17.3.4.5 to 36 love question

thisworldcompany · Apr 17, 2017

Hello! I've often found myself asking too many questions about an unrequited love (of course), and only becoming more confused (of course). We briefly dated, I fell for him very hard, and as soon as I did, he abruptly disappeared and ended it. Now he is with someone else but talks to me constantly. So tonight I threw up my hands and simply asked, "What is the most important thing for me to know in this situation?" I received 17.3.4.5 changing into 36. My head and heart are scrambled and too close to this to interpret anything clearly anymore (I always see the lines either too positively or too negatively, I think), and I couldn't find any other instance of 17.3.4.5 in the forum. Do you have any perspective on these lines?

diamanda · Apr 17, 2017

Hi thisworldcompany and welcome.

Sorry to hear you find yourself in this unpalatable position.

What is the most important thing for me to know in this situation?
17.3.4.5 > 36

I had this combination once when a long-term partner left me for good.
Like with you, he continued communicating with me afterwards, as he liked keeping 'connections'.
But having known him that well, I knew for certain he had no sincere intentions towards me.
So, to the cast:

17.3 - Someone craves maturity and strength, and goes after a particular someone to find it.
17.4 - Following, or being followed by, random people, a dishonest and fruitless situation.
17.5 - Following excellence. In your heart you still crave a real and great relationship.
36 - Hurt and darkness. What you are truly after in life and in your heart, cannot be found in this guy.

Life doesn't last forever... if you do value yourself and your desires, seek love somewhere else.
Hope this helps a bit!

thisworldcompany · Apr 18, 2017

Thank you, diamanda -- I really appreciate your interpretation and you sharing your experience with this combination.

Trojina · Apr 18, 2017

thisworldcompany said:
Hello! I've often found myself asking too many questions about an unrequited love (of course), and only becoming more confused (of course). We briefly dated, I fell for him very hard, and as soon as I did, he abruptly disappeared and ended it. Now he is with someone else but talks to me constantly. So tonight I threw up my hands and simply asked, "What is the most important thing for me to know in this situation?" I received 17.3.4.5 changing into 36. My head and heart are scrambled and too close to this to interpret anything clearly anymore (I always see the lines either too positively or too negatively, I think), and I couldn't find any other instance of 17.3.4.5 in the forum. Do you have any perspective on these lines?

Yes I have had this cast and my experience is quite different to Diamanda's. First all of what is happening in 17 is against a backdrop of feeling hurt (36) but overlaying that feeling of hurt there is the faith of 17, the lines are beautiful. In 17 one follows one's highest truth or what one is devoted to and in my experience this particular combination has meant despite feeling hurt there is a lot of faith within this relationship and it can continue.

However...and it's a big however, with romantic questions it is always good to keep a firm eye on the behaviour of the other rather than cling to hope via Yi answers. My question wasn't to do with romantic relationship. He doesn't seem to be treating you very well...in fact it sounds like he is displaying classic 'player' behaviour, you know keeping you hanging there, giving you a bit of hope but being with another woman. However that's just what it sounds like to me, I don't know the situation as you do and I certainly wouldn't want to foster false hope here but to me line 3 does speak of a decision to be the more mature person...but is that him or you ? Line 4 can be tricky since one can be seduced by a kind of vanity at being followed by others and perhaps in talking to you so much he is seducing you again to being attached to him. Line 5 is lovely, one follows one's highest ideal.

Perhaps this reading is really urging you to follow your very highest ideal in all this. There's no hint here of settling for second best. Be clear about what you want, your highest ideal, even if it's painful at the moment (36).

In my own experience the reading turned out very well, a kind of restoration of faith against a backdrop of hurt feelings and so on. But of course I asked quite a different question and how things turn out for a reading with one person won't mean it's going to belike that each time this cast is thrown.

