Conflicting Hexagrams?

cssslw · Feb 12, 2007

Hello, everyone:
I just asked the I Ching, via this website, "What do I need to know or do now to facilitate Stacey (my estranged ex girlfriend) and I reuiniting romantically?"
Primary Hexagram: #41, with changing line 6.
Secondary Hexagram # 19. Any idea on how to understand and go with this advice? Thank you all in advance for your help.
Christopher

jesed · Feb 12, 2007

jesed said:
Hi

Be aware against false hopes... follow them would lead you to injuries (the 10 Wing says: "Darkness of the light means injury")

Very clear answer, just like when you got 2 unchanging. But, are you going to listen this time? or you would attach yourself to (false) hope interpretations? That is the important fact.

You had receive 2 unchanging, 36 unchanging, 19 unchanging.. now you got again 19 (as tendential).

Seems like you won't listen; What is the use to get an answer then?

miakoda · Feb 12, 2007

Christopher-

You've been asking the same question over and over again. It happens with the Yi Jing when something is wanted badly. It's easy to lose the meaning when your hopes are driving you.

It might be helpful to go back over all that you asked in the last weeks. Try writing down your questions and also what you understood your translation(s) to say. Reread the forum replies that you've received here. You could even print them out and read it before you ask again. What can you learn from that?

Then try Jesed's fabulous 3 questions: Please give me a general diagnosis (or overview) of my relationship with Stacey? What is her position? What is my position?

It sounds like a lot of work, but I think you'll find if you do that, you'll begin to develop some trust of the answers you've received. After, you'll be able to ask more informed questions for guidance on your approach to Stacey.

Best,

Miakoda

cssslw · Feb 12, 2007

Conflicting Hexagrams**

Hi, All.
I appreciate everyone's input. However, perhaps I should clarify something. Let me state that I am not sitting around waiting for Stacey. I live a fun, exciting, successful life. I am dating several beautiful, bright women, one special girl in particular. I have an active social life, work is going very well (I am with an Ivy League teaching hospital), and I'm applying to medical school in 2008. Its not that I'm not listening to the I Ching. The simple fact is that I love Stacey very much, and I think its appropriate to check in with the I Ching every once in a while and see if there has been a shift to the positive. I'm simply keeping my ear to ground and my options open. And the Hexagrams did seem contradictory to me. I'm a novice, so that's why I asked all of you good people what you thought.
Christopher

mudpie · Feb 12, 2007

41.6 says now might be the time to increase your efforts, maybe the shift you are looking for. It is the Book of CHANGES after all

bruce_g · Feb 12, 2007

Hi Christopher,

Suppose you are a practicing physician, and your patient has a condition which requires that they drink lots of fluid, and they also have a condition where fluid retention is a problem. So, on one hand you tell them to drink more water, and also prescribe a diuretic to leech and expel water from their system. Wouldn’t that be called a contradiction?

It is the same when receiving advise from the Ching. A simple yes/no or “do this” doesn’t always work. Your condition is also complicated. There’s the you inside, the you outside, there is her inside and her outside, there are careers and personal ambitions, mixtures of feelings and facts, all which mandate the importance of maintaining a stable orbit and healthy physical, mental and emotional condition.

It appears to me you’re engaged in a bit of chasing your own tail. That’s not intended as me wagging my finger at you, it’s just how it looks to me from here. I’ve followed your threads and the responses you’ve received. They were good responses, and there’s not much I could add to them; and if I did, would you give them due consideration or throw more coins for a different answer?

Take command of your own troops, return to yourself, and stay open to what life brings your way. If you approach her in this way, she will be open to you.

Sparhawk · Feb 12, 2007

bruce_g said:
Take command of your own troops, return to yourself, and stay open to what life brings your way. If you approach her in this way, she will be open to you.

And then again, there's always that option, at times painful, at times liberating: Moving on and crossing that relationship out of your book... She appears to have done so.

L

dobro · Feb 13, 2007

cssslw said:
"What do I need to know or do now to facilitate Stacey (my estranged ex girlfriend) and I reuiniting romantically?"

Primary Hexagram: #41, with changing line 6.

Hi Christopher: I've been doing readings for people on this site for two or three years now. In that time, I've tried different approaches with people in my attempt to make the Yi more useful to them, none of which have been particularly effective, I think. But reading this thread that you started, I've decided on a new approach.

