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Your Experiences with Unchanging Castings, Hexagram 15

Trojina

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Anyone have an experiences, ideas.....or even dreams relating to the the particular significance of hexagram 15 in it's unchanging form ?

I have my own small theory that paying attention to the pairs is especially helpful in interpretation of unchanging castings so I looked at what Lise said about the pairs. First I found a print out I had done 10 years ago from Midaughters site where it appeared Lise had been working with Chris Loftings ideas about pairs....and this printout looks like it has been expanded upon in her website......anyway from that old printout from Lise which I always liked...she has written a heading for each pair.

For hex 15 and hex 16 she has ;

Other people have other roads

15 - work together, grant the other one what he needs, but also grant yourself what you need.

16 - inspire and be inspired.



Anyway I noticed that I seemed to have cast 15uc a few times where I cannot divulge the question here due to the fact that they are so embarrassingly unreal ....the questions that is. I imagine that must say something ! I think on those occasions 15 must have been calling my attention to reality outside of my imagination.

The one experience, slightly less embarrassing, I can relate, is when I cast 15uc about the purchase of a raincoat :eek: After I had bought it I wondered if I had been extravagent/bought something unecessary etc. Not such a trivial question as it sounds if you have to be aware of how you use your resources. I took the answer to mean the raincoat would serve a necessary function.


Of course as I write I realise well of course it serves a function it's a raincoat :rofl:.....yes yes but did I really need it....and how it looked too was an essential consideration too of course ....one cannot dispense with style just because it's raining :D

Hmm the outcome is after owning it for 2 years it has been actually a humdrum but useful item of apparel. I do notice I tend to get it out where nothing else quite fits the bill as suitable outerwear.


Okay so all my experiences with hexagram 15 uc appear as I write to have an element of embarrassment. I think perhaps as I've known it so so far for me it is a strong 'come to earth' message. I think, though i cannot recall specifically, that at other times 15 uc when enquiring if actions were necessary were saying "just do what needs to be done "

Looking back at Lise's simple sentences above also "grant yourself what you need" might apply to humdrum needs like raincoats...and "grant the other what he needs" can translate as "there is a world outside of your imaginings about X, Y or Z...they have their own reality". Referring back to reality away from imaginings is often what 15 uc has said to me....hence result=embarrasment...for me anyway....ahem


I expect others mileage to vary :D
 

Trojina

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Putting Wings comments on unchanging hexgarmas here just for reference, as I know some others here do refer to them, from the I Ching Workbook she says

"Without changing lines, the hexagram MODERATION reflects a need for temperance in dealing with the object of your enquiry. Carefully measure your reactions by disengaging opinionated attitudes. Only in this way can you begin to make progress"


I don't think 'Moderation' is a great title for the hexagram....Hilary uses the title 'Integrity' ...not yet checked what others use. For me I think of it as checking back with the reality principle...of what's true either in yourself or outside yourself. This does not necessarily mean = being humble and self effacing. Someone somewhere, (may have been Meng) said when Mohammed Ali said "I am the greatest" he was still displaying integrity....because he knew the reality of his own abilities and was being simply who he was.
 

hilary

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I can find three old 15-unchangings of my own. Odd, Yi used to spend so much time cutting me down to size I'd've thought there would be more.

There was the time in 2007 that a local PTA contacted me to ask if I would do readings for their 'Ladies' Night'. With mixed feelings, I asked Yi what it'd be like for me to do this, got 15 unchanging. Wrote back mentioning that 30 minutes would be a good minimum time for a reading, and didn't hear anything else. That one has a 'back to reality' feel to it, don't you think?

Also in 2007: What is it about Yi that makes important it should be known as a spiritual tool? what makes it precious? 15.

And a couple of years later... um, background. We were house-hunting. Husband kept changing the criteria for what we were looking for. We had just settled on some quite firm criteria, so, I asked, what do I need to understand about the next phase of the process?

