Since I have problems with this friend of mine, I needed to give it some thought. I understand better what was happening and I want to just tell him. Just for my sake, to express it.

I wrote a letter, but I am not sure whether to send it. I want him to hear me but I am afraid he will just return the email without opening it.

So, I asked Yi Jing: what can I expect if I send this letter to him?

I got: 38.1->63

This line is about not chasing a wild horse who is gone, he will return back on its own, the same goes for people.
Now I don't understand - is Yi Jing telling me that in general I should just leave him alone and he will return on its own, or that if I send the letter, he will return?

What do you think?
Thank you!

Hi moonrise,

So, I asked Yi Jing: what can I expect if I send this letter to him?

I got: 38.1->63

hex 38.1 suggests that you do not send the letter to him, do not chase after him in any way. If he *truly* belongs to you then he will return of his accord. The important word here is *truly*, if you are meant to be together then *truly* will apply to your relationship but if it does not then,expect no return.

hex 63 suggests that the relationship has reached its completion, you have tried your very best to keep it going, but nothing lasts forever. The relationship has been completed, now the change has come and with it disintegration. At the start of the relationship there was good fortune, but at the end unfortunately, disorder.

Hi, willowfox,

thank you for your reply!

I just meant to send him a letter saying some facts to him...not to "win him back" or something. I just want to give him a piece of my mind, for my sake. And I just want him to read it, I don't care if he answers. I am just afraid he will return the letter without even opening it.
I am a little pissed off at him

But I aksed now: do we TRULY belong together?
I got 20 unchanging.

I don't know what to think. Maybe we are connected in our spiritual search?

What do you think?

Hi moonrise,

well getting hex 20 is not really a surprise is it. Comtemplate, examine all the bits and pieces but at the end of the day you will have to wash your hands of this relationship and clear up all outstanding problems associated with it. A sacrifice has to be made unfortunately, the relationship. Then rise above the situation, set an example to others, that you can overcome all hardships.

As for sending him letters, the hex 38.1 quite specifically says its a bad idea, why not just stay still, it serves no purpose to make him angry and further alienate him. I think that you should take a moment and consider things from his point of view, not just yours. He is like a wild horse, he likes his freedom. Therefore, is it wrong or selfish of him to do something that makes him happy. Stop, calm down, look at both sides of the story, a wild horse does not like people clinging to it.

Moonrise and Willowfox,

38.1 changes to 64, not 63.

Oh yes, autumn, it is indeed 64!

Yes...but the thing is that for all this time this is something I have been doing - considering the issue from his perspective only and not valuing my own.
He didn't care much about this and he still doesn't - you are right, there is no point in going after him. But I just feel that all this is simply unfair. It is my responsibility, I was allowing and taking his attitude for a long time, too long, and now I would just like to get it out

But anyway, it doesn't matter.

Hi moonrise

Sorry if this is rude, but it is said in the best intention

Long time ago I wrote to you that would be useless to continue asking the Yi about this topic, since you don't want to follow it's advices (http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=729).

Since there, I decide to not comment anymore about that.

All the time (including this later threads) the answer goes in the direction of... release him. Stop writing him, stop expecting he to understand you, develop your own self-confidence and independecy... move forward and learn from this painful experience

For your own sake... please hear.

Best wishes

I agree with how Willowfox is reading 38.1 (bad idea overall to send the letter), and I agree with her advice on how hexagram 20 is advising you to proceed, by gaining an objective perspective; sacrificing your ground, and rising above.

You asked what he would do if you send the letter, and the answer is to oppose your point of view, but to do so without reacting to you, (when you see evil people, guard yourself against mistakes), and leaving what is between you as unfinished business (64). Remember this fits into the pattern of 23.5 (20), which you received when you asked "what should I do", (strip yourself of your passions, approach with greater social consciousness), because it is now twice you've received 20.

Hexagram 20 is telling you that he is approaching this relationship from a much more cerebral point of view. He is not going to receive your emotions.