You know, when I read your original question and what you drew (41.6), I was pretty much in the dark. I mean, I could have said something like this: "Hex 41 is about making a sacrifice of some sort, and by giving something up, you experience a positive effect in your life, and so applied to your question it means something like: "You're going to have to make a special sacrifice in order to reunite with Stacey." In other words, a really general question gets a really general reading.

But after reading the post where you elaborated on your situation, I feel like I've got a *lot* more to work with. You said:

"However, perhaps I should clarify something. Let me state that I am not sitting around waiting for Stacey. I live a fun, exciting, successful life. I am dating several beautiful, bright women, one special girl in particular. I have an active social life, work is going very well (I am with an Ivy League teaching hospital), and I'm applying to medical school in 2008. Its not that I'm not listening to the I Ching. The simple fact is that I love Stacey very much, and I think its appropriate to check in with the I Ching every once in a while and see if there has been a shift to the positive. I'm simply keeping my ear to ground and my options open."

Okay, summarising what you said into *my* vernacular, it reads something like this: "Hey, I'm no loser, I'm doing fine. I don't *need* her. But I *want* her."

Okay, so here's my reading: sacrifice that attitude about the situation, sacrifice that valuation about your situation and your life - the valuation that there's nothing wrong with it and that you've got everything anybody could ever want - sacrifice that 'I'm alright, Jack' defense. The Yi says that it only *looks* like a sacrifice, but actually you'll be augmented by it. It won't get you what you want, but it'll get you to first base. It's like a test. Do you want her enough to give up the comfort zone of what you've got? See, if I was Stacey, I'd be impressed if you stopped dating 'several beautiful, bright women' because you wanted me and nobody but me. I mean, come on. Valentine's Day soon, right? How much do you want the girl? Enough to make a sacrifice? I have no idea, but I don't need to know. You do. Cuz from where I'm sitting, you look like one of two guys: either you're in love with Stacey and all that 'shining career path/bright social life' stuff is just wallpaper over an aching heart, or you don't deserve her cuz you're spending yourself on other people and things when you should be letting her know how you feel. I don't want to know which it is. But you need to know. *Need*.

Trojina · Feb 13, 2007

What if Stacey really doesn't want this relationship and theres nothing you can do about it. Then you have to sacrifice that desire to be with her. Seems to me there comes a point where you have to respect someones wishes to leave them be.

I don't think I agree with responses here that encourage csssiw to pursue even more - what if the poor womans had enough ? What if she doesn't want to be 'open' to him, what if she just want to be left in peace.

I don't see what this has to do with being a 'loser' or not, or even csssiws 'need'. It has to do with learning to respect someones wishes. Dobro you speak as if this were all about Csssiw, but there is another person involved with a will of her own and seems to me her will is not to be with Csssiw.

I saw a TV programme last night on 'erotomania' . What was worrying was that one woman who had been hounding her female therapist for 8 years after a two therapy sessions with her. She kept writing her letters. One letter said something like "the I Ching says you want to be with me but there is something in your way" . This therapist had lived in fear for years and had to move 500 miles away.

Now theres no way I'm implying this is the case with cssslw, but I reckon theres many people holding up relationships that are as dead as a dodo through what they believe the Yi is telling them.

BTW I think that happens here more often than we think, querants changing names and coming back with exactly the same questions, getting a fresh set of responses and so on and so on - just a hunch.

luz · Feb 13, 2007

Very well said, Trojan. The Yi should not be a substitute for common sense or real life. Asking the same questions over and over, believing what you want to believe even when there is evidence to the contrary... it all amounts to mental mast*.. I mean aimless mental exercise

esolo · Feb 13, 2007

Then try Jesed's fabulous 3 questions: Please give me a general diagnosis (or overview) of my relationship with Stacey? What is her position? What is my position?

I would encourage you to try this Christopher. I just tried it for two situations that I've been asking about a lot and wow, I got some insight for sure. (I'm going to post these two readings in a new thread.) Try it!

miakoda · Feb 13, 2007

Christopher-

We can't know when giving advice on a forum if we're encouraging stalking behavior, but I try to presume innocence. I responded with the assumption that you are a reasonable, intelligent person who is getting caught up in hoping. I'm with bruce_g and dobro on this, but I still suggest you ask deeper questions, especially ones that don't have a goal in mind. If you do so in an organized way, you might come to a greater understanding and respect for what Stacey may (or may not) want.

