Iching = evil?

superman · Dec 27, 2010

According to the website's artcle on the history of the Iching:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/history/history.php said:
The earliest records of divination in China date from the early Shang dynasty. Divining involved heating animal bones in a fire and studying the cracks that formed in them, in order to perceive the quality of the time: was it right to make a sacrifice, to open communication with the spirits and ancestors?

But in the bible, it says:

Deuteronomy 18 said:
Detestable Practices

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter ina the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

So does this mean that the Iching is dark magic?
And since it originated in China, does it mean that God will eventually destroy this nation?

gene27 · Dec 27, 2010

This subject crops up every so often on this site. So we have to understand a little bit about the nature of the subject. Taking into assumption the idea that the "Lord God of Israel" is the only Lord God or not, which is indeed an assumption, we have to understand what is going on here.

First, it can be shown unequivocably that all the prophets of Israel, those who have Bible books named after them, were all experts in divination. Also Joseph himself, in Egypt asked his brothers, "Do you not think that I can divine?" So... were all these servants of YWHW condemned to eternal hell fires? Not hardly. So why did YWHW demand that the people not do what the priests and prophets did? Precisely that, the people were not priests. In ancient China, Sun Tzu, the supposed author of "The Art of War" wrote, let not the military man divine in any way. Why? Well, can you imagine what would happen if every soldier divined before a battle? First, you would have a multitude of answers, and second, you would have soldiers refusing to go to battle out of fear of their particular prognostication. Divining was specifically to be reserved for the priests and those who were thoroughly trained in the arts.

Even on this website we see cases of people freaking out because they get a divination that appears to have dire consequences. In such cases it is best that they ask guidance from senior members. Divination becomes dangerous in many ways when we consult without really, truly, knowing what we are doing. It should be left to those who are called to the task. Does that mean nobody should pick up the coins? No. Just be aware that the true meaning relates to how we can better ourselves, not to some fixed fate we are confined to if we get what appears to be a negative reading.

The heathen nations in the Bible were an allegory of those who practice without a true understanding of the nature of the universe. As such they did it for selfish purposes, often to find out if they could vanquish another nation or raid a village successfully, or to get away with stealing a neighbor's property. it wasn't for altruistic purposes. In this way it became what some might call evil. It does behoove each person to test their own hearts to see their own motives in such a case. This is the best way to deal with it. It is not for everyone.

Gene

superman · Dec 27, 2010

Some good points brought up by Gene.

I can understand some ppl having innate divination powers b/c God made them that way, or that they were Archangels disguised as human beings, but...

But I just wanna mention one specific example.

Lynn Grabhorn, author of best-selling newage books "Excuse Me, Your Life Is Waiting", and "Dear God, What's Happening to Us?" consulted with 'spirits' while she was writing the latter.

In other words, she was under possession during her 'consultations' and 'divination' sessions with the 'other world'.

She developed severe fibroid myalgia during the process (the spirits told her that it was good for her). She died after the book was published -- they killed her, the fallen angel spirits that she consulted with, mistaking them for 'ancestors', 'guardian angles' and other 'benevolent entities'!

This is the precise thing that the Bible warned about wrt divination and spirit communication. In Grabhorn's case, the fallen entities she worked with were not satisfied with a simple 'thank you'. They wanted something more -- they wanted... her soul!

Who's to say that those 'exclusive priests' mentioned by Gene did not communicate with fallen angels pretending to be otherwise?

Who's to say that evertime we throw a coin, or a yarrow, our 'answerer' wants nothing more from us than our appreciation and admiration?

Ever think about this?

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gene27 · Dec 28, 2010

Spiderman

I get the feeling you are quite young. Am I right?

Gene

pocossin · Dec 28, 2010

superman said:
She developed severe fibroid myalgia during the process (the spirits told her that it was good for her). She died after the book was published -- they killed her, the fallen angel spirits that she consulted with, mistaking them for 'ancestors', 'guardian angles' and other 'benevolent entities'!

How do you know this?

superman · Dec 28, 2010

gene said:
Spiderman

I get the feeling you are quite young. Am I right?

Gene

Age (or rather time) has nothing to do with wisdom...

superman · Dec 28, 2010

pocossin said:
How do you know this?

She described symptoms of her newly developed fibroidmyalgia in her book, "Dear God". In the book, she also stated that the spirits informed her that her "pain" was merely transitory, that it was necessary for her "development". I kid you not. Find a PDF copy of the book floating around somehwere on the net. Read it. Awaken yourself to the dangers of divination and spirit communication, as the Bible had warned us all!