Your concern is that he read the email and 38.1 tells us you can't MAKE him read the email and so therefore 64: sending the letter will not give you the sence of completion you are hoping for.

Hi autumn,

darn, I did'nt notice that mistake, oh well. The answer is still the same, ain't no bringing the dead back.

Moonrise,

If this is the same friend from May, and you've hoped that time has now changed his perspective, it appears that time has not changed his perspective. You must leave all hope of 63- closure- in the past and move on, because what you have is still 64, the unfinished business you want to resolve.

Jesed read an interpretation of 57.2 (18) in May in the above link, and that fits in to the advice of 20 which is asking you to see this from a higher perspective (a more adult perspective, perhaps? I say this only because you mentioned he is a father figure) very well. 57 can be referring to thoughts in our mind that won't stop, that are obsessive, and in line 2 we need to deliver ourselves (as in the priest exorcizing a demon) from their decaying influence.

Leave divination for now. Stop asking, and instead face the pain that is waiting right under the surface. Accept your friendship is over and face the grief. You are still asking about him because you haven't accepted he won't be what you need him to be for you. Accept it, and face the emotions, and by doing that, you will free yourself to move on.

Hi moonrise,

lets try again, this time with the correct hex. You gave me the wrong hex because you are thinking overtime on this business, it's really time to stop and move on, go make some money.
hex 64 before completion? It is a time of change from disorder to order, from chaotic thinking to sanity. If you keep on the way that you are going now, you will not only get your tail, well and truly wet, you will drown yourself. The past few months or so represent the chaos, the disorder in your life, now hex 64 says make the change put order back into your life. How? Very simple, admit to yourself that the relationship is well and truly finished, stop deluding yourself anymore. Use caution, to make sure that you don't fall back into your negative ways of thinking. A few weeks ago you asked about your new project, we gave it the thumbs up, so why not get stuck into that, and who knows who you may encounter. The world, even yours, is to big to be restricted by one man.

Hi, everyone!

I appreciate your comments very much. And I am amazed that you remember this issue from the past!

But you misunderstood me a bit.
You are all acting now as if I am this silly girl who cannot let go of someone. It is true that this person was very very meaningful to me and loosing him is very hard for me - but I am certainly not clinging now, not in the way you see it.
That I am not listening to Yi Jing's advice? I think this is a prematured and too harsh judgement. Who said anything about not taking into consideration what was given here, in this answer? Of course I decided immediately that I will not send the letter and I don't feel any kind of need to do that any more. I was just trying to explain to you the real reason why I wanted to write - it was just to express myself. Because your implications were that I am trying to get him back. I am certainly not! I don't feel any kind of need to connect with him any more. He's been humiliating and pushing me away for too long already, enough is enough! But now I am starting to realize how he was treating me and I just felt this urge to just go to him and say: hey, never again!

So that was the letter about, just my own liberation and not some whining to beg him not to desert me.

So, please, no need to patronize me

And whatever was happening, this relation with him was one the most significant experiences in my life and getting something like this out of my heart is a long process. Now I see the whole affair in a different light and I still have the need to talk about it and understand it. To fully see and accept that a person of such value didn't appreciate you and was not accepting as you are, takes time.

And this is my process about him, not some childish, silly dreamining how to reconnect. We cannot reconnect, we actually never connected, he was never interested in being a friend to me - but this takes time for me to digest and accept.

Anyway, I will not see him for a long, long time, he may even die sooner (he is very old). And this will be cleared from my heart totally.

moonrise said:

You are all acting now as if I am this silly girl who cannot let go of someone. It is true that this person was very very meaningful to me and loosing him is very hard for me - but I am certainly not clinging now, not in the way you see it.
That I am not listening to Yi Jing's advice? I think this is a prematured and too harsh judgement...... So, please, no need to patronize me

Click to expand...

I'm sorry if you felt like you were being patronized. I can only speak for myself, but that wasn't my intention. I absolutely understand how even a friendship can be very significant to us. I've had a friendship or two like that. I really do understand exactly what you mean when you say that you aren't trying to get him back, but you just need to process all of this. I believe you that you have no intention of re-connecting with him.

