#37: Your Family Is Not Quite Correct

[Trojina]

(I thought she was referring to petrosiani )

 

[fkegan]

King Wen Sequence and Tetraktys

Perhaps the calendar change that changed me from junior member to member combined with entry of Pluto fully into the 1 Capricorn 01 is giving me more visibility. Actually, I have published my perspective in 5 books in the 1980's and worked out the King Wen Sequence from Pythagorean tetraktys after reading The Pythagorean Sourcebook and Library. I even went over it briefly in a post on this site back in my junior member days.

I also was on Hex 8 back in the day, and I have both the landscape pdf and Scott Davis open in my browser from the links given here, thank you. I will read them in due course.

Hillary-- my tetraktys page just went online this week, I got absorbed in the threads here before I got around to announcing it in I Ching News. Also new is the Stars-n-Dice Perspective (or process) page that explains what my work is all about and a page about PTSD politics using Socrates' mental problems from the defeat at the Battle of Delium to illustrate how politics gets skewed by those (like Plato) whose mentors (like Socrates) filled their heads with their nightmares which were taken on faith to be reality.

The sets of hexagrams by 8 were developed to make it easier to remember the names and structures. The actual change in Sequence from the older binary number counting or circle of those binary numbers marking out a sine-wave or T'ai Chi patterns were based in the primitive binary math and sine wave physics we in the West use today.

The revised King Wen Sequence, which dear ol' Legge noted was occult in origin is part of the new understanding of the integrated Cosmos which came to global awareness in the 6th century BCE with Lao Tzu, Pythagoras, etc. I do not believe folks will be finding dice cubes in Chinese tombs of the period, it is not a concrete transmission but a 100th monkey--or the time is ripe for everyone to make their own realization of the same insight.
There was one of those in the late 60's era when the insights of The Historical Jesus (not quite the same as in the Gospels) were re-experienced by folks in their own ways all over the globe.

I learned the about the tetraktys from applying it to the King Wen Sequence. I didn't know much of anything from what fragments persist in the Sourcebook. From that matrix it is truly everything the ancients said it was and more. The Yi unfolds as its majesty as the simple line patterns and the four perspectives work together.


Nancy-
Stags running against each other's antlers is actually a highly sophisticated and humane way to apportion territory according to strength, health, and ability to make the best use of that resource for the greater good of the species (something rare amongst humans, especially since the Guns, germs, steel and frigates made global conquest so much more attractive). Thus to see such lofty natural process on this thread is quite a compliment.

Frank

 

[emc2cme]

Replies to "Field" remark...

Touche, Hilary. THAT'S the kind of response I understand and respect. But sometimes I wonder just whose field this is...

Hi, Luis. I think this thread degenerated from neutral comments to territorial one-upmanship. One can see it slipping from philosophical to ego-driven, from message to message. You mentioned Dobro's name, not me. He wasn't the only one...And, is the conversation jumping track because I protest the manner in which the conversation was being conducted by supposed scholars? I suggest that it jumped track the minute it went from philosophical to personal. In all the threads I've studied (and I'll have to admit I'm still in the process of reading the archives), you've been nothing but informative, scholarly, funny and to-the-point. I've seen you support a lot of people, but never undermine or attack them.

Dobro. Yes, you're right. There's a bit of sarcasm and implied criticism in the "stags in the field" message. I'm fifty-four years old--no spring chicken--and have been involved in a lot of political/philosophical/educational endeavors in my time. There is a way that men fight for dominance in these (and other) fields that I find particularly distressing, time-consuming and boring. It sounds sexist, and may be, but I see women fighting in other ways, and this ego-bashing seems to be a particularly "male" endeavor. It's like they don't go right for the jugular--they have to play at fighting so that other people will have time to stop them before it gets too nasty. Or maybe it's like they're picking apart every single nuance of contention and savoring the delicacy of their response. It implies that other people are watching (which we are) and caring (which I, at least, mostly am not).

Now, Dobro, you ask if I think that this is animal behavior. I think most of our behavior is either hormonal or primal, and we're just beginning to understand (in the past few million years or so) what it is to be human (which, btw, may just be totally mutant behavior). I don't think that it's a case of animal/spiritual being bad/good. To be truthful, I think it's appalling that the animal or material ("mater" or "mother") is considered the opposite of the spiritual, as if the material were bad or as if we could somehow "outgrow" being animal/human and become a totally spiritual being. I just think that we should be aware of our behavior, and decide whether or not it is serving a function in this particular time or place. Preening, baiting, territoriality and other "animal" (aka "human") behaviors may function for some of us, some of the time. But there are other behaviors that might serve better. This particular thread, started by Eric and others, regards dysfunctional families. If we could do one thing that would help us sort out our experiences of being from dysfunctional families, or to help us make our own families "functional" (or beyond that, joyful, loving, caring, nurturing, strong, powerful, etc.), then this thread will have served its purpose. Otherwise, it's just nattering.

