Question:

Has x dexided to have a baby with y?

Context:

A number of us have a friend we are concerned about as the person was forced into an arranged marriage by family members.We are concerned and have respectfully guided not to take on having children at this stage as we are more non traditional. Due to this, we do not have so much access to our friend and are concerned whether we should find a way. To avoid conflict, we asked the Yi about the situation.

Yi's reply:

62 3.5.6>12

Analysis:

62 is one of those hexes with which I haven't had much experience.From what I read, it suggests internal conflict or pressure from the outside with a strong internal resistance. The lines are weak on the outside. I am not sure if this is a correct view, but I was thinking of someone with a strong inner core, but with a sort of weak exterior. Not sure. The general feeling is one of conflict, tension, etc.


Line 3

Because we believe our friend to be fighting against having children since the marriage was forced, I took this line to maybe suggest that our friend is taking extreme caution against pregnancy and using contraception or other methods like abstinence/avoidance, knowing that it would be unwise to be careless.

Line 5

This seems to suggest that though the situation is tricky (clouds but no rain), our friend has managed to stand mostly alone and may have had to find support from others outside the family or has found help from someone not wanting to involve him or herself because the line the hunter has made his shot and retreated to his cave with his bounty. This also could mean however that our friend is engaging in risky behavior but has managed not to get his spouse pregnant.

Line 6

He passes him by, not meeting him.
The flying bird leaves him. Misfortune.
This means bad luck and injury.

We debated this and thought that maybe our friend may be refusing to "meet" her and is wanting to leave. This obviously would bring on injury as the family would disapprove. We in part took this view because of the resulting hex 12.

Hex 12
We are seeing this as a stalemate between our friend and his family.

Is this a reasonable interpretation? We want to not embarass him or unnecessarily add pressure by triggering more family pressure and fights.

Thank you in advance for your time.

Has x decided to have a baby with y?
62 3.5.6 > 12

Based on hexagram symbolism, I think x will have a baby with y. 62 is the picture of a flying bird and 12 of dried grass. Storks in folk lore bring babies, and nests are made of dried plant material. Considering the psychology of the situation, if x could not resist family pressure to marry, how can he resist their pressure to have children?

Line 3. Surprised by a pregnancy.
Line 5. A bird in a cave (nesting hole) is like a baby in the womb
Line 6. The liability of parenthood.

Thank you Pocossin,

Your analysis was helpful. What happens in India frequently is that there is a lot of fantasy built around marriage so that many times post-wedding, there is a rude awakening to the realities of arranged marriages. One of those is when people are faced with the permanency of children. This is many times when people "wake up." In this case, our friend was faced with excommunication if he did not go through with the marriage. Many of these experiences are so far from the majority of the planet now face, that these experiences are far from easily understood by most. Also, after marriage, especially with a male, he will gain power and respect. His status is increased, and the roles many time reverse, and he has the authority that prior to marriage was kept from him.

We were looking for a way to help him without disturbing the ecology of his house and beliefs. So I suggested this as a way for us to see what to do, etc. We were keen to do this since he in particular would have no support from inside the family.

When I have received 62 in the past, I actually have noticed it was frequently in relation to communication--i.e., means of communication (like email text etc) and also the content. I leftt this interpretation out because I also saw this idea of a stork. I don't know what to think now, but since we as humans all know that babies do not come from storks, it is not clear to me. Further, in this situation unexpected pregnancy is unlikely since there is so much intention. One either commits to the possibility or does not. The entire family would be awaiting this event.

However, that does not exclude the possibility of an intention NOT to reproduce and fate lending a hand.

Does any of what I have written here cause a rethink of the cast?
Thank you so much for your time...g77777

Thank you g77777. In divination I give much weight to the unconscious, non-rational, and mythic because in my experience these nearly invisible background forces continue to govern human life.