Even though you don't want to connect with him in reality, and this is just about you, you're still interacting with him in your head. It's like being haunted by someone.{ 57.2 (18)}. It's not about being silly. There is nothing silly about genuine, deep emotions. Your energy (57, the wind, mental activity) is being wasted right now. I know it feels like you need to "get it out", and process the things you need to say, and I understand that right now you are growing, and becoming conscious of how you will not be in relation to another person like this again. But, you don't have to put energy into it. All you have to do is connect with something else. Stop thinking about it. Give yourself a break. Make a goal of going 4 weeks without thinking about it. Then look back.

Hi, autumn,
thank you for your kind words.
I appreciate the help of people here but sometimes it happens that the line is crossed. I have no need to ask anyone to give me comments about how I lead my personal life and my personal choices. I ask for help with Yi Jing's answer and that is all. I can certainly understand that sometimes it is suggested to leave some subject or situation, but not in such way as some can use. There are personal boundaries that need to be respected even with people who are much close that some strangers on the internet.

But I really appreciate your input, you are very right about this. Of course I am letting go, but is takes time. I was indeed haunted by this man in my mind. Now I am processing this and such sadness and dissapointment comes because he was never truly allowing me close and I was too naive not to see it - becaue I felt it all the time - but to value myself and go away much sooner. I trusted him so much, he is so much older and he does have experience and he has a big heart, just there is no place for me there.
And it takes time to heal this.

Thank you again, autumn.

Hi moonrise,

you wrote;
I appreciate the help of people here but sometimes it happens that the line is crossed. I have no need to ask anyone to give me comments about how I lead my personal life and my personal choices.

If you believe that some of us overstepped the line, then I can only say sorry that you feel this way because absolutely no harm was meant. I think that I can speak for the rest of the people here; we were only trying to help you, in the only way that we can, by giving advice.

Dear Moonrise,
It sounds to me like you really do try to let this go, and yet there is a block. Somehow I feel that you need to reframe this in order to get closure for your own heart.
In reading your words, you say this man has a big heart, and experience (wisdom?) and yet he had no place for you in his heart. HOw could that be? It doesnt seem logical.

My feeling is that his withdrawal may have been a great act of kindness and wise love for you. He may have felt that you needed from him more than you even acknowledged. He may have even felt the same feelings for you , but out of kindness and respect for your age difference and your well-being, he may have chosen to renounce the connection. To reframe this , is it possible for you to see this as not a rejection but an act of love from a man who wisely loves you at a distance and probably wishes you well with great kindness and unselfishness? A true soul connection is never lost, and maybe this man's love can go with you like a mantle around your shoulders, causing you to know you are beloved and protected by one who is wise.
just a thought.
with love

Willowfox, would you mind if I give you some advice? If you're going to make it an apology, make it a real apology. "I can only say sorry that you feel this way.." is halfhearted blaming the victim. Further, if you do feel sorry that your words caused unintended hurt don't try to hide behind the group. Who are you refering to when you say, "I think that I can speak for the rest of the people here"? The only other posters on this tread are autumn, Jesed and me. Autumn has already made her comment and I don't feel anything I said was inappropriate, so that just leaves Jesed, and Jesed apologized from the get go.
BTW, if you really don't understand the differance, if you think I'm just splitting hairs, if I were moonrise, what I would have liked to have heard was, "Moonrise, I was trying to be helpful. I was not. I'm sorry what I said was hurtful. Please except my apology."
Willow fox, I am going to the trouble of writing this out because I respect your knowledge and your good intentions but I also see you creating unneccessary problems for yourself, problems a little bit of diplomacy could go along way to dissolving.

