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Thread: The Luo Shu - the language of numbers

  1. #61


    This material may be of interest to your study, Robert.

    In and Outside the Square: The Sky and the Power of Belief in Ancient China

  2. #62

    Default The Enneagram and the Lo Shu

    Greetings pantherpanther,

    I appreciate your insightful comments on the Enneagram, thank-you for the discussion.

    I don't know what organic, practical experience they related to the magic squares.

    The practical, organic experience ancient humankind may have experienced from magic squares is rooted in the merging of their cosmological belief system with everyday life, which was considered a practical and traditional way to live.

    The Kabbalists used magic squares as amulets or talismans to offer protection or promote good fortune by invoking the spirits of the appropriate planet (Budge, Amulets and Talismans).

    The Gnostics and Christians had used magic squares on covers of their illuminated manuscripts (example: the Lindau Gospels); it seemed practical to use sacred math (magic squares) as a designation of a sacred text.

    And of course, the Shang Chinese incorporated the Luo Shu in their city planning and temple design just as the Han dynasty Chinese incorporated the Luo Shu into ceremonial artifacts such as the bi disc and TLV Bronze mirror (Cammann, Berglund, Schinz). Examples

    The numerology and cosmology of the Luo Shu was also incorporated into the language of the Chinese in order to establish political authority and influence (Mark Lewis, Writing and Authority in Early China and Lars Berglund, The Secret of the Luo Shu). Examples

    The Magic Squares gained more popularity in the west with the publication of Agrippa’s de Occulta Philosophia in 1533 as it was explained how to use the squares in Magic and Alchemy. Whether this was practical is open to question but it was popular at the time.

    With the Enneagram, the numbers may relate, but the diagram is a partial representation of different levels of energy (it contains three octaves and a process in which they can relate in different ways) which is not really shown in the 2D drawing- rather, it is indicated.

    Considering the Enneagram as a partial representation of different levels of energy is an approach that offers some intriguing possibilities. The 27x27 Magic Square may offer some insight as the numbers of the Enneagram (147/174; 258/285; 369/396) are to be found in pattern and linked to one another.

    This website refers to these “enneagram” numbers as the Solfeggio frequencies:


    I strongly believe there is a connection with the 27x27 Magic Square and music, or the three octaves. The correspondences of Magic Squares, Pythagorean Triplets, the Enneagram, the Pythagorean philosophy concerning the “music of the spheres” as well as the Pythagorean Comma seem connected and may come together in the 27x27 Magic Square.

    If we may take liberties to identify the Enneagram numbers as they appear in the 27x27 Magic Square, one can consider this a three dimensional model derived from a two dimensional magic square because any Magic Square in the Luo Shu format defines a three dimensional torus or doughnut shape.

    Therefore, the 27x27 Magic Square can be represented as a 3-D torus and the numbers will have a different relationship to one another than when arranged in a two dimensional matrix.

    If the enneagam numbers can be treated as frequencies and the numbers have a synergistic three dimensional toric relationship then perhaps a certain tonal or musical energy can be generated from the 27x27 torus.

    A true mathematical model may be there or perhaps only a part of one (and this may be intentional).To practice the Movements, as the multiplication 142857 etc., engages one in the process the E describes.

    The movements are attributed to Gurdjieff, who is responsible for bringing the Enneagram to the attention of the “West”. Gurdjieff may have had special insight into the Enneagram, but I am interested to know if his was a personal interpretation or are his movements a rediscovery of an ancient tradition?

    I propose the Ennegram was originally a purely mathematical (musical, energy…) relationship that later evolved into a popular westernized version that involved movements, transcendence, as well as psychological analysis.

    This Enneagram on the front piece of Athanasius Kircher’s Arithmologia (1655) is numerical (but not solely) and includes three triangles but I believe Kircher has the incorrect order of the triangles so as not to give away too much “secret knowledge”.

