Well, this is something that our friend, Lianshan, may enjoy to read. Others will find some very interesting information about the way Yi readings and plastro-scapulomancy was recorded in ancient Zhou times.

I recently acquired a difficult to find journal, Early China No.6 1980-1981, looking for a specific article (I found later that the journal is full of great articles): "An Interpretation of the Divinatory Inscriptions of Early Chou Bronzes" by Chang Cheng-Lang

This is a translation of an article published in Chinese by the Institute of History, Chinese Academy of Social Science, Beijing, in 1980.

You can find a PDF version of the article here

Enjoy,

Luis

Chang Cheng-lang

There remains scholarly speculation as to whether or not Fu Tzu was a personal name or a title and whether or not the Fu Tzu(s) were concubines to the kings they served. For a complete discussion of the Fu Tzu, see "A Brief Discussion of Fu Tzu," by Chang Cheng-lang, and also more papers on the subject found in Studies of Shang Archeology, Yale University Press, K. C. Chang, editor, 1986. The basic work on divination during the Shang Dynasty is Sources of Shang History, the Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China, by David N. Keightley. I Ching by Kerson and Rosemary Huang, p.49.(1987) also discusses Lady Jing.


" The Fu Tzu belonged to a group of hereditary female attendants (shih fu); there could have been Fu Tzu under every king and there was not just one in the reign of Wu Ting." Chang Cheng-lang


http://members.fortunecity.com/midaughter/page_of_the_youngest_daughter.htm

After reviewing the implements of her grave (tomb 5) I opined that she was immortalized as Tui, the Youngest Daughter although it appears that the oracle bones which described her were not written about until the Han Dynasty. In WB there are alternate explanations of the word 'Fu" I gave an alternate explanation more consistent with the Wu Ting (her husband) years in Hexagram 63 and the war against the Huns of the north, especially the 'simple sacrifice' spoklen of in this hexagram.. Since her official title was "keeper of the sacrifices' her job was to determine the correct sacrifice to made for the victory won at 'bitter cost.' She sacrified a simple pig, unlike the neighbors of the east with their elaborate ox sacrifice because 'god looks intro the heart.' Lately I have been looking into the theory that while the Zhou actually lived to the west of the Shang, there was an oxbow lake that made the geographical place for the Zhou king to make his elaborate ox sacrifice actually in the east. They were allies in the war against the Huns.

Chang Cheng-lang was nearly 90 in 1985. Many thanks for this file, Luis

Hi Mary, thanks for the references. Enjoy the file.

Luis

sparhawk said:

Well, this is something that our friend, Lianshan, may enjoy to read.

Click to expand...

Hi sparhawk

Thanks for link There are remarkable differences in signs/hexagrams shown in 1-4-10-11-12-28-32 of the this and the other Chang Cheng-lang link??? I have compared and tried put the information into a scheme:

.............. This link:

04 <:II<I ... 01 <:IIxI vertical
05 xII<:I ... 02 xII<:I horisontal / Chang-chiao-p'o bovina scapula (Hao)

06 <<:II< ... 03 <<:II<
07 I<<<<I ... 04 <I<<<I / Chang-chiao-p'o bovina scapula (Hao)

08 II<III .... 05 II<III / Chang-chiao-p'o leg bone from wild animal (Feng)

02 :<<#:+ ... 06 :<<#:+ / carved upright (according to Field in the middle of 7-8)
03 +#+<<< .. 07 +#+<<< / carved upside down with text
01 +:+<+< .. 08 +:+<+< / carved upside down with text / Ssu-p'an-mo bone (Annyan)

09 :+:+:z ... 09 :+:+:z / Chou-yüan bone no.7 (The original plate is printed upside down)

10 +<<+<< ... 10 +:<+<< / Chou-yüan bone no.81

11 +<<II: ... 11 +<<+I: / Chou-yüan bone no.85 with text "Will give king gift of fish"

34 ;<+<+I ... 12 ?<<++I / Chou-yüan bone no.90 (Upper part incomplete)

35 <<+<I: ... 13 <<++I; / Chou-yüan plastron no.91 (Lower part incomplete)

12 +<:<+< ... 14 +<:<+< / Chou-yüan plastron no.177

(.........) ... 15 <<I<<I / Hsien early Zhou vessel inscription from Feng

24 ::<:¤¤ ... 16 ::<:?? / Ting wessel insciption (1th and 2th line didn't come out right)

23 :I< ... 17 :I< / P'an vessel inscription

25 +#<<<+ ... 18 +#<<<+ / with text

16 II>:I> ... 19 II>:I> / Chao written upright and divinatotry graph written upside down. With text.

(.........) ... 20 +<+<+< / with text

22 <<< ... 21 <<< / with text

21 +z: ... 22 +z: / with text

20 :zI ... 23 :zI / with text

17 z:< ... 24 z:< / with text

19 +:<<<< ... 25 +:<<<< / At the end of Chung ting vessel
19 :+<<<< ... 26 :+<<<< / At the end of Chung ting vessel

(.........) ... 27 <<II<I / P'an wessel inscription

32 z+<:+I ... 28 z+<:++ / pottery mold of a chüeh vessel

31 I+<+:< ... 29 I+<+:< / pottery mold of a chüeh vessel

(.........) ... 30 <++III / Zhou jade tiger

14 I<I ... 31 I<I / early Zhou arrow-head from Chang-chia-p'o

13 xI¤ ... 32 xII / early Zhou arrow-head from Chang-chia-p'o

The following little scheme tells about the distribution of numbers. E.g. in bronze-ware are odd numbers either 1 OR 7. Bones have vertical 5(#) and 7(+) or new 5(x) and 1(I). Horisontal 5(z) occurs with 7(+).

Bronze ...... Bones ....... Yüan's ........ Bones

15 <<I<<I ... 01 <:IIxI ... 10 +:<+<< ... 06 :<<#:+
16 ::<:?? .... 02 xII<:I ... 11 +<<+I: ... 07 +#+<<<
19 II>:I> .... 03 <<:II< .. 12 ?<<++I .... 08 +:+<+<
20 +<+<+< .. 04 <I<<<I .. 13 <<++I;
25 +:<<<< .. 05 II<III .... 14 +<:<+<
26 :+<<<<
27 <<II<I

28 z+<:++ ................. 09 :+:+:z .... 18 +#<<<+
29 I+<+:<
30 <++III

I think that ONLY FOUR of the numbers 1-5-6-7-8 were used at the same time depending of the divination method.
The two even numbers 6 and 8 together with two odd numbers either 1-5, 1-7 or 5-7

I have three additional comments to three of the Chang Cheng-Lang points of view:

3. A Conjectural Schema of Yarrow Stalk Divination.
The Chou Yi chapter Hsi chuan says: "The number of the total is fifty. Of these, forty-nine are used." Forever and always one piece of the total stalk count was set aside without any rational basis whatever.

