44. Kou / Coming to Meet

[rosada]

44.3
Nine in the third place means:
There is no skin on his thighs,
And walking comes hard.
If one is mindful of the danger,
No great mistake is made.

There is a temptation to fall in with the evil element offering itself
-- a very dangerous situation.
Fortunately circumstances prevent this;
one would like to do it,
but cannot.
This leads to painful indecision in behavior.
But if we gain clear insight into the danger of the situation,
we shall at least avoid more serious mistakes.

Since this hexagram is structurally the inverse of the preceding one,
the present line corresponds with the nine in the fourth place in Kuai.
Hence the similarity in text.
But the inner attitudes are different:
in the former there is a resolute intention to press upward in order to throw out the dark line above,
here a desire to meet the dark line below.
But this dark line has already been taken into custody by the nine in the second place,
so that a meeting
--which indeed would be disastrous--
is not possible.
The proximity of the line to the upper trigram Ch'ien makes it possible to recognize the danger,
but desire remains unsatisfied.
Hence the unsatisfactoriness of the situation,
although serious mistakes are avoided.
--Wilhelm

44.3
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
-Rolling Stones.

 

[jilt]

Host is in ethylology connected with hostility and hotel of course.
Are you hinting to this Charly and Meng? That that every guest should be treated with care (as a treasure) because the visiting element also is a potential danger, as the latin word host suggests? Visitors are bringing other norms and values that could disturb the houshold if things were/are not channeled into some kind of protocol. Also, visitors can bring disease. And horny persons can bring a lot of social turmoil, think about Romeo and Julia.
So if you don't keep the hornyness away from guests, there could develop a situation.
And the one that is kept within the chains of protocol shouts "I cant get no satisfaction"

 

[martin]

I think that 44.2 simply means 'don't make her pregnant'. If that doesn't apply literally it means something like 'avoid longterm consequences'.

 

[rosada]

Hmmm...not sure I agree with you here, Martin. I think maybe it's 44.1 that's warning against becoming pregnant. Line 1 is the influence BEFORE one steps into the real situation described by the hexagram, so this would be the point where a warning against getting pregnant, involved further, would be most effective. 44.2 seems to me to be the point where one has already become involved, become pregnant. "There is a fish in the tank," or "A bun in the oven" as we used to say. However, "Does not further guests," sounds like the pregnancy should not be allowed to continue. Perhaps 44.2 is refering to the moment when one suspects they are pregnant and before telling anyone else out about it, the person must decide whether to continue or terminate the pregnancy.

To flesh out the story:
44.1
Stop now or you'll become pregnant.
44.2
Okay, you are pregnant. Don't get caught up in blame. Just decide, are you going to abort?
44.3
You can't do anything about it just now, let things develope a bit more.
44.4
You realize you really want to keep the baby. Other people's attitudes have influenced you but their opinions aren't the important one's. No one else can guide you. This is YOUR decision. yet you should still be cordial to friends who may question your decision, you may need them later.
44.5
Birth. Wonderful. What ever is, is best.
44.6
Line 6 is the line beyond the confusion of 44. So after the decision has been made, just go with it. Everything will work out.

 

[charly]

Host is in ethylology connected with hostility and hotel of course.
Are you hinting to this Charly and Meng? ... Also, visitors can bring disease. And horny persons can bring a lot of social turmoil... And the one that is kept within the chains of protocol shouts "I cant get no satisfaction"

Jilt:

I was speaking not about hostility but about hospitality, the guest is a wanderer, almost defenseless, hardly could be hostile without risking his neck.

Anciently male guests were valuable because, coming from far, they could made valuable contributions to the house or the community to wich they arrive: rare jewels, furs or simple commodities, different ideas, norms and values, and, most important, genetical diversity.

For little communities maybe geographically isolated, like highlanders, with little contact with foreigners, without neigbours from wich to get women, the law of hospitality with guest commanded the lady of the house to go to sleep with male guests, thus assuring reasonable genetical diversity for the community.

