60.1>29 - how does that indicate someone died? Discuss!

[Yasmin]

This morning I heard that an old friend of the family had been taken ill and was in hospital. I asked what the outlook for his recovery would be, at least short term. And cast 60.1>29. Restrictive regulations, not taking a step out of one’s courtyard, no error, in a context of danger. I took it to mean that as long as he stayed quiet and got some rest, and didn’t rush back home to his multiple occupations as he tended to do, he would make no error, ie would be ok, despite the danger. I did note that the omen was not good fortune though...
Half an hour later, I heard that he had died. For all I know, he may have already been clinically dead when I cast.

Usually, when I get 60.1 it makes sense, do not take action, do not travel or whatever. But how does not stepping out of the gate indicate death, I don’t know. All I can see is the context of danger, the need for regulation, and the absence of good fortune. Not passing out the pearly gates? But that would suggest staying in incarnation.

Would anyone get that a person is dead or about to die from that reading?

 

[Yasmin]

This is a hindsight stretch, but maybe it meant that he would never leave the hospital alive, not passing out the gate?

 

[Trojina]

This morning I heard that an old friend of the family had been taken ill and was in hospital. I asked what the outlook for his recovery would be, at least short term. And cast 60.1>29.

I see it as he wouldn't leave where he was, safe inside, at peace. I like the self contained peace of this line.
Not a mistake for him to die.

Would anyone get that a person is dead or about to die from that reading?

No but I think it would be foolish to assign that meaning to any line especially there is no line that says that. I don't think Yi works that way. Just because a person experiences a line as someone's death is does not follow that that is what the line means in any fixed sense.

Of course the answer might also refer to you as in don't enquire, don't go beyond your own space ?

 

[Yasmin]

I see it as he wouldn't leave where he was, safe inside, at peace.

Yes, I agree, it is exactly that. Thank you Trojina. I think I was in such a state of shock and sadness that I couldn’t interpret the casting.

 

[Yasmin]

Trying to reconcile that with 60, limitations - perhaps his soul understood that his body had reached its limits. It was time to depart at peace.

 

[Liselle]

Also, if I understand correctly, you asked about his recovery. Maybe Yi was being very, very literal, and saying his recovery wouldn't take a step out of the courtyard (and that's not a mistake).

I wonder if it might be more clear if you find out what he died of? (Only because more information often helps with interpretations - no idea whether it will in this case.) And also, as you said, it might make a difference whether he had already died when you asked the question, but you might not ever know that.

 

[Gmulii]

This morning I heard that an old friend of the family had been taken ill and was in hospital. I asked what the outlook for his recovery would be, at least short term.

You asked on 25 July then?
It would make some sense on 24, but on 25 I have no idea as well... But health can be tricky to read.

 

[Trojina]

Unless she has said she is using weng wang gua or any other method for which the date has any relevance then the date is completely irrelevant.

 

[Gmulii]

In China the client is usually making the Hexagram. At times they may have no idea what system the master or practitioner will read it with... Yet all systems work, as the "packed" information in the Hexagram can be unpacked in different ways.

So you don't need to make something different so the Hexagram can be read with "WWG", that is already included in every reading by default.

Unless the Hexagram is made with specific rules for a specific system(usually MH), but even then it can still be read with WWG, just need some adjustments. And isn't the case here.

At least that is the info I operate with.

 

[Trojina]

In China the client is usually making the Hexagram. At times they may have no idea what system the master or practitioner will read it with... Yet all systems work, as the "packed" information in the Hexagram can be unpacked in different ways.

From what I have seen there is virtually no connection in meaning between text based readings such as we mostly use here and the more mechanical methods like WWG etc.

These mechanical methods tend to produce mechanical answers of fortune telling style such as 'you will meet a man on the 25th of June but there will be another in his life' and none of this appears to have any connection to what the I Ching says. Personally I have absolutely no use for such methods and would consider them of no relevance in my own readings.

So you don't need to make something different so the Hexagram can be read with "WWG", that is already included in every reading by default.

Oh I think you do which is why when people start using WWG/other methods here in answers to querents Hilary asks them to post a link in their signature to an explanation of what method they use so the querent is aware what you are giving is something entirely different to the mainly text based interpretations offered here.

I've yet to see an answer using these methods bear any relation to a text based understanding. So it makes little sense to me to offer a reading based on WWG when the person cast without the intention of using that and without the idea time of casting would matter.

It's a question to an Oracle with an answer from an Oracle. An Oracle that is not some sort of mechanistic cog turning contraption whereby after midnight you will get an entirely different answer. That is nonsensical. If I ask you a question the only reason date would matter would be if circumstances had changed in that time, there's no reason date has any relevance otherwise. If I ask someone a question on Thursday the only reason their answer would be different on Friday would be if circumstances have changed.

