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Zhu Xi's rules

Win_Po

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I've been relying on these in recent months and found them fairly useful. It also helps with multiple moving lines where I feel the first Hex "needs" to change to the second and not all the moving line strictly apply, more the destination and one ruling principle(line). Does anyone else use them?

Zhu Xi's rules, set down in 1186:

One moving line takes priority over the hexagram and the changed hexagram.

Two lines change - take the upper, which takes priority in a similar way.

Three lines change - take the middle. (However, from a different source: 1st hex judgement as the question & 2nd hex judgement as the prognostication)

Four lines change - go to the transformed hexagram and use the lower of the two Unchanging lines.

Five lines change - use the unchanging line from the first hexagram.

All lines move - the judgment is applicable.
 

Trojina

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Why do you find you need these rules ?

Surely this is just a way to escape dealing with multiple moving lines. You have a whole reading so use it don't truncate it just to make life easier. It actually doesn't make it easier because you just lopped off great big parts of the answer.


Four lines change - go to the transformed hexagram and use the lower of the two Unchanging lines.

That would be a really bizarre, random and bad idea. If you have 4 moving lines don't run away from them by doing a complicated little jig like this, learn how to work with the 4 moving lines you actually got instead.
 

moss elk

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One moving line takes priority over the hexagram and the changed hexagram.

Of the six 'rules' he decided on,
only the first is correct. The other five are mistakes.

What he did was try to eliminate multiple line rulings. You can see this is an error if you receive for example:
8.5.6 (23)
Using his system, that would change the received reading result to 8.6 (20).

It is like sweeping uncomprehended things under a rug, pretending they do not exist.
 

Win_Po

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Of the six 'rules' he decided on,
only the first is correct. The other five are mistakes.

What he did was try to eliminate multiple line rulings. You can see this is an error if you receive for example:
8.5.6 (23)
Using his system, that would change the received reading result to 8.6 (20).

It is like sweeping uncomprehended things under a rug, pretending they do not exist.

I think you are misunderstanding. The second hexagram is what it always is based on however many lines are changing in the first.
The "rules" are simply what part of the lines/judgement we should pay the most attention to. Zhu Xi was no fool. He was important in rescuing the Yi from late Kongfuzi ideas that tried to cast the Yi as a philosophical rather than devinatory work.
 

moss elk

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I didn't say he was a fool.
I said he made a mistake.
(Even Einstein made mistakes: was a racist in his youth, and realized the mistake later)
Don't mix the two up.


I can say from experience that his method is wrong.

Say you got a reading of 35.4.5
His method would have you ignore the danger in line 4.
See how that is a problem?
Same if you got 53.3.4, his method would ignore the brutality in line 3.
You can look up many more examples of this yourself.
 
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svenrus

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44.2.4.
24.2.5.
8.2.4.

(more exceptions ?)
 
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svenrus

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Concerning the Rules for determinating among multiple Changing lines authored by Chu Hsi, Joseph Adler has a translation [LINK]* where, in the Chapter IV (page 62-82) You can read it in detail.
Chapter III (page 46-61) divination with stalks of Yarrows in general.

* direct Download
---------------------------


(Out of context, I find this passage concerning Unchanged hexagrams interesting. Page 63:

"Any hexagram may have all unchanging lines. In that case we prognosticate on the basis of the original hexagram's T'uan statement, taking the inner hexagram as chen [the question, or present situation] and the outer hexagram as hui [the prognostication] **. [Ts'ai Yüan-ting:] The T'uan statement is the statement under the hexagram.155 [For example,] K'ung Ch'eng-tzu divined to establish the Duke of Wei's son, Yüan [as successor], and obtained Chun [hexagram 3], which says: "It is beneficial to establish princes."156 And Po of Ch'in attacked Chin, and divined for it, obtaining Ku [hexagram 18], which has wind as the lower trigram (chen) and mountain as the upper trigram (hui).157