Sick visitors were surely not welcome, they were not guests. Maybe only young, healthy and robusts wanderers were admitted as gests. They, far for bringing desease, vaccinate the community against deseases related to genetical recessiveness. Kings and nobles granted hospitality as well as common people.

A wife didn't lose her reputation nor her marital or social status. Guest got satisfaction. Even more, the worse sin for a male guest was to be stingy with the seed.

Of course, time passed, customs changed, later scribes didn't like this sort of stories.

Meanwhile I prepare my notes about how H.44 is related with this, you can take a look to the three stories that I have posted here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=59066&postcount=115

(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

 

[jilt]

Charly,

You are right of course, but I was thinking about the Romans and latin, where those words are intimately connected, sharing the same root. Host, hotel, hostile.
Of course, receiving guests is something done with the heart, but it is also something that is surrounded with a lot of ambiguity. In cultural anthropology whole bookshelves are dedicated to this ambiguity.

 

[rosada]

44.4
Nine in the fourth place means:
No fish in the tank.
This leads to misfortune.

Insignificant people must be tolerated in order to keep them well disposed. Then we can make use of them if we should need them. If we become alienated from them and do not meet them halfway, they turn their backs on us and are not at our disposal when we need them. But this is our own fault.

The fourth place is that of the minister. The six at the beginning stands for the inferior, lowly people. There is a relationship of correspondence between the two lines. furthermore, it would be the duty or the official to keep in touch with the people. But this has been neglected. The line belongs to the trigram Ch'ien, hence strives upward, away from the people below. By doing this it attracts misfortune to itself. The corresponding nine in the third place of the preceding hexagram is also isolated, but there the inner attitude is correct, here it is not.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

We haven't talked about the resulting hexagrams this time. I think it would be good if we did so. Line 44.5 is so positive, but the reward it appears only falls to those who have earned the reward, or those who have at least kept their eye on developments. And 44.4 particularly warns of the loss of not keeping an eye on developments. So To help us better focus and catch the wave...

44.1 > 1
I'm seeing this as advice against letting anything distract one from the chosen focus.
Holdback the wavering with a brake of bronze > make yourself strong and untiring.

44.2 > 33
Humoring or keeping the distracting influence in check > not angrily but with reserve.

44.3 > 12
Being alone is hard and there is a temptation to actually fall in with the distracting influences but this is not possible > so the superior man falls back upon his inner worth and does not permit himself to be honored with revenue.

44.4 > 57
Now however, he must take care not to be so aloof from the people that he is completely disconnected > while spreading his own beliefs and doing what he feels is right.

SAY! I just noticed something interesting about how similar is the image of 44 and the image of 57. Both contain wind blowing about. In 44 there is more of a sense of divine decree. In 57 its the superior man spreading the word. Is this indicative of the need to get down off the thrown, closer to reality to have one's words have meaning? Or is it that one should just share their message without concern and let those who have ears, let them hear? Anyway, this idea of spreading our message is fast coming upon 44.5 changing into 50. The Ting, so I would assume that those who have been watching this hexagram unfold in their daily lives will be seeing The Law of Attraction working big time in the next week with clear evidence that what we focus our attention on manifests.

jm2c
-Rosada

 

[charly]

... I was thinking about the Romans and latin, where those words are intimately connected, sharing the same root. Host, hotel, hostile.
... receiving guests ... with a lot of ambiguity...

Jilt:

I also think that is good to relate the Yi with other ancient cultures, and, of course, can have hostility as we can see in W/B version:

44.2
... There is a fish in the tank. No blame. / Does not further guests.

The inferior element ... is kept under gentle control. ... The fish likewise belongs to the yin principle ... the six at the beginning is held captive, like a fish in a tank ... the word here rendered by "tank" includes the idea that the yin element is treated in a perfectly friendly way.