I think that the rational basis was an ancient traditional way of counting a year. A year is 99 phases of the moon. First one counts 50, removes 1, and then one counts the remaining 49.

5. A Tentative Investigation of the Lien-shan.
The Chou Yi has been continuously transmitted to the present day, but the line of the Lien-shan and the Kuei-tsang has long been broken. Surviving fragments of the Kuei-tsang are still rather numerous, and they are of relatively early date. On the other hand, as there have been many forged texts of the Lien-shan since Sui and T'ang times, the surviving fragments are quite unreliable.
The important difference of these three systems was that in each the names of the hexagrams were different.

I think that the important difference is, that Lien-shan and Kuei-tsang are numerology based oracles, while Yi Jing is a text based oracle. I think that it's hard to claim, that the main difference between e.g. Lien-shan and Yi Jing is the names of the hexagrams, when the names of the Lien-shan oracle haven't survived?

8. Further Remarks on the Bronze Hexagrams
(18) The inscription on the lid and on the vessel both have the characters chao chung. Chao is a place name and represents the clan-emblem held originally by the person for whom the vessel was made; chun was added subsequently ... +#<<<+ is a town name, and also a clan emblem.

I think that the inscription of this bronze vessel is very important. To me it looks like, that the Yi Jing text was already written when the +#<<<+ signs were written. Hexagram 42.5 is definitely one of the most auspicious answers of Yi Jing and a great answer to a question like "shall we establish our new settlement here?".
The signs # ( old 5 I><I ) and : (8) must have been the changing lines of this divination system, while + (7) and < (6) were the steady lines. This notification was probably changed, when the standard edition to all the vasal Lords was made, but this inscription indicate, that the Yi Jing line texts was written before the insciption of this vessel.

Hi, Lianshan. Yes, I thought you would have some fun with the article.

L

Hi Sparhawk. Yes, it's really great fun to me reading Chang Cheng-lang, because I have exactly the same passion of ancient China as he had. I feel it while reading his thoughts. I esspecially enjoyed reading how he experimented with different stalk divination methods. I don't think that such activities were very popular seen from a government point of view at the time

He failed like many others before him. I think it was because he didn't realize, that the archaeological founds of the numerical signs tell, that Yi Jing differs in being a non-numerological oracle. Why? Because Heaven is number three and Earth number two. It's against math to put three before two in the order of the hexagrams, so by logic the Zhou Yi had to be made non-numerologic. That's why the Wen Wang order of the hexagrams is made of pairs and not in their binary numerical order. That's why the 1 lines are named "nine" and the 8 lines are named "six".

I think that the last mentioned was "invented" by the Duke of Zhou and general Lü Shang. These two men were the constructors of the Zhou feudal ruling system of 55 feudal Lords in the first years of the new dynasty. The feudal Lords were given bronze vessels as symbols of power, but back in those times they too needed a divination manual to rule!

"Lately I have been looking into the theory that while the Zhou actually lived to the west of the Shang, there was an oxbow lake that made the geographical place for the Zhou king to make his elaborate ox sacrifice actually in the east. They were allies in the war against the Huns."
I did not explain that in WB Hexagram 63 "the eastern neighbor" with his elaborate sacrifice for the victory over the Huns has always been puzzling as the Zhou lived to the west of the Shang, but only the zhou were noted for their elaborate ox sacrifices, for example the Son of heaven alone could sacrifice an ox of one color only and there was a strict hierarchy as to what type ox different ranks could sacrifice.

Lienshan, you amaze me with your math. Andreas assures me that he sees intuitionally, if that is a word, into numbers, I a mere mortal, have to be content with clairvoyance of the most ordinary sort and numbers seem to interfere with that. Years ago I tried to write Chang but one of his friends, a prof in AU wrote me that Chang was at least 90 when he delivered his paper on Tomb 5 found in Sources of Shang Archeology, edited by the late KC Chang. I still go with the idea that the Yi was an oral tradition for 2,000 years before it was written down, although obviously line statements were written by the Shang, Zhou, and Han, etc. I think of the Yi as having shamanic origins mostly but then I would rather howl at the moon than do long division. Mary

Well, I just lost my entire reply somehow. I just wanted to elaborate that in hex 63 a line statement in WB mentions the elaborate ox sacrifice of the 'eastern neighbor' for the victory over the Huns. This has always been puzzling as the Zhou were known to have originally settled to the West of the Zhou although eventually it seems that by the time of their dynasty they lived on almost all sides of the Shang. Only the Zhou had the elaborate ox sacrifice which was strictly observed and so the strict protocols of ox sacrifice went down the ranks of the nobility.

Lienshan, I think Luis and I both share this passion, although I also study pre history, especially the shamanic Altai and Buddhist contributions to the Yi. Andreas assures me that numbers can help intuition and mysticism and I take him at his word. As for me, I would howl at the moon than do long division or look for sequence (you see, the eye is holy to Li). Cheers, Mary

Oh, now I have said the same thing twice, sorry. I did want to mention that according to Needham, the tzu fiefdom was the last and 9th province taken into the Shang Dynasty by its founder. Thereafter, the king had 9 tings, one for each province which would have been buried with him. The head of each province would have been buried with one ting only. thereafter you see later dynasties attempting to keep this number 9 in various ways. The Fu Tzu and consort of Wu Ting whose grave had not been disturbed was found with one Ting in her grave and also 5 tigers (the Shang were Tiger braves), the white tiger was the Shang sign for war. Many war implements in her grave show a person, presumably her, with her head being held in the jaws of two tigers. I do not know of any woman's grave having weapons but then it is known that she participated in the war. Although it is said she was a warrior, it is likely she helped create alliances and raised armies from other fiefdoms.

