to wait however long it took.

    Moreover, if my waiting time was really a higher priority for Yi than it was even for me :)rolleyes:), there's always hex 5, which not only is named "Waiting," but which Yi had used before with me to indicate that I should have been more willing to wait (at a car repair place).

  3. Yes, Hex 53 unchanging, Gradual Progress, is a perfect description of recovery from a virus. I can see that - in hindsight. But aren't we always taught, "When in doubt, check your question, to make sure you've asked a clear one"? And although my question was implicitly about recovery from illness, it was directly about "go/not go to the doctor." Could I have made the question better?
Most of my confusion and exasperation here is, Why did Yi give me a "decent" answer when even I can think of more perfect ones (and I can't usually do that, even in hindsight)?

Unless Yi was just messing with me - in which case, why? (I've asked Yi outrageous/silly questions, but I don't think this was one of them.)

And - does that ever happen to anyone else?

[Edit: Trojan, the pun was absolutely unintended! - I just now got it! Spooky...]
 
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Trojina

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Yes but the Yi is a beast of mystery, it can take time to 'get' an answer. Half the time I find it undercuts my question and referrs to issues underlying question, i don't always see this till later. As usual noone really can tell you why you got 53 today...its between you and Yi i guess. People can make suggestions thats all. Maybe 53 is telling you way more than you asked, perhaps its telling you nothing. Sometimes I get the sense the Yi does not answer some questions for myself...
 

my_key

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Q: What kind of follow-up questions could I have productively asked you? "What do you mean by 53 unchanging?" is the only (not very useful) one I can think of --- ??? [And again, the subtext would be, why not just give me 25.5 in the first place.]
A: 39.2.4 changing to 28 (Obstruction - Great Exceeding)

Huh? Here's where I'm stuck. Wilhelm-Baynes says:

39.2: The King's servant is beset by obstruction upon obstruction, But it is not his own fault.

39.4: Going leads to obstructions, Coming leads to union.

Was Yi purposely trying to "obstruct" me from the very beginning? Or, if Yi simply means I've hit a brick wall in trying to understand this situation and I should stop divining about it - okay, but then what about my original puzzlement, which still stands?

Thanks in advance for any help!

39 - Wilhelm - "Difficulties and obstructions throw a man back upon himself. While the inferior man seeks to put the blame on other persons, bewailing his fate, the
superior man seeks the error within himself, and through this introspection
the external obstacle becomes for him an occasion for inner enrichment and
education."

39.2 - You are digging a big hole for yourself here and you can't see what you are doing. You have to go though this now but maybe you want to step back and look at what was really going on.

39.4 - You may not be able to understand what is going on on your own. You thought the answers would be good but they are frustrating you as they are not giving you what you hoped for.Take some advice and listen to it then you could be in a position of greater awareness as to what is going on.

28 - Slow down a bit, take a step back to see th bigger picture and things will slowly dawn on you as to what is going on and then yoe'll be able to step forward with renewed understanding. Onwards and upwards.


Take Care

Mike
 

lanie

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Okay, what everyone is saying about this makes sense - but in a "interpreting the I Ching in general" way. About this particular question, not so much (sorry...).

The reasons why I thought this specific situation makes a good "poster child" for reading-exasperation are:

  • I genuinely feel led down a primrose path (albeit with no actual harm done!)

  • And I can't fathom why, since the original question was simple, straightforward, non-controversial, non-"cosmic," and non-whiny.

  • I was willing to accept whatever answer I got, and act accordingly without argument. I did not have a pre-conceived answer I "wanted." Granted, I was not thrilled at the prospect of going to the doctor on a Sunday morning, but if I was sick so be it. (And, this attitude is based on an actual history of sore throats that sometimes do, and sometimes do NOT, require a doctor. For perfectly good reasons, both ways.)

  • The answer - either way - would have made enough of a difference in my life that I don't consider the question frivolous.

  • I know how it turned out, and I knew it as soon as I'd seen the doctor (nurse-practitioner, to be precise), and there's no ambiguity about the results. This makes it easier to evaluate the original reading.

  • I can easily think of those aforementioned "more perfect and very clear" answers. They're pretty obvious, even to me!