Are you aware of the hostilty towars the yin (1) element ?

If we were fishes, maybe we don't like to be captives in the tank. It is not friendly, but hostile.

This fish is a dangerous guy indeed. Not a valuable guest but an intruder. Then, it's unprofitable to gest such fish. For girls maybe a warning for not being seduced too soon by the fish. For boys, don't be too intrusive, consequences can be umpleasant.

Never discard the hostility element.

Another yin element is money. The fish could mean money:

FISH → fertility → abondance → wealth → money → BUCK

The PURSE HAS BUCKS. UNPROFITABLE for GUESTS.

The money is kept safe. The host is stingy, guests cann't expect too much.

Gests are also related to hostum (?) (3) army / troops / followers.

The money is kept safe. No booty for birds of prey. It could be an advice for keeping your wallet safe or taking on account the availability of materiar resources or evaluating costs/ benefits in all projects.

Yours,

Charly

____________________
(1) yin is related not only with women but also with negative principle and sex (male or female)

From: www.zhongwen.com

(2) buck: n. adult male of some animals (deer, antelope or rabbit) / Antelope considered as a group: a herd of buck. / robust or high-spirited young man / dollar, amount of money.

(3) My latin is snot good (in spanis: hueste)

 

[charly]

WANTED XXXX XX ALIVE:

Soon: Who is the Fish ?

Charly

 

[rosada]

0 NIne in the fifth place means:
A melon covered with willow leaves.
Hidden lines.
Then it drops down to one from heaven.

The melon, like the fish, is a symbol of the principle of darkness. It is sweet but spoils easily and for this reason is protected with a cover of willow leaves. This is a situation in which a strong, superior, well-poised man tolerates and protects the inferiors in his charge. He has the firm lines of order and beauty within himself but he does not lay stress upon them. He does not bother his subordinates with outward show or tiresome admonitions but leaves them quite free, putting his trust in the transforming power of a strong and upright personality. And behold! Fate is favorable. His inferiors respond to his influence and fall to his disposition like ripe fruit.

The nine in the fifth place hides its lines, for it is in the middle and correct.
"Then it drops down to one from heaven," because the will does not give up what has been ordained.

This line is the ruler of the hexagram, standing as a prince in its correct and honored place in the middle, and referred to by the words of the Commentary on the Decision:"When the firm finds the middle and the right." Ch'ien is round, hence symbolizes round fruit. Here the fruit is a melon: it represents the yin line at the beginning and so belongs to the dark principle. It is protected and covered with willow leaves. No forcible interference takes place. The regulative lines of the laws upon which the beauty of the life depends are covered over. We entrust the fruit in our care entirely to its own natural development. Then it ripens of its own accord. It falls to our lot. This is not contrived but is decreed by our accepted fate.
-Wilhelm

 

[rosada]

My husband and I were having a particularly pleasant afternoon yesterday. The atmosphere was such I thought, "Shangrila!" Later I reflected on what might have created this unusual mood and I discovered the phone had been left off the hook. We were completely incomunicado, hidden like a melon covered in willow leaves and a lovely time dropped down on us like a gift from heaven.

 

[Tohpol]

My husband and I were having a particularly pleasant afternoon yesterday. The atmosphere was such I thought, "Shangrila!" Later I reflected on what might have created this unusual mood and I discovered the phone had been left off the hook. We were completely incomunicado, hidden like a melon covered in willow leaves and a lovely time dropped down on us like a gift from heaven.

I like it when things like that happen. Unplanned, unprepared and rather nice.

Topal

 

[rosada]

Hi topal,
Nice to meet you here in this cosy spot.
I just realized the book I'm reading may give some insight into 44. I'm reading "Mary Martin, Broadway Legend." Mary, it seems, was an absolutely delightful creature. She is best known for her role as Peter Pan. Her husband however, Richard Halliday, was a mean drunk. However, he was devoted to Mary and made all their decisions and managed her career and life. I wonder if his problems with alcohol were somehow connected with her being so strong, successful and beloved? If so, it would mean the problems with 44. The Marrying Maiden are not inherently the fault of the female, but because the male is weak.