Hi midaughter. I know your research of Fu Tzu and have some comments, that might inspire your further research:

The Shang king Wuding made a campaign against the Huns (the Gui Fang) and the Shang army of 13.000 men was supported by local Zhou soldiers. Fu Tzu was the stalk diviner of the army. She could read the divination manual. Tortoise divination was not allowed to others than the Shang court. The campaign was a success. Fu Tzu made some great divinations that made her famous and wife of the extreme superstituous king Wuding. I agree, that hexagram 63 is about the campaign. The text replaced the original text of the Shang stalk divination manual.

When the Duke of Zhou rewrote the line-statesments of the Zhouyi, then he choose to keep most of the original Fu Tzu text, because it was about a Zhou victory, but he changed the text of the 5th line. He wanted to underline, that what was considered a great victory by the Shangs, was only considered a small victory by the Zhou. His readers were Zhou feudal Lords. That's why he choose to use the picture of an ox sacrifice, because this was a great sacrifice seen from a Zhou reader's point of view.

I too have some comments to your altai shamanic research:

The altai shamanism is divided in two branches; the western turk Tengri-shamnism and the eastern mongol Tengri-shamanism. The first have 17 gods and the last has 99 gods. 99 is a year counted by phases of the moon. First you count 50, then you remove 1 and then you count the remaining 49

The western altai shamanism is in fact influenced by the Yi ... I give you the story in very short headlines:

Paper was invented 2-300 AD and the old books of bamboo slips were sometimes used as playing cards. Esspecially tatar traders were exited and this way the Yi was spread to the Kipchacks living on the Kirgisian steppes. They are today known as the first Mamluk slave soldiers and they too were famous of their breeding of hawks for hunting. One of their great customers was Frederick II and his hawk-hunting castle Castel del Monde is printed on the 1 euro lire coin

what fun! and thanks for the info. I was wondering for your source that says the Zhou re-wrote the part about the Shang sacrifice. In reading WB in which 2 diviners actually give two interpretations of Hexagram 63 (although there is the usual idea that Wilhelm added on interpretation later and should not have) and really speculate on what the Fu word meant, you know a woman's curtain while traveling. Since the Fu was within the trigram of Han, I theorized that the Fu was this Fu Tzu who was ambushed at a river crossing. Her getting out of danger was a result of using the 'Middle Way," more predominately a buddhist concept that appears in WB during Han times. This is how I dated the writing of these two diviners. Bradford did not know of them although their names are given in the text. I also love the idea of the simple sacrifice of a pig-a ritual said to have come down from Neolithic times. It must have brought back grand memories, what a fine gesture. I also have many prognostications of Wu Ting and done by him it says, concerning various divinations concerning her pregnancies, etc. These were found in Tomb 5, but alas the significant divinations were buried with the king.
I really think we should say Wu Ting because there is another Shang King known as Wu Ding who comes not very much later so its confusing.
Many secret Altai rituals are incorporated into Tibetan Buddhism. Manjushri Buddha Pure Land is located in Fu Hsi's geographical area. In fact, Fu Hsi is said to be an emanation of Manjushri . Manjushri also appeared to Fu Hsi as the tortoise with the Pa Qua on his shell together with the trigrams, attached. I have a picture of this sacred tortoise in my photos section. the Altai (linguistically related to the Manchu) are known for drinking blood from the skulls of their enemies. This has evolved into a sacred ceremony today where the supplicant offers to drink his own blood from his own skull to the assembled deities as a show of his lack of fear of death. I have done this. There is also the matter of 'burnt offerings' a fire ritual in which burnt sesame seeds are offered. However, I am almost certain the offering is really burnt marijuana seeds. Divination is done at this time but I think I would not be allowed to speak of this. Marshall has spoken of a Taoist sect that also has similar rituals concerning marijuana.:bows:

Bigger Pic of the Manjushri Tortoise

Of course the Lo Shu is on its back.

midaughter said:

I was wondering for your source that says the Zhou re-wrote the part about the Shang sacrifice.

Click to expand...

There is no such source. The origin of the Zhouyi is like a puzzle and the article of Chang Cheng-lang shown in this tread is one of the important pieces of the puzzle. He theorize from the archaeological founds, that the origin of the hexagram lines was made of numbers. If so, then the origin of the Zhouyi hexagrams was numerology, but Zhouyi is not numerology. A broken line is named six in the line judgements but have the shape of number eight. A whole line is named nine in the line judgements but have the shape of number one. The Zhouyi order of the 64 hexagrams is pairs and not numerical.

The Duke of Zhou wrote the line judgements. That's a fact in my universe untill someone can prove that he didn't. But did he use the Shang stalk divination manual as a manuscript? I think that a study of hexagram 63 texts might tell if or not? To me it looks like the story of the successfull Shang-Zhou campaign against the "huns" back in Wu Ting times. The only line that looks rewritten to me is line five and my source is your information of the sacrifice rituals. I think, that your oxbow-lake theory is a blind road. The text of the line is not historical correct but makes sense, when it is read from a Zhou Lord's point of view.

Both the Mawangdui silk Yi and the Fuyang bamboo Yi were found in the tombs of local rulers. Confucius studied the ancient books when visiting different courts. To me it looks obvious, that the Zhouyi was a ruler's divination manual and a status symbol like the bronze vessels. That's why I don't connect the Zhouyi book with altai-shamanism. The yarrow stalk divination method is shamanic of origin but to me this study is another story

midaughter said:

I also have many prognostications of Wu Ting and done by him it says, concerning various divinations concerning her pregnancies, etc. These were found in Tomb 5, but alas the significant divinations were buried with the king.
I really think we should say Wu Ting because there is another Shang King known as Wu Ding who comes not very much later so its confusing.

Click to expand...

Wu Ting is ok with me and Fu Tzu instead of Fu Hao? I think it was a great marriage

Have you ever considered, that she might be the author of Kuei Ts'ang, the stalk divination manual of the Shang?

The exavacations of the Xia capitol Erlitou have only recorded 24 pictographs, so the legendary Lien Shan "Book" of Changes might have been the shamanic oral tradition that you are referring to? The bodies exavacated in the tombs of Erlitou are described as shamans. The Xia dynasty ended about 1550 BC and Wu Ting ruled about 1200 BC. His preferred oracle was divination of tortoise plastrons and maybe Fu Tzu was the stalk divination expert of that time? Some scholars theorize, that stalks sometimes were used before or after, in connection with a Shang tortoise divination. We all know that the tortoise divinations were recorded and kept in a "library". How did they record and keep the stalk divinations?

