Where does the Yin Yang symbol come from?

[robertluoshu]

“Most of the elaborate associations of the Yi with the Chinese calendar first appeared in the Yiweishu in the Early Han. Further, the references to the coming of the 8th Moon at Gua Ci 19.0 (Lin is the 12th Moon, the 8th’s Inverse), the reference to the coming of solid ice at Yao Ci 02.1 (Zhi Gua 24) and the association of Gua 24 to the Winter Solstice in Da Xiang 24.X all suggest that a system of assignments was both in place and a part of the Zhou Yi and Wing composers’ thought processes.”

-Bradford Hatcher

THATS YOU!!

Are we not talking about the same concepts, aside from a mis-representation of the chronology of the Tai Ji Tu (which is unknown)?

Are we talking about the same concepts? That is, the gnomon's role in the Yi and the Tai Ji Tu.

Your writings appear on the same web site that makes this exact same claim and uses the same images that are in this thread. Are you not aware of this?

The web site does a much better job than myself demonstrating the gnomon's role in the Tai Ji Tu and the Yi.

And the web site uses you as a reference.

Do your writings not make reference to the use of the gnomon and its relationship to the Yi?

In the spirit of the pursuit of knowledge and the fostering of good relationships on this forum, would you be willing to contribute your knowledge concerning the gnomon's role to this thread?

 

[robertluoshu]

gnomon + divination = hexagram, trigram



FROM GUI TO GUA

The excellent website that references your work seems to make the point that the gnomon (or ancient sundial which includes a gnomon) character is a part of the character for Hexagram or Trigram.

Are you on board with this concept or not? Your writings are being used to support this concept in a very scholarly way.

Just confused, any help out there?

 

[heylise]

Uff, I see that it really looks as if this is the absolute truth. I have been playing with this idea, and who knows - it might be that way. Now I put at the top:
FROM GUI TO GUA
the origin of the hexagrams??
Playing with an idea

Sorry for the confusion, I did not realize how definite my reasoning looked. I do not know "the truth" about all this. No idea if anyone knows - or can know. My idea is just one idea, I am certain there are other ideas. Better ones maybe, or worse. I like ideas, more than 'knowing', which puts an end to playfulness.

 

[robertluoshu]

I see that it really looks as if this is the absolute truth.

Sorry for the confusion, I did not realize how definite my reasoning looked.

Confused, YES?

Interesting, Yes.

Absolute truth, who knows, but whats a forum for?

Heylise, seems like you have already done this work before as this post clearly shows, over 8 years ago!

And great work indeed! FYI, your work is related to the Luo Shu as well.

Sorry for the resurrection, but sometimes old traditions just don't die easily.

Isn't it just a hoot that Bradford is the one who gave you the idea??

 

[robertluoshu]

Robert, how does your idea of the gnomon fit in with LiSe's discovery of the origin of the hexagrams?

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/origins/index.html
FROM GUI TO GUA

I never looked. I did not know what Gui and Gua were. I did not know how to find it and did not persist. But it was there all along.

But now I would say I agree almost 100%.

These characters look similar.

 

[heylise]

One little correction: the gui is not the gnomon as far as I know.

Gui: a measuring tablet, at one end round, at the other end straight.
Also: a tablet of jade or ivory, the top round, the bottom square, given by the emperor to the new princes as token of their power or to envoys as credential. (Wenlin: used as sceptre by ancient feudal lords)
And: several measures of capacity

Biao: show; list, table; the gnomon, which casts a shadow and shows or lists the season.
Guibiao 圭表: tablet with gnomon

GUI1:

And an old form of gong, work or tool:

Might very well be that the origin of gui as the six lines on a sundial is not right. But it is intriguing. Nobody knows for certain if it was indeed land doubled. Might have looked like that and later scribes simply copied it that way.

 

[robertluoshu]

The Gnomon and Chinese Characters

The Mathematician and his/her instruments of divine intelligence used to insure a prosperous harvest through the art of mathematics, astronomy, observation, divination (the Yi) and tradition, also known as prognostication.

The words in parenthesis are meant to categorize the (esoteric or mathematical) meaning of the word. The Chinese characters are also philosophical concepts that can be used literally or in an esoteric sense, although the character for ten is probably never referred to as "number" or gui referred to as a gnomon. However, the gnomon is the functional part of the gui and seems to be the common denominator here.

I like this

Might very well be that the origin of gui as the six lines on a sundial is not right.

