44. Kou / Coming to Meet

[Trojina]

Catholic angels are nearly always male, as far as I know, but Charly was apparently not talking about those angels.
He did confuse Trojan with Topal though, so I wouldn't trust him too much when it's about gender.

anyhow Michael is always described as 'he' and er Michael is a male name is it not, but i think Charly and I may have been talking at cross purposes as he seems to see them as mythological creatures where I see them as real entities that can't exactly be switched around to suit this and that theory and plenty of people outside the catholic church recognise them. Anyhow I don't know what Angels Charly was talking about ? Charly's Angels ??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1b4iZ1RkYw

 

[Trojina]

I've read somewhere that angels are asexual... I'll see if I can find it.

If an angel sees you coming you think they are gonna reveal their gender to you ? You have a reputation you know, even in other realms

 

[Trojina]

Anyhow if 44 is so sexual how come we are gettin caught up in the ethereal ? Lets bring this back to earth with this image....Bella in a field with 5 bulls hmmm Bella the goddess ? Bella the whore ? Bella the muse ? Bella Harrys ex ? Picturing Bella sashaying through the meadow singing "these hips don't lie"

 

[Sparhawk]

If an angel sees you coming you think they are gonna reveal their gender to you ? You have a reputation you know, even in other realms

Ah, that would be a worthy challenge...

 

[rosada]

Playing with the word "Siren".

43.6
No cry.
In the end misfortune comes.

So does "No cry" mean the siren did not go off? And why didn't the siren go off in 43.6?
Was it because by learning how to negotiate, speak up and ask for what we wanted we had become complacent, not staying on top of things, figuring, "Oh, I'll go talk to him about that later"? And zip, the lean pig has slipped past the guard and is into the house.
So now we have a whole hexagram devoted to The Siren and when one should and should not pay attention to it.

This leads me to consider, "Just what is the command the prince is disseminating?" Most likely he is sounding an alarm, a cry to prepare for battle. Should these alarms be responded to? Or is someone crying wolf? I think of how earlier in the war, every time George Bush appeared to be slumping in the polls within 24 hours the White House would announce an increased terrorist alert. So perhaps at 44.1 are we being warned to not let the terrorist in, or is it the thought of there even being a terrorist we are warned not to let in?

 

[meng]

Luis, there's a couple of gospel verses that suggests the asexuality of angels, but then there's also mentions of Michael.

Unless one takes everything literally, I don't see what difference the gender of angels makes. The role they play and the messages they bring are what matters.

 

[Sparhawk]

Unless one takes everything literally, I don't see what difference the gender of angels makes. The role they play and the messages they bring are what matters.

Certainly. That's what my point was about pointing to the possibility of angels being asexual. I just didn't remember where I read that before. You say it is suggested in the gospels somewhere?

 

[rosada]

I have been looking at what the first line of the trigram SUN means when coupled with all the other trigrams. It seems they all repeat the themes of renewal, but also the need for caution when confronted with something new, and the wavering between staying with the devil you know and the siren call of the unknown.

18.1 Rigid adherence to tradition has resulted in decay.
One must not overlook the danger or take the matter too lightly.

28.1 Caution, though it may seem exaggerated, is not a mistake.

32.1 Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune.
(Don't over commit?)

44.1 It must be checked with a brake of bronze.

46.1 Pushing upward meets with confidence.
The one hexagram where SUN line one is positive.

48.1 No animals come to an old well.
(Again the need for renewal)

50.1 Furthers removal of stagnating stuff.
One takes a concubine for the sake of her son.
Hmm..does this continue themes touched on in 44.? The idea that coupling leads to pregnancy and birth?

57.1 A thousand doubts crop up.
Ah, here we see the danger of SUN only hinted at in 44.1 now in full bloom. The doubts and fears. Perhaps the brake of bronze in 44.1 is emphasizing the need to squelch the doubts, the wavering.

 

[martin]

Anyhow if 44 is so sexual how come we are gettin caught up in the ethereal ? Lets bring this back to earth with this image....Bella in a field with 5 bulls hmmm Bella the goddess ? Bella the whore ? Bella the muse ? Bella Harrys ex ? Picturing Bella sashaying through the meadow singing "these hips don't lie"

OMG, 1 Bella + 5 bulls, did you get that idea from the well known handbook 'How to start a war in 5 minutes and make sure that the collateral damage is enormous"?