15 unchanging. Quite. What I needed to understand (and did, though not for another month or so) was that he didn't really want to buy at all, and this wasn't going anywhere. I was spending lots of energy and enthusiasm looking at houses and their floorplans, imagining life in new places - all very 16-ish - when I needed to come back down to earth and connect.
 

meng

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I admit to connecting 15 instantly to Wilhelm's comment of making something difficult look easy. I just love the image, partly because it is so evident everywhere. To be, or be like that, modifies and balances extremes, such as concentration and abandon, tension and relaxation, or to use another Wilhelm example from 60, loyalty and indifference.

Here an effect that it took a long time to achieve, but that in the end seems easy of accomplishment and self–evident, is used as the image of modesty. ~ Wilhelm 15

So, I don't think Modesty is a poor word for 15, if modesty is understood correctly.

Something I've noticed since way back, the truly great ones (pros in any field) have almost always been the most humble human beings I've ever met.
 

chingching

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Just as another way to understand 15 UC: the practice of tong len, tibetan buddhist meditation, which means Giving and taking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen) has the effect of levelling out big emotions. I was taught this through a course I'm doing to help me deal with a recent break up and have been using it to breathe into my own emtions then exhale thinking of all the people in the world who are feeling this way and perhaps even more intensly from more difficult circumstances and it does bring down the intesity of the feeling, gives perspective and helps you feel united instead of isolated. It perhaps is not the epitome of 15 but there is a corrolation, and I think helpful note for anyone who recieves 15 uc.
 

Owlietta

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This is now the 2nd time I got hex 15 unchanging in regards to basically the same question. I don't ask I-ching too many times.
Is anyone interested in my question? Well basically it's me wondering how it's going to work out with me living with my boyfriend.
 

rosada

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When my sister died last summer I consulted the I Ching asking for a comment.
I received 15 unchanging.
Somehow this helped me feel at peace with her passing.
 
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sooo

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I also get 15 when I am feeling entitled to more than I've got. The teepee hut hunt continues, i.e.

57720_teepee_lg.gif


(pipe optional)
 

Tim K

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I've found some examples of readings by a Russian I-Ching master.

There was one about 15:
The parents were worried that their son and his gf didn't call them since last night. And it was in the evening already. The young couple were traveling by car back from the Black Sea coast (sea resort area in Russia), and then all the contact had stopped.

What has happened? 15.0 - Youngest son under earth. Plain and simple.

Later they found out that car lost control due to faulty steering and had crashed into a semi-truck trailer on the wrong side of the road.

Even 15, the best of hexagrams, can be 'evil'.
My mental note for 15 is - equalizer.
 

rosada

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To elaborate on my earlier posting about feeling at peace when I got 15 after my sister died:
Polly was an Aries with Moon in Aries - she was full of life and enthusiasm and eager to explore and experience everything. Unfortunately this trait caused her to take on too much and that I think more than the Lyme caused her death - she simply wore herself out. I think it's significant that she passed just at a time when she had completed several major life goals - she had just completed all the work involved as executor of my mother's estate, her garage was cleaned out for the first time in 10 years, she had finished the chapter she'd been asked to write for some medical textbook, and her doctor had just that week told her the latest blood work indicated she'd beat Lyme (she sooo didn't want to die of Lyme). Then she had this heart attack. Bam. Gone. She'd completed her work... almost. There remained loose ends to tie up but the family pulled together and together we got it handled. One of the not so good things about my sister was that she insisted on taking charge - and then taking all the credit - to the point that nobody wanted to help her, didn't even want to acknowledge her, and thus she was overworked. So 15 says to me that it is important to do one's work, but to leave room for others to contribute too. The "Modesty" is that the mountain doesn't demand that it be the only one who's efforts get recognition - interesting that would be the mountain on top of the earth = 23, Collapse.
Modesty says to me do your thing, but don't try to do everything. Leave room for others to respond.
 

Liselle

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Sneaking in to link to this thread of Ashteroid's about trying to grow a mango tree from seeds.

She got 15 unchanging about one of the seeds (see this post).

The result, and Ashteroid's take on how 15uc fits the situation, is in this post. (The seed sprouted but then, sadly, died.)
 
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Trojina

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I don't think the 15 was about the sprout dying....maybe 15uc here was just like 'use your common sense'.
Why would 15uc=a dead sprout ? I thought probably the answers were all about Ash's experience not the sprout's.