[155 This is more commonly called the kua-tz'u, or hexagram statement. "T'uan statement" (t'uan-tz'u) should not be confused with the T'uan appendix (T'uan-chuan).
156 Tso-chuan (Tso's Commentary to the Spring and Autumn Annals), Duke Ch'ao, 7th year. See James Legge, trans., The Chinese Classics, vol. 5, The Ch'un Ts'ew with The Tso Chuen, pp. 615 (Chinese), 619 (English).
157 Ibid., Duke Hsi, 15th year. Legge, pp. 164, 167. ] "

** The Inner Hexagram: Nuclear and the Outer Hexagram: Primary hexagram.

This could be seen as the nuclear hexagram reflecting what I Ching is reacting on - Or ??? )
 
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my_key

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Concerning the Rules for determinating among multiple Changing lines authored by Chu Hsi, Joseph Adler has a translation [LINK]* where, in the Chapter IV (page 62-82) You can read it in detail.
Chapter III (page 46-61) divination with stalks of Yarrows in general.

* direct Download
---------------------------


(Out of context, I find this passage concerning Unchanged hexagrams interesting. Page 63:

"Any hexagram may have all unchanging lines. In that case we prognosticate on the basis of the original hexagram's T'uan statement, taking the inner hexagram as chen [the question, or present situation] and the outer hexagram as hui [the prognostication] **.

** The Inner Hexagram: Nuclear and the Outer Hexagram: Primary hexagram.

This could be seen as the nuclear hexagram reflecting what I Ching is reacting on - Or ??? )
Hi svenrus

Firstly, many thanks for this post.

With unchanging hexagrams, in the past, I have found good value in following the advice of the Noble One. I've not had any real understanding of where this advice comes from or why it is a favourable thing to do. I suppose in the face of no clear options it was a positive thing to accomodate.

From what you have posted, it does seem to make sense that as the energy source behind the primary hexagram is coming from / through the nuclear hexagram that when all things are in mid-process (in balance / unchanging) then the best advice would be to carry on countering / addressing the root cause of the situation, so helping the process to further advance. It's a kind of 'as you were' piece of advice as if you weren't already there there would be indications to do something more immediate though a line changing.

When checking through a number of the hexagrams

Primary / Nuclear
Hex 51 - Shock Hex 39 - Difficulty
The Noble One in fear and dread sets things in order and is watchful.
(Difficulty is all around, shaking us up so lets attempt some semblance of order and putting things right)
Hex 4 - Enveloping Hex 24 - Returning
The Noble One nourishes character with the fruits of action.
(Inner worth / value / truth is returning but still in it's infancy so let's feed it to help it grow.)
Hex 3 - Sprouting Hex 23 - Stripping
The Noble One weaves warp and weft.
(To assist with weeding the seed box we bring order and clear space to support the new growth.)

This looks promising for my new understanding of nuclear to noble one.

When you say "This could be seen as the nuclear hexagram reflecting what I Ching is reacting on" I would have one slight reservation here in that I see the primary hexagram in an unchanging situation being more of a considered response to the root cause (the nuclear hexagram) rather than a reaction. The I Ching is 'responding to' rather than 'reacting on'.

It's kind of saying, trust me, I know what's behind all of this. No worries, no rush, things are all in hand (even though they may not seem so to the querent) just do a bit more of this or turn down the volume on that and you'll be working in the right direction.

With respect to Zhu Xi's rules I'd see them more as an aid to prioritisation and simplification for thoughts and actions. Although I remain open to there being secret passageways that can be followed that support these rules I'm not sure I will follow them entirely, particularly when the rules for 4 and 5 lines are called up. Personally, I like the story telling around situations that can come from single or multiple changing lines. You never know though, things may change.
 
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svenrus

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Hi svenrus

………………………. When you say "This could be seen as the nuclear hexagram reflecting what I Ching is reacting on" I would have one slight reservation here in that I see the primary hexagram in an unchanging situation being more of a considered response to the root cause (the nuclear hexagram) rather than a reaction. The I Ching is 'responding to' rather than 'reacting on'.