 

[emc2cme]

And Frank. I understand about the stag performance, and agree that it's more
"humane" than just bashing each others' brains out. I have a son who has gone through his teen years, a daughter who drew a bevy of boys, and taught adolescents for about thirty years. But I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss how a particular hexagram relates to dysfunctional families and to learn from it, not to reenact the same old dysfunctional behavior of one-upmanship.

Hilary has gone to a great deal of time and trouble (not that she needs or wants my defense of her site) to create a "field" where the Yi can be honored, loved and learned from. I'm just not sure that engaging in territorial behavior shows honor or respect for Hilary or the Yi.

What began as an observation has now turned into the kind of thing to which I objected in the first place. I'm beginning to defend myself and I don't want to waste bandwidth doing that. So with a bow to the scholar in all of you, I'll just say "good afternoon". I'm going to take my daughter and granddaughter to the park so we can enjoy this beautiful afternoon.

 

[hilary]

Hope you enjoyed the park. My brother and I had a very scenic train ride home between bright sun and spectacular storm clouds, with a couple of rainbows.

One thing I've noticed over a few years of this forum: different people have different tolerance levels/ thresholds for conflict, so one person's interesting debate is another person's ferocious attack. These differences add (*cough*) interest to encounters online and off. (BTW, would you agree the male of the species tends to have a higher threshold?) Anyway, it's a nice, big, spacious field.

And now I should think I've comprehensively derailed the thread. Sorry about that.

 

[dobro p]

Hilary has gone to a great deal of time and trouble (not that she needs or wants my defense of her site) to create a "field" where the Yi can be honored, loved and learned from. I'm just not sure that engaging in territorial behavior shows honor or respect for Hilary or the Yi.

From where I'm sitting this comment is completely non-territorial or testosterone-driven, coming from both the dry, intellectual part of me and also a more balanced concern for the what's true -

Thanks for elaborating on your idea of the animal-based behaviors in us all. I found it unusual though that you highlighted the negative aspect of the male of the species and didn't describe the female variant, which is what I was really hoping you'd supply. (What? Girls' egos don't contend?) But as for honoring and learning from the Yi, that's exactly why I engaged with petrosianii in the first place - you see, I find his ideas pretty suspect and not true to the Yi, and I wanted to point this out, both for his sake and others' - I thought I did this pretty politely, without any direct attacks on petrosianii. Not only that, but I also thought that petrosianii's internet style leaves a lot to be desired - I raised a lot of what I thought were valid points, and he chose not to answer one of them (unlike yourself - I mean, you either care about this stuff or care about politeness enough to have responded to my post to you). One of the reasons I challenged him on stuff he'd said was to find out if he knew what he was talking about, and the other reason was to see if maybe I could learn something more about the Yi. The conclusion I've drawn is that petrosianii cares more about drama than about the Yi or clear thinking or playing nicely with others. So, if you see my behavior as territorial, I'd be interested in you helping me to see it as well, cuz I thought that for the most part, the differences of opinion in this thread were expressed in a pretty civilized way, and in a way completely acceptable to this site. In other words, show me how differences of opinion can be expressed in a better way. Show me how women do it.

 

[fkegan]

What is dysfunctional about a yang line in an even numered place?

Nancy--
The thread started by Eric jumped from hex 37 --The Family in Wilhelm, Homing in Flux Tome, Family Member in Gia-Fu Feng's Taoist translation to the notion of dysfunctional families based upon the English word "incorrect" used to describe the yang line in the top place which as an even 6th place is incorrect or not congruent between line value and line place.

There was a bit of a challenge in the original thread,"Your family is not quite correct" and folks responded in their posts to both the implications of hexagram 37, the entire decad from hexagram 31, and the modern notion of dysfunctional family. The spat that so disturbed you was an excellent expression in context of hexagram 38--the other pole of hexagram 37 and your outburst was a good attempt to be the eldest daughter whose absence is noted in Wilhelm. Even down to the feminist-teacher rant about keeping to the text and not talking with your neighbor.

Personally, having turned 60 and still very much feeling my youngest son origins, I just didn't much notice the dust up though I did notice the attempts to claim "the field" and clear the sibling rivalry by brute authority. Male ego and female ego express themselves differently but with the same deviation from proper conduct. Boys may scrap and little girls speak out their barbs, but only teachers can truly twist and distort all their students' souls to fit into their strangely inappropriate desks.