    In this art piece, Kircher makes a connection with the Luo Shu, the enneagram, the Pythagorean Theorem, and the tetractys. Note the Luo Shu is held by an angel in Heaven (consistent with Chinese mythology that the Luo Shu was presented to humankind from Heaven). The enneagram corresponds to the third eye and illumination while the Pythagorean Theorem rests on the terrestrial earth.

    Arithmologia is a text written in Latin concerning the first nine magic squares and alchemy (illumination), hence the connection with the Enneagram, the Luo Shu, and the Pythagorean Theorem.

    That can reveal an experience of Time and Space and laws which is verifiable but not expressible in words or the figure of the Enneagram. It couldn't be otherwise with any objective work of art, for example. A statue of a Buddha that was made by those who had conscious knowledge and placed that it, can raise the consciousness of an observer (as well as touch the being of all people, whatever their knowledge or development). A sacred Mass can do the same. Perhaps the Enneagram is not on the level of some sacred symbols, but was created as a bridge to the sacred for those who needed assistance in that direction.

    The Pythagoreans and the Chinese believed that number (the language gifted from the Gods) could explain everything and lead to evolution and prosperity. Magic square “cerebral exercises” can lead to many mathematically useful revelations that can serve to raise the consciousness of a practitioner just as a mandala, a statue of Buddha, or a sacred mass can raise/alter the consciousness.

    Perhaps Math was used as a bridge for “purposeful” transcendence and the vehicles were useful matrixes of numbers which were endless but none the less could serve as a guide for the evolution of humankind.

    What I am suggesting is it is not "complete" and was not intended to be. It was to be a guide, so to speak. I have at moments seen the symbol of the E as "alive," which leaves me in question as to its "completeness'." Is it sacred or objective? I don't know.

    Can Number (the Math of the Luo Shu and the Enneagram) not be sacred as well as objective? I believe the early Chinese and the Pythagoreans treated it as such (Marie Louise von Franz, Number and Time).

    The western mind may have difficulty understanding the practical use of Magic Squares in society.

    However, it is clear that the Magic Square played an integral role in early Chinese cosmology and must have been considered to have a practical use in order for the Luo Shu model to have been incorporated into religious, political, architectural, and linguistic aspects of early Chinese society for thousands of years.

    A sampling of Schulyer Cammann publications related to the above post:

    Magic Squares: The Evolution of the Magic Square in China.

    The Magic Square of Three

    Old Chinese Magic Squares.

    Islamic and Indian Magic Squares.

    Types of Symbols in Chinese Art.

    The Symbolism in Chinese Mirror Patterns.

    Chinese Mirrors and Chinese Civilizataion.

    A Rare T'ang Mirror.

    The "TLV" Pattern on Cosmic Mirrors of the Han Dynasty

    Lion and Grape Patterns on Chinese Bronze Mirrors

    Last edited by robertluoshu; March 19th, 2010 at 08:32 PM.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to robertluoshu For This Useful Post:

    frank_r (March 22nd, 2010), pantherpanther (March 19th, 2010)

  4. #63


    Very interesting thoughts and information to ponder

    Gurdjieff was perhaps a Master of sacred dance, and he used the figure of the Enneagram in teaching his Movements. G was not a professional musician in terms of Western music, and he composed much of his music for the Movements with de Hartmann who was well-known composer in his own right.

    After meetings with pupils G would often play on a simple harmonium. The music was deeply moving. His daughther Dushka Howarth made many recordings, some of which are now available. This was not simple folk music, yet I don't know how it would be analyzed by professionals. G seemed to know certain laws and how to express them to produce different emotions and states.

    (I recall once I was on an old London double- decker bus in Tehran. A blind boy, a flute player was seated at the front wall which separated the driver's cab from the passengers. I forgot
    where I was and when I woke up I had passed my stop by quite a distance.)