 

[meng]

You say it is suggested in the gospels somewhere?

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

The same account is given in Mark and possibly elsewhere. As I've said, it only implies asexuality, since it doesn't directly say they are neither male nor female. There may be others but this is what I had in mind.

 

[martin]

This leads me to consider, "Just what is the command the prince is disseminating?" Most likely he is sounding an alarm, a cry to prepare for battle. Should these alarms be responded to? Or is someone crying wolf? I think of how earlier in the war, every time George Bush appeared to be slumping in the polls within 24 hours the White House would announce an increased terrorist alert. So perhaps at 44.1 are we being warned to not let the terrorist in, or is it the thought of there even being a terrorist we are warned not to let in?

I was thinking, if 44 has the split tail of a mermaid (it's a bit short, but okay ) and Eve was a mermaid, sort of, then 43 must be the snake, split tongue ..
'every time George Bush appeared to be slumping in the polls within 24 hours the White House would announce an increased terrorist alert', yeah right, split tongue.

 

[meng]

In the Tanakh/OT, angel is most commonly used as angel of the Lord, which is more like 'spirit of God' or 'voice of God', 'effect of God', 'Word of God', etc. or what NT refers to as the third person of the trinity: Holy Spirit.

Clearly there are many different angels spoken of in the both NT and OT. The most colorful and scientifically plausible are to be found in Ezekiel, where there association can't help but to be made between angels and UFO's. You can Google Ezekiel 1 to read it. It's pretty wild and futuristic stuff.

edit: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=wheels&t=KJV&sf=5

Sorry for going OT. Maybe Luis and I can pick this discussion up elsewhere, or not.

 

[rosada]

No problem, meng, it is the nature of 44 to lead one "off topic".

Just to have it in the archives, I'm going back to my thoughts on the meanings of all the first lines in the hexagrams having SUN as the lower trigrams:

18.1 The old methods are no longer working and the old threats like "Wait till your father gets home" or "Terrorist alert!" no longer elicit much of a response. Wake up people, there is a real problem here which should not be overlooked or taken lightly!

28.1 Caution, we don't yet know how extreme the problem is.

32.1 But one should assume there is more to it than what we see on the surface. (It's been around longer than we have...)

44.1 So don't over estimate how strong your influence will be. The light bulb has got to truly want to change...

46.1 Start small and have the help of someone above you.

48.1 That is, don't lower your bucket into the muck if you're gonna get stuck there.

50.1 Ultimately some good may come of this.

57.1 But meanwhile don't just stare at the problem. Lead, follow or get out of the way!

 

[martin]

You can Google Ezekiel 1 to read it. It's pretty wild and futuristic stuff.

Wow, yes, pretty wild. Some of it sounds to me as if the writer had visions of a 20th century bombardment by airplanes (in WW2 perhaps, wheels = propellers):

Eze 3:13 [I heard] ... the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing.

Eze 10:2 .. fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter [them] over the city.

 

[rosada]

To complete what Wilhelm has to say about 44.1:

To check with a brake of bronze. This means that it is the way of the weak to be led.

The brake is below. K'un, in which this is the first line, means a wagon; Ch'ien is metal. by means of which the wagon is to be braked underneath. This braking brings good fortune, because it accords with the truth that a weak thing is unable to guide itself must be led. If we give it free rein, misfortune befalls us. This shows the trend of the whole hexagram. The line is compared to a pig that is as yet weak and lean but that will later tear about: this likewise refers to the yin nature of the line. The pig belongs to water, in particular to the yin aspect of water. It is worth noting that this line comes into account only as an object acted upon.
-Wilhelm

 

[meng]

Martin, that's an interesting image of 44: a split tongue. Two images it causes to pop up in my head are the serpent of Eden and the Am. Indian term: speaking with forked tongues. Going to add that to my 44 image library.