Is there anything in your Fu Tzu research that relate to such a "wild" theory?

partial reply re: Lianshuan

This will take a bit of time here, so hold on. Probably not in the order of your missive. We can date the Fu Tzu of Wu Ting's era to 1281-1222 BC (although after this date was given,* the Chinese have re-dated all the dynasties. I guess you already know that that the first Shang King Tang, attemped to outlaw divination in this newly conquered province where the fiefdom of Tzu was located. He found that to be impossible and later brought the leader of the clan (and made the clan a shih-an hereditary court clan is servide to the king). This Fu Tzu was known before the discovery of Tomb 5. I have never seen anything about this except in Needham, although Eva writes of a mythical clan of the many fu who had powers over animals, etc. and later Cleary, who gives no cite at all says that this clan of woman who were located I think on the Li river, where thd Silk Road passed through and these woman while posing as venders actually taught the tantric acts of sexual love thus becoming immortalized as consorts to various deities. There seem to be many pictures of them sacrificing to the ancestors of the Fu Tzu lineage. They definitely had a clan sign which appears to be a three-pronged fork curved to the left is my guess

you wrote:
The exavacations of the Xia capitol Erlitou have only recorded 24 pictographs, so the legendary Lien Shan "Book" of Changes might have been the shamanic oral tradition that you are referring to? Actually what I am referring to is that the secrets of Chi were brought to earth by holy neings called nagas to the Kun Lun Shan, mountains located in the north west of China, sacred to Taoist and Buddhist as well. It is said in tradition that human kind at one time knew the secrets but had forgotten them. There was no writing but it was memorized and passed down. The square and the circle are the earliest symbolic elements. Ni says that the first use of the Yi was internal alchemy/immortality. 6,000 years ago we know there was bone and shell divination ,especially bone so it would be natural that the Yi would be incorporated into this system. Since we are in northeast and to the far northeast, the shang were not involved at this time but the Zhou were and so were many, many other small tribes and clans. This area along the Yellow River as it loops towards Mongolia was a fabulously fertile loess plain that became over crossded causing the Zhou to migrate to the middle reaches of the Yellow River to the west of the Shang . I have read (but probably will never find it again) that the Zhou did not have a formal written system until they came into contact with the Shang. The Zhou throughout much of their history looked up to the Shang , considering them very advanced, sophisticated, etc. By this time the Erhlitou and intermngled with the Shang. In fact, the argument is nearly settled that the Erhlitou were really the Xia. So we have the Zhou coming to an area of a culture called Shang but it included these other clans/tribes. BTW, the Shang were called the Sung (pronounced Soong) by the Zhou. Nao Lauxian was of the Sung lineage. It appears to me that there is a good argument to be made that WB in especially Book III of the Commentaries we have the Lienshaun hiding in plain sight. I attach here a pic that has been entitled 'Shang Scholars Collating Ancient Texts" but look at the center of the pic and there is woman holding up a flame in a lantern. Is this saying that here are the ancient texts and that the flame is Li, the hexagram of the ancient women diviners?







*Shang C.1600-C.1100 B.C. by the Chinese Chronology Project

midaughter said:

They definitely had a clan sign which appears to be a three-pronged fork curved to the left is my guess.

Click to expand...

Hi midaughter. Your mentioning a three-pronged fork as a Fu clan sign may relate to the exavacations of Jiahu? In the news it was announced: "The next day, archaeologists opened Grave M344, and saw an adult male whose head was missing. Where his head would have been were eight sets of tortoise shells and one fork-shaped bone artifact." Fork-shaped artifacts were too found in other graves. Details are described in an article from the Antiquities Journal 2003:

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=140893

This will take a bit of time here, so hold on. Probably not in the order of your missive. We can date the Fu Tzu of Wu Ting's era to 1281-1222 BC (although after this date was given,* the Chinese have re-dated all the dynasties. I guess you already know that that the first Shang King Tang, attemped to outlaw divination in this newly conquered province where the fiefdom of Tzu was located. He found that to be impossible and later brought the leader of the clan (and made the clan a shih-an hereditary court clan is servide to the king). This first Fu Tzu, c. 1600 BC was known before the discovery of Tomb 5. I have never seen anything about this except in Needham, although Eva writes of a mythical clan of the many fu who had powers over animals, etc. and later Cleary, who gives no cite at all says that this clan of woman who were located I think on the Loi river, where thd Silk Road passed through and these woman while posing as venders actually taught the tantric acts of sexual love thus becoming immortalized as consorts to various deities. There seem to be many pictures of them sacrificing to the ancestors of the Fu Tzu lineage. They definitely had a clan sign which appears to be a three-pronged fork curved to the left is my guess. attached, probably from the first Fu Tzu around 1600 BC.

you wrote:
The exavacations of the Xia capitol Erlitou have only recorded 24 pictographs, so the legendary Lien Shan "Book" of Changes might have been the shamanic oral tradition that you are referring to? Actually what I am referring to is that the secrets of Chi were brought to earth by holy beings called nagas to the Kun Lun Shan, mountains located in the north west of China, sacred to Taoist and Buddhist as well. It is said in tradition that human kind at one time knew the secrets but had forgotten them. There was no writing but it was memorized and passed down. The square and the circle are the earliest symbolic elements. Ni says that the first use of the Yi was internal alchemy/immortality. 6,000 years ago we know there was bone and shell divination ,especially bone was already in use, so it would be natural that the Yi would be incorporated into this system.

Since we are in northeast and to the far northeast, the shang were not involved at this time but the Zhou were and so were many, many other small tribes and clans. This area along the Yellow River as it loops towards Mongolia was a fabulously fertile loess plain that became over crossed causing the Zhou to migrate to the middle reaches of the Yellow River to the west of the Shang . I have read (but probably will never find it again) that the Zhou did not have a formal written system until they came into contact with the Shang. The Zhou throughout much of their history looked up to the Shang , considering them very advanced, sophisticated, etc. By this time the Erhlitou and intermngled with the Shang. In fact, the argument is nearly settled that the Erhlitou were really the Xia. So we have the Zhou coming to an area of a culture called Shang but it included these other clans/tribes. BTW, the Shang were called the Sung (pronounced Soong) by the Zhou and foreverafter. Nao Lauxian was of the Sung lineage. It appears to me that there is a good argument to be made that WB in especially Book III of the Commentaries we have, at least in part the Lienshaun and Guicang hiding in plain sight. I attach here a pic that has been entitled 'Shang Scholars Collating Ancient Texts" but look at the center of the pic and there is woman holding up a flame in a lantern. Is this saying that here are the ancient texts and that the flame is Li, the hexagram of the ancient women diviners?







