Yi - sun, moon or pots?

[hilary]

There's a whole page of the character 'Yi' here. And the funny thing is that while some of the bronze characters do look like a vessel or two, none of the older, oracle bone characters do at all. It must be harder to draw nice curvy pots on bone, of course. But it makes me wonder - how sure is anybody, really, about what this character meant to start with?

 

[bruce_g]

That is interesting. They all seem to emanate “something”, rays or rain. But isn’t it more important to convey the idea of emanation before assigning something to what is being emanated? Later comes a vessel receiving what is being poured out: the subject added to the object.

This seems to me to be an entirely natural evolution of thought, from primitive to intellectual. If this is so, then to grasp the earliest (known) meaning of Yi becomes a matter of reductionism, not expansionism. This is the position I’ve always held, because it’s seemed completely natural.

The impression I often get from learned discussions on this subject is that of a group of advanced sages, sitting around day after day, grinding away at the meaning of life in order to formulate a masterful piece of literature. The impression from inside myself is more that of a group of primates attempting to express their dreams or another such personal experience. From this primitive, un-evolved species comes a landscape of natural and universal truths. Only later, when man looses his immediate connection with nature and the Dao, does he seek to piece together the meanings through intellectual skills. Emanation is no longer an acceptable meaning. It must have a sun, moon, rain, vessel, or some thing.

 

[hilary]

Well, I don't want to get into a competition about who has the more primitive brain...

...but 'sun comes out from behind clouds' seems to me to be at least as simple and basic an idea as 'emanation'. I actually find it easier to think in and relate to solid natural images - pots and the weather and such like - than abstractions.

It's good to see a whole page of the character like that, isn't it? Really conveys the dynamics of the thing...

 

[bruce_g]

It's good to see a whole page of the character like that, isn't it? Really conveys the dynamics of the thing...

Is it dynamics or emulation of emanation? Before man, before animals, before plants, before clouds and before sun - emanation.

 

[heylise]

I don't think one excludes the other. How much need is there to write about the things one sees every day, and how much need to write about the things which are invisible. I guess they have the same importance, even though the tangible things seem to fill a larger part of reality.

To me it feels as if characters come into being in both ways at once. The effort to express, from simple 'things' to hard to convey ideas. Using the tangible image to express the mental one, because that one has no ready-made image. As long as life consists of everyday living and nothing else, there is not much need for any writing. But when meanings get assigned to things (or animals or people or whatever), or to what happens, then that need starts. Then those deeper meanings have to be passed on to next generations.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

"a landscape of natural and universal truths"
I think that is what creates the wish to save ideas in writing. The 'truths' part. It still works that way nowadays.

LiSe

 

[heylise]

The sun is not a hot ball up there, is is divine, has a life of its own. A tree has a spirit, a stone feels 'stone', water has a direct connection with an inside spirit. Nothing is a 'thing', everything has this universal spirit, everything emanates.
Nowadays we are 'rational' and think we don't see things as emanations anymore, but that is only the outer layer. Deep inside there is still this connection with everything through emanation, from it to us and from us to it. It is what makes life to life. Compared to that, the 'thing'-level is only superficial.

I love Bruce' post. It made this whole etymology business much clearer to me. As if a vague feeling suddenly got words. Writing is expressing this value of everything, rather than a description of them.

LiSe

 

[bruce_g]

Yes, they are same things, but I think part of this discussion is, what predates what?

But same in this regard: What is the difference between our sun being emanated and the sun emanating? Or, a receiver (earth, plant, animal, person) of the sun’s rays from emanating as a result of receiving emanation of the sun? They are the same emanation. And I think that is the original meaning of the Yi image, in whatever fashion it’s expressed. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but it’s how I see it.

 

[heylise]

Harmen has an article about the character "yi"
It is in Dutch, but images are universal.

 

[bruce_g]

Wish I could read Dutch. But from the images it appears that in Harmen’s illustrations there are two vessels in early oracle bones. This differs (I think?) from Hilary’s link.

Anyway, sorry if I got hung up on a word, or words. The very thing I rant against, that I do. :bag:

 

[jte]

Hilary, thanks for posting on this topic, which is of interest to me. (Was out of town for a while, so hadn't seen this.)