 

[Tohpol]

Hi topal,
Nice to meet you here in this cosy spot.
I just realized the book I'm reading may give some insight into 44. I'm reading "Mary Martin, Broadway Legend." Mary, it seems, was an absolutely delightful creature. She is best known for her role as Peter Pan. Her husband however, Richard Halliday, was a mean drunk. However, he was devoted to Mary and made all their decisions and managed her career and life. I wonder if his problems with alcohol were somehow connected with her being so strong, successful and beloved? If so, it would mean the problems with 44. The Marrying Maiden are not inherently the fault of the female, but because the male is weak.

Geeze how many times have I seen that played out.

Generally I think women are stronger than men - when and where it counts. I know that's an almost impossibly generalist statement but I just think historically, sociologically and biologically women have had to be stronger in order to survive so many of these patriarchal times. I see that in 44 too - reverence and power. Treat her well and you can augment that creativity/receptivity - be part of it. The man allows the creative principle to flow through the woman and not just give birth physically but she can become the symbolic birthing of new spiritual possibilities. 44.5 has that about it I think - pregnant with possibilities.

(Yes, this is a cosy spot after all that rucus next door. Mine's a whisky please. )

Topal

 

[philish]

Been catching up on this thread--so good to see a 44 discussion with a little sanity!

A few weeks back I asked the Yi what was the best thing I could do for someone in my life, and got 44.5. Because this person isn't in my everyday world (not physically, at least) and we rarely email, I thought this meant that, in the active sense, there isn't anything I can DO for this person. However, at some level (creative-imaginative/emotional/spiritual) I offer a point of refuge for significant change in his life. A place for him to be "reborn"--what I've heard called "holding space" for the ego to transform and the mind to create.

Didn't someone here write that they saw hex 44 as a very Mars/Neptune dynamic? I see it with Plutonic themes--both destructive (the neg. use) and transformational (the pos. use). And, well, Scorpio did once share Mars with ol' Aries...

 

[rosada]

44.6
Nine at the top means:
He comes to meet with his horns.
Humiliation. No blame.

When a man has withdrawn from the world, its tumult becomes unbearable to him. there are many people who in a noble pride hold themselves aloof from all that is low and rebuff it brusquely whenever it comes to meet them. Such persons are reproached for being proud and distant, but since active duties no longer hold them to the world, this does not greatly matter. They know how to bear the dislike of the masses with composure.

"He comes to meet with his horns." At the top it comes to an end, hence humiliation.

Ch'ien is the head, here the highest place, which is moreover hard, hence the image of horns. The orientation of the line is quite different from the first line, which it should go to meet. It meets the first line with harshness, hence an understanding is extremely difficult. This leads to humiliation. But one does not try to enforce a meeting, hence one withdraws without blame.
-Wilhelm

 

[martin]

Didn't someone here write that they saw hex 44 as a very Mars/Neptune dynamic? I see it with Plutonic themes--both destructive (the neg. use) and transformational (the pos. use). And, well, Scorpio did once share Mars with ol' Aries...

I guess that was me, but I said that it was a Mercury-Uranus thing. Mars-Neptune would be hexagram 24 or 16 in my book (earth trigram is like Neptune, thunder is like Mars).
I don't have a trigram that corresponds to Pluto, but yes, 44 as Pluto/Scorpio makes sense to me.

 

[rosada]

44.6 > 28

Bearing the dislike of the masses with composure > the superior man, when he stands alone, is unconcerned, and if he has to renounce the world, he is undaunted.

THAT certainly sounds like Pluto!

 

[Sparhawk]

THAT certainly sounds like Pluto!

​

 

[maremaria]

I..... 44 as Pluto/Scorpio makes sense to me.