I am so sorry. I wasn't making light of the stork image. Not just for the sake of our friend but for my personal learning. I reanalyzed this. I began wondering about what other hexes might denote pregnancy to see if there would have been a better reply from the Yi than 62. I was more or less uncomfortable with the line in the hexagram that discusses small undertakings not large ones ( "Action may be taken in small affairs, but not in great affairs") and wondered if that could really be representative of pregnancy. I would have thought hexagram 1 to be excellent, but then that didn't really capture accidental pregnancy. So others could benefit, I started a new thread.

The other thing is, and trust me I don't know what may be do this, I cast a yi asking what did our friend feel about his marriage and got nearly the same cast:

What does our friend think about his marriage:

Yi reply:

62.5.6

Analysis: so here It is again with line 3 missing!

Now either we could say that he thinks his marriage has become about having children because of the earluer cast or it may mean that there is actually some other process going on.

Line 5 and Line 6
I looked at Wilhelm, and he writes that in "as a high place is pictured here, the image of a flying bird has become that of flying clouds" ...and discusses not being able to find helpers...

And I draw a complete blank because line 6 talks about the bird leaving the nest and being caught in hunter's nest. This makes me wonder if our friend has attempted to leave his marriage and has been discovered and flown into the "hunter's net" producing calamity.

I really now wonder what is happening to our friend because it sounds that he is being held captive in some way in the marriage Any thoughts?


Thank you g7's

My own experience with 62 has represented a rather larger event which is assumed by others to be no big deal or par for the course. This can create a sort of all alone feeling in which the recipient feels all the smaller and insignificant, while the event itself may feel large and overwhelming. This actually makes sense when considering that that image is of a small or narrow pass through a large terrain or mountain. The objective is not to raise unhelpful and potential destructive attention while undergoing a personal trauma and fear. Giving attention to the small details is what typically saves the day from a catastrophic emotional meltdown or dramatic complications.

Meng,

That was a truly enlightening post for me, thank you! When I recollected the few times I have received the hex 62, I felt exactly that. This is what we perceive as what would be happening with our friend as well.

Further, it brings a lot of depth of meaning to the analysis.

Line 3
Using pocossin's analysis, we could say that line 3 is a fear of an accidental pregnancy.

Line 5
We had another think about this line as well. Some of us had wondered if this line might mean that he has spoken to others in the house (we even wondered if the cave was their bedroom and the bird his wife). The reason why is that from what we understand from others who went through similar things, that the person who wanted out tried to negotiate with the spouse to exit the marriage.

Line 6
This may be again the idea or fear of getting stuck or captured in the "hunter's net""(marriage) if the pregnancy hapened. This idea of being alone and emotional turmoil as being part and parcel really goes with what we believe to be happening with our dear friend.He would be terrified.

Thanks so much!

I can definitely see your connection to contraception here, and in particular line 5, which is an image of a tethered arrow shot into a cave. The arrow being the sperm, the cave being the contraceptive device. Hence thick clouds but no rain. Quite a graphic line in this case. Also h12's separation. Line 6 could easily, within this context, represent carelessness, being driven by urgency and passion, which could be due to his sexual drive or by pressure from their parents to conceive their grandchild. Line 3 similarly, which I generally paraphrase as getting ahead of oneself. This could refer to premature ejaculation, if relying on the withdrawal method of contraception.

I think your friend is fortunate to have such caring friends, concerned for his future.

Hmmm...

You know what...I am also now thinking more deeply about 62 here. Perhaps this is overthinking it, but as I was rereading the judgement and what has been written by all...I guess there is an overall sense of prophylactic behavior:

REPONDERANCE OF THE SMALL. Success.
Perseverance furthers.
Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message: It is not well to strive upward,
It is well to remain below. Great good fortune.

Given our friend's state of mind at the time of marriage and his almost numb state of distress, one of us sent him a text to his phone, courageously given how direct it was that said "whatever you do, don't get the girl pregnant. You will be jammed for life."

As I stated earlier, the only times I had ever received 62 was in relation to communications...I wonder if this could have been the "flying bird" with a message saying not to strive upward.

Lol. This could be overthinking it, but it does seems quite amazing when you think of the core ines being the womb and the outer lines...well, you get the picture.