Best wishes,
Rosada

listener said:

My feeling is that his withdrawal may have been a great act of kindness and wise love for you. He may have felt that you needed from him more than you even acknowledged. He may have even felt the same feelings for you , but out of kindness and respect for your age difference and your well-being, he may have chosen to renounce the connection. To reframe this , is it possible for you to see this as not a rejection but an act of love from a man who wisely loves you at a distance and probably wishes you well with great kindness and unselfishness? A true soul connection is never lost, and maybe this man's love can go with you like a mantle around your shoulders, causing you to know you are beloved and protected by one who is wise.
just a thought. with love

Click to expand...

Interesting, this fits so well into Hilary's feedback for you on hexagram 42.

Hi rosada,

thank you for your comments.

But I feel that I have not made any hurtful remarks to moonrise, I was only giving her my interpretation of what the I Ching says for her to do in the circumstances that she finds herself in. So, why do you want me to apologise for just giving her advice supplied by the I Ching. I am not apologising for the I Ching. Every bit of advice that she has received from me, comes from the hexs that she has received. You should know that the I Ching does give "hurtful" advice in certain types of questions, but it is only "hurtful" to those who wish to resist that advice. If you accept that advice and go with the flow then it is no longer hurtful but indeed very good for you to follow. The advice given to moonrise, would if she follows it, remove the painful experience from her life. All the advice given, was for her to stop thinking, contacting the man, because it is only prolonging her pain. If you have a rotten tooth, either pull it out or totally repair it. I do not personally know moonrise, I have never met her and I never will, so my intentions in giving her advice supplied by the hexs is only for the sake of helping her to overcome her problem. I am completely neutral.

Hi, everyone!

Willowfox, I have no doubt in my mind that you only try to help, but comments as "go make some money" are offensive. And you concluded very briefly that I am being "deluded", that I am thinking negatively etc.

You know nothing about me nor this situation with this man. Why he is so important, what I needed to recognize and learn from this and why it takes so much time to close this. I only share some pieces of information with you here, enough to make the picture more clear in order to interpret the hexagram. I am not inviting people to give comments about my personal life and affairs.
Whatever is shared here is not nearly enough to make any kind of judgements about my way of thinking, how delusional I am or how clingy or whatever.

And also the comment that I gave YOU a wrong hexagram because I am thinking too much about this. First of all I didn't give it to you specifically but to all of people here who are willing to give some input. And second to just go and say that I am thinking about this too much - even if I am, it is my private affair and I can think about it as much as I want.
Also mixing other issues into this, sending me to focus on other areas in my life that I shared here - I will focus on whatever I need to focus. I understand what you wanted to say, but it is up for me to decide how to cope with challenges in my life. And how do you conclude that actually I am not focusing on other areas? Just because I posted a question about this man? That means that this is all my life? You are concluding this based only on me posting a question here? These are indeed truly presumptuous conclusions.

As I don't appreciate answers as: I told you already, you are not listening, so I withdraw. What kind of answer is this? I am not a 5 year old and you are not my parent. I have all the freedom to ask a question here and you have all the freedom to ignore it and not say anything if you feel the question is too silly. You don't decide when it is time for me to stop asking and move on, it is only me who decides. You are free to ignore me, but answers in the sense: I told you already, you don't hear or stop deluding yourself and just move on already are offensive and very rude.

Questions asked here are of very personal nature and we all cope with this issues in our own time and ability. Also something that seems totally obvious to you may not in reality be so obvious. From only few written lines you cannot draw any conclusions about anyone here nor about the issue the person is dealing with. Some questions are very painful and difficult and they should be treated with some more respect even though for an outsider it looks like they should be completely disregarded.

As for this question: Getting over this relation with this man is extremely difficult and painful for me and actually I agree totally that I should move on. But as I said, it is a process.
Besides, I asked a question about him because now, myself have a different understanding about him and the whole situation. For you, from the outside maybe the situation is all the same but for me it isn't because I have a different insight about it. it is totally different from what has been happening few months ago. Not him, but I am different and this is what counts and that's why the need to consult Yi Jing agan.