*Shang C.1600-C.1100 B.C. by the Chinese Chronology Project

2nd part

Lest I omit from this multi cultural mix, we should not forget the divining Lung Shan, called a regional Neolithic trading empire stretching from at least Anyang, the early Shang capital to the coast and south to the Yangtze River. The Lung shan were bone diviners, sculpamancy, and, according to Rutt, had the first specialized clan of diviners. who knows? Thee are some interesting things about them: some Chinese hydroulic engineers think there was a violent earthquake during this period in history that shifted the lower reaches of the Yellow River and turned it to the north. I would love to see sattelite (spelling) images of the ancient beds of this river. No doubt, much of the early cultures are buried under alluvial soil. Third, the Lung Shan with their ties to the mouth of the Yellow River, almost certainly have something to do with the salt water Hawksbill Turtle being sacred to the Yi, also in WB Book III.


Its not really accurate to she these time a dynastic, as the feudal system of clans, fiefdoms, tribes had the balance of power here. Yet Anyang was the Rome of its day and many groups would be drawn there. The writing skill came to its highest at this time and had a great effect in uniting this early polity. The Shang originally were traders of salt according to their clan sign, perhaps this need to guard this valuable commodity was the beginning of their military prowess. Certainly, with the Erhlikang(the mix of Shang and Erhlitou did a brisk trade in weaponry and farm implements with their sophisticated bronze skills, and no doubt there was much interrmarriage.'

The Zhou, who came later used fresh water plastrons and forever regarded it as superior to stalk. They used plastron divinationn to decide where to settle when they migrated from the northwestern plateau, which I think was called Dadiwan, or at least of section of it was called that. The Fu Tzu and King of all times of early Shang history used plastrons exclusivey. Neither one ever wrote down the prognostication, the shih of clan scribes did that and then smeared the plastron with vermillion. Its really possible that scribes wrote down the plastron prognostication on bamboo slips for dissemination for such uses as gifts or for teaching purposes. Even in this time period, plastrons (they only used females) were in short supply and were imported as far south as Burma. Neither can one pass around a royal divination all around the place.

The Zhou always thought that shell was superior to bamboo slips. Their saying "yarrow stalk is short whereas turtle shell is long." Sometimes they divined using both but shell was always the controlling divination. I don't see the Duke of Zhou rewriting Hexagram 63 as the line about the neighbor with his elaborate oz sacrifice is a critcism of the Zhou. Wang Bi explains that the neighbor to the East who slaughters an ox is not as timely as the neighbor in the West who has more virtue. He goes on to say that that is why a sacrifice of even simple vegetation can be offered by the virtuous to the gods. It doesn't look like the Duke overwrote as Wang Bi coming much later. It just who is the 'eastern neighbor?' It can't be the Shang as they sacrificed a pig. ONLY the Zhou had the elaborate Ox sacrifice. So obviouly this is Shang writing criticizing the Zhou. attached, the sacrifice done by shang, Fu Tzu consisting of a pig and jaws of a pig

With all that said, I point again to Book III of the WB Commentaries. There are many, many writings there not found in the Zhouyi. For example, found in the trigram of LI in the Hexagram of Tui, it is said 'Li is war and weapons." Have you seen that anywhere else? In the trigram of Tui in the Hexagram of Li, it says" Tui stands in the West with the white Tiger." For this and other reasons I think the manuscripts of Lao Nauxian of the Sung represent a separate transmission of the early written Yi, at least in part, including both at least parts of the Guicang and the Lienshan, both of which I associate more with the Xia-Erhlitou and shang . The Erlitou knew of the naga myth . I base this one their emphasis on dragons = a popular way to describe this really highly secret myth. Of course there are Zhou contributions are there as well. Remember the Duke of Zhou spent his young adulthood in the shang Court . I think we can reasonably assume he was studying all facets of the Yi.. he may have had written some line statements and/or copied them down to take with him back to his home.

I think it unlikely that he caused to have overwritten the parts of Hexagram 63, the Wu Ting hexagram, in the phrase about the 'Eastern Neighbor," because they remain in the official text.I honestly think he had far too much respect for his shang mentors to change the text in such a self-serving way. But somehow the parts of how to interpret the 'fu' character added to the text during the Han period (?)were lost in both the early texts and the Zhouyi. Was an oracle bone with the Fu characher had been saved by the diviner clan that, some of whose members had ties with were ancient with the Shang now called Sung? Apparently, the story of the Fu Tzu and her career was not considered by the 'men of Han.' Ithink we are now at least 2,000 years later.

I also further base this on the upheavals of the Warring States period where it seems that the Sung were able to stay alive as a small City-State, no mean accomplishment considering that the majority of such states were annexed to the larger militaristic, and sometime barbarian states. I think their separate shell and manuscripts of the Yi survived within their own city-state. They were never conquered nor sacked but for a time I think they made various alliances bringing them under the protection, I think, of the Chou.

I also note that is was the Sung were eagerly sought by the Han for their educated elites and the traveling educator or philosopher were sought after.and exercised a profound influence in bringing abut the close of this terrible era partially by disseminating the Confucian ethics of governing and having this doctrine officially accepted by the Han.


Also, I see alternate ways of conducting stalk divination such as dividing the piles of stalks into groups of 10, apparently done by separate entities in the outlying areas. I think its possible that stalk was much cheaper and convenient. The bamboo slip fragments you mention could have really come from anywhere. Simply, divination was performed by many, many groups using different methods and in the earliest times even before Mawangdui, etc. there were quite different prognostications, sequences, and divination methods.

midaughter said:

Of course there are Zhou contributions are there as well. Remember the Duke of Zhou spent his young adulthood in the shang Court . I think we can reasonably assume he was studying all facets of the Yi.. he may have had written some line statements and/or copied them down to take with him back to his home.

Click to expand...

Hi midaugther. It's very inspiring to read your comment

More biblographies of the Duke of Zhou describe his practice of both the tortoise and the stalk divination method, when he seized the power. He knew how to divine and he ruled as a king for seven years.