Believe me we love our friend and as one human being to another, no one should be told that they will lose their home and their family if they want to choose another way. It is truly sad that we as humans are still not evoved enough to allow others the freedom of their hearts. We all would expect a rather long tortured life or an unnecessary divorce.

g77777 said:

Hmmm...

You know what...I am also now thinking more deeply about 62 here. Perhaps this is overthinking it, but as I was rereading the judgement and what has been written by all...I guess there is an overall sense of prophylactic behavior:

REPONDERANCE OF THE SMALL. Success.
Perseverance furthers.
Small things may be done; great things should not be done.
The flying bird brings the message: It is not well to strive upward,
It is well to remain below. Great good fortune.

Given our friend's state of mind at the time of marriage and his almost numb state of distress, one of us sent him a text to his phone, courageously given how direct it was that said "whatever you do, don't get the girl pregnant. You will be jammed for life."

As I stated earlier, the only times I had ever received 62 was in relation to communications...I wonder if this could have been the "flying bird" with a message saying not to strive upward.

Lol. This could be overthinking it, but it does seems quite amazing when you think of the core ines being the womb and the outer lines...well, you get the picture.

Believe me we love our friend and as one human being to another, no one should be told that they will lose their home and their family if they want to choose another way. It is truly sad that we as humans are still not evoved enough to allow others the freedom of their hearts. We all would expect a rather long tortured life or an unnecessary divorce.

Click to expand...

Yes, I understand what you're saying, and that you believe it's worthy of consideration, that the reading spoke to offering your collective advice rather than to your friend's dilemma. It's possible; the Yi does sometimes speak to the questioner rather than directly to the question. That's something for you to discern.

However, I only wish I had taken heed to my father's council, which was like yours to your friend. I say this late enough in my life to have experienced enough ramifications of my rambunctious sexual behavior in my youth to clearly say this. I believe that a thoughtfully planned and willful parenthood is most often a wiser choice than being pressured either by youthful lust or by family pressure to produce offspring. You haven't forced your friend to act one way or another, you've only offered something worthy of his consideration. At least that's my opinion.

g77777 said:

Question:

Has x dexided to have a baby with y?

Context:

A number of us have a friend we are concerned about as the person was forced into an arranged marriage by family members.We are concerned and have respectfully guided not to take on having children at this stage as we are more non traditional. Due to this, we do not have so much access to our friend and are concerned whether we should find a way. To avoid conflict, we asked the Yi about the situation.

Yi's reply:

62 3.5.6>12

Analysis:

62 is one of those hexes with which I haven't had much experience.From what I read, it suggests internal conflict or pressure from the outside with a strong internal resistance. The lines are weak on the outside. I am not sure if this is a correct view, but I was thinking of someone with a strong inner core, but with a sort of weak exterior. Not sure. The general feeling is one of conflict, tension, etc.


Line 3

Because we believe our friend to be fighting against having children since the marriage was forced, I took this line to maybe suggest that our friend is taking extreme caution against pregnancy and using contraception or other methods like abstinence/avoidance, knowing that it would be unwise to be careless.

Line 5

This seems to suggest that though the situation is tricky (clouds but no rain), our friend has managed to stand mostly alone and may have had to find support from others outside the family or has found help from someone not wanting to involve him or herself because the line the hunter has made his shot and retreated to his cave with his bounty. This also could mean however that our friend is engaging in risky behavior but has managed not to get his spouse pregnant.

Line 6

He passes him by, not meeting him.
The flying bird leaves him. Misfortune.
This means bad luck and injury.

We debated this and thought that maybe our friend may be refusing to "meet" her and is wanting to leave. This obviously would bring on injury as the family would disapprove. We in part took this view because of the resulting hex 12.

Hex 12
We are seeing this as a stalemate between our friend and his family.

Is this a reasonable interpretation? We want to not embarass him or unnecessarily add pressure by triggering more family pressure and fights.

Thank you in advance for your time.

Click to expand...