Listener, you have a very nice vision of this...but you see, this man rejected what I shared with him very roughly, he is not accepting my point at all. For me this was a big struggle because I valued his opinion very much and it was very difficult to accept that he treated many things I shared with him as rubbish. Then I felt like rubbish too and that I was stupid, but now I know that it is his problem and his narrowmindedness if he thinks his way is the only way.
I never had the guts to stand up for myself and now I for the first time feel I would like to tell him that maybe there are things that go beyond his mind pattern. He was always imposing things on me and now I just wanted to show him that the little girl grew a bit.
He was always "making things clear" to me, setting limits to how we relate. He was only accepting things that suited him - but I was not aware of it. I though he was right, now I just see that he was just arrogant and ruthless.

He doesn't love me at all, he was just enjoying playing a master - and I was allowing it because I was naive. An untill some point it was very helpful. He did help me a lot and I still care for him.
But he is limited as we all are and he cannot accept that I see and experience things differently. He was only accepting me while I was allowing him to "teach me". When I expressed myself and stood up for my vision, he cut me off completely. And it is very difficult for me to heal this, it is difficult to accept that in fact you were never respected and accepted for who you are. He only wanted to play a master for me, but I wanted him to be my friend. So, we cannot meet. The reason why it is so difficult to let go is that he can show much affection and love and care. Just enough that my hearts opens. But in the next moment he tells me to stay away from him.
That's why this was such a long journey because he alternated kindness and openess with total harshness which hurt me. Now finally, he cut me off so totally that there is nothing left but to move on - with new understanding that no one should treat me like this.

Anyway, I appreciate all the inputs here and I know that no one means to hurt anybody, but just have some sensitivity that you are dealing with very touchy issues that people share here and lines are quickly crossed even if this is not the intention.

Thanks for all your help!

One last comment on this. In another thread I made the comment that I believe the I-ching represents a living intelligence, and not a machine that you can just crank answers out of. That's why sometimes you get 4 unchanging when you ask the same question repeatedly. That's why you see patterns in the answers. That's why, after all, you don't get the same answer each time you ask the same question.

The people who interpret the answers are living, too. And if the Yi can tell you to act on its advice and stop asking, then why would living people not be allowed to comment not just on the hexagrams, but on the circumstances? When you open yourself up for advice, it is advisable that you be ready to accept the reactions you get from others as they come, and not insist you had no right to such a reaction.

Dear Moonrise, I agree with Autumn and I think it is - or can be - actually helpful for you to hear how all these people here remember your past posts, and issues, and then take the time to tie them all together in order to advise you. You might not like what you hear, but that may be because a nerve gets touched, and it could ultimately work in your favor if, instead of complaining to the observers, you delve deep into yourself.

You are one of the people on this board for whom a real picture emerges about you and your life......only because you have shared quite a lot, and you have shared honestly about your situations. I seem to remember you are fairly young? you lost your bike once, and you have yet to settle on a career altho money has been a problem for you.....You see? So if people tell you stuff like "quit thinking about him and go make some money," maybe the advice is unpleasant but exactly what you need! And maybe not. Thats okay too.

BUt You have an opportunity here...where a lot of people, with no agenda for hurting you, get to peek in on your life, make comments, and all in all, help you hopefully to grow......not just to read your I ching reponses as isolated from the rest of your life.

all the best to you!

the man sounds dastardly, btw, but the "process" of letting go doesnt have to take on a life of its own. You can decide at last not to give it airspace in your brain, and your heart will follow soon after, probably with gratitude to you for getting it away from such a useless drain of energy.

Hi,
thank you for your inputs!
I never said that I didn't appreciate the advice to give up. I emphasised that I agree with you on this. This is not about "I don't want to hear that it is best that I give up", not at all!

There are ways and there are ways how this kind of advice is given. It can be given without tresspassing some boundaries and still with some respect and mostly without any kind of personal comments and judgements and patronizing tone.

Anyway, it doesn't matter any more.
I guess I should not share such personal issues just like that. It is too touchy and all people don't respect it.

I wish you all all the best.