I think it is confusing offering WWG readings here unless of course the person wants them. But if they want them then text based interpretations won't apply. There is one answer from the I Ching IMO, there is not a WWG version and a text based version, only one can be true for that person. Hence throwing in WWG interpretations when a person has asked from a text based POV can just be muddling hence the need for a link in the signature if you intend to go on offering WWG interpretations.

 

[Yasmin]

He died of respiratory failure following an acute lung infection. He was otherwise in good general health and supernaturally vital for a nonagenarian, we all thought that he would live to be 100. But there may have been some underlying chronic health issues which made it difficult for his immune system to pull through that respiratory infection. I think that his body gave up. Too many limitations 60.

I would not be surprised if he had already passed away or was in the advanced process of when I cast the vessel, as I found out just half an hour later. So I really like Trojina s interpretation for line 1: he would not leave where he was, safe, at peace. He did live an incredibly full and productive life until the last minute, not the type of person to want to live on in a diminished, limited body, unable to enjoy life on his own terms. An acute respiratory infection is a good way to go, sudden, fast, no dragging on! No error. Although obviously this is highly speculative, it makes sense to me.

Thank you all for your contributions! I think i have a better understanding of 60.1, and of timing with IC. I often forget to consider that a cast may just be reflecting was is already ongoing, describing an existing situation. I tend to assume it is advice, action oriented. I suspect that the majority of readings that leave me perplexed probably fall in that category! Food for thought.

 

[Gmulii]

It's a question to an Oracle with an answer from an Oracle. An Oracle that is not some sort of mechanistic cog turning contraption whereby after midnight you will get an entirely different answer. That is nonsensical. If I ask you a question the only reason date would matter would be if circumstances had changed in that time, there's no reason date has any relevance otherwise.

Lets say we are deep underwater. And we want to light a match. We will find out that even though if we were in other conditions it would have been very easy, in this specific environment, its next to impossible.

Lets say we are in the desert and we want to light a match. Much easier now.
Suggests that our environment changes how everything that is happening within it operates.

Now, lets say we ask a question in a fire branch day. At that day we ask about a situation where we have taken approach very related to "water" element, we are deep within ourselves, seeking renewal and don't want to interact with the environment much.

Our line will usually be Water or Metal and in both cases will be very weak. Because the day and month of asking present an environment that require us to be open and expanding. If we can't our line will be weak.

Lets say we are with exactly the same approach, but we ask in a water day. Now, our line will be very strong as the environment is supporting it. Now, we would be in a desert if we were attempting to light a match.

That matters a lot.

So what does the Day matters... Depend what we consider when reading. If we think we should "dash out" the 5 elements and none of this works then the Chinese Solar Calendars will be meaningless, then of course, it matters very little.
If we have found meaning in all of it, then its very clear, it just show what the environment is going through and how we fit into that with our chosen approach.

Oh I think you do which is why when people start using WWG/other methods here in answers to querents Hilary asks them to post a link in their signature to an explanation of what method they use so the querent is aware what you are giving is something entirely different to the mainly text based interpretations offered here.

Then look in the part of the forum for reading questions. Has it happen that someone asked a question, made a hexagram and had no idea how they could read it, so was expecting forum members to do it?
Then they wouldn't make it addressing specific system, yet if it happen and there was a correct answer even once, it suggests that the person that is making the Hexagram may not address a specific method and the reading can still work with a system(text with the lines in this case) that it wasn't made specifically for. : )

We have made readings when the person didn't even knew what hexagram was. They just open a website, thought about the question and hit a button. And we could still read it with good enough accuracy, back then.

While I'm open to the idea if a specific system is clearly stated that can influence the outcome, I don't think it would influence it in such a way that it would be unreadable by other systems. In my practice so far all questions had relevance when looked with all systems I know(or even systems I didn't knew at the time).

 

[Yasmin]

Regarding WWG - I did cast on 25/7. I am not familiar with other methods than text related.

 

[Trojina]

Lets say we are deep underwater. And we want to light a match. We will find out that even though if we were in other conditions it would have been very easy, in this specific environment, its next to impossible.

Lets say we are in the desert and we want to light a match. Much easier now.
Suggests that our environment changes how everything that is happening within it operates.

Now, lets say we ask a question in a fire branch day. At that day we ask about a situation where we have taken approach very related to "water" element, we are deep within ourselves, seeking renewal and don't want to interact with the environment much.

Our line will usually be Water or Metal and in both cases will be very weak. Because the day and month of asking present an environment that require us to be open and expanding. If we can't our line will be weak.

Lets say we are with exactly the same approach, but we ask in a water day. Now, our line will be very strong as the environment is supporting it. Now, we would be in a desert if we were attempting to light a match.