In your shoes I wouldn't bother with this question...its a pointless question..you are asking "has x decided to have a baby with Y". Well its either yes or no and you could toss a coin for that...though I suppose theres a 'maybe' and where does this question get you.....you still don't know for sure...this answer doesn't tell you either way for sure, and it may well refer to you and your friends involvement.

I guess i feel a more useful question would be along the lines of "what can I/we do to help our friend" . A simple way as you say for him not to have kids is not to have sex....if hes been forced to this degree it shouldn't be hard. How are men forced into marriage anyway ? pardon my ignorance its just wihtout physical force why can't any adult man marry who he wants. Can it help him to have friends speculating at a distance as to whether he is abstaining from sex or not ?! And then thinking the I Ching will tell them if he is having sex ??

I think its better in the main to ask from your own perspective to get a clear answer.

There is no need to apologize for not having experienced profound psychological and emotional distress. If anything, please be grateful.

One can be forced to married if an entire set of people set about in such a way to make it happen. A more understandable example for many is the Holocaust. One asks the same question: how could even one person much less millions of people engage and condone the systematic death of other humans? How after that did people believe it didn't happen at all?

Or how do terrorists become terrorists?

It is not about ignorance as much as inexperience.

Forcing someone into marriage happens by putting profound psychological pressure on sensitive humans whose desire to love his or her family manifests in profound human sacrifice. Money, honor, societal appearances make a Molotov cocktail.

We know what we can do to help our friend...that is why the question wasn't posed. It is the what we can't do that formed our motivation to ask the Yi. We cannot in cultural terms intervene directy. Some societies say one thing, do another. Further most of your actions are not for the one, but the many). This is atypical for other societies. It wouldn't come naturally to ask if x is having sex with y because in arranged marriages the primary purpose for sex is not pleasure but procreation. Naturally, the question asked about x is related to the key concern of pregnancy. We do not care whether he is having sex. For that we would not intervene or distrupt or disturb. As his friends, our chief concern is that in this now even more fragile state (the self-betrayal, guilt, fear can be overwhelming), we act without contributing negatively. Much of life in some societies is not by direct experience. We are forced to approximate, not asking direct questions, not giving direct answers.

We cannot know how our approach may help our friend. We cannot risk humilating him further or by isolating him further. Acting has consequences. In this case, the family is like a lion with its cub, fiercely protective, alarmingly fast and dangerous is roused. Enormous sums of money are involved and if lost, woud only bring about more shame and dishonor to our frien since those sums may represent survival to numerous people.

It is sad, as you point out, that we do not have more direct means. We looked to the yi to provide us with some picture before considering taking more direct action. This is a time when this practice is gasping for its last breath. Our friend is a bridge for the new.

We do appreciate your input regardless. A wide range of experience and perspectives is alwyas welcomed.

G7's

this was just too tempting not to add that perspective in (oh and do add quotation marks in 'self-destructive' cause it assumes we know how the world should operate on every level and case) . . a rather thin line there to assume that anyone needs saving from themselves or their environment -or is it their one-sidedness??
just saying

« helpers . . .
making a difference? . . .
April 1, 2012 by mulberryshoots

Yesterday, we were having lunch with a friend when the conversation veered to someone we were all concerned about. It soon became apparent that there were two vastly different world views which we felt strongly about. One was, “who am I to judge, criticize or interfere with someone else, even if they are being self-destructive?” The other was, “how can we sit idly by and not try to help in some way?” The former was to strictly mind our own business while living and let live. The other was to take action in some way to make things better, to influence or intervene for a positive change.

Let me just say that during this conversation, we also voiced past examples where no manner of intervention worked to stop someone from doing something self-destructive, whether it be throwing their health away or other worldly goods. So, even trying to do something didn’t necessarily make a difference.

These two vastly different views about our role in life also serve to polarize our society politically, it seems to me: those who want to be left alone to sink or swim on one’s own efforts; and those who feel it is an obligation to help “those in need.” I didn’t realize until now how different these basic attitudes were and how strongly they are held in our present society.