We each have our unique perspective and personal realities which show themselves in our posts. Judging one another has its own karma (judging begets judging)

The thread is weaving its way into the tapestry of I Ching remarks both by what is objectively said and what is subjectively demonstrated. The difficulties of the thread arose organically from the limitations in the original premise. They will work themselves out in the continuing conversation.

Returning to Eric's original point, if hexagram 37 were correct in its line structure it would be hexagram 63 a fundamental logical contradiction. Hexagram 37 is thus not hex 63 After Completion or The Morning After because it brings in the Yang energy in the line at the top. Wilhelm notes the rulers of the hexagram are the Yang line in the fifth and Yin line in the 2nd as they represent the fundamental marriage partners that create the family.

That yang line in the 6th place would not be the grandfather, since 37 is about the Family as the outgrowth of the marriage relationship not the social structure or genealogy of all the folks in the family household. The yang line in the first place would not be a baby son, it is about the origin of the family as an independent unit built upon the privacy of the marriage bed.

The yang line in the 6th place represents a focus upon the transition toward the Next as the family is judged by its future results in terms the success of the children when they grow up and form their own families (basic society elder perspective, which is also Darwinian Natural Selection or philosophical Karma or Justice).

The hexagram, despite having a yang line in the 6th, structurally incorrect in detail, the notion of dysfunctional family doesn't appear. Whatever the inner dynamics within the walls of the home, it is only the results in the future development that is part of the notion of the family. Like smoke rising from fire, carrying the essence of the fire in the smell of its smoke-- it is not the burning passions of the fire but the heavenly destination of the smoke of the smoke that expresses its meaning in an ancient Chinese perspective of sacred burnt offerings.

The more I focus upon the lines of the hexagrams, the more I am awed and delighted by the wisdom packed into such simple elegant symbolism.

Frank

 

[hilary]

Women, Dobro, are often more interested in grazing . (My husband calls this intellectual sloppiness and fuzzy thinking. And oddly enough, he's also been known to interpret my responses as school-teacher-ish, so maybe - speculating wildly here - that perception of Frank's also has to do with a m/f difference?)

Frank, I'm sure the fire of 37 is in the hearth. The woman cooks at it, and I imagine the ancestors also have their place round the pot. At the 6th line, maybe...? It's a place for fu, a prerequisite for good offerings.

BTW -

I thought that for the most part, the differences of opinion in this thread were expressed in a pretty civilized way, and in a way completely acceptable to this site.

- me, too.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi, Luis. I think this thread degenerated from neutral comments to territorial one-upmanship. One can see it slipping from philosophical to ego-driven, from message to message. You mentioned Dobro's name, not me. He wasn't the only one...And, is the conversation jumping track because I protest the manner in which the conversation was being conducted by supposed scholars? I suggest that it jumped track the minute it went from philosophical to personal. In all the threads I've studied (and I'll have to admit I'm still in the process of reading the archives), you've been nothing but informative, scholarly, funny and to-the-point. I've seen you support a lot of people, but never undermine or attack them.

Thank you Nancy. Mentioning Dobro was meant as a joke for him... He knows that...

 

[emc2cme]

Reply to Hilary, Dobro, Frank and Luis

Okay, I had most of this answered and accidentally sent it out to cyberspace, so I'm not going to go into as much detail as I normally would (and did). But for now:

First of all, thanks, Hilary. I did have a great time in the park with my daughter and granddaughter, and am glad you had a good timeon the train with your brother. The storm, sun and rainbow experience sounds like a metaphor for this discussion right now, I'm thinking.

Dobro. I see that you're not unfamiliar with sarcasm, either. I couldn't begin to tell you how to respond, except to say that over the years, I've learned that both "masculine" and "feminine" strategies have their uses. I don't see that Eric was being deliberately obtuse or evil in his comments. I think he saw a way to shore up the original author of the #37 post with some personal comments on his own experience. If we're now going to discount experience as being of no importance, then I'm more than happy to drop out. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the scholarly as well as the personal conversation that teaches me so much about the Yi.

Frank. First, I'd like to say that you are truly astounding in your ignorance about me--you have no idea what kind of teacher I am, or how hard I've worked over the last thirty years to reform education in my state. As a matter of fact, the last time I was hired to teach, I was asked what I'd change about the district, and I said everything, I'd tear it down and start all over again--which I then proceeded to do (which included my being one of the first to be granted a co-partnership of a charter school, and my current involvement with our state's virtual schools program). So you can keep your snarky comments about teachers to yourself. Second, I'd like to thank you for illuminating us on Hexagram 37. You've given us a lot to think about.

And Luis. I know why you made your comment;-) You're always gently poking fun, which is a good reminder to keep us on the light side...