That matters a lot.

So what does the Day matters... Depend what we consider when reading. If we think we should "dash out" the 5 elements and none of this works then the Chinese Solar Calendars will be meaningless, then of course, it matters very little.
If we have found meaning in all of it, then its very clear, it just show what the environment is going through and how we fit into that with our chosen approach.



Then look in the part of the forum for reading questions. Has it happen that someone asked a question, made a hexagram and had no idea how they could read it, so was expecting forum members to do it?
Then they wouldn't make it addressing specific system, yet if it happen and there was a correct answer even once, it suggests that the person that is making the Hexagram may not address a specific method and the reading can still work with a system(text with the lines in this case) that it wasn't made specifically for. : )

We have made readings when the person didn't even knew what hexagram was. They just open a website, thought about the question and hit a button. And we could still read it with good enough accuracy, back then.

While I'm open to the idea if a specific system is clearly stated that can influence the outcome, I don't think it would influence it in such a way that it would be unreadable by other systems. In my practice so far all questions had relevance when looked with all systems I know(or even systems I didn't knew at the time).

If you start to make WWG interpretations in the SR section you need to have a link in your signature to explain what method you are using otherwise it gets very confusing especially for newbies.

Personally I am not at all interested in any of these methods, but whether I am or not you need to have a link in your signature if offering WWG readings here.

For me the very concept of the day mattering means there is not immediate connection with the oracle but calculations and calculations is not what Yi divination is for me.

If you are going to do readings including 'fire branches' and other concepts that connect with your method of reading Yi then place a link in your signature to an explanation, such as you have given here over in Exploring Divination.

 

[Trojina]

Then look in the part of the forum for reading questions. Has it happen that someone asked a question, made a hexagram and had no idea how they could read it, so was expecting forum members to do it?
Then they wouldn't make it addressing specific system, yet if it happen and there was a correct answer even once, it suggests that the person that is making the Hexagram may not address a specific method and the reading can still work with a system(text with the lines in this case) that it wasn't made specifically for. : )

We have made readings when the person didn't even knew what hexagram was. They just open a website, thought about the question and hit a button. And we could still read it with good enough accuracy, back then.

While I'm open to the idea if a specific system is clearly stated that can influence the outcome, I don't think it would influence it in such a way that it would be unreadable by other systems. In my practice so far all questions had relevance when looked with all systems I know(or even systems I didn't knew at the time).

If you look at the forum rules there is a request that if using unfamiliar methods you need to link. People using the online casting tool do so with the expectation of using the text which is why the text is provided. I will quote the rule.

This way if people want they can use the WWG interpretation, however they need to decide initially which kind of interpretation they want. This is because there is generally absolutely no correlation between interpretation via WWG and the text based method used here.

If someone wants a WWG interpretation I would not respond on that thread because the person has indicated they want WWG which has no connection to the I Ching I use.

From the rules

One other rule

If something about the way you do readings is unfamiliar to most members (eg the method, the text), please edit your signature to include a link to an explanation. (You can always write this yourself in Exploring Divination.)

 

[Trojina]

Then look in the part of the forum for reading questions. Has it happen that someone asked a question, made a hexagram and had no idea how they could read it, so was expecting forum members to do it?
Then they wouldn't make it addressing specific system, yet if it happen and there was a correct answer even once, it suggests that the person that is making the Hexagram may not address a specific method and the reading can still work with a system(text with the lines in this case) that it wasn't made specifically for. : )

That's exactly what we don't want. We don't want people just pressing buttons, doing nothing and coming here for interpretation. They are meant to be thinking for themselves, reading the text supplied. If they just click a button to come and get any kind of reading regardless then well that's not the point of this forum as I understand it.

It's called 'shared readings' not 'give me a reading, any kind of reading, so I don't have to think about it' that's not the purpose of this section.

 

[Gmulii]

Fair enough, will stay away from this part of the forum. : )
That was the initial idea, anyway.

 

[Gmulii]

That's exactly what we don't want. We don't want people just pressing buttons, doing nothing and coming here for interpretation. They are meant to be thinking for themselves, reading the text supplied. If they just click a button to come and get any kind of reading regardless then well that's not the point of this forum as I understand it.

It's called 'shared readings' not 'give me a reading, any kind of reading, so I don't have to think about it' that's not the purpose of this section.

The idea wasn't that that is what you want. The idea is that it works.

 

[moss elk]

was in hospital....
I asked what the outlook for his recovery would be, at least short term. And cast 60.1>29.

Sorry for your loss.
Well, it was indeed a simple answer.
He was in hospital and didn't go outside.

I can divine on any day, at any hour, whilst standing on my head, wearing flippers and nothing else, with my eyes open or closed, facing any direction, and get the information I need. (To me this renders any system that changes a received answer to a different answer, as nothing more than static noise interference, or a corruption of the Oracles message if you will.)