One of the CEO’s I worked with in biotech years ago liked to say: “There are only two kinds of people in the world: simplifiers and complicators.” That adage, I think is true. The one above is more complex and grey rather than black and white.

Nobody likes to be told what to do, and not everyone wants to see things differently, that’s for sure. So where does that leave us?

Click to expand...

http://mulberryshoots.com/2012/04/01/making-a-difference-2/


back to sleep now for me

Rodaki,

I enjoyed your post.

We debated all before we posed our question to the Yi. We continued our question on the basis of 2 points. One our friend did everything to avoid the marriage including spending months not speaking to to his family in an effort to make them realize his unhappiness. In a society where one is rarely alone during the day, this was quite an act. Two we asked ourseves what we would want our friends to do for us. Would we want them to aid? The answer was a unanimous "yes."

Your post reminded me of a video I had seen of a mall in America where someone had been brutally beaten while others looked on. Sometimes we do not have the strength or experience to help ourselves and require the aid of others.

I being more than spiritual than others went a step further...if we know someone is in trouble is it not our duty to aid? Beyond that, maybe this whole experience is about the higher level of how love demonstrates itself. If your friend is an alcholic, do you look on and do nothing? This is definitely not appropriate to go on and on this site which focus is the Yi, but to finish it off, I think about the movie "walk the ine" about johnny cash. Wasn't he saved? Who or what saved him? Wasn't it a series of events and/or people?

Meng offered us the answer--I wish I would have known or listened. (Thank you, Meng, for your courage and sharing). We never know when we are being saved or saving.

Isn't the Yi our way of saving ourselves?
G7's

g77777 said:

Rodaki,

I enjoyed your post.


Your post reminded me of a video I had seen of a mall in America where someone had been brutally beaten while others looked on. Sometimes we do not have the strength or experience to help ourselves and require the aid of others.

I being more than spiritual than others went a step further...if we know someone is in trouble is it not our duty to aid? Beyond that, maybe this whole experience is about the higher level of how love demonstrates itself. If your friend is an alcholic, do you look on and do nothing? This is definitely not appropriate to go on and on this site which focus is the Yi, but to finish it off, I think about the movie "walk the ine" about johnny cash. Wasn't he saved? Who or what saved him? Wasn't it a series of events and/or people?

Meng offered us the answer--I wish I would have known or listened. (Thank you, Meng, for your courage and sharing). We never know when we are being saved or saving.


Isn't the Yi our way of saving ourselves?
G7's

Click to expand...

you know of course that it's practically impossible to have any kind of discussion with someone who makes such gross over-simplified analogies as that highlighted, - especially when it's accompanied by a comment of 'enjoying' what you have just demonized in this sense!

The thing is, if someone wants to engage in a 'saviour-saved' dynamics (which is clearly distinct of the case of answering someone's plight for help) they'll do so no matter what, so I'll leave you to your high-minded spiritual discussion while I practice my right of non-entanglement


btw, personally, I don't use the Yi as a way to save myself, neither am I looking for such a thing as being saved -too catholic for my tastes

Trojan did you really find that to be a useful post? Denigrating Catholics? Insulting people looking for help? Rodaki did you really help to illuminate the Yi or do we know more about you now than the Yi.

Please find a way to be civil.

Since your intentions were not to help but to judge, you jumped to some conclusions. One of which was the parallel of the physical beating in the video to the emotional "beating" of our friend.

We are only trying to help our friend by whatever means we have. And we never used the word "save." You did.

All of us

PS one of us is an Italian-American.

You know I have been reading your posts for a few years in the archives/memorzing threadsand both of you have demonstrated a lot of skill, insight and talent. It is for this reason that the question got posed here.I really don't know why it became so personal. I just really feel upset that a thread that could benefit others is now permanently soured.

Let's remove these posts so that the thread can truly benefit people.