I think this topic gets at a fundamental question which is yet another mystery regarding the book we are all so fond of around here. It's the Classic of Yi, but what does "yi" really mean? It's important (or at least a nice-to-have) to understand this, because that is what the book is *about*, what it is the book *of*.

There's nothing wrong per se with the generally-accepted meaning of "change" but I worry a bit that "what's conventional ain't wisdom" and that this interpretation may be missing something.

I looked at Harmen's article, but I can't read Dutch. I guess two questions come to mind, hopefully someone can take a shot at answering them (although I recognize that I might be asking for the moon here, as etymology is often an imprecise science and data may be very sketchy in these areas):

1. Originally (that is, when it first began to be used) the Yi Character presumably had multiple senses. Which sense (or senses) was intended in it's use in the title of the I Ching?

2. Did anything change around 700 BC when the character seems to be changing drastically from the "2 cups" form to the "sun/clouds" form? Is this just stylistic, or is there a change in the cultural context? Perhaps a change in how the book is thought about or used, or one or more new meanings added to the senses for the character?

Just wondering, I don't have my expectations set too high, for the reasons mentioned above, but I'm certainly curious...

- Jeff

 

[frank_r]

Dutch - English translation

If you use http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr and take the text from Harmen and bring it to"een tekstfragment vertalen" select the language in "selecteer de van- en naar- talen". Then select "nederlands naar engels". And push "vertaal" and voila you have a translation. Beautifull the internet.

p.s I think you also have a English version and then its even more simple.

 

[hilary]

For some reason I hadn't noticed the replies to this thread... (where is the emoticon for that?) Thank you everyone, and for the link to Harmen's article. Yes, he does have a different-looking sequence of characters. From two vessels with hands, to the hands and then one of the vessels disappearing... and eventually - and here is something I gained from trying to 'read' the Dutch - the ear of the vessel emphasised.

In English we just call them 'handles', but we know from 50.3 that Chinese uses the same metaphor as Dutch. (At least, I'm assuming an oor is an ear.) So at or around the time Yi the book was probably becoming more widely used, the ear was becoming the dominant part of Yi the character, until it almost starts to look like what flows from hearing.

 

[hmesker]

Yes, he does have a different-looking sequence of characters. From two vessels with hands, to the hands and then one of the vessels disappearing... and eventually - and here is something I gained from trying to 'read' the Dutch - the ear of the vessel emphasised.

I would like to remark that the sequence that I describe is more or less 'false' because the oracle bones seem to indicate that at a certain time 2 or more variants of the character 'yi' were used at the same time. The picture on my site does not show this. Nevertheless I do believe the picture roughly describes how the character changed over the years.

In English we just call them 'handles', but we know from 50.3 that Chinese uses the same metaphor as Dutch. (At least, I'm assuming an oor is an ear.)

That is correct.

Harmen.

 

[jte]

Thank you for that translation link Frank R. (and to Harmen for putting this together).

So, basically we have the "exchange" 2 cups character, changing form over time into 1 cup, and then the left side of that one cup disappearing. The handle and right side of the cup are emphasized, and the liquid that was orginally being exchanged becomes the three lines.

That is very interesting to see and seems to leave little doubt as to the origin of the character. I guess another question remains, though:

As we know, the Yi has been around a long time. It would be interesting if we could track changes in the cultural understanding and usage of the Yi that accompanied changes in the form of the character. For example, when the left-side pot disappeared, why did that happen (if there *is* a reason beyond ease of writing/character style). Was there an accompanying change in divination practices at the time (or some other related change that could impact how the character was written)?

One could ask the same question at all the major transition points in the character's history (e.g., when the left side of the remaining cup disappears, when the handle gains it's internal "dot" in later forms, etc). I guess I'm just wondering which of these changes are arbitrary and which relate in important ways to the character and/or related cultural practices.

An analysis like this is probably a lot to ask for. Probably it's a topic for a paper for a Chinese History academic, rather than a bulletin board. Still, it would be interesting to hear any informed opinions...

- Jeff