What are your own ideals and wishes here ? You don't have to settle for any less than you would dream of having. Where is he in those dreams ?

galatea11 · Apr 19, 2017

Hi Thisworldcompany,

I'm sorry that you are going through this. Just in case it may help I received 17.3.4>63 when I asked for a picture of what a certain guy represented in my life. As it turned out he was a very needy person, more boy than man. Honestly, I think he needed a mother figure. Also, he was a user, always trying to get stuff from others rather than taking responsibility for himself. Diamanda's interpretation could have been written for this guy and what he represented in my life:

17.3 - Someone craves maturity and strength, and goes after a particular someone to find it.
17.4 - Following, or being followed by, random people, a dishonest and fruitless situation.

Wishing you the best of luck.

thisworldcompany · Apr 19, 2017

Thank you, Trojina -- these are such moving and beautiful points. It is so easy for me to take it as a sign I should have faith about him, that it would work out between us somehow, but no matter what, it can't be good to focus on this while he is with another woman. So I wonder if this is about holding to my faith that something will work out, whether it's a relationship with him or something else. Last night I read a passage from a play that seemed to fit with this -- a character was talking about how falling in love made her feel as though she had stepped into the sun for the first time (which is exactly how I'd described being with him), and suddenly the world seemed full of hope and possibility. Maybe it is a reminder to try to hold on to that, regardless of any present or future situation.

thisworldcompany · Apr 19, 2017

Thank you, galatea -- I really appreciate this. I think he does need a mother in many ways, and before this, I would have never thought of him as needy or a user, but it does seem like he is using me by keeping me around when he knows I have feelings for him. Really enlightening!

Trojina · Apr 19, 2017

thisworldcompany said:
Thank you, Trojina -- these are such moving and beautiful points. It is so easy for me to take it as a sign I should have faith about him, that it would work out between us somehow, but no matter what, it can't be good to focus on this while he is with another woman. So I wonder if this is about holding to my faith that something will work out, whether it's a relationship with him or something else. Last night I read a passage from a play that seemed to fit with this -- a character was talking about how falling in love made her feel as though she had stepped into the sun for the first time (which is exactly how I'd described being with him), and suddenly the world seemed full of hope and possibility. Maybe it is a reminder to try to hold on to that, regardless of any present or future situation.

I think so and maybe stronger than a reminder, more of an assurance, the sun is always there, only clouds cover it. It's funny I always link line 5 with following a star, the sun is our star.

diamanda · Apr 19, 2017

17.3 - Someone craves maturity and strength, and goes after a particular someone to find it.

Galatea a big thanks to you for opening my eyes concerning the sentence above.
I always took it to mean that it is I who craves a mature person.
Somehow I never saw it the other way round (i.e. that the immature guy craves my maturity).
Of course it could be applicable to both people in the equation.

It's funny I always link line 5 with following a star, the sun is our star

Trojina a big thanks to you too. I also see this line exactly like you say.
All that you wrote does make me reconsider this cast.
Bad as that relationship was, in a way we both served as a guiding star for the other, at times.

And yet, his calculating nature (17.4) and the immense hurt he caused me (36) are undeniable.

thisworldcompany · Jan 15, 2018

Just a few days ago, I told this same man -- who is now single -- that I have to move away, and we had sex. I had no idea he had any sort of interest at all. But I don't know if he just went for it because he figures I will be leaving. The next day I found out that I have two job interviews, so I might be able to stay after all. I haven't told him this yet, because he canceled plans with me. I'm not sure if he's avoiding me altogether or what the situation is. I asked his position towards me and got 38.1.4 changing to 4.

thisworldcompany · Jan 15, 2018

I'm not sure if the Yi is telling me that he's letting me go and moving on to something else, or if the Yi is telling me that I should do that, or if the Yi is saying I shouldn't worry and that he will be back if it's meant to be... Or is the reading just describing what happened already, that he returned? He and I met when I was quite isolated, so line 4 seems to fit with that, but maybe line 4 applies to how I feel and line 1 refers to how he feels?