And, yes, Trojan...I don't know where your post is now that came in our email but we are aware of the definition of what a Catholic is. The rest of us looked it up. We don't mind being universally human or liberally minded, but only the religious defnition is linked to saving/saviour that is referred to by rodaki.

well, I see nothing in my post as denigrating or personal, I just offered you a piece of writing that discussed yours and the opposite points of view without any further judgement to allow a more balanced or complete idea of 'right' to arise. I'm sorry that you felt you had to jump at it and complain about it as if it was an attack to your persons but I see nothing that is insulting in my posts. In fact, expressing difference was meant to enrich the approach to your readings. I have already asked for your post 16 to be moved in moderation area because I find it misrepresents what I was putting forth, and now it's up to those responsible for moving posts to decide what they think should be done.

'Saving' was a term you used extensively in your post 13 to speak of your view of friends, responsibility and Yi -it was never my word in the first place. After seeing your reaction I have nothing more to add to this discussion so I'd rather you stopped addressing your posts to me.

g77777 said:

There is no need to apologize for not having experienced profound psychological and emotional distress. If anything, please be grateful.One can be forced to married if an entire set of people set about in such a way to make it happen. A more understandable example for many is the Holocaust. One asks the same question: how could even one person much less millions of people engage and condone the systematic death of other humans? How after that did people believe it didn't happen at all?

Or how do terrorists become terrorists?

It is not about ignorance as much as inexperience.

Forcing someone into marriage happens by putting profound psychological pressure on sensitive humans whose desire to love his or her family manifests in profound human sacrifice. Money, honor, societal appearances make a Molotov cocktail.




G7's

Click to expand...

you claim you have no idea why things 'turned sour'...how about the above underlined to start...do you really presume to know what I have or haven't suffered. I find that quite a snide comment unless i have misunderstood you ?

I was aplogising for cutural ignorance not ignorance of lack of suffering...but FWIW if your friend was too weak to refuse to get married then its up to him to figure out what to do, you can't save him. Judging by your previous threads your real interest is that you wanted to be with him perhaps ? Even given extreme cultural pressure i still don't see how a person still doesn't have free will ultimately...particularly a male, much harder for females to resist arranged marriages


In any case I think Dora was right you then bought up extemely bizarre comparisons...good grief we've had the comparison to the holocaust as a reason your friend got married....and terrorism...and you seemed to wilfully misunderstand Doaras point....which was a good one, a nuanced one. She was offering several ways to look at it...which clarified to me actually no of course you can't save an adult male who has chosen to get married from his marriage by trying to ascertain if he had sex with and impregnated his wife basically

Apart from all that your question has got you nowhere...as i tried to point out. You still don't know if his wife is pregnant, it wasn't a helpful question. You are no further forward....you are scouting about in several threads in the forum trying to find the hexagram that means pregnancy for sure...etc and you aren't getting anywhere in terms of knowing any facts.

Oh yes you may as well stop addressing posts to me too. There are plenty of others here for you to engage with.

It seems to me that these are basic misunderstandings. Reading this through would require that you want to resolve them.

rodaki said:

this was just too tempting not to add that perspective in (oh and do add quotation marks in 'self-destructive' cause it assumes we know how the world should operate on every level and case) . . a rather thin line there to assume that anyone needs saving from themselves or their environment -or is it their one-sidedness??
just saying

Click to expand...

Then there was a story you provided that said there are two types of people "simplifiers and complicators."

In the last line is where the word "saving" begins that you say was started by me/us, which maybe now you can see came from you.

To me the point behind this post was that you were posing the questiona: were we assuming our friend needed help and that we might be complicating matters and further ignoring a metaphysical order to the Universe?" Were we perhaps interfering or imposing our own values onto our friend and trying to "save" him, falling prey to the saviour/saving dynamic?

Your point was not based on the Yi but something you wondered about. I did not take offense. I wrote that i enjoyed your post and thanked you for the post. Later, you seemed to mock that which I still don't understand.

In reply i summarized how we came to the decision of helping our friend and how watching our friend's will being beaten down reminded me of that video.