How does WWG account for this?

 

[Gmulii]

I'm open to posting a detailed explanation on how it works in my point of view...
But I get the impression no one actually wants to know.

But if you actually do want to know, I can post and explain from a reading that showed if very clearly for me some years ago and its easy to see there where and how parts of the answer can be in the text, but if we don't count the day and the lines, even though accurate it may be misleading...

 

[Trojina]

I'm open to posting a detailed explanation on how it works in my point of view...
But I get the impression no one actually wants to know.

Go back and read post 15 in this thread. It is explained there quite simply all that is necessary, did you not read it ? I've quoted the rule about it -

If you want to give WWG or any lesser known method then you place a link in your signature. That link goes to a thread in Exploring Divination where you give a detailed explanation of your method.

But if you actually do want to know, I can post and explain from a reading that showed if very clearly for me some years ago and its easy to see there where and how parts of the answer can be in the text, but if we don't count the day and the lines, even though accurate it may be misleading...

It isn't a matter of wanting to know or not. The point is having a link in your signature to your explanation in Exploring Divination that can take anyone there who wants to know.

I'm not sure what you don't understand about that ? That way you can post WWG interpretations to your hearts content, if the querent wants it. No one is stopping you there's just a rule about providing an explanation via link in signature so that each time you interpret using WWG the reader can go straight over to Exploring Divination and read it.

I don't know why but every time this comes up the WWG etc person doesn't seem to get what they need to do

If you are going to start informing people the time and date matter for their question then at least provide full explanation elsewhere. Otherwise it's totally confusing.

 

[Gmulii]

That way you can post WWG interpretations to your hearts content, if the querent wants it.

I have to clarify some stuff...
I got about the signature, would be happy to do that, but I can't find a way to change my signature yet...

But I don't plan to do readings here. We do in the other forums all the time, for many years already, and in there people way better then me can join in as well... Doing it here doesn't seem a good idea, its not what people would expect when asking and its not really needed as there are many people providing answers already.

In this topic I just wanted to clarify the day of asking, because the example here was unusual for me and I usually want to clarify stuff like that if I see it(otherwise I think I missed a rule, and that can be a huge problem down the road).

So as far as the signature goes - don't worry, no plan for doing readings. But if I find a way to change my signature will post some explanation in the other topic and the name of the system in the signature.

 

[hilary]

Thanks Trojina for explaining in my absence, and thanks Gmulii. You can edit your signature here:
https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/profile.php?do=editsignature . (I agree this forum isn't a natural home for non-text-based readings, but people do offer them from time to time.)

 

[moss elk]

Yet all systems work

Do they really?
Did you not just witness wwg failure?
Did you not just witness comprehension based on the line text only?

Does that not give you pause?

 

[Gmulii]

hilary: Aha, I see , thanks. : )

Moss Elk: Yes, the comprehension was beyond anything I could imagine. I'm still recovering from it... Its even more impressive if you did it while standing on your head at any hour, as you said you could.

Now, I think I will move on to other topics. Feel free to show your immense comprehension and acrobatic skills you combine with readings to other people as well, as I don't see the need to comment on any of that.

 

[moss elk]

Yes, the comprehension was beyond anything I could imagine. I'm still recovering from it...

Your barbs tickle.

 

[Gmulii]

Your barbs tickle.

Not here to throw barbs around.
I'm here from time to time to check if some info about the other schools related to the Five Arts in China are needed here. As often people may know about Yi Jing or Qi Gong or even TCM and not be aware the larger framework it can fit into. And I know how much I appreciated it when people did the same when we needed that info some years ago in other places.

WWG may be part of that, but there is much, much more.
As usual will stay some time(longer now, as we got into the 5E mess) and then will leave, as topics about that come up rarely, so no point staying all the time. Will recheck in a few months probably.

Considering all that, throwing barbs around would take much more time and energy then I'm willing to spend on all this. : )

And if I left the impression I don't enjoy the text with the lines it isn't true. I think its very valid and good system. The reason I'm not writing about that here is because it seems that is very well covered.

But in that sense will be silly to go into what is better, as I'm currently using both(and more).

 

[Yasmin]

Thanks Moss Elk. To summarise:
60: his body had reached it’s limits,
1. He was in hospital and did not go outside
No error: The swift manner of his passing, despite causing the rest of us a shock, was exactly what he would have wanted, it was not an error

 

[Yasmin]

Gmulii, I am curious as to why according to WWG, casting on 24/7 would have made sense, but not on 25/7?

 

[Yasmin]

A last update: I found out that our friend had passed away exactly 5 minutes before I cast. Not that it changes anything to the interpretation...