 

[dobro p]

Dobro. I see that you're not unfamiliar with sarcasm, either.

You see nothing of the kind. I know how to be sarcastic, but I put nothing in that last post of mine to you that was intended as sarcasm. You're seeing something that isn't there.

I couldn't begin to tell you how to respond, except to say that over the years, I've learned that both "masculine" and "feminine" strategies have their uses.

I didn't ask you for help in how I can respond; I asked you to describe the way in which women differ with each other that might be different than the 'locking antlers' method you were denigrating earlier on. I suppose you either don't want to, or can't, do that?

I don't see that Eric was being deliberately obtuse or evil in his comments.

Neither do I.

 

[fkegan]

Education reform and hexagram 37

Hexagram 37 is about the family as the relationship of smoke to fire that is what is produced and sent heavenward from the combustion--a rather abstract image but when put back into the concrete context of an ancient Chinese family quite insightful.

In line 2, the yin ruler of the hexagram is instructed to disappear wherever to prepare food for human and religious use under the husband's instruction. Not quite a recognition of the importance of the hearth to the family. The smoke and fire of the hexagram is not a cooking hearth--consider the Ting in hexagram 50--no fire or food preparation there, that is done out of sight and then placed in the Ting for ceremonial display (not really a cauldron, but Wilhelm chose the German to describe the shape not the purpose).

The smoke and fire in hex 37 I would suggest have to do with the relationship of how wood gets consumed by fire to produce smoke that ascends upward into the next level--that is what the inner process of 37 is about which is then put back into the family metaphor for the trigram image and each line. The theme of each line is about regulating the process to produce the best final result after all is played out through the decades.

Nancy,
You and I have different opinions about education reform and about how much is changed if the students are not required to sit in class while given the same academic training as in the old millennium just past. That is different from my transgressing your unstated boundaries about your special achievements. Unfortunately, a reaction I remember from decades of education professionals when challenged about their illogical statements.

My remarks were based upon how you relate to others in your posts and how you have one set of standards for yourself and a totally different one for others.
It is more your expectations and lack of open listening that I was referring to than anything else.
I was trained as a teacher and recruited into a remarkably strange public school system, though my daughter attended the hipper virtual charter school. Outside my training I read up on education reform and was astounded at the ignorance of that movement. I also study history on a multi-millennial time frame, and the biggest problem in education now is that it is still based on the medieval Scholastic notion of the "academic" and the education reform notions highlighted in Huxley's Brave New World.

I suggest it will be more productive for you to reflect on what in you was so piqued by my aside rather than assume (with equally astounding ignorance about me) that the important issues in education reform from the '70's aren't just as obsolete today as everything else academic.

To return that education reform riff back to hexagram 37-- it is the results of the teachers' work seen in the students' adult life that matters. That is what relates to the smoke over fire of The family process.

Many of the worst problems of young adults today (the next generation from whose success and problems we judge the smoke from fire of their education) can be traced directly to the blind arrogance of the education reformers of the whole 20th century and particularly those in the last 30 years who were changing the deck chairs on the Titanic without caring about steaming full speed ahead into the ice fields or even knowing they were in them.:bows:

There is a special process to any open discussion in knowledgeable community which relates more to the hexagram 58 process than the more specialized and focused process of building a family from a marriage that is judged by the success of its children. What may seem dysfunctional to those glued to the speck in everyone else's eyes and avoiding the stick in their own also gives us all a lot to think about.

We can look for what we condemn in others or we can learn from our experience together and find examples to correct what needs correction in ourselves.

Peace and Power,
Dr. Frank R. Kegan

 

[dobro p]

This is a pretty interesting thread. It started out talking about the dysfunctional family as a possible theme of Hex 37, and if you take our little online group as a family of sorts, this thread has demonstrated bits of dysfunctionality from time to time. But the humor and balance and restraint that I've seen in it has countered that and kept it civilized. I wish my own family had been more like this thread.

 

[emc2cme]

Part I: Dobro

I apologize in advance for the format I'm using to answer Dobro's and Frank's comments, but I'm not yet accustomed to the various options here. I want to answer in as plain a way as I know how, and it's going to be difficult. Previous comments are written as is, while current responses are written within asterisks:

Quote:
Originally Posted by emc2cme
Dobro. I see that you're not unfamiliar with sarcasm, either.

You see nothing of the kind. I know how to be sarcastic, but I put nothing in that last post of mine to you that was intended as sarcasm. You're seeing something that isn't there.