I am trying to handle his distance differently than I did when we first connected -- back then, he canceled plans right when things were getting intimate and in the same way, by saying he was depressed and needed time alone, and I panicked and sent him a long email asking if he needed help and if he was really trying to break things off, etc. I think it pushed him away. This time, I just told him I trust him and let it be. So maybe my learning process is where hexagram 4 comes in? Or does it mean I am just being a fool by re-engaging with this at all and I haven't learned anything? Sigh.

diamanda · Jan 15, 2018

So maybe my learning process is where hexagram 4 comes in? Or does it mean I am just being a fool by re-engaging with this at all and I haven't learned anything?

You asked about his position towards you, so the answer refers to him.
I asked his position towards me and got 38.1.4 > 4

38.1 - he left you in the past and you didn't go running after him.
38.4 - so he trusts it's 'safe' for him to have sex with you again.
4 - he has no idea what his position towards you is, he's very immature.

thisworldcompany · Jan 15, 2018

Thank you, diamanda. Immature sounds like it might be right.

I'd like to think that 38.1 is about him assuming that I'm still moving out of town he's and keeping distance because of that, but there's Wing on 38.1: "If something inferior is being forced upon you, a cold shoulder will work wonders."

38.4 seems positive but it might be about him isolating himself from me so that he can find someone else.

diamanda · Jan 15, 2018

thisworldcompany said:
I'd like to think that 38.1 is about him assuming that I'm still moving out of town he's and keeping distance because of that

Yes that sounds very plausible as well.

equinox · Jan 16, 2018

Considering your results and the course of this story, I think he indeed has something for you and the possibility that he comes back to commit eventually isn't completely ruled out.
Somehow I don't think that he coldly decided to have sex with you, because it will be easy going for him, like, you'll leave and he doesn't have to commit.
I rather think it's kind of a push and pull dynamic -- he realises that you'll leave and in the face of losing you he starts to desire being with you again.
Even when I say that I think that he has a thing for you, I don't dare to definitely say that you can ever be happy with him, because he seems to be remarkably afraid of intimate relationships.

This could mean that he is normally ending up in longer relationships that are not too intense and therefore do not really confront him with his vulnerabilities. Possibly with somebody who excactly knows what they want and how to take it/maintain it. Are you like that? I can't know your character and don't want to offend you, but I think there could be a reason why you are highly drawn to a guy that behaves like that. Maybe you two are a more similar respectively complementary than you think in certain ways? Do you have relationship fears as well? (of course you don't have to answer on this very personal question, just think about it)

So I think as long as no outer circumstance changes everything (like you move indeed or one of you starts a new relationship) things between you and him are still open.

But of course you have to make a decision how and on whom you want to spend your energies. I know we can't deliberately decide for whom we fall, but we can slowly, slowly work on the patterns that cause us ending up in unrequited or unsatisfying love and therefore in pain. (and yes, sometimes we have just bad luck, almost everybody will experience the feeling of lovesickness, no matter how stable they are)

This is no promise of course, neither I want to spread false hope nor I know what life has in store for you eventually. But I think it isn't impossible that if you change your patterns, you could trigger that change in him as well and the dynamics between you two may improve.
But maybe you are soon fed up with him and this situation, maybe you meet somebody else who is able to trigger your best sides and you will live happily ever after with this other person. I don't know. Life is so short and full of almost unthinkable surprises: At the end this means, while it's okay and even important to be sad sometimes we never should end up in being miserable for a long time because of another person. All the best for you.

thisworldcompany · Jan 16, 2018

Thank you, equinox, your post is beautiful and so insightful. This is making me see a lot of things I had not been seeing. You are right, I have many of my own very intense fears too. But I would like to try. I asked the Yi what I can do to have that intimacy with him and I got Hex 1 unchanging.

equinox · Jan 17, 2018

Hello thisworldcompany, I am very busy today, but will get back to this thread tomorrow. Best regards, see you, equinox

thisworldcompany · Jan 17, 2018

Thank you again, equinox. I've been thinking a lot on what hex 1 unchanging means. It could be that there is potential here, but it just won't be realized. It could be as simple as that I need more yang energy, but I don't quite understand that for this situation. I'm usually not good at using yang energy at all, but if I do use it, it tends to be in a negative way, or it causes negative consequences. I don't see how being more active would do anything but push him away, since he said he needed to be alone. Maybe I am not understanding the whole concept.