Thats ok. I made a mistake once too.

 

[pocossin]

Gui: a measuring tablet, at one end round, at the other end straight.
Also: a tablet of jade or ivory, the top round, the bottom square, given by the emperor to the new princes. . .

As the shadow of the Biao gnomon falls upon the Gui scale so the influence (qi) of the ruler falls upon enfeoffed lords.

Gui is well represented by the land character doubled since in the Guibiao's most primitive form earth was the Gui. Hexagram 2 is also land doubled

▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄
▄▄  ▄▄

and in my opinion contains allusions to the enfeoffment ritual.

The Gui is round at its heaven end, square at its earth end. When the Gui was held as a sceptre, wouldn't the round end be pointed toward the ruler?

 

[heylise]

I like this

I got the gong character from Wenlin. In Ricci it is described as a mass with a handle: a pounder for stamping the earth or clay when making pots. See C. Lindqvist "China empire of living symbols" page 261.

 

[robertluoshu]

Gong Character

I got the gong character from Wenlin. In Ricci it is described as a mass with a handle: a pounder for stamping the earth or clay when making pots. See C. Lindqvist "China empire of living symbols" page 261.

If anyone has more information about this character, I would be interested.

 

[ginnie]

Edges are Where Things Change

In English also we have phrases like "on the level" or "the square deal" and the like noting that things that are aligned to the T-square or other right angle are considered better than things that aren't.

Much of that has to do with the detail that the human eye evolved to be particularly aware of straight lines....edges ...

A straight line is how the eye perceives an edge, e.g.; a precipice or place where one thing changes into another thing. I never thought of it this way. Thanks for this insight.

 

[ginnie]

Wilhelm's writings seem to emphasize the four seasons, summer and winter solstice, agriculture, and other themes related to the Chinese reverence of gnomonics.

Can we imagine the world before a calendar had been invented? No, I don't think we can imagine this, unless by chance we once had the experience of waking up from amnesia or general anesthesia, not knowing how much time had passed. And one of our first tasks, upon waking up, would have been to determine what day it was.

The text of hexagram 49 says:

'As the seasons bring their revolutions,
So the wise man makes clear their times,
And prepares himself for their demands.'

This text links the sages with the calendar makers.

 

[robertluoshu]

Hexagram 49

The text of hexagram 49 says:

'As the seasons bring their revolutions,
So the wise man makes clear their times,
And prepares himself for their demands.'

This text links the sages with the calendar makers.

​

“As the seasons bring their revolutions,”
The seasons bring their revolutions as recorded by the gnomon’s shadow; revolutions are measured by tracing the solar cycle with the gnomon. The Tai Ji Tu is a tracing of the solar cycle and can demonstrate the revolutions of the seasons.

“So the wise man makes clear their times,”
The sage carefully observes and documents the exact length of the seasons. Each season was six fortnights. One fortnight was 15.218 days.

​

“Makes clear their times,”
This is a reference to the traditional standard of measuring and documenting the gnomon’s shadow. This was a practice that was handed down for thousands of years that established a tradition and moral standard of calendar making (gnomonics). If the practice was done according to canon, then the accurate measurement of the seasons would establish order and lead to prosperity.

“And prepares himself for their demands,”
The sage prepares his community for the upcoming demands of each season. The sage has clearly identified the seasons; preparation probably includes divining and prognostication to ready for the future changes.

THE NUMBER 49

The number 49 is an auspicious number. It is seven squared. Seven may be the most magical of numbers for the mystic and is linked to the calendar in the following ways:

• There are seven days in a week
• There are 13 weeks in a season, and 13 is the seventh odd number
• There are 91 days in a season, the product of seventh number and the seventh odd number.
• The seventh odd number (13) and the seventh even number (14) are the basis of the 27x27 Magic Square, which features 365 as the center number. This is a special feature of the Luo Shu that did not go unnoticed by the early Chinese.

 

[ginnie]

Totally fascinating! Thanks so much.

I'll go check out the link to the 27x27 Magic Square . . .

 

[robertluoshu]

Gui and Bu: Divining and the Tortoise

Gui: a measuring tablet, at one end round, at the other end straight.
Also: a tablet of jade or ivory, the top round, the bottom square, given by the emperor to the new princes as token of their power or to envoys as credential. (Wenlin: used as sceptre by ancient feudal lords)
And: several measures of capacity.