  • As far as I know, almost a week later, there is no "hidden" reason why trekking to CVS was serendipitously meaningful to my life or anyone else's. Nothing unusual happened, good or bad. Actually, given how busy they were, it would have been to everyone else's benefit if I'd stayed home.
Maybe the simple explanation is that Yi can do what it wants, when and how it wants, at whim, with no obligation to make ANY sense. As trojan said, it's a "beast of mystery."

However, that begs the question, what then? If it so often is NOT a "random whim" oracle - but it CAN be? :confused:

One other thing, somewhat tongue-in-cheek but somewhat not: Has anyone ever heard of there being people whose particular "fate" it is to randomly get their head fooled with by oracles? I mentioned astrology in maremaria's thread, but I don't know enough about it to pick something like that out of my chart if it exists.
 
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bamboo

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The Yi most defitely did not send you on a wild goose chase, but it really is funny that you used that title without realizing it!
NO WAY I wouldve taken the answer to say YES, go! I wouldve felt okay, wait a minute, lets see how this develops, just like WF said. there was nothing dire about 53, it very plainly says that this thing is going to develop in its own time (and probably resolve in its own time too), a pretty perfect description of a virus. In any case, I wouldve felt that 53 says you have time, no need to rush off and take what will/did turn out to be a wild goose chase.

25.5 is not as appropriate because there is an illness.

57 is the Yi saying: "I expected you to use more intuition, listen closely"

40> 21 says yeah, some followup questions wouldve confirmed the original. 40.6 says That you got a perfect response, you didnt bite through to the end.

and 39 > 28.....Very kindly, you are told that you were obstructed by your own ability to see the 53 for what it was. and rushing ahead to take action 'just in case" was not as wise as taking the "wait and see" approach. Going was not as favored as waiting back, and it gave you additional stress to make the trip.

specifically, the 39 lesson is that if a response is not understood, but not dire either, then accept your block for awhile, and try to find the wisdom in the answer.:)
 

lanie

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rebamboo, thank you for your thoughtful point-by-point answer. But...

...I still differ with you, that 53 unchanging is NOT as good an answer to the question as 25.5 would have been.

53 unchanging was a decent, passable, defensible answer (in hindsight), as you're pointing out. Which is exactly why I'm exasperated: Yi gave an answer that is DEFENSIBLE - it's just that there were better, more accurate, more-specific-to-the-question, more-useful-to-the-decision, answers.

Such as (I still think) 25.5, which says (emphasis mine, and this is the Wilhelm-Baynes translation):

Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself.


It does acknowledge an illness, and IMO is a much more literal description of how to treat a virus than 53 unchanging. The "incurred through no fault of your own" part is pretty much unimportant to this , but the rest of it is absolutely spot-on.

For sake of argument, since my question was - even more literally - "Go/no go to the doctor?" - why do you think Yi didn't give me 60.1?

Not going out of the door and the courtyard
Is without blame.
 
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willowfox

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Go back to the original question, "Should I go to the clinic/doctor?"

Answer 53, No, just wait and see how things develop.
 
D

diamanda

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I'll agree with all others who said 53 = gradual development, ie the whole
thing will have to take its course. Nevertheless: "good fortune". It speaks
of something which needs to develop, but nothing serious, as it will end
well. "The various formalities must be disposed of". So, if you felt you
had to visit the doctor, then so be it. 53 is favourable no matter what -
if you hadn't gone, it would be fine. You went, and still everything is fine
(at least it gave you peace of mind).

I just loved your little chat with the I Ching!

Why not give me a 25:5? 57
Either because you should have asked more questions, as you and others
said, and/or because you really wanted and needed to penetrate and know
what was going on for sure. Also, "It furthers one to see the great man",
"subordinating itself to an eminent man who is capable of creating order".
It would be fine if you hadn't gone, and it's just as fine that you went.

You mean I should have asked you follow-up questions? 40:1.2.6> 21
40:1 says "without blame". There were cunning foxes (doubts?) and a big
baddie up at the top (40:6), so perhaps you had too many bad thoughts
about the whole thing, and it must have been really niggling away at you.
53 does say things are fine, and will be fine, but still there's no blame if
you wanted to check something out with an expert (doctor). And so you
took energetic measures (21), and so what? All is still fine, and there's
no blame.