It's kind of saying, trust me, I know what's behind all of this. No worries, no rush, things are all in hand (even though they may not seem so to the querent) just do a bit more of this or turn down the volume on that and you'll be working in the right direction.
……………………………………..

I actually added an Or ?

Some - or rather many - years ago I accidentally falls upon the phenomena that the nuclear hexagram reflected my situation. The question were about the flat I live in and I haven't looked at the nuclear hexagram at all until I wondered when discover that it were hex. 37: Home, The family etc. That it actually showed to me what my question were about. In later readings I were attentive on this phenomena and I think that it maybe could be so, namely that the nuclear hexagram reflects or - as You put it: respond to my question. And Yes: maybe "react" doesn't express it....
I trust in Joseph Adlers translation when I use the word nuclear for the Inner hexagram and primary for the Outer hexagram. Later in the qoutation here he use lower Trigram and upper Trigram (Somewhere I've read that the word Gua are used for trigram as well as hexagram)
 
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my_key

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I actually added an Or ?
Indeed you did.
Some - or rather many - years ago I accidentally falls upon the phenomena that the nuclear hexagram reflected my situation. The question were about the flat I live in and I haven't looked at the nuclear hexagram at all until I wondered when discover that it were hex. 37: Home, The family etc. That it actually showed to me what my question were about. In later readings I were attentive on this phenomena and I think that it maybe could be so, namely that the nuclear hexagram reflects or - as You put it: respond to my question. And Yes: maybe "react" doesn't express it....
The connection you made that the nuclear hexagram reflected your situation and from that gaining a deeper understanding is a powerful step to have taken. Awareness of this connection adds value to any reading and deserves attention. Similarly, in future, I will be paying more attention to the words of the Image and how the guidance in that relates / responds to the imbalance held in the nuclear hexagram.

I trust in Joseph Adlers translation when I use the word nuclear for the Inner hexagram and primary for the Outer hexagram. Later in the qoutation here he use lower Trigram and upper Trigram (Somewhere I've read that the word Gua are used for trigram as well as hexagram)
For now I'm delighted with your use of the word nuclear. Who knows,though, what wisdoms I may be tripped up be in the future?

Good Luck
 

my_key

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And whom is the 'noble one'?

Hi Freedda
That is a particularly good question.

A thread started by Hilary explores the qualities that the superior man ( noble one) can choose to embrace. In that thread I liked what Bradford had written and had added a perspective that made sense for me at the time.

One image for me of junzi, though, is one of an active seeker of power and virtue. Searching for ways to better live life, on a personal and relational basis, through developing more highly refined qualities of character while, most importantly, keeping both feet firmly planted on the ground. A high-calibre journeyman treading the road less travelled: looking to realise their full potential.

In simple terms, I'd venture that everyone is the 'noble one', or at least has the potential to advance in their nobility. Perhaps, the noble one is someone who holds aspirations towards growing up, Maybe, somewhere, the wisdom of the I Ching held in the Image speaks to those aspirations.

I'd be interested to hear your own thoughts on your question.

Good Luck
 
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Freedda

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My key, I asked you: And whom is the 'noble one?

And you replied ....
A thread started by Hilary explores the qualities that the superior man ( noble one) can choose to embrace. In that thread I liked what Bradford had written and had added a perspective that made sense for me at the time ....
I took part in that thread and I have a sense of different people's take and impression about the noble (young) one.

But in looking at this, I'm thinking that perhaps I didn't ask the right question .... You said - 'With unchanging hexagrams, in the past, I have found good value in following the advice of the Noble One.

So, the question I have is, what is the advice from the noble one that you are following? That's what is not clear to me.