**I wrote that because you said, "Thanks for elaborating on your idea of the animal-based behaviors in us all. I found it unusual though that you highlighted the negative aspect of the male of the species and didn't describe the female variant, which is what I was really hoping you'd supply. (What? Girls' egos don't contend?)" For some strange reason, I didn't really "feel" the thank you part of this response. To me it suggested (and still does) sarcasm. I apologize if that's not what you intended, since I'm not a mind-reader. You also say that you find it unusual that I highlighted the negative aspect of the male of the species. Women have their ways, as well. And I'm not suggesting that they're not interchangeable. Women can be boringly pedantic, and men can be bitchy. I said that because the remarked upon behavior was between two males of the species--you and Eric. And now another male has thrown his ego into the ring, although why, I'm not sure.**

Quote:
Originally Posted by emc2cme
I couldn't begin to tell you how to respond, except to say that over the years, I've learned that both "masculine" and "feminine" strategies have their uses.

I didn't ask you for help in how I can respond; I asked you to describe the way in which women differ with each other that might be different than the 'locking antlers' method you were denigrating earlier on. I suppose you either don't want to, or can't, do that?

**You said, "So, if you see my behavior as territorial, I'd be interested in you helping me to see it as well, cuz I thought that for the most part, the differences of opinion in this thread were expressed in a pretty civilized way, and in a way completely acceptable to this site. In other words, show me how differences of opinion can be expressed in a better way. Show me how women do it." To me, this is a pretty clear way of asking how you think a woman would respond ("show me how differences of opinion can be expressed in a better way. Show me how women do it.") . And in as equally a clear way, I thought I said that men and women, while having strategies equally effective or repugnant, aren't restricted to gender roles. In fact, that we should be pretty much beyond gender roles, since while they may be effective in instinctive or animal behavior, they seem to have developed a quasi-mutant response in people. In other words, dominance-seeking behavior served to cull out the weaker males or females; in particular, with the males, it also served to aid in the selection of the alpha male, which in turn, enhanced the breeding pool. I see nothing about dominance behavior which would enhance the breeding pool of an online forum, or enhance anything at all, for that matter.**

Quote:
Originally Posted by emc2cme
I don't see that Eric was being deliberately obtuse or evil in his comments.

Neither do I.

**You originally said, "...The conclusion I've drawn is that petrosianii cares more about drama than about the Yi or clear thinking or playing nicely with others...", which pretty much correlates with being obtuse. Perhaps you've drawn this conclusion from more than one encounter on the forum, but I don't see much in his original comments that would indicate that he is alone in caring more about drama than about the Yi, or clear thinking or playing nicely with others. Also, you yourself said that "there's also been a clash of egos, for sure." That is what the original comment was about.**

 

[emc2cme]

Part II: Frank

Same format, with my replies in **.

fkegan
Member Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 42

Nancy,

You and I have different opinions about education reform and about how much is changed if the students are not required to sit in class while given the same academic training as in the old millennium just past. That is different from my transgressing your unstated boundaries about your special achievements. Unfortunately, a reaction I remember from decades of education professionals when challenged about their illogical statements.

**I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly. Would you please clarify what you think I mean about educational reform and how you would agree or disagree with it? Until then, I don't think we have much of a basis for conversation. And I'm not sure what you mean about my "special" achievements". I've lived a life, I've done my job, I've learned some things about doing my job that would make life better for a lot of students. Is there anything "special" about that?**

My remarks were based upon how you relate to others in your posts and how you have one set of standards for yourself and a totally different one for others.

**On how I relate to others, or how I relate to you? As far as I'm concerned, my original comment referred to the nattering back and forth between Eric and Dobro. I'm not sure how you got involved in this at all, or why it concerns you.**

It is more your expectations and lack of open listening that I was referring to than anything else.

**My expectation for this forum is that we're here to learn more about the I Ching, and not to indulge in ego-gratification. And I think that my open listening was what started this in the first place--I just didn't happen to like what I was hearing and commented on it. Do you have a problem with that?**

I was trained as a teacher and recruited into a remarkably strange public school system, though my daughter attended the hipper virtual charter school.

**I happen to think that most public school systems are strange, as well as greedy and ruinous. I taught in the Kansas City, Missouri school district during one of the biggest, most expensive and fraudulent desegregation lawsuit periods in American history. As for a virtual charter school, that's a new one for me--the virtual schools in our state are based on computer instruction, where the student takes classes online. The charter schools, while having more leeway and flexibility in many areas, are oftentimes just as bad as the public schools, but they are run for-profit, have very little experience compared to public schools, and have most of the problems as public schools, in addition to having to reinvent the wheel.**

Outside my training I read up on education reform and was astounded at the ignorance of that movement.

**I wouldn't disagree with you there.**

I also study history on a multi-millennial time frame, and the biggest problem in education now is that it is still based on the medieval Scholastic notion of the "academic" and the education reform notions highlighted in Huxley's Brave New World.