Sparhawk · Dec 28, 2010

Boy, I wish I had a penny for every Bible-thumper that wants to save my soul...

pocossin · Dec 28, 2010

superman said:
Awaken yourself to the dangers of divination and spirit communication, as the Bible had warned us all!

Did she have fibroid myalgia (pain from fibroid tumors on the wall of the uterus) or fibromyalgia (generalized muscle pain)? Neither of these conditions are life threatening sofar as I know. The bible is not now commonly used as a manual to diagnose disease. If you believe she was killed by fallen angels, maybe you should report them to the police

I consider trance to be unwholesome, but no one I know of at Clarity puts themselves in a trance to divine.

superman · Dec 28, 2010

pocossin said:
Did she have fibroid myalgia (pain from fibroid tumors on the wall of the uterus) or fibromyalgia (generalized muscle pain)? Neither of these conditions are life threatening sofar as I know. The bible is not now commonly used as a manual to diagnose disease. If you believe she was killed by fallen angels, maybe you should report them to the police

I consider trance to be unwholesome, but no one I know of at Clarity puts themselves in a trance to divine.

Not life threatening?

Voltaire said:
Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of which they know nothing.

Lynn Grabhorn became so severely affected by her illness that at one point in her book, her disabling disease did not even allow her to crawl across the living room.

pocossin · Dec 28, 2010

superman said:
Not life threatening?

Yes, not life threatening. Fibroid tumors are non-cancerous. If they are troublesome, then in older women the uterus is removed -- I think. This is a woman's issue, and I do not know the details. Fibromyalgia is detected by pressures on sensitive points, but there is no detectible change in the underlying tissue, and some doctors do not consider it a disease.

I have yet to see a spirit of an ancestor while divining, and you are encouraging me to believe that I should be. When I divine I use pennies that have the head of Abraham Lincoln on one side and the Lincoln memorial on the other. Do you think that the spirit of Abraham Lincoln is present while I divine? I admit to having a respectful attitude toward Lincoln but have never seen his presence. Next time I will try harder. Thanks for the encouragement.

Trojina · Dec 29, 2010

superman said:
Not life threatening?

Lynn Grabhorn became so severely affected by her illness that at one point in her book, her disabling disease did not even allow her to crawl across the living room.

Fibromylagia is not life threatening nor are fibroids.

Being unable to crawl accross ones living room is not a sign of life threatening illness . For example one may not be able to crawl accross ones living room floor with a bad back, a bad knee or even an badly ingrown toenail. None of these are life threatening. Conversely those who are suffering from a life threatening illness may be able to turn cartwheels over their living room floor

In another thread you have a good laugh at someone for speaking of God yet here you state with some certainty based on absolutely nothing substantial that 'fallen angels' killed a woman who had fibroids...or fibromylagia

many drs don't even believe fibromyalgia exists

sooo · Dec 29, 2010

superman said:
In the book, she also stated that the spirits informed her that her "pain" was merely transitory, that it was necessary for her "development". I kid you not.

2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

gene27 · Dec 29, 2010

I find this whole series meaningless. I doubt that anyone knows any reality in what happened to Lynn Grabhorn. Whether spirits ultimately finish us off or just material cause and effect is not something we can easily grasp with our present scientific understanding.

What is more important is, if you feel doing I Ching readings is contacting evil spirits, why are you here? You are not going to convince members of this board that they are devil worshippers. That is just not going to happen.

So, now, back to the Bible. The entire fundamentalist perspective is based on an entire literal translation of the Bible as the unequivocal and wholly inspired word of God. But taking that pespective leaves multiple problems. In one place in the "Old Testament" it says that David was ordered by God to number the people. In another place, regarding the same story, it is said that David was ordered to number the people (take a census) by the Devil. The fundamentalists would say it is two different occassions, it isn't, but even if it is, why would God and the Devil tell him to do the same thing? And why are men who are supposedly to be of God follow the Devil? There is a deeper story.