Ha ! so now is clear how this conspiracy against Scorpios started !
I think we all can agree that "Don't grap the woman "is a typo mistake in the Book . Eh ?

 

[martin]

The woman is bold and powerful
A relationship with her will be a unique and unforgettable adventure!
Don't hesitate, marry her!

(From 'Absolutely Irresistible, a handbook for future partners of Scorpio mermaids')

 

[charly]

... Didn't someone here write that they saw hex 44 as a very Mars/Neptune dynamic? I see it with Plutonic themes--both destructive (the neg. use) and transformational (the pos. use). And, well, Scorpio did once share Mars with ol' Aries...

Philish:
I don't know too much about astrology but I believe that GOU belongs to PISCIS, obviously, by the presence of the FISH and because the ambiguity of H.44. Maybe also related with ARIES.

In TAROT is of course the card of FORCE:

OPENING THE LYON'S MOUTH!

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... The melon, like the fish, is a symbol of the principle of darkness... [say women]
... a strong, superior, well-poised man tolerates and protects the inferiors...
... His inferiors [once more women] ... fall to his disposition like ripe fruit...

Rosada:

Maybe the Wilhelm's unconscious is betraying him?

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... I'm reading "Mary Martin, Broadway Legend." Mary, it seems, was an absolutely delightful creature... Her husband... was devoted to Mary and made all their decisions and managed her career and life...

Rosada:

In «A Mulan in the Yijing» Harmen Mesker (1) says that JIAO horn (2) designates among other things the style of hairdressing of a boy who is becoming tall. then the girl could have been a sort of Mulan, a warrior girl hairdressed like a man («á la garçon». This ambigüity could be striking but delightful. It reminds me a Hollywood legend, Louise Brooks, say Lou Lou / Pandora.

Powerful girl indeed!

From: http://obsessionsblog.wordpress.com...on-de-pandora-sobre-el-trabajo-de-lucia-lara/

Yours,


Charly
____________________
(1) For me a classic: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/archives/56-A-Mulan-in-the-Yijing.html available also in pdf.

(2) «the horn of an animal / a direction / a corner / an angle / a tenth of a dollar / a
contest / to wrestle / a corner / an ancient, three-legged wine-cup / a dramatic role / a character / one of the five musical notes in ancient Chinese music» Sears says.
Of course, there are another associations: horn means crescent moon → Goddess. And for dirty guys it sounds like JiaoGou, sexual intercourse, once more the Gou.

 

[charly]

Ha ! so now is clear how this conspiracy against Scorpios started !
I think we all can agree that "Don't grap the woman "is a typo mistake in the Book . Eh ?

María:

Maybe the relation with SKORPIO comes from this:

From: http://aka-idiota.com.ar/siguiendo-en-esto-de-los-comics-y-las-historietas/

Corto Maltese, a character created by Hugo Pratt, loved Pandora. The own Hugo liked Louise Brooks and made some characters from her. He knows the YI and chinese history.

Yours,

Charly

 

[maremaria]

Charly,

I can't read spanish so I don't know what the story is about.
For the moment, as a scorpio myself, I'll choose Martin's version
and the wisdom of that profound book, I must say, he mentioned !!!


Maria

 

[charly]

... Generally I think women are stronger than men... 44.5 has that about it I think - pregnant with possibilities.

Topal:

Quite right. Gourds do not fall from the sky, but, in some sense, opportunities do it.

Girls do no fall from the sky, moreover, they are too strong. If you want them you must look for the opportunity.

And for girls? The same, only swap girls with boys.

Catch the opportunity, as you say «pregnant with possibilities».

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

... I don't know what the story is about.
For the moment, as a scorpio myself, I'll choose Martin's version ...

María:

If your are SCORPIO, the relation is clear. the GIRL is not only powerful, she is dangerous !

see 44.2:

the character 厲li4 translated by W/B as danger has two components, high and left : slope down and right : SCORPION, a concealed scorpion.