But I tried to think of how to approach this creatively and, being more of a receptive person, I just asked for a dream that would help me understand. I'm a little disappointed that the dream was so mundane -- I dreamed that I was on my way to a bookstore and finally received a text from him. He was just asking me some simple technical question about wifi or something, something he would not need to ask anyone, much less me specifically. I had a strong intuition he would be at the bookstore when I arrived and he was. In the past he had acted like he didn't like this bookstore when I had asked him to go there with me, but now he seemed to like it just fine. He was sitting on a couch with either his phone or laptop. He looked scared and guilty and uncomfortable when he saw me, his eyes were wide and kept darting around. I sat on the couch next to him and asked what was going on, and although I tried to control it, I knew I looked sad and beeseeching in my eyes. He didn't really answer. When I left to get in a car, he followed me, though it seemed out of obligation or guilt or politeness. He started to get in the driver's seat, but then stepped out and gestured towards it, embarrassed. He went round to sit in the passenger seat and I just stood there looking at the car because I don't drive, and because I felt so bad that he was just coming along with me out of guilt.

thisworldcompany · Jan 18, 2018

I got a job, so I don’t have to move. Not sure how to tell him this. I was thinking about the dream and realized that I didn’t actually know what he was feeling in any of that. He might just be scared and lost. I think a bad pattern I’ve had in the past is trying much too hard to help, so I just texted that I hope his upcoming trip goes well and that he takes care of himself. I panicked and asked the Yi for a general diagnosis of things now: 13.3. This made me panic even more, so I asked how I can remove the mistrust and got 38.1.5.6 — more 38. This one really made me cry. I might need to stop consulting the Yi because I am working and worrying so much. This is extremely important to me and I hope I am doing the right thing.

equinox · Jan 18, 2018

Considering all those results you received, I think in the first place you should focus on letting go your expectations and the wish to take charge of those events happening in context of this relationship. Right now you don't seem to be able anyway right now, possibly also mirrored by the metaphor in your dream, 'you can't drive the car' -- but that doesn't mean that it has to be like this forever.

To him you said, you trust him and let him be.
In this thread you say, you are panicking and worrying so much because of him.
You see? Your behaviour towards him is simply not authentic, because of your fear you could do anything wrong that pushes him away.
But even you have the best intentions, there is a tendency to make things worse if we try to demonstrate indepence towards a person, if this is just acted and not heartfelt. So the solution is that you have to really develop this independence within yourself.

Maybe hexagram 1 is not only suggesting that there is indeed a potential between you two that can't materialise (yet, maybe), simply because you are both not ready for it.
Hexagram 1 additionally could be read here as an invitation to concentrate on your creative talents that make you loving your life and therefore feeling more independent, may it be taking vocal lessons, a cooking course, a writing class, renovating your flat or recreating your garden or whatever, I don't don't know what your interests are, but now it is a good time to focus on them and therefore on our own wellbeing instead of clinging to this story with this guy obsessively.

You don't have to be afraid of 'doing the right thing', as long as you (learn to) live your life in a 'take it or leave it' attitude, everything will become then like it is meant to be. I know this is easier said than done, but I am convinced, that it works.

Your other results, the repeated 38 and 13.3 show that there a lot of profound misunderstandings and communication problems between you, that are hard to overcome right now, but not totally insolvable. You two seem inwardly to be more connected than you are able to realise right now. Relating hexagram 59 of your result 38 may hint you should 'disperse' -- your fears, your expectations for example, I already mentioned it in the first paragraph. The relating result of 13.3, hex 25, is suggesting that you should 'disentangle'.
And you received line 38.1 once again -- the horse will come back on it's own accord, if it is yours. Trust in it.