From your posts, I'm guessing that by 'advice' what you are referring to is each trigram's image text. Or, in other words, for the unmoving/unchangiong hexagrams, you are getting some insight from the text on the images that was added as part of the Ten Wings - the Confusian commentary which was added to the Yi many centuries after the oracle and line text. Do I have that about right?

Best, David.
 
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Freedda

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Looking at four different readings;
59.2.4.5 > 45
59.2.4.6 > 45
59.3.4.5 > 50
59.3.4.6 > 28 (and I hope I did the conversions correctly) ....

According to Zhu Xi's rule for three moving lines, you would treat all four of these different readings as if they were the same - by only looking at Line 59.4 as the Yi's response.

It seems to me that if I were to apply this 'rule' I'd be eliminating much of the Yi's response, and therefore, it would feel to me as if I were 'dumbing down' the answer.

I'd also be changing the Yi's response in a fundemental way - after all, in all four of the cases above, none of them have just 59.4 as the response, so why should I make this be my answer? It makes no sense to me.

Best, D.
 
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svenrus

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I have to apologize for taken the inner hexagram as being the nuclear and the outer hexagram for being the primary hexagram (in those cases where moving line/lines appears) as it as well could be meant that the inner hex = primary and the outer = secondary hexagram (Just spotted this posibility in #1 this thread).

-----------------------

In the section How to interpret changing lines on THIS site there is also a link to Joseph Adlers translation of Chu Hsi's work.

In hex. 44.2.4 I would have no doubt following Chu Hsi's rules, line four having first priority contrary to staying in need for a decision to make, having both lines to be the prognostication....
 
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svenrus

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BTW wasn't it C.G. Jung who in his introduction to the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching introduced the method of letting all the moving lines play a role ? (Just occured to me)
 

Gmulii

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In the Zhouyi there is text connected to all lines of first and second hexagrams changing.
That seems to be the only situation where we can see what happens with multiple changing lines.

And its somewhat easy to see that the text given doesn't exist anywhere in the book. It isn't the text of any line of the 2 hexagrams it will go through.
Suggesting, if we have 6 changing lines in Hex 1 and 2 and we use rule to figure out what line that would mean, that will give very different outcome then what the book would intent.

Line priority can work for some time, some of the methods for that give not all bad results(the one in crane in the shade I was using for some years). Yet at the end, we need to either find a way to be able to read info without having the text with the specific line change or we need to make the system only show one changing line. Both are practiced in China.
 

my_key

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But in looking at this, I'm thinking that perhaps I didn't ask the right question .... You said - 'With unchanging hexagrams, in the past, I have found good value in following the advice of the Noble One.

So, the question I have is, what is the advice from the noble one that you are following? That's what is not clear to me.

Hi David
As with all interactions with the I Ching it is so important to ask the right question.:)
Looking at my post again I think what I have typed is not exactly what I was wanting to say and that may have contributed to your lack of clarity. I wrote

'With unchanging hexagrams, in the past, I have found good value in following the advice of the Noble One. '
however, rather than 'advice of' a clearer wording of what I wanted to say would be 'advice directed at' or 'advice offered to' in the text of the image.

From your posts, I'm guessing that by 'advice' what you are referring to is each trigram's image text. Or, in other words, for the unmoving/unchangiong hexagrams, you are getting some insight from the text on the images that was added as part of the Ten Wings - the Confusian commentary which was added to the Yi many centuries after the oracle and line text. Do I have that about right?
Yes, I am referring to the text held in the Image. This is the guidance I look to engage with for readings giving unchanging hexagrams. Similarly I also engage with it in readings where there are changing lines. To listen to this text in unchanging hexagrams, for me, seems a common sense approach - if it's good enough to be offered to the noble one, it's good enough for me! Now seeing a source for these words, even if written centuries after the oracle and line text, as resting in the nuclear hexagram has been a reassuring insight.