    Many Eastern teachings contain a whole teaching in one picture or symbol or work of art. Gurdjieff made it his aim to make Eastern wisdom intelligible to Western minds, and he often used language of western science. He taught many individual ideas separately or sequentially although they all were parts of a whole teaching (or system as Ouspensky called it). Over many years G taught his ideas using different words and images. The Moscow version that Ouspensky recorded in Search contains much that isn't in Beelzebub,which, is the most developed and authoritative version of G's final teaching. Both Search and Beelzebub are true to Gurdjieff's teaching but different expressions. If you compare the Table of Hydrogens, the Ray of Creation the Food Diagram and the Enneagram in Search, they are all about the same essential teaching, yet not exactly related to each other in the same way. And G used different material in Beelzebub.

  5. #64
    Join Date
    Sep 1971
    Square Root of New Jersey


    Hi Robert, et al,

    Here are some cool videos about the work of Lee Burton on the Luo Shu. He seems to take upon some of your ideas. Very interesting.

    The Luo Shu Fractality

    lo shu Magic Square solfege Matrix

    Field Lattice Matrix I Ching Fractal 27 Magic square continuum

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    frank_r (March 22nd, 2010)

  7. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 1971
    tilburg - Netherlands


    Quote Originally Posted by sparhawk View Post
    Hi Robert, et al,

    Here are some cool videos about the work of Lee Burton on the Luo Shu. He seems to take upon some of your ideas. Very interesting.

    The Luo Shu Fractality

    lo shu Magic Square solfege Matrix

    Field Lattice Matrix I Ching Fractal 27 Magic square continuum
    Thanks for showing these videos Luis very interesting to see, with nice music from Radiohead.But he is talking about the so called No Shu matrix, does anybody know and understand this No Shu diagrams?
    Cann anybod explain these to me?

    Thanks Frank

  8. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 1971
    tilburg - Netherlands


    Just found the explanation in the book Luis mentioned(http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frien...493#post109493) in this book he explains the Well. The No Shu.
    But if anybody has more information about the connection between these two, please.

    thanks Frank

  9. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 1971
    Square Root of New Jersey


    Quote Originally Posted by frank_r View Post
    But if anybody has more information about the connection between these two, please.

    thanks Frank
    Hi Frank,

    The "No Shu" name isn't Chinese, other than the Shu part; it is made up. It is a derivation of the Luo Shu, an invention perhaps, of the group of people Lee Burton is part of. Here is some information.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to sparhawk For This Useful Post:

    frank_r (March 23rd, 2010)

  11. #68

    Default The Nu Shu and No Shu

    I received an e- mail correspondence from Lee Burton last night:

    I had a glance at the link last night, the no shu and nu shu are just for identifying the families of 9, i read someone wasnt sure.
    So ill add it to the video's etc to be clear, sorry its i had to label them in the early work.
    as there were 3 sets of 9 = 27 unified.

    Also we have a thread on graham hancock.com

    its pretty long, but loads of questions and answers regarding all the magic squares matrices.
    There's also one on the science board in hancock worth a look.

    i recommend following the link to Paul Martyn smiths site, i ching math. All the same work.



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    frank_r (March 26th, 2010)

  13. #69

  14. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 1971
    tilburg - Netherlands

    Default The Lo SHu and No Shu and 4 and 5

    This is a diagram with the combined Lo Shu and No Shu that is from importance to the so called extra ordinary meridians in acupuncture.
    David Twicken has written a book about this subject and he comes with this diagram.
    He of course never heard of this No Shu diagram.
    The interesting part is that all numbers of the Lo Shu and No Shu have a difference of 5 or 4. The empty space between 4 and 5 in the enneagram, The place to come to the middle to GOD as some writers that are talking about the enneagrams are writing. The world between the Post and Pre heaven.

    This extra ordinary meridians make the connection in our body to our DNA and our spiritual world.
    Does anybody have some more clues looking at this diagram?

    Lo Shu in black and No Shu in red.

    Last edited by frank_r; March 26th, 2010 at 05:40 PM.

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    pantherpanther (March 26th, 2010)

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