Gui - phonetically, the sound of this word has several meanings (albeit with different symbols) associated with divining.

· Compass, rule, regulation
· Jade tablet
· Tortoise
· The tenth heavenly stem
· Rule, law​

​

1. Compass - The compass is a divine symbol that represents math, order, and the heavens.

​

2. Jade - Jade is a precious mineral with divine properties from the heavens.

​

3. The Tortoise - The tortoise is associated with the Luo Shu and therefore can symbolize Time and Space, longevity, strength, endurance. The turtle was also associated with the cardinal directions (north), the seasons (winter), and divination. The tortoise, like the Luo Shu, was a model of the universe to the early Chinese and one of the four Divine creatures.

​

4. The Heavenly Stems was an ancient Chinese numeral system associated with the concepts on yin and yang and the Five Elements. Gui was the tenth Heavenly stem and was associated with yin, water, and north.

​

5. Rule, law - This is a reference to the moral standard, canon or tenet, the way things should be to establish order.

Hexagram 27 - Yi - is change and exchange, the mouth, jaws, molars, nourishment, the Temporo-mandibular joint, swallowing, and wu(five? the center?). The 27x27 luo shu magic square was significant in Chinese numerology. I am curious what Wilhelm has to say about Hex 27.

These look similar.

 

[hmesker]

Your choice of characters that are pronounced as gui is very selective and subjective. Bluntly copying from Wenlin:

495 規(S规) [guī] 規律 guīlǜ regular pattern; 規定 guīdìng regulations
832 貴(S贵) [guì] expensive; valuable
981 歸(S归) [guī] return
1301 鬼 [guǐ] ghost; (魔鬼 móguǐ) devil; 鬼子 guǐzi foreign devil
1628 桂 [guì] laurel (bay) tree; 桂林 Guìlín
1756 軌(S轨) [guǐ] track, rail; course, path; 軌道 orbit
1875 櫃(S柜) [guì] (櫃子) cabinet; 櫃臺 counter; 掌櫃 shopkeeper
2414 跪 [guì] kneel
2515 瑰 [guī] [gui] 玫瑰 méigui rose
2622 龜(S龟) [guī] (烏龜) tortoise; 海龜 turtle [jūn] 龜裂 [Qiū] 龜茲
2707 詭(S诡) [guǐ] 詭計 guǐjì plot, scheme, trick
---- 劊(S刽) [guì] 劊子手 guìzishǒu executioner
---- 閨(S闺) [guī] small door; 閨女 guīnü girl; daughter
---- 傀 [kuǐ] 傀儡 kuǐlěi puppet [guī] great; eminent; monstrous
---- 圭 [guī] jade tablet used as sceptre by ancient feudal lords
---- 晷 [guǐ] (日晷 rìguǐ) sundial
---- 珪 [guī] (old variant of 圭 guī 'jade tablet')
---- 癸 [guǐ] 10th 天干
---- 皈 [guī] 皈依 guīyī ceremony of proclaiming somebody a Buddhist
---- 硅 [guī] silicon (Si); 硅谷 Guīgǔ Silicon Valley
---- 餽 [kuì] [guì] to present
==== 劌(S刿) [guì] stab, cut
==== 匭(S匦) [guǐ] small box
==== 匱(S匮) [kuì] deficient [guì] (old form of 櫃)
==== 媯(S妫) [Guī] (name of a river in Hebei)
==== 檜(S桧) [guì] Chinese juniper [Kuì] 秦檜
==== 鮭(S鲑) [guī] 鮭魚 guīyú salmon
==== 鱖(S鳜) [guì] mandarin fish
==== 佹 [guǐ] fortuitous; accidental; 佹得佹失
==== 刲 [shuà] [kuī] [guì] (Unihan cut, slice off
==== 厬 [guǐ]
==== 垝 [guǐ] damage; 垝垣 guǐyuán collapsed wall
==== 姽 [guǐ] 姽婳 quiet and nice
==== 嫢 [guī]
==== 宄 [guǐ] 奸宄 jiānguǐ evildoers
==== 嶡 [guì] lofty [jué] ancient sacrificial utensil
==== 巂 [guī] cry of a bird [Xī] (a surname) [Juàn] (a surname)
==== 庋 [guǐ] (庋藏, 庋置) put away, store
==== 庪 [guǐ] [guí]
==== 廆 [huì] [guī] [wěi] (Unihan a room; the wall of a house a man's name
==== 慖 [guó] [guì]
==== 戣 [kuí] [guì] (Unihan lance
==== 摫 [guī]
==== 撌 [guì] [kuì]
==== 敳 [ái] [ǎi] [guī] [zhū] (Unihan to govern forcefully
==== 旝 [guài] [guì] (Unihan banner, flag, streamer; insignia
==== 昋 [guì] [jǐng]
==== 暩 [guì]
==== 朹 [guǐ] [qiú]
==== 柛 [guì] [shēn]
==== 槶 [kuì] [guī]
==== 槻(=規) [guī] (Unihan zelkova tree
==== 槼(=椝) [guī] (Unihan rules, regulations, customs, law
==== 櫰 [huái] [guī] [huì]
==== 氿 [guǐ] 氿泉 guǐquán spring coming out of hillside [jiǔ] 东氿 lake in Jiāngsū
==== 洈 [xiáng] [yǎng] [wéi] [guǐ]
==== 湀 [kuí] [guǐ] [què]
==== 溎 [guì] [yàn] (Unihan river in Guangxi province
==== 炅 [Guì] (surname) [jiǒng] (archaic bright; hot
==== 瓗 [xī] [guì] [qióng] [wèi] [zuì]
==== 甈 [qì] [guì] [niè] [qiè] [yì]
==== 瞃 [guì] [wēn]
==== 瞡 [máng] [mèng] [jì] [guī]
==== 磈 [wěi] [guǐ] [kuǐ] [kuì] [wāi]
==== 祪 [guǐ] [guì] [huǐ]
==== 禬 [huì] [guì] [kuài]
==== 窐 [wā] [āo] [guī] [wēi] [xī] [yā]
==== 筀 [guì]
==== 簂 [guó] [guī] [guì]
==== 簋 [guǐ] (Unihan a square basket of bamboo for holding grain used at sacrifices, feast
==== 茥 [jiǎn] [kuī] [guī] [guì]
==== 藈 [jí] [kuī] [guī]
==== 蛫 [guǐ]
==== 螝 [xī] [guī] [guì] [huì]
==== 蟡 [qí] [guǐ] [wēi]
==== 襘 [chān] [liǎn] [huì] [guì]
==== 觤 [chù] [guǐ]
==== 赽 [jué] [guì]
==== 趶 [guì] [kù] [wù]
==== 趹 [jué] hasten; hurt one's feet [guì] kick like a mule
==== 邽 [guī] (Unihan name of a county in Han dynasty
==== 鈌 [jué] [guì] (Unihan to pierce, to stab; to take
==== 鏿 [guì] [chēng] [qiāng]
==== 闑 [niè] [guì] (Unihan the doorsill
==== 雟 [xī] revolution of wheel [guī] cuckoo, sparrow [suǐ] old name of town in 四川
==== 鞙 [xuàn] [guǐ] [juān] [xuān] [yuān] (Unihan fine
==== 騩 [kuì] [guī] [tuí]
xxxx 瞶(S瞆) [kuì] [guì] [wèi]
xxxx 亀 [guī] (variant of 龟) [jūn] [Qiū]
xxxx 刏 [guì] [jī]
xxxx 嬀 [Guī] (old form of 媯 or 妫, name of a river in Hebei)
xxxx 孂 [guǐ] [jiǎo]
xxxx 巜 [guì] [kuài] [huān]
xxxx 帰(=歸) [guī] [kuì] (Unihan return; return to, revert to
xxxx 恑 [guǐ] [wéi] (Unihan to change; to alter; to accommodate oneself to
xxxx 撃(=擊) [guì] [jué] [jī] [jí] (Unihan strike, hit, beat; attack, fight