Thinking a bit more about this linkage using Wilhelms words -
Primary - Hex 51 - (The Arousing) Shock
Wilhelms commentary:"The shock that comes from the manifestation of God within the depths of the earth makes man afraid, but this fear of God is good, for joy and merriment can follow upon it. When a man has learned within his heart what fear and trembling mean, he is safeguarded against any terror produced by outside influences. Let the thunder roll and spread terror a hundred miles around: he remains so composed and reverent in spirit that the sacrificial rite is not interrupted. This is the spirit that must animate leaders and rulers of men-a profound inner seriousness from which all terrors glance off harmlessly.

Wilhelms Image:
Thus in fear and trembling
The superior man sets his life in order
And examines himself.

Wilhelms commentary on the Image: The shock of continuing thunder brings fear and trembling. The superior man is always filled with reverence at the manifestation of God; he sets his life in order and searches his heart, lest it harbor any secret opposition to the will of God. Thus reverence is the foundation of true culture.

And what is behind or at the root of all this ? What drives the activity of setting his life in order and all that heart searching? It's the energies pulsing through from the nuclear Hex 39, Obstruction.

Wilhelms commentary: .... a dangerous abyss lying before us and a steep, inaccessible mountain rising behind us. We are surrounded by obstacles; at the same time, since the mountain has the attribute of keeping still, there is implicit a hint as to how we can extricate ourselves. The hexagram represents obstructions that appear in the course of time but that can and should be overcome. Therefore all the instruction given is directed to overcoming them.

.... and to take it one step further. The core of Hex 39 is Hex 64 (Before Completion)

Wilhelms commentary:This hexagram indicates a time when the transition from disorder to order is not yet completed. The change is indeed prepared for, since all the lines in the upper trigram are in relation to those in the lower. However, they are not yet in their places...... this hexagram presents a parallel to spring, which leads out of winter's stagnation into the fruitful time of summer. With this hopeful outlook the Book of Changes come to its close.

So in summary. As we climb the ladder, in this case we are passing through a moment where we are being asked to address aspects of our character and beliefs to 'safeguarded against any terror produced by outside. influences'. The way of doing this comes from learning through experience i.e facing obstructions and becoming aware of ways of overcoming them. Because although 'change is indeed prepared for' somewhere it has been recognised that 'the transition from disorder to order is not yet completed' and a little push generated by a few obstacles will see the matter through.
 
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Freedda

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Looking at my post again I think what I have typed is not exactly what I was wanting to say and that may have contributed to your lack of clarity. I wrote

.... Yes, I am referring to the text held in the Image. This is the guidance I look to engage with for readings giving unchanging hexagrams. Similarly I also engage with it in readings where there are changing lines.

... So in summary ....
No, the confusion was mine alone. To summarize my understanding of your way of reading: you look at the Image text and the nuclear hexagrams, along with Wilhelm's commentary - and all of these you find helpful in your interpretation. Is that about it?

Best, D.
 
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Freedda

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In the Zhouyi there is text connected to all lines of first and second hexagrams changing. That seems to be the only situation where we can see what happens with multiple changing lines.
Yes, my understanding is that it is only in the first and second hexagrams where we find something written about what it means when all the lines are changing.

.... Suggesting, if we have 6 changing lines in Hex 1 and 2 and we use (a) rule to figure out what line that would mean, that will give very different outcome then what the book would intent.
I think what you're saying here is: when we have all the lines moving with Hex. 1 and 2, we look at this 'seventh' line text, instead of looking at the text for all the six changing lines.

I agree, but I don't see it as a 'rule', nor that we should apply this (or any rule) to the other 62 hexagrams. If that were the case, I assume the Yi's authors would have just included 62 more line meanings, one for every time you have all lines changing in the other 62 hexagrams.

I assume instead that the Yi's authors specifically thought it was important to add an extra line in both Hex 1 and Hex 2 to give meaning to the rare instances when all the lines were moving in these two hexagrams - and only for these two hexagrams.

Line priority can work ... some of the methods ... give not all bad results (the one in crane in the shade I was using for some years).