**What would you have education based on? I hesitate to tell you what I consider the biggest problems in education are, since I'm fairly certain that you'll pick them apart, but just for the record: I happen to believe four basic things about education should be changed, all of which I learned from my own personal stint in school, thirty years as a teacher, and the experience of my children: 1) the system as we know it was designed primarily to funnel children into their "appropriate" places in society as employees and consumers, and not to really educate the child at all, 2) that children are much more intelligent than we give them credit for, and given the proper framework, could learn twice as much in half the time, and probably, without teachers as we know them at all, 3) that places of education should serve two functions: a) as adults, we show students what society expects of a well-educated person and b) that students have a great deal of creativity--new blood, so to speak--to bring to the table, and help create an on-going idea or norm for what "well-educated" means, and 4) some very simple changes would provide an automatic scholarship for each child to pursue the career of his/her choice upon completion of secondary studies. In addition, at present, everyone involved in education benefits from it except for the students. The parents get a built-in babysitter so that they can pursue their careers or whatever it is they do. The
"educators" get paid for whatever it is they do. The children are the ones who suffer from our disaster of an educational system, and spend the most important and formative years of their lives in a virtual prison..**

I suggest it will be more productive for you to reflect on what in you was so piqued by my aside rather than assume (with equally astounding ignorance about me) that the important issues in education reform from the '70's aren't just as obsolete today as everything else academic.

**I'm not sure what you mean when you say that something in me was piqued by an aside of yours (are you a mind-reader now as well?)--maybe you know which aside, or which part of something inside of me it is that you are referring to, but I don't. Regarding any personal suggestion that you have about my productivity, I'm inclined to say thanks, but no thanks. Having seen your web site, and scrutinized your increasingly pompous and spiralling up into the stratosphere remarks, I have little faith in your ability to even think what's best for yourself, let alone other people, since you spend so much time propping up your persona as Xyz.D and I Ching guru. Of course, that's just MHO.**

...Many of the worst problems of young adults today (the next generation from whose success and problems we judge the smoke from fire of their education) can be traced directly to the blind arrogance of the education reformers of the whole 20th century and particularly those in the last 30 years who were changing the deck chairs on the Titanic without caring about steaming full speed ahead into the ice fields or even knowing they were in them...

**Ah, now you've found a particularly juicy bone to chew on--the fact that I'm an educational reformer, so I must be like all the other educational reformers for whom you have so much disdain. Now THAT'S an example of the wisdom that I feel I can do without, thank you very much.**

**Anything else that either of you'd like to talk about, I'd be happy to discuss, though I'm fairly certain that neither of you will want to continue this in private without others to impress by your wit and wisdom. I think that we've about reached the gutter and don't need to elaborate on our personal differences here anymore. My email address is [Hilary's edit: click on Nancy's username above this post to send her a pm]. My deepest apologies to any forum members for having contributed to the unpleasantness in this thread.**

 

[hilary]

Two technical notes for you, Nancy:
1. If you highlight text in your reply and click the button shaped like a speech bubble above the posting box, that text will be formatted as a quotation.
2. If you leave your email address in plain sight online, you will get 500+ spam messages daily. Believe me - I've done it, I get them. However, this forum comes with safe ways to make private contacts: private messaging (you can edit your profile to ensure you get email notification of new messages) and also emailing (you would need to turn this back on). Click on anyone's name above their posts to access these options.

And a non-technical note: while in theory, the personal stuff is meant to be dealt with in Open Space, from time to time people take time out within a thread and say things they feel need saying. It happens... and generally any clashes blow over this way before I have time to start being officious about them. Same here, no doubt. However, if anyone wants to keep discussing education reform, you could always start a thread for it over there.

Frank -

In line 2, the yin ruler of the hexagram is instructed to disappear wherever to prepare food for human and religious use under the husband's instruction.

Beware confusing what the text says with what commentators would have liked it to have said. The line says something as simple as:
'No direction to pursue,
Stay put in the centre and cook.
Constancy, good fortune.'
Nothing about disappearing: staying in the centre, highly visible. Nothing about the husband's instructions, and come to that, nothing about a wife.

About the ding and cooking - I know it's said that these were ceremonial vessels used only to present food, not to prepare it. However, if you look at the shape of the things, it's fairly clear they were designed to cook things in. The Tuanzhuan specifically says the hexagram is about cooking, and the 'consolidation' mentioned in the Daxiang is also an effect of cooking. For me it's definitely a space for transformation.

Hexagrams - big places.

 

[lindsay]

Nancy -

Wow! What a beautifully-written rebuttal! I enjoyed every word. I hope you stick around and share more of your ideas. If you can express yourself half so well outside the heat of battle (which gets tiresome quickly and rarely lasts long in this forum), then we are all in for a treat. Nice job!