 

[meng]

Wow, yes, pretty wild. Some of it sounds to me as if the writer had visions of a 20th century bombardment by airplanes (in WW2 perhaps, wheels = propellers):

Oh yeah, man. This is the stuff of all kinds of historic, future/past, prophecies and local/current associations. This, Daniel and Revelations, together, can fuel innumerable tales of recognizable destinies. Check out the descriptions of today's modern Apache type helicopters in Revelations. I'm between things right now but will see if I can locate it. You can use "locust" as a search word, I think.

edit: No, not under locust. Might not even be in Rev, but there are descriptions that sound like today's war craft. Will see if I stumble on it, and will just add it in this post.

 

[Sparhawk]

Oh yeah, man. This is the stuff of all kinds of historic, future/past, prophecies and local/current associations. This, Daniel and Revelations, together, can fuel innumerable tales of recognizable destinies. Check out the descriptions of today's modern Apache type helicopters in Revelations. I'm between things right now but will see if I can locate it. You can use "locust" as a search word, I think.

Trippy, indeed... wow

 

[meng]

Luis - Rev 9:4 to 9:11

 

[maremaria]

Your last posts brings in mind the books of Julius Vern.
He predicted(?) the inventions of helicopters, submarines, projectors, and other later devices. which were discovered many years after he wrote about them. As a child I was almost addicted to his books and always wondered which was his source of inspiration to write about all those things.

 

[meng]

Your last posts brings in mind the books of Julius Vern.
He predicted(?) the inventions of helicopters, submarines, projectors, and other later devices. which were discovered many years after he wrote about them. As a child I was almost addicted to his books and always wondered which was his source of inspiration to write about all those things.

Perchance to turn this back to 44, do you think there's any relationship between the experience of these visionaries and hex. 44?

 

[maremaria]

Perchance to turn this back to 44, do you think there's any relationship between the experience of these visionaries and hex. 44?

I believe we are still in 44. I can't see something OT in the last posts.

To answer to your questions , yes I feel the existance of 44 there. I'm not very familiar with Ezekiel texts, but I think those people dare to meet the "Powerful maiden" .

I quess that the people read Vern's transcript might not tell him "wow !!! brilliant " but "are you crazy ? "
Maybe they hear something others couldn't hear. the wind has a voice. It can be tender, it can be angry. It can speak.

clumsy answer but more or less is how I see it.

 

[rosada]

44.2
0 Nine in the second place means:
There is a fish in the tank. No blame.
Does not further guests.

The inferior element is not overcome by violence but is kept under gentle control. Then nothing evil is to be feared. But care must be taken not to let it come in contact with those further away, because once free it would unfold its evil aspect unchecked.

The fish likewise belongs to the yin principle. The reference is to the six at the beginning. This six is in the relationship of correspondence to the nine in the fourth place, the "guest." But through this relationship the yin element would penetrate too far into the hexagram. Therefore, the six at the beginning is held captive, like a fish in a tank, by the nine in the second place, the loyal official, who has a relationship of holding together with it. As a result all goes well. It is to be noted that the word here rendered by "tank" includes the idea that the yin element is treated in a perfectly friendly way.
-Wilhelm

 

[meng]

I believe we are still in 44. I can't see something OT in the last posts.

To answer to your questions , yes I feel the existance of 44 there. I'm not very familiar with Ezekiel texts, but I think those people dare to meet the "Powerful maiden" .

I quess that the people read Vern's transcript might not tell him "wow !!! brilliant " but "are you crazy ? "
Maybe they hear something others couldn't hear. the wind has a voice. It can be tender, it can be angry. It can speak.

clumsy answer but more or less is how I see it.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

"Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation "the insanest of all books".Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". "Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work" and "John Calvin had grave doubts about its value."

Such is the beloved whore of poets, who makes a fool of the master.

 

[charly]

Catholic angels are nearly always male, as far as I know, but Charly was apparently not talking about those angels.
He did confuse Trojan with Topal though, so I wouldn't trust him too much when it's about gender.

Martin:

I'm affraid that it was a lapsus. Do I need a psychoanalist? Sure yes.

Maybe you can trust this:

Male angels doesn't arouse too much interest to me. I only tried to say that angel means messenger, that HOU, Princess, is a messenger of GOU, Goddess or Ancestral Lady, I assume that all the messengers of the Goddess are women.