What kind of follow-up questions could I have asked you? 39:2.4>28
It all sounds like "leave it", "you've got no fault here", turn back, don't
let this burden you. Come back from this way of thinking, make a move
back, this only leads to unnecessary burden.

Wishing you a swift recovery!
 
D

diamanda

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Just saw your new post.

Think of this - if the yi had said 25:5, with a resulting 21....
"bite through", take energetic measures, justice.... what would you
have thought of that? It would have equally perplexed you and worried
you even more.

Or let's say a 60:1. The resulting hexagram would have been a 29,
danger. You'd have been equally alarmed.

53 is mild, it only has good fortune, and no threat whatsoever.
Perhaps the yi knew already how worried you are, and this is why it
gave such a 'mild' answer, to reassure you. Even 53 didn't really
reassure you - but i bet most people would have done exactly the
same as you - if you can go to the doctor to ask, then why not?
You did the right thing, and i think 53 is a great answer in this
case - OK-ing anything, and reassuring that any steps will lead to
good fortune.
 

discordia

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rebamboo, thank you for your thoughtful point-by-point answer. But...

...I still differ with you, that 53 unchanging is NOT as good an answer to the question as 25.5 would have been.

53 unchanging was a decent, passable, defensible answer (in hindsight), as you're pointing out. Which is exactly why I'm exasperated: Yi gave an answer that is DEFENSIBLE - it's just that there were better, more accurate, more-specific-to-the-question, more-useful-to-the-decision, answers.


The question was, "Should I go to to CVS for my sore throat today?" [paraphrasing, bolding mine].

53: "...The development must be allowed to take its proper course. Hasty action
would not be wise
..."


I think 53 addressed the question you asked just fine.


Such as (I still think) 25.5, which says (emphasis mine, and this is the Wilhelm-Baynes translation):

Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself.


True enough, but the question you asked didn't address medication at all.
Also, keep in mind the entire question you asked, all of a piece.
Step back and have a look at all of the words you used in your original question.


It does acknowledge an illness, and IMO is a much more literal description of how to treat a virus than 53 unchanging. The "incurred through no fault of your own" part is pretty much unimportant to this , but the rest of it is absolutely spot-on.

For sake of argument, since my question was - even more literally - "Go/no go to the doctor?" - why do you think Yi didn't give me 60.1?

Not going out of the door and the courtyard
Is without blame.


Remember that in your question, you used to word "today". That implies a sense of urgency, at least in my mind it does.

**********

Poor Yi!
::*holds Yi in my arms protectively*::
Yi, I know you tried your best to address the actual words in this question!

There, there!
::*pets Yi*::

**********


Maybe a bit of penetrating into the nature (and wording) of the questions themselves is in order.
Seems to be what you are wondering about, and perhaps what the IC in your follow-up questions is attempting to address.


Good luck.
 

lanie

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diamanda: You're absolutely right that there was no harm either way, whether I did or did not go to the doctor (harm or lack thereof was never the reason I posted this - it's the exasperation of a wild-goose chase (haha), and the fact it seemed a great example, precisely because it was non-threatening, clear-cut, and DONE WITH.)

You mentioned the hex 40 lines. In 40.2 for example, I was noticing more the catching of foxes if I would have asked follow-up questions and disregarding the fact that foxes are cunning, which you pointed out. Similarly with 40.6 - I saw it as "asking follow-up questions = shooting the hawk" without attention to the hawk being a "big baddie" as you say.

About needing the peace of mind from going to the doctor: It's certainly not a horrible thing. I didn't think I needed it, simply because having a sore throat and general achiness, with no actual illness being present, is NOT at all unusual for me (my throat is irritable, blast it, and my tonsils like to collect junk in them, and there's nothing doctors can do about all that. If Yi had said "Don't bother; stay home," I would not have been shocked; I would have just shrugged and thought, Okay, one of *those* sore throats.)

BUT. If, as you alluded in your second post, Yi saw deeper into my psyche than I could, and detected a need for reassurance that I didn't know was there, and then gave me a reading he/she knew I would (mis?)interpret and therefore end up going erroneously to the clinic and receiving said reassurance - well, okay then. I'll accept that and thank Yi for it. After all, I can't know how nervous I might have been about it if I hadn't gone! (Maybe that goes along with the *cunning* foxes? Hmmm.)