xxxx 攰 [guì] (Unihan totally exhausted
xxxx 攱 [guǐ] [guì]
xxxx 椝(=槼) [guī]
xxxx 槣 [qǐ] [guī] [jī]
xxxx 檘(=蘗) [bì] [guì] [huì] [bò]
xxxx 炁 [gěng] [guì] [qì] (Unihan breath, air, steam, gas. weather. used in Taoist charms
xxxx 璝 [guī] [guì]
xxxx 瓌 [guī] [gui] (=瑰)
xxxx 眪 [guì] [huī] [wèi] [xié] [bǐng] [fǎng]
xxxx 簱 [guì] [jǔ]
xxxx 罓 [gāng] [kuǐ] [guī]
xxxx 胿 [gui] [guī] [kuì] [xī]
xxxx 膭 [guī] [huì]
xxxx 蓕 [guì] [guī]
xxxx 袿 [guī] [guà] (Unihan gown
xxxx 謉 [duǐ] [tuí] [guǐ] [kuì]
xxxx 郌 [làng] [guī] (Unihan name of an ancient hsien in modern Gansu/Shaanxi area.
xxxx 鑎 [guì] [kuì]
xxxx 閧(=哄) [guī] [hòng] (Unihan boisterous; clamor, noise
xxxx 陒 [guǐ] [wéi]
xxxx 隖 [guī] [kuí] [wù] [wū] (Unihan entrenchment, bank, low wall
xxxx 鞼 [tà] [guì] [huì]
xxxx 騟 [guī] [yù] [yú]
xxxx 鬶(=鬹) [guī] [jū] [zhōu] [zhǔ] [zhù] [dǔ]
xxxx 鬹(=鬶) [guī] [xī]
xxxx 鱥 [guì] minnow
xxxx 㔳 [guǐ] [gùn] [huán] [jué] (Unihan (ancient form of 簋) a square basket of bamboo for holding grain used at sacrifices, feasts, etc.
xxxx 㙺 [guì] [kuí] (Unihan (same as 逵 馗) cross-road; a thorough- fare; a center from which nine roads lead out, to accumulate soil; to store up soilt
xxxx 㧪 [guǐ] (Unihan to ruin; to destroy; to break down, to hang up; to suspend
xxxx 㨳 [guǐ] (Unihan (same as 庋) a cupboard; a closet, to put into a cupboard or closet; to put into the proper place, to wear on the head, to support; to sustain; to bear
xxxx 㩻 [guǐ] (Unihan rugged mountain path, very skinny, to pile on upon another; accumulation; to accumulate
xxxx 㪈 [guì] (Unihan to let go, to put, to raid; to aggress, to encroach up, a bad year; a year of famine or disaster
xxxx 㱦 [è] [guì] [jǐ] (Unihan to discard, to abandon, to die; death
xxxx 㲹 [guǐ] [qiú] (Unihan (non-classical form of 氿) the dry soil on the river side, spring water from the hole of mountain side, a small fountain, shore; bank; beach, name of a lake in today's Jiangsu Province Yixing county
xxxx 㸵 [guǐ] [wěi] (Unihan the lowing of an ox
xxxx 䁛 [guǐ] [guì] [kuì] (Unihan to look; to see; to inspect
xxxx 䃽 [fú] [guǐ] [sì] (Unihan name of a mountain (of warship), (same as 禔) happiness; good fortune; good luck; blessing, (same as standard form 祓) to exorcise; to remove evil; to cleanse; to clean; to wash away
xxxx 䇈 [guì] [huà] (Unihan to put into a cupboard or closet; to put into the proper place; to put away, to put away for safekeeping, to collect and keep
xxxx 䌆 [guì] (Unihan silk fabrics
xxxx 䍯 [guǐ] [jì] (Unihan (same as 觤) gaot with different horns (one is long and the other short)
xxxx 䍷 [guì] [huì] [wěi] (Unihan to chase each other (of sheep or goats)
xxxx 䐴 [guì] (Unihan lumbago
xxxx 䖯 [guì] [kuí] (Unihan poisonous insect, (same as 奎) one of the 28 constellations which ancient Chinese astrologers believed to control the literary trends of the world, (same as 蛙) frog
xxxx 䙆 [guì] [kuì] (Unihan slits on the lower part of a gown for freedom of movement
xxxx 䝿 [guì] (Unihan (ancient form of 貴) honourabel, expensive; costly, prized, high-class, to hold in honour
xxxx 䞈 [guǐ] [guì] (Unihan (ancient form of 貨) money; wealth, natural endowment or gifts, to aid or help, to gamble; to bet, to compete
xxxx 䞨 [guǐ] (Unihan (same as 跬) half a pace
xxxx 䠩 [guì] (Unihan to urinate; to pass urine; to empty the bladder; to make water, weary; tired; fatigued
xxxx 䣀 [guǐ] [wéi] (Unihan name of a mountain, name of a place, name of a state
xxxx 䤥 [guǐ] (Unihan agricultural implements; from tools, shining iron, a plectrum from stringed the teeth of a saw
xxxx 䯣 [guì] [kuì] (Unihan the kneecap; patella, the cranium
xxxx 䰎 [guì] [huǐ] [kuì] (Unihan to twist the hair in a knot on the top of the head
xxxx 䳏 [guì] (Unihan cuckoo, pelican, (same as 鴃) a shrike; butcherbird