Miakoda

pakua · Feb 13, 2007

The situation does open a question though:

How do you know when enough is enough? Times do change, people do change, feelings change, circumstances change... It has been known to happen that two people were estranged and then eventually they got together.

I guess what I'm wondering about, is how do you know whether Yi is addressing only an internal state or an external state when it responds with a seemingly favorable response?

dobro · Feb 13, 2007

Trojan, Miakoda:

Okay, I went back over the string of threads that Christopher's posted here, and all it looks like to me is somebody who's been dumped and doesn't want to believe it. Where does the 'stalking' idea come in? Obsessing, maybe. Hurting, definitely. But stalking? Christopher, are you stalking that girl?

bruce_g · Feb 13, 2007

Pakua, I think that is a fair question. I haven’t found a sure-fire answer, other than lots of stumbling over the years, and hoping my cognitive abilities improve with time. But, I have noticed that quite often Yi's answers fits both my inside condition and my outside circumstance. I suspect that happens more often than I notice.

Trojina · Feb 13, 2007

dobro said:
Trojan, Miakoda:

Okay, I went back over the string of threads that Christopher's posted here, and all it looks like to me is somebody who's been dumped and doesn't want to believe it. Where does the 'stalking' idea come in? Obsessing, maybe. Hurting, definitely. But stalking? Christopher, are you stalking that girl?

I never used the word 'stalking'. Stalking would be I guess the furthest point of following an obsession and not letting go. I just bought up the story of the therapist as an extreme example of not letting go, of not respecting someones wishes. I don't know anything about Christopher so can hardly suggest hes a stalker, that would be insulting.

However I start to worry when I see as you have, someone who appears to have been let go of, who has posted 5 or 6 threads over the last four weeks asking how he can get back with her - and still being encouraged to think he can somehow manipulate this girl to want him. Also I see 41,6 as a message loud and clear to let go.

Well who knows maybe she will go back to him. And maybe you are right to continue encouraging him. I'm in no position to know really what is truly going on, as are any of us.

I just felt it was a perspective needed voicing on this thread. I realise it sounded like a criticsm of other contributors on this thread. Sorry it really wasn't meant that way. I assumed some just weren't aware of the history of it ?

dobro · Feb 13, 2007

Yeah, I know. You were talking about the likelihood of his unwanted attentions, not stalking. I bundled your idea and Miokoda's together because they were moving in the same direction. Sorry.

I wasn't encouraging him though, I was reading based on what he presented. But this morning I took the time to go back over the string of threads he's posted here, and the pattern's pretty obvious. You were right to highlight it.

miakoda · Feb 13, 2007

Stalking is a strong word, but there's a fine line between it and obsession. Sorry that I used it--I shouldn't have. However, referring to her in the definite term as his "future girlfriend" presupposes an outcome that doesn't allow for her choice. It may not be stalking, but it just about crosses the line.

dobro · Feb 13, 2007

In my book, stalking's physical, not mental. If somebody's isn't physically harassing somebody, they're not stalking. Jesus might disagree.

RindaR · Feb 13, 2007

IMO, any unwanted contact is stalking, if persisted in after the intended recipient has indicated they are _not_ interested. Some people stalk by using a variety of screen names and networks of lies to try to establish contact with others who are not willing. Especially if there's a history of abuse, physical, sexual, emotional, mental or financial.

Trojina · Feb 13, 2007

Maybe this is off topic but it doesn't seem to warrant a new thread but I'm beginning to think the Yi as a form of divination lends itself particularly well to delusion in love.

Not aiming that remark at Christopher, but it seems rampant here and I admit I've sucumbed myself in the past when I was younger. Armed with the Yi I managed to convince myself 'x' was as obsessed with me as i was with him and it was just a matter of waiting etc etc. I never did much about it, didn't try to contact him etc it was just in my head but the fall when reality hits comes hard

and it all seems such a waste of time. I'm quite capable of going that way again if I'm interested in someone I'm not sure about, but i try not to cos I know just how far down the garden path i could lead myself.