Although, I have no idea how to apply such a concept in practice to interpreting future readings!

As far as the resulting hexagrams for the two readings I suggested as "better" answers (hex 21 from 25.5, and hex 29 from 60.1): You make a good point. I hadn't considered that very much. My knee-jerk reaction is that I would have seen the primary-hexagram lines as SO definitive that I would have stopped there and considered my question answered. Which HAS to be permissible in some contexts; after all, Yi is a bit hamstrung in its format. It CAN'T give us just 60.1 by itself EVEN IF all it means - for sure - is "Don't go out the door."

But then there's all that deep psyche-plumbing you refer to (which I cannot refute in this case.) I don't know what to do with that. There actually ARE readings that are completely accurate at superficial face value, aren't there? Otherwise we'd NEVER get readings we can actually use?

Thank you for a very thought-provoking reply, and I love my little chats with Yi, too! (most of the time)

discordia: My actual question, word for word, copied directly from the notebook I wrote it in, was: "Go to the CVS Minute Clinic today with my sore throat (and, possibly, other symptoms)?" (The other symptoms being MAYBE swollen glands - except that I have fibromyalgia, which mimics a LOT of things that aren't actually there or treatable. Which was why I did this reading in the first place - because some symptoms aren't reliable for me.)

I purposely didn't preface it with phrases like "Should I," because we are taught to make questions general and not of the yes/no variety. Although I often feel this is a distinction without a difference. To me, the question as you paraphrased it, vs. how I wrote it, are really the same thing. (I asked Yi once about this "distinction without a difference" thing, and the response I got was essentially "Follow the rules. This is how it's done." So I try to.)

You're right that I didn't use the word "medication" in my question, or even the word "treatment." A better question might have been "How likely is it that I need antibiotics for my sore throat?" or "What effect would [antibiotics/medical treatment] have on my sore throat?" which would have clearly covered the ONLY reason for me to take a sore throat to the doctor!

About the "today" part of my question: What you couldn't possibly have known (because I didn't mention it) is that I asked the question at 7:15am and the Minute Clinic doesn't open on Sundays until 10:00am. So the sense of urgency I conveyed with the word "today" was as accurate as it could have been in a question asked 3 hours ahead of time, and as accurate as I felt it (I didn't feel any urgency to go the emergency room that minute, but I also was not asking "Go to my regular doctor sometime tomorrow or the next day?". "Sometime today" - probably relatively sooner than later - was as much pressure as I was putting on myself! So, I think Yi could have told me "Don't go out the door" (60.1) and we'd have been on the same wavelength.

I'm sure Yi appreciates your cuddling, after my pummelling of him in this thread! (This is not at all the first time I've pummelled, I admit, though I do usually keep it between me and him :blush:)
 

rodaki

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hmm . . just a suggestion . .

I think by asking the Yi we open a door in our mind. We do it with a very specific, legible purpose, but our thoughts always carry lots of baggage we fail to understand ourselves. The answers I have gotten often work in many many levels, some of which I can see, others that take time. Sometimes we get not the most straightforward answer but the richest one because the door we open is not that of a counter but of a learning space . . and we might be send off in a wild goose chase because that will provide us with the most fruitful learning experience.
If the Yi gave the answer you would understand more readily, yes you would have saved time and some minor anxiety but you would have also missed to learn everything you did about hx53, and the rest of your answers
in this case (as in most of them) I can see Yi as a grandma: you ask her how much sugar she uses for the recipe to her cake and you get a whole evening of story-telling
last, perhaps if you were actually alarmed by your condition and in dire need of a straight answer, you would have gotten just that; but you can not order the kind of wind that will come through your open door :)

rodaki
 

Trojina

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rebamboo, thank you for your thoughtful point-by-point answer. But...

...I still differ with you, that 53 unchanging is NOT as good an answer to the question as 25.5 would have been.

53 unchanging was a decent, passable, defensible answer (in hindsight), as you're pointing out. Which is exactly why I'm exasperated: Yi gave an answer that is DEFENSIBLE - it's just that there were better, more accurate, more-specific-to-the-question, more-useful-to-the-decision, answers.