His father king Wen rewrote the judgements of stalk divination manual, so why shouldn't the Duke of Zhou rewrite the line judgements? The article of Chang Cheng-lang indicate the reason why: The lines of the Shang (Fu Hao) stalk divination manual was made of four numbers (5-6-7-8) producing 4x4x4x4x4x4 = 4096 answers. Copying such a BIG divination manual to the many new Lords of Zhou courts was almost unrealistic. The Zhouyi is a far more handy book with 64x6 = 384 answers. The problem is as we all know when receiving more changing lines in an answer, but the size..

I think that the Duke of Zhou invented the Zhouyi when he retired and king Cheng was old enough to rule. He used his father king Wen's ideas of a non-numerological stalk divination manual based on images in pairs with corresponding texts. An archaeological found later than the Chang Sheng-lang article shows hexagrams 61-62-63-64 in the king Wen order on a pottery from western Zhou. I think that this found indicate, that the Zhouyi was written in western Zhou time, and why not by the Duke of Zhou? He knew the ancient line texts and could choose those of them that fitted his father Wen's names of the hexagrams and rewrite some of them into the Zhou Mandate of Heaven terminology.

......................................................................................

I've made a theoretical reconstruction of the Shang (Fu Hao) divination manual named Kuei Ts'ang to show what king Wen changed. I think that it's important to the understanding of the difference between the Shang and the Zhou stalk divination manuals. The reconstruction is based on the Shuo Kua (8th wing) text: "To Heaven they assigned the number three, to Earth the number two, and from these they computed the other numbers."

The Kuei Ts'ang order of the 64 hexagrams using < = even (6) and + = odd (7) according to the distribution of numbers mentioned in the article of Chang Cheng-lang:

<<<++< <<<<+< <<<+<< <<<<<< (2)
+++<<+ ++++<+ +++<++ ++++++ (3)
+<<++< +<<<+< +<<+<< +<<<<< (4)
<++<<+ <+++<+ <++<++ <+++++ (5)
<+<++< <+<<+< <+<+<< <+<<<< (6)
+<+<<+ +<++<+ +<+<++ +<++++ (7)
++<++< ++<<+< ++<+<< ++<<<< etc.
<<+<<+ <<++<+ <<+<++ <<++++
<<+++< <<+<+< <<++<< <<+<<<
++<<<+ ++<+<+ ++<<++ ++<+++
+<+++< +<+<+< +<++<< +<+<<<
<+<<<+ <+<+<+ <+<<++ <+<+++
<++++< <++<+< <+++<< <++<<<
+<<<<+ +<<+<+ +<<<++ +<<+++
+++++< +++<+< ++++<< +++<<<
<<<<<+ <<<+<+ <<<<++ <<<+++

50-65 . 34-49 . 18-33 . 2-17

The order shows horisontal from left to right the Fu Shi order of the trigrams below:
++< wind <+< water +<< mountain <<< earth <<+ thunder +<+ fire <++ lake +++ heaven

The order shows vertical from right to left the hexagrams in numerical order from 2 to 65
<<<<<< Earth (2) ++++++ Heaven (3) etc. to <<<<<+ The Hidden (65).

Kuei Ts'ang means Reverting to the Hidden. The Hidden was in more ancient cultures e.g. Egypt the name of Thunder.

Each "hexagram" of six numbers is counted this way:

1th = 0 or 2 / 2th = 0 or 4 / 3th = 0 or 8 / 4th = 0 or 16 / 5th = 0 or 32 / 6th: even = 2 and odd = 3

The first five numbers have value 0 if equal (even or odd) to the last (6th) number. Some examples:
<<<<<< (0-0-0-0-0-2=2) ++++++ (0-0-0-0-0-3=3) <+<+<+ (2-0-8-0-32-3=45) +<+<+< (2-0-8-0-32-2=44)
<<++<< (0-0-8-16-0-2=26) <<++<+ (2-4-0-0-32-3=41) +++++< (2-4-8-16-32-2=64) <<<<<+ (2-4-8-16-32-3=65)

Better Tomb 5 Simple Sacrifice Rubbings

Not yet finished reading your comments, but a better pic of the tomb 5 rubbings presumably of the simple sacrifice

I just read this in a little chinese article about Fu Hao:

The Zhou Dynsty that succeeded the Shang was set up on a feudal patriarchal clan system under which women's status was greatly reduced. Women who had taken part in politics and military affairs during the Shang Dynasty were snubbed as rebels or "hens reporting the dawn".

http://www.womenofchina.cn/people/women_in_history/1405.jsp

Actually the Inner Court was still controlled by women shih (hereditary clans) but they of the king's own clan. (of course this marks a lowering of status of women but the Warring States period is really more influential I think) I will look up in the Cambridge History to see who was given the fiefdom of Tzu but no doubt the Fu Tzu woman, indeed the entire clan, were quite wealthy and remained influential. And no doubt they held onto their own divinations, shell and bamboo slip. I look at the axes buried in her grave with her logo (attached) and think this industry of bronze making by the early Shang must have certainly continued as a source of wealth. )This is actually why I think WB III has the earlier divinations that do not appear the Zhouyi.Remember, around this time Lao Tzu appears as an archivist in the Zhou court and 'tzu' is an honorific in the Zhou court meaning an especially respected learned person. The Shang nobility were always present at Zhou court functions and continued their own sacrifices to their particular ancestors. This is a prime reason that I continue to emphasize that a dynastic analysis of history at this point is time is not useful. The Zhou also gradually cut back on the powers of diviners in their own court and limited their questions to strictly limited areas.

I recently posted a Tzu clan sign (at least that what I think) with only two prongs to the left. I colorized it and the 3rd prong, as I remember was faintly there but I was attempting to show various ways the old rubbing could have looked. This 3 prong sign in this one (attached) goes to the right. I don't think is backwards because the supplicant in the middle lower part faces the ancestor on the left.

Your mentioning a three-pronged fork as a Fu clan sign may relate to the exavacations of Jiahu? I don't know but will look it up.