Then I went on to say that as a person more inclined to the spiritual more than my other friends, I discussed my point of views on helping others using your use of the word "save."And thought of Johnny Cash and explicitly said this discussion was falling outside the discussion on the Yi and wasn't going to go into depth. The point of Johnny Cash was that June did not "save" him by throwing her own life away but from my view, by holding standards. But the greater point was that many people play a role in healing others all day long which may be "saving" that I cannot say, but was just generally discussing that without getting too deep.

And your reply to that post I found really surprising. Your tone turned defnesive and aggressive and the two issues presented were gross over-generalizations and the use of the word "saving" which again was derived from your original post and saying it was too Catholic for your taste.

I don't know how that was a gross generalization or who gets to determine that or why you took offense. That is what we experienced and saw happen to our friend. The breaking of his will was a violent experience. Which is why I had said to Trojan be grateful you are unaware. I wasn't being condescending, I was saying only what I said--it can be traumatic.

Bottomline: to every point raised I spent time trying to make it understood, why the question, why the concern, what the concern was, and used expamples that were more universal than anecdotal, like the Holocaust. There seems to have been a misunderstanding there as well...I was discussing how possible it is with societal pressure and psychological and emotional means to make good people submit. I didn't have another examle that all could appreciate quickly that could explain how one can and does get forced against their will and how it doesn't necessarily mean they are weak but could be a certain set of circumstances. It was an extrapolation if you thought that I was saying that our friend's experience was akin to the Holocaust.

I cannot even begin to address the whole thing of "maybe you wanted to be your friend's wife." Where that comes from is wholly known only to the individual who wrote it, and, honestly, I cannot fathom the point of that one. Why not just ask if that is so important to you? Why accuse? Who decides the purpose of the Yi or what is the proper Use. I cannot imagine that Yi was never use to predict conception or the potential for conception.

I don't think that

g77777 said:

Rodaki,

I enjoyed your post.

We debated all before we posed our question to the Yi. We continued our question on the basis of 2 points. One our friend did everything to avoid the marriage including spending months not speaking to to his family in an effort to make them realize his unhappiness. In a society where one is rarely alone during the day, this was quite an act. Two we asked ourseves what we would want our friends to do for us. Would we want them to aid? The answer was a unanimous "yes."

Your post reminded me of a video I had seen of a mall in America where someone had been brutally beaten while others looked on. Sometimes we do not have the strength or experience to help ourselves and require the aid of others.

I being more than spiritual than others went a step further...if we know someone is in trouble is it not our duty to aid? Beyond that, maybe this whole experience is about the higher level of how love demonstrates itself. If your friend is an alcholic, do you look on and do nothing? This is definitely not appropriate to go on and on this site which focus is the Yi, but to finish it off, I think about the movie "walk the ine" about johnny cash. Wasn't he saved? Who or what saved him? Wasn't it a series of events and/or people?

Meng offered us the answer--I wish I would have known or listened. (Thank you, Meng, for your courage and sharing). We never know when we are being saved or saving.

Isn't the Yi our way of saving ourselves?
G7's

Click to expand...

I agree on the part where there have been misunderstandings here. I came to post here the story I did because I thought that for a discussion that involves another person's life, it was turning into a very one-sided one. It didn't mean that you are complicating things but that you and your company (and, I'm guessing, pretty much your friend's family) all feel very strongly on what would be the best for your friend's life, when the fact is, your friend has made a decision. You might feel it's the wrong one, but asking Yi under these assumptions and starting a conversation under ONLY these assumptions is only a way imo to justify how wrong the decision is.

I only used the term 'saved' in my post once and rather lightly. It wasn't the center of my thought at that point and it still isn't. Your choice to stay with it and further discuss about it shows, in my eyes that it forms big part of how you see the world and that's you. I don't agree with it, it doesn't fall within how I think things should be guided but many people do -so long as it is not imposed on me, I'm fine with it.