Now, the Children of Israel were told by "YHVH" not to practice divination as the people in Canaan did. The key here is comparing this activity with that of the people of Canaan. The inference, (without going into a lot of storyline) is that the people of Canaan were descendants of the giants (nephalim) that mated with the "children of men" (young women of the earth race) and as such were a fallen race. Therefore their divination practices were dangerous. (Am I saying this is true? I don't know, but that was the inference of the story) Therefore they were not to follow the same practices. Yet we have no indication that Joseph was punished horribly for divining about the status of his brothers in Egypt. The Priests after the line of Aaron, or the line of the tribe of Israelites that were meant to be priests (I have a mental block on their name right now,) were in any way punished for practicing divination. But it is well known now that the priests who wore the breastplates with the 12 stones used the breastplate for divination. The problem wasn't the divination, nor was there a problem with working with the spirits of the ancestors. The problem was the intermarriage, (of which the Canaanites were descendants) of the ones who fell from heaven, and the women of the earth race, and the devolution that came about from that marriage. It doesn't mean that anyone who contacts a spirit is in line with the devil.

In the so called, "New Testament" it is said to test the spirits, whether they be of God. Now, how do we know what spirit we are contacting? Simply by knowing what kind of people we are. If we have good motives we have contact with good spirits, otherwise...

But as was said before, no one here that most of us know of is contacting some kind of spirit before they throw the coins, or divide the yarrow stocks. The message of the I Ching in its inner context and that of the Bible in its more esoteric meaning are the same message. They cannot truly be divided. The highest use of the I Ching is to learn about ourselves and our higher self, and that is also true of the Bible. In essence they are the same book.

By the way, where does the word divine come from? It is a little more than coincidence that the words for God in the English language, and the word for the Devil come from the same source. Divine, devil, (divil) (deos, deo, theos theo, theology,) (Deus,Zeus, Divine) (Dos, two, deuce, devil) Two is separation. It is the yin and yang of God in the separated state. They are one and the same thing.

Gene

jilt · Dec 29, 2010

gene said:
I find this whole series meaningless. I doubt that anyone knows any reality in what happened to Lynn Grabhorn. Whether spirits ultimately finish us off or just material cause and effect is not something we can easily grasp with our present scientific understanding.

What is more important is, if you feel doing I Ching readings is contacting evil spirits, why are you here? You are not going to convince members of this board that they are devil worshippers. That is just not going to happen.

So, now, back to the Bible. The entire fundamentalist perspective is based on an entire literal translation of the Bible as the unequivocal and wholly inspired word of God. But taking that pespective leaves multiple problems. In one place in the "Old Testament" it says that David was ordered by God to number the people. In another place, regarding the same story, it is said that David was ordered to number the people (take a census) by the Devil. The fundamentalists would say it is two different occassions, it isn't, but even if it is, why would God and the Devil tell him to do the same thing? And why are men who are supposedly to be of God follow the Devil? There is a deeper story.

Now, the Children of Israel were told by "YHVH" not to practice divination as the people in Canaan did. The key here is comparing this activity with that of the people of Canaan. The inference, (without going into a lot of storyline) is that the people of Canaan were descendants of the giants (nephalim) that mated with the "children of men" (young women of the earth race) and as such were a fallen race. Therefore their divination practices were dangerous. (Am I saying this is true? I don't know, but that was the inference of the story) Therefore they were not to follow the same practices. Yet we have no indication that Joseph was punished horribly for divining about the status of his brothers in Egypt. The Priests after the line of Aaron, or the line of the tribe of Israelites that were meant to be priests (I have a mental block on their name right now,) were in any way punished for practicing divination. But it is well known now that the priests who wore the breastplates with the 12 stones used the breastplate for divination. The problem wasn't the divination, nor was there a problem with working with the spirits of the ancestors. The problem was the intermarriage, (of which the Canaanites were descendants) of the ones who fell from heaven, and the women of the earth race, and the devolution that came about from that marriage. It doesn't mean that anyone who contacts a spirit is in line with the devil.

In the so called, "New Testament" it is said to test the spirits, whether they be of God. Now, how do we know what spirit we are contacting? Simply by knowing what kind of people we are. If we have good motives we have contact with good spirits, otherwise...

But as was said before, no one here that most of us know of is contacting some kind of spirit before they throw the coins, or divide the yarrow stocks. The message of the I Ching in its inner context and that of the Bible in its more esoteric meaning are the same message. They cannot truly be divided. The highest use of the I Ching is to learn about ourselves and our higher self, and that is also true of the Bible. In essence they are the same book.

By the way, where does the word divine come from? It is a little more than coincidence that the words for God in the English language, and the word for the Devil come from the same source. Divine, devil, (divil) (deos, deo, theos theo, theology,) (Deus,Zeus, Divine) (Dos, two, deuce, devil) Two is separation. It is the yin and yang of God in the separated state. They are one and the same thing.