Re: Jiahu, site of early shang script (they think) I have written an article somewhere on this but I think the clan sign and writing idea is one for squigglies (character analyzers) no offense intended. I have looked at BC/AD Rock art which is in my photos section and do not see any such clan sign. But here are a few others:

Re-writing Hexagram 63 in light of Tomb 5

The tradfitional commentary in Hexagram 63 in being written by two diviners about 1,000 years later. They basically have helped with the interpretation by seeing that the 'fu' character, which in the way the Chinese write, could mean many things. It is useful that by them reading the entire divination they are of the impression that the discussion concerns a woman. (WB throughout)

63:1
He brakes his wheels.
He get his tail in the water.
The attack is from behind.

I agree, especially since The primary trigram Li, which is the Middle Daughter has a woman as its symbol. Li is the lower trigram meaning woman and woman's curtain according to the traditional commentary.

My interpretation:
It is a reference to the Fu Tzu herself, not a woman's curtain or veil. It may be that the Fu Tzu herself had a narrow escapoe and/or some of her escort party are taken captive.

63:2
Traditional Commentary
The second line is the beginning of the trigram Kan. Kan means wheel and wagon or chariot. Kan also means thieves therefore thieves steal the curtain of the woman's carriage and she is exposed to attack. {probably not thieves but the enemy}

My interpretation:
The Fu Tzu's party is ambushed from behind at a river crossing.Kan especially means ambush at a river crossing.



63:3

Traditional Commentary:

Do not run after the curtain; on the seventh day you will get it as a result of the middle way. She remains true to her husband (the fifth line) and her veil is returned.

My interpretation:
Li indicates that it is a woman traveling. The trigram Li indicates divination was performed as to what course to follow. The Fu Tzu herself was attacked. She is in an exposed position. In accordance with holding back firmly as was divined, she refuses to counterattack. They remain hidden. The middle way is a reference to mystical practices common to both Buddhism and Taoism and beyond the scope of this article but it would indicate that whatever was stolen is returned. The reference to 7 days could merely mean a cycle of time-all change is in cycles of 6 and on the 7th comes return.

Nine in third place:
The Illustrious Ancestor
Disciplines the Devil's Country (the Huns)
After three years he conquers it. This is exhausting.

My Comments:

The third line refers to her husband, Wu Ting and the Fu Tzu are both discussed in the the fifth line.(Wu TIng) was often called the Illustrous Ancestor.

63:4

1)Six in the fourth place:
The finest clothes turn to rags.
Be careful all day long. There is cause for doubt. {well, the situation looks precarious)

2)Cheng Tzu gives an alternate explanation: It is the image of a boat but there are holes for plugging them up.

The Fu Tzu escapes in a leaky old boat. She is disguised in rags. The rags have to be used to plug up holes in the boat. They hide in a secret place.

63:5
Nine in the fifth place:
The neighbor in the east (the Zhou) who slaughters an ox
Does not attain as much real happiness
As the neighbor in the west (the Shang)
With his small offering of the pig
Good fortune in great measure.

My comment:

The Fu Tzu determines the a simple sacrifice made for the victory over the demon-lands is appropriate because the offering comes from the heart and "god looks into the heart." Neolithic offering of a pig and a pig's jaws were on of the oldest ceremonies of her clan and no doubt the other tribes and clans. The usual sacrifice would have been a blood sacrifice of captives.

63:6 Is very interesting because the traveling party escapes in the leaky boat in their disguises but remain in the greatest of danger danger, Kan is the upper outer trigram but Li the upper, inner trigram means foresight, perhaps divination enabling them to see the danger in time, take precautions before it occurs. "the taking thought occurs in the heart" what an interesting phrase. Does it mean clairvoyance? But the danger ahead in the upper, outer trigram of Kan is averted. What a great movie this would make!

midaughter said:

Your mentioning a three-pronged fork as a Fu clan sign may relate to the exavacations of Jiahu? I don't know but will look it up.

Click to expand...

I have searched but could not find a photo. I only found a drawing of the tortoise shells made before the photo was removed from the internet. It might be of your interest concerning pig sacrifices, because Orion and Taurus are drawn as a pig?

http://www.megaliths.net/china.htm

Hexagram 63 is to me describing how to handle a situation inside a situation and the symbol used is a river crossing.
I have these comments to your reading:

Line 1: The fox spirits encountered in tales and legends are usually females and appear as young, beautiful women. One of the most infamous fox spirits in Chinese mythology was Daji, the wife of the last Shang king. She is mentioned in the Zhou king Wu Wang's war-speech to the soldiers before the battle of Mueh. The fox spirit in Daji's body was later driven out by Lü Shang of Lù-shi clan, the first Prime Minister of the Zhou Dynasty.

Line 4: James Legge has this note: "The writer thinks of Kâo Žung, the sacrificial title of Wû Ting, one of the ablest sovereigns of the Shang dynasty (B. C. 1364-1324), who undertook an expedition against the barbarous hordes of the cold and bleak regions north of the Middle States."
Fu Hao led seven campaigns and the river crossing described might be from her own divination records?

Line 5: I found these five ox-sacrifice related translations of Shang oracle bone texts:

Shall we pray for harvest to Yue Peak with a burnt offering of three sheep and three pigs and the decapitation of three oxen?
Does this eclipse of the sun mean not disaster but approval? Should we report this eclipse of the sun to the [Yellow] River? Should we perhaps report this eclipse of the sun to Father Ding, sacrificing nine oxen?
Shall we pray for a good harvest to Wang-hai (a predynastic Shang ruler) by offering up a hound, a sheep, a pig, with a burnt offering of three sets of sheep and pig, and the slaughtering of nine oxen, three piglets, and three Qiang people?
Chi-mao/question/petition/millet/to/Shih-jen/three/oxen pairs. Most likely meaning: "On the day of Chi-mao the oracle was asked if, to get a good harvest of millet, three pairs of oxen should be sacrificed to Shih-jen?"
Question/question/purification/before/Ting/three/oxen pairs/Ch'iang/ten. Most likely meaning: "Should the purification before Tsu-ting be done with the sacrifice of three oxen pairs and ten men of Ch'iang?"