Sears says:

... scorpion 萬 in a cave 厂 - cruel
English Senses For: li4 a coarse whetstone / harsh / violent / severe / stern / serious / to persuade / to urge / to encourage / bad / evil / a Chinese family name / an epidemic / to oppress / oppressive / cruel

From: http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...spx?characterInput=厲+&submitButton1=Etymology

Worse than dangerous, harsh and cruel! but...

]厲 ... 厂 cliff/shape indicator + 萬 ...poisonous scorpion with long claws → whetstone used for vigorous polishing → sharp; sharpen;
From: http://www.kanjinetworks.com

Sharp, aware, with fast response, it make sense with GIRL.

Li occurs in 44.3:

臀 tun2 / butt / buttocks /
无 wu2 / without / not / no /
膚 fu1 / skin /
其 qi2 / his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it /
行 xing2 / to move / to walk / to behave /
次 ci4 / order / sequence / next // second rate / inferior / low /
且 qie3 / further / moreover /
厲 li4 / danger / severe / hash / cruel / sharp /
无 wu2 / without / not / no /
大 da4 / big / great /
咎 jiu4 / blame / error / mistake

SKINLESS BUTTOCKS, MOREOVER, HIS BEHAVIOR is LOWLY
DANGEROUS / SHARP
NOT a GREAT MISTAKE
​

• HE: naked, even more, lowly behaving
• SHE: dangerous / sharp
• APPROACHING: not a big error ! → pretty good !

About the story of Corto Maltese (1) , published in my country by SKORPIO, I recommend you «Corto Maltese in Siberia» [«corte Sconta detta Arcana»] that you surely can get with emule.

​

Yours,

Charly

____________________
(1)

“Corto Maltese in Siberia” steady hints at the film “Shanghai Express” (1932) by Josef von Sternberg. To create the character of the duchess Marina Seminova, Pratt took explicitly inspiration from Marlene Dietrich, the main character of the film in which her name is “Shanghai Lily” from which Pratt derived the name of the female guerrilla Shanghai Lil. Chang, the bad character of this comic book, has the same name of the bad character of the film.

In this comic book, Pratt amazingly mixes fictional elements and real elements of his own life. As a matter of fact, Shangai Lil is the portrayal of a Chinese friend he met in 1972. She was a member of the family of the three Soong (Song) sisters. Chingling, Meiling and Ailing Soong married, respectively, Sun Yat-sen (Sun Zhongshan), Tchang Kaï-chek (Jiang Jieshi) and H. H. Kung, a banker and politician.

Their father Charlie Soong, a multimillionaire from Shanghai who was converted to Methodism, was one of the heads of the Triad. Likewise, the character of Jack Tippit is based on the homonymous former colonel of the American army and cartoonist of the series “Henry” originally created by Carl T. Anderson. Hugo Pratt met Tippit on that same year during a conference on comics in New York. Captain Nino, on the other hand, is the portrayal of the singer Nino Ferrer, a great friend of Corto Maltese’s creator. General Chang is reminiscent of the Chinese marshal Tchang Tso-lin (Zhang Zuolin), who died in 1928 in the explosion of a bomb placed on his armour-plated train while he was retreating to Manchuria after having tried to restore the imperial dynasty in Peking to his own benefit. In “Corto Maltese in Siberia”, Pratt described the same circumstances of Chang’s death with little changes in a way that clearly shows his steady play between real and fictional. Pratt’s stories are very often full of strange references, that, however, thanks to his great narrative talent, he manages to make incredibly consistent and plausible.
From: http://cortomaltese.com/doc/hugo/pratt03_en.html

 

[maremaria]

see 44.2:

the character 厲li4 translated by W/B as danger has two components, high and left : slope down and right : SCORPION, a concealed scorpion.



Charly

____________________
(1)

Thats interesting Charly.
Wonder what Scorpio meant for chinise and why in this line ?