Yet at the end, we need to either find a way to be able to read info without having the text with the specific line change or we need to make the system only show one changing line. Both are practiced in China.
First, a question, is 'crane in the shade' referring to a specific book or to a specific hexagram or line in the Yi, or .... ? (Note: answered by Svenrus, below)

Second, you imply that we have only two choices when dealing with multiple moving lines: to either read their meaning without referring to the Yi's text OR that we come up with a system that gives us only one moving line.

While one or both of these options may work for you, I believe that people have many other, valid ways of interpreting multiple moving lines - including just reading the lines' text - and that we don't have just an either/or option for how we do this.

Also, there is nothing in the original Yi text that would infer the use of a rule or rules for how to deal with multiple moving lines - in fact, the Yi is completely silent on how we are supposed to use it. It gives us the Oracle (hexgram) text and text for each line, and that's it. The 'instructions' are not included.

Best, D.
 
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Freedda

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I think Gmulii meant "Calling crane in the shade", the Birocco-site I referred to in post #15
Thanks, I am familar with that site, though I didn't remember what it was called.

I have used the socalled NanJing-rule for a long time but now I use my own method.
Is the 'nanjing rule' that you used to use the same as what I found here?

I too use my own method, though to call it a 'method' implies more structure and consistancy than I usually use. My method might better be described as a collection of methods or an 'approach'.

Best, D.
 
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Gmulii

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think what you're saying here is: when we have all the lines moving with Hex. 1 and 2, we look at this 'seventh' line text, instead of looking at the text for all the six changing lines.

I agree, but I don't see it as a 'rule', nor that we should apply this (or any rule) to the other 62 hexagrams. If that were the case, I assume the Yi's authors would have just included 62 more line meanings, one for every time you have all lines changing in the other 62 hexagrams.

I assume instead that the Yi's authors specifically thought it was important to add an extra line in both Hex 1 and Hex 2 to give meaning to the rare instances when all the lines were moving in these two hexagrams - and only for these two hexagrams.

I mean that in my point of view the reason for including 2 situations when there is a text with 6 changing line is done, so people have some hint that multiple changing lines will have different meaning. In that sense if they wanted to include all possible combinations of all possible changing lines that would make the book gigantic, as the possible permutations are way too many.

We can take the idea that that is done because 6 changing lines is very important in hexagram 1 and 2, and not so important in the others, but important isn't the question here, the principle of reading with multiple changing lines is the important part. Because now we know 6 changing lines have different meaning then any rule can provide. And that very likely means that any combination of changing lines will have different meaning as well.

So it doesn't really matter why they included them, the important fact is the text is different with multiple changing lines.
So its not about 6 changing line by itself, its about more then 1 changing line, as that is clear and difficult to argue with, example of that.

The idea is to figure out what it means that we have the text of 6 changing line and it is different then anything else we can find in the book.
With the notation that if that is different, logically if we had the text with 6 changing line in another hexagram that would be different as well. And that suggest if we had the text with 2 changing lines, that is very likely to be different as well. And if the text with 2 changing lines isn't in the book then we need another way to read it.

About the 2 ways...
My idea was that either we try to find meaning in multiple changing lines outside of the text with the rest of the lines, or we make the hexagram in a way that show only one changing line.

The only other possible solution is to take meaning from another line and add it to that reading. But we already know that is unlikely to work, as in the examples of 6 changing line, no single line has that meaning.

So there aren't that many ways. We read the lines outside of the text. We read the lines with the text. We don't have the lines, that seems to be it. : )

My point is that no matter why they added text with all changing lines for hexagram 1 and 2, we can use that to see how they would read all changing lines in a hexagram. Logically, its unlikely they could make a book with all possible combinations and permutations as that will be much, much bigger then most authors would be comfortable with. So in my view enough hints were provided what was given and what we were expecting to figure out for ourselves. And in the information provided it seems clear using text with a specific line for first or second hexagram can't work very well. The other stuff, like reading both hexagrams and figuring out the reading from there seems reasonable, but I wasn't commenting on that part.
 