Btw you don't have to think too much how to tell him, that you stay in town. It is your life and your decision after all. You don't have to or even shouldn't justify it before whomever.

thisworldcompany · Jan 19, 2018

Thank you, equinox. I realized that it is not so much that I don't trust *him* -- he has a good heart -- I don't trust that he feels any real romantic spark for me. I worry that he only feels pity and casual friendship and occasional passing physical attraction for me, and then I will be treated accordingly -- not because of his character, but simply because that's the way it is; we can't treat someone at a certain level if we just don't see them as having that intimate role in our lives. But I feel deeply for him. I am going to try to let go and not consult the Yi and do my best to occupy myself with creative things.

equinox · Jan 19, 2018

thisworldcompany said:
Thank you, equinox. I realized that it is not so much that I don't trust *him* -- he has a good heart -- I don't trust that he feels any real romantic spark for me. I worry that he only feels pity and casual friendship and occasional passing physical attraction for me, and then I will be treated accordingly -- not because of his character, but simply because that's the way it is; we can't treat someone at a certain level if we just don't see them as having that intimate role in our lives. But I feel deeply for him. I am going to try to let go and not consult the Yi and do my best to occupy myself with creative things.

Your results in my opinion show that there is kind of a significant connection between you, but they don't reveal if this is the 'romantic spark' that you are wishing for. In a way this all reminds me of myself when I was younger and head over heels in love with a guy who wasn't sure about us and behaved the way you describe. Nobody could do this to me anymore, that's the lesson you can learn from such stories and that's a good thing eventually.

It took me three (!) years to stop loving him and after our weird 'relationship' eneded, we terminated our contact for around one year and after we got back in touch the tide turned completely.
Now he was the one after me, but in between I was in no longer interested in him romantically, I could not even really understand anymore why I was so eager to be with him back then.

After he realisized that there was no chance for him to get me back, we still decided to be friends, because we had and still have this strong connection. Until now we are very close friends and I love him, but in another way than before.

Long story cut short: The horse came back on it's own accord after I stopped chasing it, but ironically I didn't want it anymore then. The strong feeling is still there, but transformed.

Also I believe that he started to really want me because I grew more confident and had no problem to say 'no' and to put my own needs over his. I think even though he loved me, I was simply boring for him when I was so dependent on him. It seems to be like a law of nature that you need some friction to produce 'sparks' I guess.

Btw, generally spoken now: someone may have a good heart, okay, but if they are informed about the depth of the feelings of their counterpart and don't share them and still want sex occasionally, then this is an tremendously egoistic act.

thisworldcompany · Feb 9, 2018

equinox, what you're saying about friction and sparks makes a lot of sense. And I'm very worried about the possibility that the whole thing was an egoistic act like what you mention at the end of your post.

Things are still very confusing. I came back to the Yi and asked two questions -- What does he need from me? and How should I approach him?

For the first, I received 19.1 to 7, and at first for the second, I initially received 2.1 to 24, but I was so confused by the different ways I could read this one that I asked for a clarification to help me and received 53.5 to 52.

I wonder if the 19.1 is matching up with the earlier talk in this thread about him being immature, and maybe with my dream about him needing me to drive the car. The other two, I'm not sure if they're just telling me to wait for things to develop with him or if they're telling me to wait for something else... obviously I'm more inclined to hope for the former.

thisworldcompany · Apr 1, 2018

equinox, your point about needing friction to produce sparks was right on the money -- he and I have been having a weird dance, lots of confusing conversations. Sometimes he says he's open to anything with me, sometimes he says he just feels friendship with me and there isn't a spark or an "ineffable chemistry" ("you don't drop a bomb on my life"). He always sits across the room from me and just watches tv and monologues about politics, so it seems like he is not even wanting sparks to happen. Chemistry is already hard enough for me so this is incredibly painful to hear; I already have a history of very deep emotional pain regarding sex and intimacy. It doesn't feel possible for me to experience anything positive with someone -- the only time I ever really did was with him, but it apparently didn't even register as anything notable or "sparky" to him -- and I just shut down. I asked the Yi if it were even possible to still have this chemistry with him and received 45.5, which seems good?

moss elk · Apr 2, 2018

thisworldcompany said:
Now he is with someone else but talks to me constantly. So tonight I threw up my hands and simply asked, "What is the most important thing for me to know in this situation?" I received 17.3.4.5 changing into 36