Finally, you might try to show otherwise, but saying that

Your post reminded me of a video I had seen of a mall in America where someone had been brutally beaten while others looked on

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is rather hard to misunderstand. What I was trying to say with my post, was not that people should not help those in need (no idea how my post reminded you of such a cruel act, now seriously) but that people should think twice on whether their help goes to someone in need and asking for it, or to someone who makes decisions that go contrary to yours/mine/anyone's own better judgement and that's also the reason why I have no wish to argue with you. If what I post can make anyone take into account a different pov that's fine and if they don't want to, that's fine also.


p.s.: as a parenthesis, J. Cash to had to ask and ask and ask again his future wife June to take him in and help him (or, at least, that's how the story goes).

I appreciate your post.

I don't know how to say what I want to write without getting into another misunderstanding, but I want to take the risk and come to a better place.

You don't know this but I have been reading and studying the archives for 2 years. After some time, you come to learn a lot through the postings of others about their personalities.

Please take this as a compliment: I find that you and Trojan are very independent thinkers. Trojan has a very no nonsense approach that I appreciate. There is a clear cut philosophy on how to use the Yi. Also many times Trojan tells people stop using the Yi to find out how so and so feels: ask. So this reading by approximation would draw the same response. There again that very practical, grounded, direct reality approach.

My recollections of your posts reflect more of "freeing yourself up" from limitations or "enlightening" philosophy of breaking down barriers and conformity, finding your true path, etc.

These two philosophies woudnt gel well with a group of friends in an intensely communal culture with intense societal expecatations and mores trying to help a friend from afar. So concerned with matching constraints.

There is also a very different experience of "decisions" here. In a communal culture, decisions are made by groups not individuals, not for the one, but for the many. All key decisions for marriage, money, living quarters, everything happens through a very complex decision matrix that is highly subjective and majority/minority. Again with the example -) )...I am thinking of a book written by Queen Noor, an American who married the King of Jordan in which she wrote about her adjustment to having even a seemingly minor decision run though a complicated system of people and priorities. This is a very different mindset than many parts of the World where individualism reigns and boundaries and privacy are non negotiable.

I think actually the whole thing got overly dramatic, which woudnt surprise me because our language would reflect that. We do feel pushed and part of it that is a part of the mindset we operating in. We tend to get into that life and death, drama space. So that may also be what got the reaction.

Obviously, we cannot really hope to have others agree who have not seen how this kind of scenario plays out, but we all have. The practical situation is that we were looking to find out whether he HAD taken a decision. We didn't choose the reply. We don't want to know about his sex life. We would have loved more of a yes/no hex--59, 55, 58, 2, 33, 39 etc etc, but we didn't get one!

We only want him to be happy. Friends here do get involved and, yes, sometimes too much, but then one wonders what is better...

g77777 said:

but then one wonders what is better...

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and each one has to find their own answer, the place where their own inner balance lies in that

g77777 said:

.


I cannot even begin to address the whole thing of "maybe you wanted to be your friend's wife." Where that comes from is wholly known only to the individual who wrote it, and, honestly, I cannot fathom the point of that one. Why not just ask if that is so important to you? Why accuse? Who decides the purpose of the Yi or what is the proper Use. I cannot imagine that Yi was never use to predict conception or the potential for conception.

I don't think that

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well this is just one of a few previous threads where you, as an American, describe how the one you love is being forced into marriage http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=11648 So surely its not too hard to see where that idea comes from. I haven't accused you of anything, I only asked you something and this isn't important to me.

heres another one made me think thisis about the same guy you now speak of http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=13758

....and another, where i answered http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=13804


now I suggested your motive to 'helping' this 'friend' was that he was actually the guy you wrote about in these previous threads and you say you really cannot fathom where that came from....but If he wasn't you have to admit there are so many similarities in your description of the situation it would be a fairly easy conclusion to come to


So is it really the case you want to know if his wife is pregnant cos you still want a chance to be with him ?

The previous threads just make me lean heavily towards that conclusion...and afterall theres no shame in wanting someone who is unavailable....or being let down by someone who made promises ..no need to disguise it under the veil of 'helping' him really, or attack people here who can easily see theres some mismatch underlying the motive of the question.....creating a kind of turbulence because the mismatch... its noticable




Happy Easter !