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svenrus

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Thanks, I am familar with that site, though I didn't remember what it was called.

Is the 'nanjing rule' that you used to use the same as what I found here?
I too use my own method, though to call it a 'method' implies more structure and consistancy than I usually use. My method might better be described as a collection of methods or an 'approach'.

Best, D.

No, it was that given in: Richard Rutt, Zhouyi-a bronze age document, page 170 in Routledge N.Y. 2002
I think I remember RussellCottrell were critical about the "Nanjing-rule" (?)
 
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Freedda

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l
... my point ... the reason for including 2 situations when there is a text with 6 changing line is done, so people have some hint that multiple changing lines will have different meaning .... if they wanted to include all possible combinations of all possible changing lines that would make the book gigantic ....
I can understand that you might see these two lines as examples of what happens when all 6 lines change, but that is only an assumption on your part, and we have no proof that is what the Yi's authors intended. I'd say if that were the case, they could have very easily adding another 62 statements - one for each instance where all six lines are changing. But they didn't, so we can only guess that this was a 'hint' - and we can only guess what it means and how to interpret it.

Because now we know 6 changing lines have different meaning then any rule can provide. And that very likely means that any combination of changing lines will have different meaning as well.

.... the important fact is the text is different with multiple changing lines. So its not about 6 changing line by itself, its about more then 1 changing line, as that is clear and difficult to argue with, example of that.
Again, you are taking 2 line statements out of 4,100 and giving them meaning and pretty much saying 'this is the way it is for all instances when you have two or more changing lines.' However, all you're basing this on is your assumptions about what you think these two lines should mean, but you really have no proof of that. You really don't know if this 'hint' applies to only two line statements, or to 64, or to 384, or to 4,032 (this last number being the number of instances where we have multiple moving lines).

By way of example, someone comes to me and says they have a horse who has won 2 out of 4,032 races, but they then try to convince me that these two wins are 'hints' that he will win in other races - and further that this is a very 'clear' hint that you can't really argue with. What would my response likely be: yes, these two races (out of 4,032) are clear proof that this horse will win all of it's future races, or .... hmmm, I need a bit more proof before I'm convinced that these two races are 'hints' of future wins?

About the 2 ways ... My idea was that either we try to find meaning in multiple changing lines outside of the text with the rest of the lines, or we make the hexagram in a way that show only one changing line.

The only other possible solution is to take meaning from another line and add it to that reading. But we already know that is unlikely to work, as in the examples of 6 changing line, no single line has that meaning .... So there aren't that many ways. We read the lines outside of the text. We read the lines with the text. We don't have the lines, that seems to be it. : )
Assuming for a moment that these two 'seventh' line statements in Hex. 1 and 2 are in fact 'hints' which mean that we should treat all instances where we have more than one moving line differently, how are we supposed to do that? I don't see any direction or instructions in the Yi, and I'm not sure you've said - with any detail - how we'd do that?

And, again I think there are multiple ways for how to read multiple moving lines: you can just read the line statements; you can try to combine the meanings of these statements so they tell one 'story' (and not multiple ones); you could glean meaning from the trigrams in a whole host of ways. You could also somehow have a system where you pick one line to represent or 'speak' for the other moving lines, and those are just a few ways I know about.

Finally, I dont' really know what you mean when you say: to 'take meaning from another line and add it to that reading, or when you say, 'We read the lines outside of the text. We read the lines with the text.' ?

D.
 
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Gmulii

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Does it matter, though?
Lets say it wasn't on purpose, they just thought the text with changing 6 lines is so important in hexagram 1 and 2 that they had to include it.
Even if that was the case we still have how to read changing lines and we can still see the difference from the existing text in the book.

Although I do have to mention, that if that 2 were suppose to be so special, the text that comes with them doesn't seem to reflect that. If we look at it, we may start to wonder why someone would think this situations were so important as to include them and not the rest.