Gene

hmm, about being patient with superman....

gene27 · Dec 29, 2010

jilt

My intentions here are not to be cruel. Superman wrote a very good post on one of my other articles I am carrying on. I just want superman to understand things on a little deeper level. I hope superman will continue to post, some of his posts are very good.

Gene

pocossin · Dec 30, 2010

gene said:
By the way, where does the word divine come from? It is a little more than coincidence that the words for God in the English language, and the word for the Devil come from the same source. Divine, devil, (divil) (deos, deo, theos theo, theology,) (Deus,Zeus, Divine) (Dos, two, deuce, devil) Two is separation. It is the yin and yang of God in the separated state. They are one and the same thing.

This is a mistake. 'Devil' comes from the Greek diaballein "to slander, attack." 'Divine' comes from Latin, ultimately from divus "a god," related to deus "god, deity."

gene27 · Dec 30, 2010

No pocossin

It is not a mistake. These words go back much farther than this.

Gene

pocossin · Dec 30, 2010

gene said:
No pocossin

It is not a mistake. These words go back much farther than this.

Gene

When it's convenient, please give your evidence. I'd like to know.

gene27 · Dec 30, 2010

Pocassin

It is well known that the devil mean adversary in most ancient languages. The Greek which you refer to is correct in that diablos, the word where we get the term diabolic, or in spanish diablo, does mean the adversay. In Hebrew the word for Satan also means adversary. I am talking about the term deos, zeus, in spanish dios, in english theos, theology, theosophy. These words have the dualistic meaning of God and two. They are also the origin of terms like, what the deuce? Dos, the spanish word for two. Zeus was the highest greek god. That god by many is considered to be an impostor of the real God. It is a convoluted mess of words that have grown throughout the years. We have the day of the week called Tuesday. Tue was a Norse god. The word two is related. It is true that the word devil has a relationship with the term diablos. V's and B's are similar sounds and vary from language to language. But it just as much has a relationship to the term divine. This is not by accident. In Hebrew Satan stood at God's side and pleaded with God to punish men for their sins, which he would constantly enumerate. That is how he became known as the adversary. We are confusing two different things, but then again, those two different things were also related. In numerology the name Jesus and Lucifer have the same gematria, they both add up to the number 74. Opposites commonly add up to the same gematria in biblical parlance. It is because they are two sides to the same coin. Also, Jesus is 74, the gematria for beast, as in (the beast) comes up to 47. add the two together and you have the number 121 (11 squared) which happens to also be the number of antichrist. What I am talking about here is intuitively derived from understanding the nature of words. Words that sound alike can often be found esoterically to have a connection even if history doesn't record it or there doesn't seem to be a connection on the surface. Some call it, "the language of the birds." A language that goes beyond the artificial. That is where I am coming from on this.

Gene

sooo · Dec 30, 2010

pocossin said:
I have yet to see a spirit of an ancestor while divining, and you are encouraging me to believe that I should be. When I divine I use pennies that have the head of Abraham Lincoln on one side and the Lincoln memorial on the other. Do you think that the spirit of Abraham Lincoln is present while I divine? I admit to having a respectful attitude toward Lincoln but have never seen his presence. Next time I will try harder. Thanks for the encouragement.

chuckle..

but if you did call him up while coins were still spinning.. who knows? He might pick up. lol

pocossin · Dec 30, 2010

sooo said:
chuckle..

but if you did call him up while coins were still spinning.. who knows? He might pick up. lol

Lincoln attended séances so he might very well return in one. Dogs too: Mackenzie King, the Prime Minister of Canada for 22 years, sought spiritual contact and political guidance from his pet dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Séance

Christians oppose séance but ironically practice it by seeking to channel the spirit of Jesus.

pocossin · Dec 30, 2010

gene said:
It is a convoluted mess of words that have grown throughout the years.

Thanks, Gene. I was being too literal.

pocossin · Dec 31, 2010

Superman is right that fundamentalists would consider the I Ching to be evil as they consider everything they don't understand to be evil. When a car or toaster oven doesn't work, it's because the devil has gotten into it, as I have heard them say. I have been trying to think of why in many cultures the dead have been considered a source of information, and I think it is because they are bearers of tradition, are no longer encumbered with material limitations, and possess spiritual perception. I Ching divination is the application of wisdom and lore to the solution of problems, so in a way it is a kind of spiritualism based on a continuity with the past. And the same can be said of anyone who tries to learn from the past.

Iching = evil?

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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