So hex 15 really became 'the middle': 'It will sprout, but it won't grow into a tree'.

I don't agree with that interpretation...too much like making it fit, and in the end as I said, 15uc doesn't =dead plant does it ?
 

Liselle

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No, I agree 15 doesn't mean dead, or will die, or anything about death.

I guess what I thought Ashteroid meant was this phrase from the Image (she quoted Wilhelm):

"It is the law of heaven to make fullness empty and to make full what is modest."

The seed was "modest," (unsprouted), and then it became "full" (sprouted), and then it was modest/empty again (dead). But surely the I Ching has some other hexagram or line that more clearly means death (can't think right now which it would be, but there must be something).

Maybe Ashteroid could tell us if she thinks common sense might apply. If there's anything she thinks should have been done differently, in hindsight? Is that the kind of thing you mean, Trojan?

I can also see how it might describe her experience with it - she thought she had a viable sprout, and then didn't. That does seem to describe the sprout too, though. But - is that even what you meant, Trojan? Sorry...I'm actually not sure what you had in mind when you said it was about her experience and not the sprout's.

I suppose another possibility is that 15uc simply meant that the sprout "lacked Integrity," or that whatever integrity it had, which allowed it to sprout at all, stopped at some point, for some reason? (This is the kind of thing that makes me think an unchanging hexagram can mean the opposite of what it's supposed to mean, even though that's not supposed to be what's going on.)

I know nothing at all about growing plants and sprouting seeds so I have no insight into what can go wrong. BUT, I just checked some readings I did about a plant that ultimately died, and it turns out I'd gotten hex 15 three times about it. Once unchanging, once 15.5.6>53, and once 15.2.5>48. If I get a burst of energy (hahaha), I might try to figure out what they were trying to tell me.

Anyway, I linked to this simply because it was a 15uc reading where we know the outcome...but maybe that doesn't make it a good example, lol. Should I un-link it?
 

Trojina

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Should I un-link it?

Oh no...it may make sense to me later. BTW Ash is a man.

Besides it doesn't have to make sense to me for it to go in here as an example
 

Trojina

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I can also see how it might describe her experience with it - she thought she had a viable sprout, and then didn't. That does seem to describe the sprout too, though. But - is that even what you meant, Trojan? Sorry...I'm actually not sure what you had in mind when you said it was about her experience and not the sprout's.

I suppose another possibility is that 15uc simply meant that the sprout "lacked Integrity," or that whatever integrity it had, which allowed it to sprout at all, stopped at some point, for some reason? (This is the kind of thing that makes me think an unchanging hexagram can mean the opposite of what it's supposed to mean, even though that's not supposed to be what's going on.)

I know nothing at all about growing plants and sprouting seeds so I have no insight into what can go wrong. BUT, I just checked some readings I did about a plant that ultimately died, and it turns out I'd gotten hex 15 three times about it. Once unchanging, once 15.5.6>53, and once 15.2.5>48. If I get a burst of energy (hahaha), I might try to figure out what they were trying to tell me.



But why would anyone need to consult Yi about this ? Either the plant will live or die. So I was thinking hex 15 was like a message to Ash "using your ordinary everyday common sense you will see what happens to the plant".

I could be wrong. I'm not a fan of the totally unnecessary question just to see what the answer is. I'm always thinking if a person is just asking for the sake of it Yi may be addressing their motive. I can see hex 15 uc as "well what do you think really given what you know ?".

No reason not to link to it though. I could be wrong afterall and the 15uc might be about the dead sprout.

A plant can never lack integrity. It is incapable of pretence. I'd say the call to integrity was for Ash to use ordinary common sense rather than ask Yi about if a plant would live or die.
 

Liselle

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A plant can never lack integrity. It is incapable of pretence.

I see what you mean. I've heard phrases like "structural integrity," though, to describe inanimate objects holding together or not - that's more how I was thinking of it.