Lindsay

 

[meng]

This is the most fun I've had reading a thread in a long time. It's good to see/hear/read fresh blood, especially with such a healthy pulse.

 

[petrosianii]

great point, meng

Interesting thread. Loved Hilary's comments. Line 6 as grandparent makes lots of sense.

Evidence of family corruption is also reflected in 18, through the mother and father's methods: being too soft and too hard, too lenient and too strict, unconditional vs conditional love.

simple in its beauty and clarity, and to the point. thanks.

 

[dobro p]

Nancy, thanks for explaining your feelings and thoughts, cuz now I understand where you're coming from better. I was hoping you'd respond this way - it's so frustrating when the communication goes completely awry, and most people don't take the time to sort it out. Thanks. Stick around - this is a really good group to be part of, dysfunctionality and all.

**I wrote that because you said, "Thanks for elaborating on your idea of the animal-based behaviors in us all. I found it unusual though that you highlighted the negative aspect of the male of the species and didn't describe the female variant, which is what I was really hoping you'd supply. (What? Girls' egos don't contend?)" For some strange reason, I didn't really "feel" the thank you part of this response. To me it suggested (and still does) sarcasm. I apologize if that's not what you intended, since I'm not a mind-reader. You also say that you find it unusual that I highlighted the negative aspect of the male of the species. Women have their ways, as well. And I'm not suggesting that they're not interchangeable. Women can be boringly pedantic, and men can be bitchy. I said that because the remarked upon behavior was between two males of the species--you and Eric.

Well, okay, now I understand what you were saying. I challenged Eric's initial idea because I thought it was flawed, simple as that. I followed it up because I thought his responses contained sloppy thinking that deserved more challenge. I don't think it was territorial or ego-bashing, I think it was about maintaining standards of good thinking, but if it *was* nothing more than head-butting, I'd like to see that cuz it's interesting to me, and that's why I was pursuing it with you.

**You said, "So, if you see my behavior as territorial, I'd be interested in you helping me to see it as well, cuz I thought that for the most part, the differences of opinion in this thread were expressed in a pretty civilized way, and in a way completely acceptable to this site. In other words, show me how differences of opinion can be expressed in a better way. Show me how women do it." To me, this is a pretty clear way of asking how you think a woman would respond ("show me how differences of opinion can be expressed in a better way. Show me how women do it.") . And in as equally a clear way, I thought I said that men and women, while having strategies equally effective or repugnant, aren't restricted to gender roles. In fact, that we should be pretty much beyond gender roles, since while they may be effective in instinctive or animal behavior, they seem to have developed a quasi-mutant response in people. In other words, dominance-seeking behavior served to cull out the weaker males or females; in particular, with the males, it also served to aid in the selection of the alpha male, which in turn, enhanced the breeding pool. I see nothing about dominance behavior which would enhance the breeding pool of an online forum, or enhance anything at all, for that matter.**

Yeah, fair enough. Earlier, I thought your comment about antlers was a cheap shot at what you were identifying as a typically male, stupid mode of dealing with issues of contention. But I think now that you weren't seeing what was happening between me and Eric as an exchange of ideas; you were seeing it as mere contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emc2cme
I don't see that Eric was being deliberately obtuse or evil in his comments.

Neither do I.

**You originally said, "...The conclusion I've drawn is that petrosianii cares more about drama than about the Yi or clear thinking or playing nicely with others...", which pretty much correlates with being obtuse. Perhaps you've drawn this conclusion from more than one encounter on the forum, but I don't see much in his original comments that would indicate that he is alone in caring more about drama than about the Yi, or clear thinking or playing nicely with others. Also, you yourself said that "there's also been a clash of egos, for sure." That is what the original comment was about.**

This is the first time I've taken the measure of both Eric and you, in this thread. Yes, I think his idea about Hex 37 is flawed, and yes I think he's handled the exchange of ideas in this thread pretty clumsily, but no I don't think he's DELIBERATELY being obtuse or evil. I think he's just got it wrong, in both content and style of interaction. You've taken the time and trouble to work some of this stuff out with me, and I appreciate that. He hasn't though, and I've drawn my own conclusions about that.

 

[petrosianii]

i have thoroughly enjoyed the comments in this post. Frank, you're sharp! i gotta hand it to you. dobro, you're sharp, too. I apologize if I upset you. Please do continue to comment on my threads, b/c despite the fact I think you do like to argue - you were right in that there is that argumentative side in me, too. And you do offer refreshing perspectives.

Be well, all of you

 

[dobro p]

What? Group hug? Damn, things surprise me sometimes.