So it makes a lot more sense it was a hint to how to read changing lines and these 2 were included because they were first in the order, not because they were special in any way. But other ways to think of it are possible, at the end of the day they can't change the fact that we can see how they would read multiple changing lines, be that the purpose or not.

As the idea there is different meaning only in hexagram 1 and 2 and only when there are all changing lines doesn't seem very likely.

And, again I think there are multiple ways for how to read multiple moving lines: you can just read the line statements; you can try to combine the meanings of these statements so they tell one 'story' (and not multiple ones); you could glean meaning from the trigrams in a whole host of ways.

But if you combine all the statements of all the individual lines of hex 1 and 2, would you arrive at the text that comes with all changing lines in the book?
If not then the rule as working to see what will happen with multiple changing lines brings different result then what the book suggest. And I would guess very different for most people as combining often contradicting info that comes with all lines can be challenging thing to do.

Working with the Trigrams, sure.
That or any other way that provide meaning without having to always look at the text. With the idea the book is something like a math book. It provides very simple equations already made with the idea people will study them and will learn to make them on their own for more complicated situations. Giving also the examples of all changing lines in hex 1 and 2, to show how it works for very complicated equations as well.

If we keep on trying to find answer to everything in the book, there will be problems. As there comes a time we need to go beyond that.

And again - we don't have to agree that was the idea back then. They may have included the extra info in hex 1 and 2 for variety of reasons. But the result is still the same, we do know how they would read multiple lines now and we do know how the different systems we use can arrive at something similar or not.
 
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Freedda

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Even if that was the case we still have how to read changing lines and we can still see the difference from the existing text in the book.
And again, as I said above, assuming you're right, how do we then interpret the other 4,032 instances where we have multiple moving lines? You say these two statements in hexagrams 1 and 2 show us how to do this, but I don't see where we're given that direction - those instructions - but you say it does show us 'how to read changing lines', so I'm asking you to show me how, to maybe give an example.

And maybe, to keep it consistent, as an example you can use 3.1.2.3.4.5.6 - the next hexagram with all moving lines.

D.
 
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Gmulii

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And again, as I said above, assuming you're right, how do we then interpret the other 4,032 instances where we have multiple moving lines? You say these two statements in hexagrams 1 and 2 show us how to do this, but I don't see where we're given that direction - those instructions - but you say it does show us 'how to read changing lines', so I'm asking you to show me how, to maybe give an example.

And maybe, to keep it consistent, as an example you can use 3.1.2.3.4.5.6 - the next hexagram with all moving lines.

D.

I would read it with Liu Yao. : )
But my idea was that any other way of reading it then trying to find the meaning in already existing line would make more sense. As that was how the topic started it seems.
 
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Freedda

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I would read it with Liu Yao ....
And what or who is Liu Yao? This is the first time those two words are being used in this discussion.

And so again, as an example (and as a way to learn), how would Liu Yao read 3.1.2.3.4.5.6? Or how would you read it? What advice, or message, or meaning is being given to us? And how did you or they arrive at this answer?
 
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moss elk

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how do we then interpret the other 4,032 instances where we have multiple moving lines?

In a single line, we can see the marriage of hex 'A's meaning with hex 'B''s meaning, which produces a new meaning with qualities of both.

In 1.1.2.3.4.5.6 (2), we see Hex 1 and Hex 2 married into the 'super line' text of 1.7
(we can see from 1.7 and 2.7 that Yi is unfinished, thousands more super lines could have been written, someone started with The Forest of Changes)

The same can be done with any reading with change lines. Marry the Received and Related text=there is the answer.
Consider the Received text to be the subject or object or 'meat' of the answer, and consider the Related text to describe the qualities, to color or 'pull' the meaning of the received hex. (it's a This kind of That) The more lines there are. the less signifigance they have, being merely fine details that can actually distract one from the answer: staring at the wood grain, when the answer is a table.
 

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