Such as (I still think) 25.5, which says (emphasis mine, and this is the Wilhelm-Baynes translation):

Use no medicine in an illness
Incurred through no fault of your own.
It will pass of itself.


It does acknowledge an illness, and IMO is a much more literal description of how to treat a virus than 53 unchanging. The "incurred through no fault of your own" part is pretty much unimportant to this , but the rest of it is absolutely spot-on.

.[/I]

With 25.5 'medicine' can mean all kinds of remedial or palliative action which can include resting up , taking your vitamins etc etc hence it would not necessarily have been that brilliant say no remedial care is needed..when it was. The virus may develop in its time and way, your recovery the same but meanwhile there would be things one does to help or hinder self. The most common scenario I've had 25.5 for is for disputes and upsets between friends, had that many times for those kinds of questions. So 25.5 is about not actively trying to put things right when theres nothing to be put right really ..cos theres nothing wrong, wrong as in sick, unhealthy, out of place etc etc The dispute might look wrong but its not really, the discomfort/sickness is of no importance As Bamboo said there is/was something wrong with you so how can 25.5 fit ? 25.5 means theres nothing wrong though it may appear so...but a virus is an illness.

However as a general issue by insisting 25.5 is a better answer (or any other hex) you make the Yi a dead thing who answers according to your own logic don't you ? BTW earlier I wasn't saying the Yi was whimsical as in 'messing with your head' type whimsical...simply that we go to it for understandings beyond our own which at times may seem incomprehensible or even irrelevant. At such times I tend to just shrug my shoulders, be aware i don't get this answer and tackle the issue same as everyone else who doesn't use the Yi. Later sometimes much later I may see what the answer meant...meantime I don't stress over it.

The value of the Yi to me is it constantly takes you out of the box of expectations and gives you something else to chew on...didn't you get 21 somewhere ;)

You may still not have even reached what 53 really meant to you for that answer, even though the gradual development of illness etc is a very plausible hypothesis your answer is so unique to your life only you can find it really.

I recall recently thinking I should not go out due to an illness, i wasn't entirely sure of how it was going to go..get worse or not, so I asked Yi and got 47.6 which really showed me much more than what I'd asked for it pointed out my concern about this thing was really based on nothing but worry. It could have given me 25.5 but that wouldn't have shown me how much my mind state was involved in things. Simple answer but gave me quite alot of insight into myself on that occasion. Sounds like what you're suggesting is each time a person has an illness of any kind that won't amount to much they should get 25.5 cos that fits ...but our psyches and our lives are much more interesting than that it seems, so many factors coming into play..so much more the Yi can tell us. As in my example..instead of saying theres no real illness it said 'your fears are way out on this', giving me a perspective I'd never have reached by myself.



Repeating what I said earler I think alot of the time,especially since we ask more and more questions these days, the Yi just describes how things are. It isn't helping us out other than to show us 'here is the situation'. We've gotten a culture like here on this forum where we ask about anything and everything casually all the time...I think Yi response to this often is it just reflects like a mirror the situation..afterall its not meant to live our lives for us. Maybe it was absolutely your decision what to do about the illness, maybe you just weren't 'advised', I don't think we always are. I'm saying that as the core of your complaint seems to be you weren't 'advised' in a useful way....
 
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Trojina

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BTW wonder where the term "wild goose chase" comes from and if we can incorporate its meaning into 53 ? :mischief:

Just found it in a book I have by Albert Jack :

A Wild Goose Chase is a fruitless pursuit with no hope of a successful outcome. Its origin comes from the earliest form of race horsing during the 1500s in England. First the lead horse would be sent off in no particular direction withthe rider able to choose his own route. After a delay a second rider would be sent off in pursuit, followed by all other competitors at regular intervals. As none of the pursuing riders knew which route the lead horse had taken they all set off in different directions akin to wild geese scurrying after their leader. The term was regularly applied to the sport but it appears to have been Shakespeare who altered the meaning to one of hopless pursuit.

Hmm but presumably wild geese know who the leader is, they're not blindly going in any direction so still not sure why this mad horse race was seen to be like geese following their leader.
 