I don't think we lead ourselves down the garden path about anything else with the Yi, with jobs, money, attitudes, anything, we don't self delude, don't ask obsessiveley, we handle the answer even if we don't like it. I don't see people asking over and over about their dentistry work or their career or family issues or anything other than romantic love.

I noticed on this TV programme about erotomania/stalking etc it was the I Ching some of these people mentioned. Not tarot, not astrology or runes or any other divination method. For some reason the Yis top favourite for romantic obsession - funny because I don't even think such a thing is ever even referred to in the Yi is it ? And I understand I think from some of the scholars here the Yi would have been mostly originally used for very practical matters.

Hmm I wonder if people do ask tarot cards the same question over and over. I somehow don't think so, not to the same extent.

jesed · Feb 13, 2007

Well, since it is called the Book of Changes, always can do another question if the first one doesn't like us, with the idea that "maybe the situation had change by now"

Trojina · Feb 13, 2007

Yes well surprising how much can change in 10 minutes

mudpie · Feb 14, 2007

jesed said:
Well, since it is called the Book of Changes, always can do another question if the first one doesn't like us, with the idea that "maybe the situation had change by now"

I made that remark about it being the book of CHANGES before i read all the references to past threads about the same issue. I havent read all the old threads, nor will I, but I think my interpretation for 41.6 might be different based on the background and element of "beating a dead horse"..

I do agree with Trojan, and I have always advised people I read for NOT to use the Yi as a "she loves me, she loves me not" tool. Love-Relationship questions like this are the one area that I think get the most confusing responses, and especially repeated questions of this sort .

Sometimes In my own readings, (not about love BTW)if I argue stubbornly with the YI , it will sometimes change it's tack and give me a sort of 6.6 reading: Like OK, I have already given you my opinion about this, but if you are going to keep nagging me and go on with it anyway, here's what I advise: blahblah blah

In this case, it could be that 41.6 is saying: ALRIGHT then , don't give up, GO FOR IT, give it all you got.
In some cases, experience is the best teacher.

And yes, I DO dare to argue with the Yi at times, I admit it. Sometimes it is stalwart and not moved by my arguments. (21.6 or 39 -gulp-) but other times it tries to work with me. Keeping a notebook of recorded responses really helps because over time the wisdom is better understood in light of how things turn out. AND SOMETIMES, the very act of arguing and sorting out thoughts brings about a change in my own aims/attitudes. So I say, argue away. Ultimately, you will follow your own heart where you need to go.

and, I must add, I think the Yi is an excellent conversationalist. I see no problem with asking the YI things like : "WHAT DO YOU MEAN?" ...."WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?"....."BUT I REALLY WANT THIS....HELP ME OUT" If you are willing to really get into a subject, the Yi is a willing mentor. It isnt just a I HAVE SPOKEN kind of oracle. JMHO. I know there are those who feel this sacrilegious , the purists. BUt I am not one of those and I have a learned a lot from my dogged conversations. Of Course, I would never post any of those arguments here on a discussion board. It would try everybody's patience

miakoda · Feb 14, 2007

I think the Yi Jing attracts those who are unhappy in love because it appears at first to be a tool for getting what the questioner wants. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking it's like a taxi that can be directed where you want to go (guide me to her/him). Eventually, it turns out that it doesn't work that way (ouch!). Then the next step is to move past that point of 17.4, and learn to follow life. That's when the Yi Jing gets really interesting, no?

Miakoda

Trojina · Feb 14, 2007

miakoda said:
I think the Yi Jing attracts those who are unhappy in love because it appears at first to be a tool for getting what the questioner wants. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking it's like a taxi that can be directed where you want to go (guide me to her/him). Eventually, it turns out that it doesn't work that way (ouch!). Then the next step is to move past that point of 17.4, and learn to follow life. That's when the Yi Jing gets really interesting, no?

Miakoda

Yes also its some sort of communication about your loved one, it has to tell you something cos it has to give a hexagram, as it has to tell you something its a way of keeping the whole matter alive. Without it there would be noone to talk to about obsessed over ex lover, friends soon get bored and tell you to move on which you don't want to hear. As long as its a matter for discussion it continues to have a bit more life energy in it I suppose.