I have been looking at Chang Cheng Lang again which has the Fu Tzu as leading 4 battles in the field. Since I associate her career with Tui, Hexagram 58, it appears she was known for charismatic speeches, making the troops forget their fear of death and follow her into battle, the most well known are those into the four border regions: She participated in all the important wars in the Wu Ting era See Studies of Shang Archaeology, "A Description of the Fu Hao Oracle Bone Inscriptions." So I correct my earlier view that she was not a direct participant in these battles. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Yi-pk'ing Yen is the scholar who has studied the oracle bones and related these unknown facts about her life: She participated in many military campaigns for she is credited with defeating at least three armies raised against her. She served in the field, outwitted her opponents, avoided almost certain defeat, and emerged victorious with new lands and subjects. She participated in all of the important wars of the Wu Ting reign. She quelled internal dissent and created alliances. Chang Ping-Chuan, another scholar in this area,[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] says Consort Hao's army of 3,000 gathered, and 10,000 more men came, a great expedition. This refers to the campaign launched against the state of Qiang. The Fu Hao, therefore, rode at the head of an army of 13,000.

[/FONT]You wrote: Fu Hao led seven campaigns and the river crossing described might be from her own divination records? I would be inclined to agree, yes. further, [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]there is a good chance that many line statements parallel the life of this Fu Tzu. For example the upper trigram Tui in Hexagram 49 Revolution, line 5 speaks of the stripes of tigers being a highly visible distinct pattern that one can see from afar. The line speaks of a superior conqueror who is highly visible to the people and wins their support. Could this be speaking of her? This is just one example.[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Four copper battle axes engraved with her name have been recovered from her tomb. Axes symbolized military authority and power. The tiger motif was on the ax heads. What did this symbolize? We can speculate that the tiger gave her the power of death over her enemies or the tiger braves )the symbol for the Shang warriors were loyal to her.

If you look again at the axes that I attached before you will see a small motif at the bottom. This motif is the Fu Tzu clan sign.. I attached several motifs with the prongs of the fork being 2 and 3 and pointing either right or left because these motifs are representative of the clan sign variations. For a complete study of these Fu Tzu clan signs, see Noel Barnard, "The Study of Clan-Sign Inscriptions of Shang." He is a professor in Au I believe. [/FONT]

Now the Shang may have sacrificed oxen but it is not the Ox Sacrifice. This was an extremely complex and stratified sacrifice system leading up to the Zhou King who was the only one who could sacrifice an ox of one color only.

For a study of all the Fu Tzu (the word is funny because it is actually spelled Fu Hao but pronounced Mu Tzu which means that they are really trying to drive us crazy but later she has different titles) Nobles of this time started out with clan or the names of the fiefdoms, 'symbols of the land and polity." (of course serfs kept the names of the place where they were born.) Later when she married she was probably known as [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]: [/FONT]Hou T'u Mu or Ssu T'u Mu .[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Specifically, "hou" means tiger and "Mu," mother. Such a title was given when a woman married. Her matrilineal clan name was "hou," so it could mean the "tiger clan." (I am speculating) [/FONT]This honorific is prevalent in Tomb 5. During her life she was known as Consort Hao or Lady Jing to her inner circle. Otherwise, she was 'she who may not be be named" a sign of respect and reverence. She had posthumous titles as well

Its also quite possible that in Hexagram 63 she is affectionately called 'the little fox' who traverses the dangers of an ambush, a narrow escape, hiding in great danger and ultimately making it across to safety. So she is a little fox, not a big, bad evil fox.Hexagram 58 does also associate Tui with sorcery and death but also with giving joy and lifting up hearts against the fear of death. I cannot draw any conclusions about this.

Of course the fox moniker has many interpretations in many times and places in China, Siberia, and Japan.
you wrote:
One of the most infamous fox spirits in Chinese mythology was Daji, the wife of the last Shang king.

Yes, the notorious concubine.

In Chinese folklore the dualistic image of the fox as a good and an evil creature is the prevalent idea:
In China, as in Japan, the fox was often worshipped as a god and called upon for protection; and in both places, the belief in fox possession - the notion that a fox had the power to possess a human and was often responsible for human hysteria - was widespread. Accordingly, tales of the exorcism of foxes can be found in both places.

More notable, perhaps, are the many tales and legends of supernatural foxes in Japan and China. A common theme during the much later Qing were of a fox taking the form of a young woman in order to enchant, seduce and trick men. These tales were taken by Songling from oral sources throughout the country , and similar themes can be seen in countless other stories, dating back to the Tang period and earlier, though these tales were most popular during the Tang dynasty. In the Siberian and Ainu cultures, the fox was considered a supernatural animal that could bewitch people and cause harm, its passing being a bad omen, similar to much of Chinese fox belief.
We can even see in Siberian beliefs an origin for this dual nature. The Siberian legend of Altin Shagow tells of a hero shooting a yellow fox that crossed its path. The arrow cut the fox in two; the hind part sank to the ground, while the other half rose to the heavens and became a divine fox. Evidently, this divine fox was to inform its father of the shooting, who then destroyed Altin.
All this taken from 'A History of Fox Beliefs,' by Chris Azure.

I am trying to keep up with your comments so this addressed to an earlier comment: PS you are wearing me out.

You wrote: When the Duke of Zhou rewrote the line-statesments of the Zhouyi, then he choose to keep most of the original Fu Tzu text, because it was about a Zhou victory, but he changed the text of the 5th line. He wanted to underline, that what was considered a great victory by the Shangs, was only considered a small victory by the Zhou.
I write: I assume you are speculating or is there some authority for this idea?

If this were such a small victory why would the Zhou have their most elaborate and sacred Ox sacrifice?

When one literally reads the line that the Duke wrote the line statements in reminds me of a line in a recent movie of "First Wives" These former First Ladies have been divorced in favor of younger woman. One Wife says that she did all the cleaning and restoring of the China or something like that. Then this former wife pauses and says, "Well, I supervised!" And what does 'wrote them' mean anyway? We know he was at the Shang Court for many years. Maybe he was, at least in part, writing down the Shang inscriptions. or supervising of course and later this would be part of his administration of the Zhou kingdom attended to be archivists, scribes, and diviners. I do not intend to lessen the contributions of King Wen and Dan but they were not the only ones is all I am saying. Its pretty clear to me that much of Hexagram 63 was written during the Han (that is not to say that there were not Zhou or shang present in the Han Court making contributions to the Yi.

Confucius and his school has caused a lot of reverential treatment of the Zhou for his very reasonable agenda of trying to keep the country sane with the learned ranks at least having something virtuous to focus upon as an alternative to the horrific Warring States barbarity. Although we may disagree with Chairman Mao, the little red book of his his sayings has a similar intent. You may remember the Confucians went to far to say that the Zhou conquered the Shang without any bloodshed at all. Silly.