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lanie

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rodaki, I was actually wondering the same thing before I logged back on here! That maybe Yi "knew" I'd be perturbed about the doctor-visit events, bring my frustration to all of you at this message board, and learn something. This kind of follows on from what diamanda - and other people, too; it just took me a long time to catch on! - triggered, that Yi was "arranging for" medical reassurance I didn't know I needed or wanted.

Hmmm...this is all still maybe a little too deep for me...let me go ask a question!
 
M

meng

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Perhaps Yi didn't care if you went or chose not to go to the clinic. That is entirely possible, you know. Perhaps it was inconsequential to the true matter at hand.
 

rodaki

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it just took me a long time to catch on!!

which is also another aspect of 53 ;)

and I agree with Meng about the inconsequential nature of one specific line of events -it is more their organizing principle, the underlying pattern that is important and which can manifest itself in many different scenarios . .

rodaki
 
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lanie

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trojan, I just saw your new post in the act of replying to rodaki.

You may be completely correct in what you're saying; I have no real way of knowing. And I agree with you that a given line's meaning probably usually goes beyond the literal meaning of the words. I can see how 25.5 could address a perceived problem between friends if there is actually no problem at all and nothing you need to "fix."

However, I don't think that means the literal words NEVER mean anything. And when one asks a question about going to the doctor for a possible illness, and the line contains the literal words medicine and illness, then I think the literal words would have literal meaning.

I actually have gotten 25.5 in a medical context, when I asked Yi about taking ibuprofen for neck pain. I stubbornly took the medicine anyway, and it did not help. It wasn't true that the neck pain "passed of itself" - it didn't - Yi was simply saying "Ibuprofen will not help this."

This was an example of a situation where there actually is a problem (my neck does hurt, and it's caused by something), but Yi was telling me that the solution I was asking about was not going to work. (I'm currently seeing a chiropractor.) So 25.5 doesn't always have to mean that there's totally no problem at all. It can just mean that what you're proposing to do about the problem will be ineffective or unnecessary. At least that's how it seems to me, based on this.

It's really tricky to distinguish between literal and figurative meanings of this stuff, when the same line can legitimately fit so many different situations! Whew!

Thank you so much for your effort in looking up and sharing the historical background on "wild goose chase." That's fascinating, and I love that sort of information. And Shakespeare is involved in yet another popular catch-phrase! Nifty.
 

lanie

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meng and rodaki - yes, I think it has become pretty clear that my going to the clinic was/is not the real issue. I'm going to try and ask Yi a question - hopefully a decent one! - about this. :)
 

lanie

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Q: Yi, when you gave me 53 unchanging in response to my question last Sunday about going to Minute Clinic, to what extent was it your intent to spark the chain of events that culminated in the discussion we've been having in the I Ching Community?

A: 8.3.4 > 31

--------------------

From Wilhelm-Baynes:

Hex 8 = Holding Together, Union

8.3
You hold together with the wrong people.

8.4
Hold to him outwardly also.
Perseverance brings good fortune.


Hex 31 = Influence, Wooing

--------------------

Thoughts?
 

lanie

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Myself, I don't know what to make of this.

If you just read the hexagrams, without the lines, Yi could be saying "Bringing Together (hex 31) for Mutual Support (hex 8)."

But, 8.3 seems to say that the premise of my question is wrong - this was NOT Yi's intent - and I don't know how to fit 8.4 or hex 31 in with that.

:confused:
 
D

diamanda

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As most of us have noticed, the oracle works in very mysterious ways sometimes.
It has happened to me in the past to get a hexagram, not be able to make heads
or tails of it, discuss it here and there, etc, and make some sense of it in the end,
only to find out that it came up again much later, in an entirely different context,
and the matter was important and urgent. Then i remembered immediately all the
insight i had had during the not-so-urgent time when i had the luxury to ponder
over it. Or it has happened to me to make an extensive reading for someone,
only to have the exact same answer for myself, a long time later, in which case
i was so emotionally involved, that i would have never had the insight i did when
i was doing the reading for someone else.