 

[hilary]

(Somewhere between 37 and 38?)

 

[maremaria]

Is it just my impression or do you see it too ? While the Memorize 38 thread is still on progress, there are a lot of 38 situations in this forum .

I like from Candid’s blog his 38 comment : “ Never let anyone rob you of your own decent opinion. Neither be a thief. Agreement is not always necessary "

Hmmm, maybe if we all try to finish the 38 things will be calmer . Come on . There are just 3 lines left …..

Joking.... (half)

 

[Sparhawk]

 

[emc2cme]

thank you

First of all, thanks, Hilary, for all your patience. I still don't see how the response part works, since I only see it at the bottom of the page, and it'll take some practice to figure out how to answer individual messages with the quotes and all. And thanks also for the heads-up on the email address. I knew that might happen (the spam, that is), but I preferred to put it out there rather than continue kicking that particular dead horse in front of all. I "get" a little bit about how the other options work, but will still need to practice. Most of all, thanks again for letting us play in your beautiful field.

To Lindsay and Meng--thanks for the positive words. I shouldn't have permitted myself to respond in an inappropriate fashion--one that I take exception to in others--and I appreciate that you can see past that.

To Dobro--I apologize for responding to you in a way that I criticized YOU for doing. There's no excuse for it, and I thank you for seeing past that to what I was really saying.

Petrosianii--I'm glad to see you back.

Maremaria and Sparhawk--ever the conciliatory diplomats even with your wicked sense of humor. Have either of you ever considered running for president? I bet the war(s) would be over in a NY minute.

Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend.

Nancy

 

[Sparhawk]

Maremaria and Sparhawk--ever the conciliatory diplomats even with your wicked sense of humor. Have either of you ever considered running for president? I bet the war(s) would be over in a NY minute.

You mean a Greek Goddess and a Wetback Latino? In this country?? We ran out of style a couple of years ago after Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, etc., started kicking their dogs for no good and apparent reason and Ricky Martin didn't look so macho anymore... Even hispanics with a family lineage in the States going back a couple of centuries before it was even called the U.S.A. are looked down with suspicion...

The Greek Goddess has a better chance. For her own sake, I'll stay out of the ticket.

I'm still amazed to see a woman and a black dude with such a good chance of reaching that pinnacle.

 

[maremaria]

The Greek Goddess has a better chance. For her own sake, I'll stay out of the ticket.

Lol Luis

Maremaria and Sparhawk--ever the conciliatory diplomats even with your wicked sense of humor. Have either of you ever considered running for president? I bet the war(s) would be over in a NY minute.

Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend.

Nancy

Well, It is not the right time for you (US) to have a Greek president. On the other hand, for us it would be the best time. We have some issues to take care.

Luis, I'll need the Chair for a couple of weeks. Then, you can have it .

 

[fkegan]

My, that is some powerful full moon square Pluto on Good Friday

Nice to see peace break out all over again!
Reminds me of this election season where everything changes totally from week to week. Total disaster seen by the pundits as the polls close in one primary with a totally different message of renewed hope or renaissance by the time the votes are counted enough to call the winner.

Luis, I would note that there is a difference between the individual hugs amongst the pickpocket club members and a true group hug--however they became obsolete after their expression and exhaustion in the '70's.

And I am pleased to see Nancy speak of her realization of her issues which a number of us were urging her to do, and even more pleased that she expressed herself as well in ignoring me--I appreciate the respect for my privacy.

As to the current election campaign in the US, it is all just commentary to the remarkable changes in the stars. Pluto in 1 Cap 01 for the first time since King George III tried to get firm control of his Empire--and raised a massive insurgency instead.

I expect diplomacy and candidacy to get a lot of new support as the ship of state moves into its next phase-- those on the Titanic who made it to the lifeboats had an entirely different perspective than those who stayed at the bar thinking the abandon ship order was just a lifeboat exercise for women and children [from testimony in Senate hearing by a woman who was taunted on her way to the lifeboat- to be sure to keep her boarding pass handy or she wouldn't be allowed back on board in the morning].

I can see the wisps of future hex 38 energy brewing, but hex 37 is in the set from 31 to 40 In which hex 40 is the periodic release of intense human energy -- the final quiescent state of the hex 31 set which also is the engine to keep the family process cycling. So, for now, time to roll over and take a nap.

Peace,
Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, I would note that there is a difference between the individual hugs amongst the pickpocket club members and a true group hug--however they became obsolete after their expression and exhaustion in the '70's.

Oh, yes. When I was looking for a picture in Google, I just thought the pickpocket club metaphor for a group hug was more appropriate for this "family"...

I was about to post this one, but, even though it was a great example of a real 'group hug,' I thought it was too gay...