I believe that H.44 is saying that all the women have an Ancestral Lady that granted them some special powers, spiritual powers (in many cultures they are considered «natural shamans») and, maybe the worst for us, guys, physical powers, being one the sexual strenght.

Guys mainly used to go war.
Girls maily used to bear children.

Girls can go to war, sometimes so did many chinese women along the history, as was recorded from Shang times to recent times. If you don't trust me, ask Mary Halpin.

As far as I know, guys cann't bear children. Till now.
​

I believe that this is the reason why the YI warning us «The Girl is powerful», adding «do not take her without consent».

Anciently in China, real girls (under the appropriated circumstances) used to consent, even more, they used to provoke shy boys with jokes and double sense words.

Maybe they continued doing it ...

With just over 1.3 billion people (1,321,851,888 as of mid-2007), China is the world's largest and most populous country.​

From: http://geography.about.com/od/populationgeography/a/chinapopulation.htm

When W/B alters the genre of the Princess, making of her a Prince, when puts the heaven, not in the chinese original, all the text that speak about women and earth become bizarre.

I believe.

Yours,

Charly

 

[jilt]

hmm, all very interesting: found this one on LiSe's site "Without temptation – no inspiration.
It is nature’s way to proliferate." http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/index.htm
Perhaps a better name for this hexagram would be "doubs" (sequence: after being very sure doubt will undoubly enter). Without doubts our vision would and could not change.

 

[meng]

hmm, all very interesting: found this one on LiSe's site "Without temptation – no inspiration.
It is nature’s way to proliferate." http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/index.htm
Perhaps a better name for this hexagram would be "doubs" (sequence: after being very sure doubt will undoubly enter). Without doubts our vision would and could not change.

mm, that would be this one, and Candid would be me.

http://www.yijing.nl/candid/hexagrams/44.htm

 

[jilt]

stumble stumble stumble

 

[maremaria]

Such is the beloved whore of poets, who makes a fool of the master.

I liked that !!!

 

[charly]

... Such is the beloved whore of poets, who makes a fool of the master.

Meng:

Maybe you woul subscribe:

«... mother, sister, daughter, / beloved, / fierce pale flame / of doubt ...»​

Samuel Beckett
from: http://poemaseningles.blogspot.com/2006/04/samuel-beckett-from-only-poet-to.html

Or ...

«... they lay that they loved us, and we -thus pay the devil- lay that we didn't love them» (1)
Arturo Capdevila

Another thing: I believe that the key word of 44.2 is 賓 bin1: visitor / guest. See the etymology:

賓
Etymology: ... one who comes into ... the house and is treated like 貝 money ... venerable guest
...
English Senses... a guest / a visitor / to treat as a guest / to obey / to follow instructions / to submit / a Chinese family name...
From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=賓&submitButton1=Etymology

貝 it's the shape of a cowry meaning not only money, but valuable / treasure / cowry, and cowries were anciently associated with women as an image of a vulva (2). It also looks like a vessel, associated with vagina and womb.

Even more:

迎賓yíng bīn: to welcome a guest / to entertain a customer (of prostitute)
From: http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdqchi=賓+&wdrst=1&wdqchim=3&wddmtm=1

WHORE etymology:

Whore... "prostitute, harlot," ... "one who desires" ... "adulteress," ...Whore itself is perhaps a ... euphemism for a word that has not survived. Some equivalent words in other languages also derive from sources not originally pejorative... Another term was lupa, lit. "she-wolf" ...
From: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=whore&searchmode=none

SHE-WOLF, do you remember the GOU dog from the MWD manuscript?

Maybe all this was taken as a veiled sign that the YI considered GOU as a woman of dubious morality.

I'm convinced that this is not true, that the YI speaks of ancient forgoten customs and rites but that the suspicion existed in the mind of later commentarists that, trying to veil the truth twisted the whole text arousing more conflictive associations that the truth itself.


(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly


_____________________

(1) «ellas nos mentían que nos amaban, y nosotros, así paga el diablo, les mentíamos que no las amábamos»
From: Arturo Capdevila: Córdoba del Recuerdo

(2) not only the chinese, old greeks associated shell (pornemi) with Venus → born from a shell. Then PORNOGRAPHY: part of the Biology that studies SHELLS / part of the Mithology that studies Venus!