It's really strange how 53 speaks of 'marriage', 8 speaks of 'union', and 31 of
'wooing'. And the lines about the wrong people, and the right people. Of course
all this could be taken metaphorically, philosophically, spiritually, you name it,
but i just couldn't help but notice here the common theme. It made me think,
since this problem occurs to you frequently, why were you so worried as to go to
the doctor immediately? Obviously because you didn't want to risk it getting worse.
But it does show a bit too much worrying, especially about something which you
said is common to you. Does this stem from an insecurity of 'who's going to look
after me if i get ill?'. This is just an example though, im sure there could be many
other explanations, and only you know how it would apply to you. How does illness
connect with the people in your life?
 

lanie

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diamande, I wasn't worried about my illness. (It's actually the non-illness sore throats that "worry" me more, the ones caused by junk collected in my tonsils, just because there's no easy or reliable way to fix that. But those are just uncomfortable; you're not actually "sick.") I was exasperated because I felt that Yi did not tell me as clearly as I felt he could have that there was no need to go to the doctor. But even there, very little harm was done, just the annoyance of spending 3 hours at the Minute Clinic, paying a (pretty minor) co-pay, disrupting my day off - that sort of thing - when it wasn't medically necessary, and I felt Yi could have made that more clear.

The reason I decided to post a thread about it is precisely because the situation carries so little messy, angsty, baggage, beyond the exasperation of not getting the clear reading I thought could have been given. It was and is a very clear-cut, self-contained, over-and-done-with situation, and the results are completely known. This is why I thought it made a good example.

I should ask though: Since everyone seems so convinced that I was and am so "worried," why is that? What is it that has everyone convinced that I'm worried despite my many statements to the contrary?

[Edit: You asked "why were you so worried as to go to the doctor immediately?" and you stated that "it does show a bit too much worrying." The very boring answers are (1) I might have needed antibiotics, and I obviously can't figure that out for myself, (2) if you're wondering why I went to the Minute Clinic on a Sunday rather than my regular doctor during regular hours...the answers are: because it's there (!), because "possible strep throat" is on the list of things they treat, because it's actually closer to where I live and less expensive than the regular doctor, because going to my regular doctor the next day (Monday) would have required me to take off work...]
 
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Trojina

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Myself, I don't know what to make of this.

If you just read the hexagrams, without the lines, Yi could be saying "Bringing Together (hex 31) for Mutual Support (hex 8)."

But, 8.3 seems to say that the premise of my question is wrong - this was NOT Yi's intent - and I don't know how to fit 8.4 or hex 31 in with that.

:confused:

I can see you're not that worried. I can see why it seemed a good example for the question. I mean i think it was a good question really which is why it got so many responses i guess...made people think

As for 8 to 31 I dunno...but I don't think the Yi would have intent to spark a discussion :confused: Sometimes people say things like " the yi wanted me to see this or that etc " and that baffles me. I don't think the Yi wants anything or wants you to do anything.

I'm inclined to think 8 to 31 is simply a picture of whats happening here...no grand purpose, no intent other than what was your intent. One might say you held to erroneous ideas 8.3, you were influenced by others here and they by you ? I don't know its your answer :D Or 8.3 might mean its just a waste of time talking to us at all, we're the wrong people :eek:

As I said before I think the Yi is simply giving more and more pictures of just how it is because so many of us are asking about every little thing. We're currently working to the model that the Yi is there to be asked about every little thing, thats kind of how we've evolved together as a forum...but maybe thats coming to run its course in usefulness when we just get mirror image answers back..(maybe... but off topic i guess)
 
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zhan1

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I don't think you are giving the impression that you are worried, but maybe there is a level of intensity that is being interpreted that way. Anyway, the whole experience does serve as an example and as most have discovered by now experience with the Yi is the best way to learn.
As Meng and others have mentioned, the sore throat is probably just a side-issue and the oracle is pointing to something more pressing. A relationship issue perhaps?
 
D

diamanda

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Or 8.3 might mean its just a waste of time talking to us at all, we're the wrong people :eek:
Well i'll be darned.... lol.

Lanie, you said:

"Since everyone seems so convinced that I was and am so "worried," why is that?
What is it that has everyone convinced that I'm worried despite my many statements
to the contrary?"


I've got a suggestion - why don't you start worrying, to make it easier for us all?
:) :D
 

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