Hi,
There are times when Yi is very deep, and times when it isn't what you'd call on the same wavelength as the depth of our feelings or thoughts for someone.
When I first saw this answer, I immediately thought of Cyrano de Bergerac. 17>(36) A Secret Following It almost seemed like a snarky response, but I think Yi wanted you to focus on the fact that it wasn't a fully engaged relationship, more like you were his sounding board for conversation while he was in a relationship! None of these readings (not to mention your description of a luke warm, meh, interaction with him.) seem good to me for a relationship.

equinox · Apr 2, 2018

thisworldcompany said:
I asked the Yi if it were even possible to still have this chemistry with him and received 45.5, which seems good?

He seems to have trust issues, he doesn't recognise the position you have in his life -- he keeps refusing you but the same time is coming back again and again. He doesn't seem to be a very strong person -- at least not in these times.
Part of this game is your own fault, because you allow him to do this. He will never treat you appropriate as long as you don't treat yourself as well as you deserve it.

You wrote that you have already "a history of very deep emotional pain regarding sex and intimacy. It doesn't feel possible for me to experience anything positive with someone"

Pardon me getting psychologial and of course you don't have to answer on my question here -- but is it possible that you still fight with that refusal you experienced, trying to restage the situation, engaging again in a situation where you find yourself constantly refused, because you hope that this time it will play out in your favour and your "trauma" will be finally healed? I think it would be important for you to learn again that it is not impossible to experience something positive, it is not even just possible -- a positive situation, mutuality, should be the normal state and it definitely will be like that if you really want and start to understand that you deserve it.

I think you are a person full of love and willingness to commit and am really sure that there is a person out there who values your soul as they should. But you also have to value your soul as you should. Realise that this is what you deserve and nothing less. Certainly nobody deserves or should accept a situation where they are told "you don't throw a bomb on my life".

I believe that you can only change this situation with this guy we are talking about if you manage to learn to set healthy boundaries. I am sure it would change the dynamics between the two of you tremendously. The other question is if you still want him then.

thisworldcompany · Apr 4, 2018

A few weeks ago I had told him I couldn't just be his friend if he wasn't willing to meet me halfway and try, and he said he was open to that, but then he carried on as usual, as if nothing happened. So we haven't spoken to each other since, five days, which is the longest we've gone without contact this year. I have thought a lot about what you're saying here, equinox, and I've asked the Yi too many questions about boundaries and changing the dynamic and etc. I took so many notes but just got confused, as I usually do. So today I asked for a general diagnosis and received 33 all changing lines to 19. Which could be that the only way to advance in my life is just to give up and retreat, or that this time of retreat is shifting entirely and there will be an approach.

equinox · Apr 9, 2018

Every line of 33 changed, wow.
The thing is, he won't let you easily, you will have to be very firm in setting boundaries. But I think there is no other way for you if you want to find back to your autonomy, be it with or without him. Respect yourself, your own needs and wishes, and he will start to respect you too. And if not, then he shouldn't be an integral part of your life anyways.
I wish you all the best of luck. :hug:

thisworldcompany · Apr 17, 2018

I did hear back from him, and eventually saw him again, but I ruined it. I kept arguing with him over why he should give me a chance, and he dug his heels in, refused me, and told me I was embarrassing myself. I didn't play it right at all, I always do the exact wrong thing because it's all too painful to manage, never really getting to have that time with someone you feel deeply for and who doesn't feel anything for you at all, because then you can't really express it, it isn't heard or received.

I asked the Yi two questions about him -- what is his position towards me and then, crying and asking the sort of lamenting non-question question I usually try to avoid asking, which was "why doesn't want me" -- both times I got 55.2.6 to 14, which I don't understand at all. I can't think anymore.

Thank you equinox. I wish I could have set boundaries and done this right instead of just seeming like a pushy desperate mess.

thisworldcompany · Apr 17, 2018

Oh wow, the "attains the opposite of what he strives for" / "striving for too much one loses the greatest treasure" element of 55.6 definitely is my problem. That is exactly how I feel.

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