Hmm so you think people may perceive Yi as more of a tool for getting what one wants as say opposed to the tarot ? I think this may be the case, yet people could do as many spreads over and over using the tarot - yet somehow I don't think they do. Well I never turned to tarot in love crazed times, I may have done a spread or two but it was the Yi that got pestered far more.

Trojina · Feb 14, 2007

listener said:
and, I must add, I think the Yi is an excellent conversationalist. I see no problem with asking the YI things like : "WHAT DO YOU MEAN?" ...."WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?"....."BUT I REALLY WANT THIS....HELP ME OUT" If you are willing to really get into a subject, the Yi is a willing mentor. It isnt just a I HAVE SPOKEN kind of oracle. JMHO. I know there are those who feel this sacrilegious , the purists. BUt I am not one of those and I have a learned a lot from my dogged conversations. Of Course, I would never post any of those arguments here on a discussion board. It would try everybody's patience

No c'mon we'd love to see you on the mat with the Yi having a good bust up

Once I said 'hang on you just told me a, now you tell me b ! whats going on ! :rant:

and got 6,5 which made me laugh.

Yes seriously though I find that the Yi does seem not to mind things i had hitherto thought that it would mind. Seems to have infinite patience with quite minor questions. One time I would not have dreamed of asking over which garage to use for example, or which dentist, but have found it very helpful, must have saved me alot of money.

luz · Feb 14, 2007

I guess people do use the Yi to 'get what they want' in the sense that they hope to hear what they want to hear. I have never really done tarot or anything else, but I imagine the Yi is much easier to 'do', I mean, all I have to do is press a button and I get my two hexagrams. It's really easy to use, unless you do yarrow stalks, which is probably very time consuming.

And I think the reason people ask more about love is because they obsess more about love. Yes, people can also obsess about their teeth or about their jobs but the outcomes in these situations are rather limited, whereas love possibilities are endless. There are more flavors, more textures in matters of the heart than in any other matter. And, often, love issues are intermingled with job issues, money issues, and, who knows. maybe even teeth issues

.

When I first started using the Yi, I wanted to ask questions and questions and questions. And, specially since I found the free reading here in Clarity, where all I have to do is press a button and I get my hexes, (no coins, no writing, just liek that) I had loooooooooong conversations with it, you would not believe the questions I asked, including "who are you?" :blush:

and also questions not limited to words, i would go

or grunt or something and the Yi always replied!

And I wanted to read for everybody, I *wanted* questions, and most people, of course, wanted to know about love. And I would indulge them into asking as often and as much as they wanted because it was fascinating... so I can understand how it is. And this helped me a lot to get to know the hexagrams and also to learn to be less afraid of some of them. Statistically, they would pop up often, all those dreaded ones, like 23, and I could see that they could mean many things. (some of the things they mean, I still don't know because I'm not a good reader.. hehehe but I do know they did not mean anything horrible).

In any case, I think all of us have been obsessed at one time or another in our lives and we can understand that. I have only used the Yi for about two years, if I had known it when I was a teenager, I have no doubt I would have by now memorized each line many times over, because I'm sure I would have asked an astronomical number of questions.. We all have been there, I guess, and that is why we know that what people need sometimes is to step away and focus in the real world a little bit instead of asking obsessively. Sigh.

esolo · Feb 14, 2007

Armed with the Yi I managed to convince myself 'x' was as obsessed with me as i was with him and it was just a matter of waiting etc etc.

I don't know about this. For example, as you can see in that thread I started using Jesed's questions..I have two different people I've been asking about. Both relationships are important to me, so important that I've given in to asking the Yi about them way too many times. With one person I continue to get negative answers even though I would desperately like to see a positive answer there. No matter how much I ask the answer is always the same. For example, I just sent another email in an attempt to rectify the situation. I asked what his response was going to be and I got 14.1, "have no commerce with trouble". Should I get exited because it's hexgram 14? I don't think so, not given that moving line. He is obviously not going to respond. So, I don't see how I could convince myself that there's any hope, not with those answers. So, if someone does that it has to be a case of simply refusing to correctly interpret the answer.

dobro · Feb 14, 2007

Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed the absence of a very important person from this discussion?

Conflicting Hexagrams?

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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