Thanks for telling me Ashteroid is a man! Sorry, Ash! :eek:

I guess I differ a little bit about asking "unnecessary" questions. I agree that the plant will either live or die, and the question was neither necessary nor important - but Ash had tried sprouting a mango seed a year ago and failed. So when trying again, a year later, I can see how one might ask, "Will it work this time?" There are probably better ways to word it than a yes-no question. But at least there will be a guaranteed outcome to analyze the reading against. (However, I do know Yi reserves the right to frown/yell at a person for their motives or for any other reason. Am painfully familiar with it, lol.)

[few minutes later] Well, I went away from typing and looked back in the thread, and saw the following from this post:

"So hex 15 turned out to be correct, seed #4 did sprout, but I didn't get quite what I wanted."

Maybe hex 15 - Modesty - in this case meant "a little bit"? It will grow "modestly"? Which is pretty much what Ash said ('It will sprout, but it won't grow into a tree'), but from the Name of the hexagram, not from the Image text.
 

Trojina

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I'm phobic about spiders and cannot look at the horrible grey things with legs in the pictures. What the heck is it ?

Silly question Trojan....the nasty spider thing.......uuuuurgh....is a vile thing to hold sprouts whilst they grow ? If they could make them pink or turquoise I might not find it so hard to look at them


uuuuuuuurrrrghhhh.....shiver.

It's okay Trojan it's just a picture, it's not real , there there,,,,,,,,

See I am so traumatised I have split into different personalities...I have splintered off into many Trojans in order to cope with that horrible nasty grey thing Ash keeps on posting
 

Liselle

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IT IS NOT A S**D*R :eek:

Heaven forbid! If anyone ever thought it was a good idea to post such a thing on this forum I would run fast away.

You are correct, it is a plastic support to hold the sprouts. But thank you for "seeding" (har har) my brain with other things, argh! Now I see it all wrong! LOL

(Yes, PLEASE DO make them pink or turquoise. IDJITS.)

(There are no practical jokers on here who will now post vile pictures to torment us, are there?)
 

deepstillwater

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A number of months ago I got 15 unchanging with regards to a dispute on an Ebay transaction.

The buyer of an item I was selling wanted me to post a chair to them, although the condition of sale specified pick up only. They became quite abusive, and insisted I take the chair to a post office, post it and then let them know how much the postage was, and they would be happy to send me that money. Of course, I did not want to do that for a number of reasons! Yet they were very abusive, they had my phone number, and I thought I should just forget about my misgivings so that they would not bother me any more. I asked the I ching what should I do with regards to the situation: and I took it to mean nothing!

I did nothing. I didn't contact them again, and I didn't post the chair. The people went away just like that. Later I found out they have done similar things to other people.


Sadly, I have recently also thrown a 15 unchanging: What should I do regarding a situation with a young man I like, and who I have gone on a few really fun dates but that he gives quite confusing messages (keen, not keen, keen etc)?

The simple reality is, do nothing. Not the one for me it seems :)

That is my take on this anyway.
 

Trojina

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I see it as saying trust your common sense. I don't think 15uc means 'do nothing' more like it means you do have, or need to have the plain view of the reality of the situation and act in accordance with that. You did. Your view was it was best to do nothing and you were right. However if action was required according to the reality of the situation then 15 uc would ask you to take action.

15 asks you to put imaginings away and see what is really there, that's all. So IMO if Ash got 15uc for a sprout that died it is not that 15uc means death it's that he can see, find out in the ordinary course of the reality of the situation if the environment will support the plant.

Likewise using your common sense view of the situation is what 15uc was saying to you. If they were rude and aggressive then it's common sense to leave them be.

So no, one really cannot take 15uc as always 'do nothing'. That would be terribly misleading. Do nothing if doing nothing is the best thing to do but if something needs doing then do it.


Seeing things just as they are is what is needed with 15, and then acting according to that.
 

deepstillwater

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Hi Trojan,
Thanks for the further clarification on 15uc. What you say makes perfect sense. Very 15uc!

I was thinking last night after I posted this, while I feel asleep, exactly what you say and I think my explanation was too simple and broad.

I agree, that 15unchanging asks us to put our imaginings away.

In the case of Ebay: the simple reality was I had the chair, what did I want to do?

What I was trying, badly, to communicate was in my experience of 15 unchanging the very nature of seeing the world without our imaginings, where everything is NOT up to you, often invites us to just accept the situation. My experiences have been that this accepting of the situation invites me to do something INTERNALLY, and rarely externally.

Certainly, advice to do always do nothing externally is of course, very misleading, I do agree.
 

Trojina

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Overall I wanted to let people's experiences speak for themselves in these threads. I mean to take each person's own interpretation at face value....but I wanted to say that about your example...although I had doubts later about butting in on your take on it which really has it's own validity


Anyway it's a very good example I have to say :bows:
 

Liselle

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Got a phone call from my bank wanting to know if I'd be interested in one of their products. Replied that I'm perfectly happy with my current accounts, so no, thank you anyway, goodbye (in my head: argh, telemarketing; I have absolutely no need for anything other than my basic accounts; why would I even be on a list to be called?).

After I hung up, I thought, oh dear, I didn't even give him a chance to tell me what the product was. How do I know it wouldn't be helpful?

Asked Yi, "Should I have listened to him?" Response: 15uc

(I actually do know better than to ask yes/no questions, honest :eek:)

Looked up the product on the bank's website (which of course I should have done before casting a reading, but sometimes the obvious escapes me :( ). The product was a home equity credit line. I don't own a house. Nothing real or authentic there.
 

Trojina

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This is funny because I think I got the same answer, 15uc, for pretty much the same question once. The bank rang me and asked if I would like to come in so they be sure they were 'helping' me as much as possible. Naively I thought it may be to my benefit to go along. I went and it turned out it was just an excuse to try to sell me insurance I didn't need. I asked about it beforehand and swear I got 15uc.

'Use your common sense' said Yi , 'check out the facts here' like Lisa did.

I mean really, did I imagine the bank wanted to help me ? Perhaps they wanted to give me a load of money...maybe. :bag:
 

kafuka

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Yesterday I asked: Why so many home appliances have got broken lately? I'm not quite sure I understand 15 unchanging properly but I think that Yi is telling me not to look for a mystery here, it just happens because nothing lasts forever, and it's just a coincidence.
 

Owlietta

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This is now the 2nd time I got hex 15 unchanging in regards to basically the same question. I don't ask I-ching too many times.
Is anyone interested in my question? Well basically it's me wondering how it's going to work out with me living with my boyfriend.

Update: it was a disaster, and I moved out after 6 weeks.
 

Trojina

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Thanks for the update. I'm thinking the 15 was calling you back to what was workable and practical. Apart from anything else it didn't seem practical for you. I'm remembering this thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?21171-Should-I-continue-at-my-job-32-3-6 I hope you still have that job ? (any chance of an update over there ?) Hang on will check your original entry here....it was

This is now the 2nd time I got hex 15 unchanging in regards to basically the same question. I don't ask I-ching too many times.
Is anyone interested in my question? Well basically it's me wondering how it's going to work out with me living with my boyfriend.

I have to say in answer to that question it would have been quite hard to know how to take 15uc. Probably only you would have had a feel for it. 15uc calls for balanced realism. One's own subjective feelings on a situation need to take something of a back seat. So I'd say if I were converting 15uc from Yi to Trojanese it would be something like "Owlietta do you think this is actually going to work given all the practical obstacles and so on"....But Yi was totally leaving it up to you to decide. There's no specific direction indicated. So it seems what happened was you decided, despite all that, you wanted to go ahead. There's nothing wrong with that and maybe that's why this is such a neutral answer. To explore 15 here if you turned back time and you were in the role of best friend to your past self I wonder what kind of obstacles you would warn her of ? For example being in a job where you are happy and have friends is very important, and all the other factors that made up your life before you moved.

How do you see that 15uc now ? Sorry it didn't work out but maybe it was something you needed to do ? I think even though you now see it as a 'disaster' it was something Yi was giving you no very strong direction on so maybe your choice, and your growth through that choice was important.
 
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Owlietta

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Trojina, I am still living with my current boyfriend! And yes, I still have the job, thanks for asking. The commute has actually gotten smoother now that it's fall and the trains run a bit more often.

The boyfriend who was a disaster to live with was back in 2013.
 

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