....which shows that "the sound of this word has several meanings (...) associated with divining" shows a very biased view, to say the least. You simply selected those characters that fitted your purpose.

gui 圭 in gua 卦 is most likely only a phonetic component. The fact that the old form of 工 and the modern form of 占 look somewhat similar doesn't mean anything - a 3000 year old tomato can look like modern horse manure but that doesn't mean there is any link between the two. Check Richard Sears' etymology site for an appropriate comparison (www.chineseetymology.org). Also, brush up your knowledge of ancient Chinese, homonyms (the yi 易 from 'change' is different from H27's yi 頤), and phonetic compounds. You're too easily jumping to conclusions.

 

[peterg]

seven

THE NUMBER 49

The number 49 is an auspicious number. It is seven squared. Seven may be the most magical of numbers for the mystic and is linked to the calendar in the following ways:

• There are seven days in a week
• There are 13 weeks in a season, and 13 is the seventh odd number
• There are 91 days in a season, the product of seventh number and the seventh odd number.
• The seventh odd number (13) and the seventh even number (14) are the basis of the 27x27 Magic Square, which features 365 as the center number. This is a special feature of the Luo Shu that did not go unnoticed by the early Chinese.

Somewhat tangental to the discussion , the phrase ' the seventh heaven' suggests 7 heavens or universes. As a casual observer, i've noticed the idea of 'multi-verses' cropping up in quantuum theory &also in cosmology .The standard (mathematical ) model of cosmology predicts, i think, 'pocket universes'
Seven is an extremely mystical number & may well resonate with the structure of the spiritual universe.

 

[robertluoshu]

Your choice of characters that are pronounced as gui is very selective and subjective.

Of course it is selective and biased, I am trying to make a point. Ancient words that have the same phonetics can sometimes be related to each other. Ariel is a Hebrew word for altar, and has several meanings including goat in Arabic. Goats were used as sacrificial animals on the altar. The root origin is the Babylonian word Arallu, which means "world mountain" and "underworld". Are all these words and usages connected? I feel they are, others may not.

gui 圭 in gua 卦 is most likely only a phonetic component.

That is your opinion. I am being selective and subjective again because I think it fits, and fits very nicely. I feel there is adequate support to make this claim. Not only that, I feel this particular concept should be further researched.

And this is the problem with academics, excellent theories such as this concept get too easily dismissed because people just can't think out of the box. Too bad for them.

The fact that the old form of 工 and the modern form of 占 look somewhat similar doesn't mean anything - a 3000 year old tomato can look like modern horse manure but that doesn't mean there is any link between the two.

That's you opinion as well. I bring up the point that I feel the two characters are similar to provoke discussion so I can learn more. And I believe the two characters are similar, but thats an opinion. I want more information.

Also, brush up your knowledge of ancient Chinese, homonyms (the yi 易 from 'change' is different from H27's yi 頤), and phonetic compounds. You're too easily jumping to conclusions.

I do not know my ancient Chinese homonyms, I rely on my books and the internet. In this case, perhaps I received incorrect information off the internet concerning the Yi compounds. My mistake and apologies.

I do not know the absolute truth but:

I believe the Tai Ji Tu symbol is a tracing of the solar cycle and that the gnomon plays an integral role in the Yi and understanding this will allow for a better understanding of the Yi.

I further believe there is support of this role of the gnomon in the philosophical interpretations of the early Chinese characters, the combination of these characters to form new words, and the phonetics of the words.

It is clear that the early Chinese used writing to establish political authority and order over the people. The last several posts have given some examples of Chinese words that may be connected, it is certainly open to interpretation.

Some of the things I have posted fit nicely and some will not. Some of the bold statements will have to be retracted. And that should be ok, it provokes discussion on a forum and leads to good references and information.

 

[hmesker]

And this is the problem with academics, excellent theories such as this concept get too easily dismissed because people just can't think out of the box.

It has nothing to do with 'thinking out of the box', it is just that working from facts is far more convincing then imaginative theories. A lot of your sentences have 'I think', 'I feel' and 'I believe' in them. Nothing wrong with that, but let's stick to what we know, instead of making up what we don't know. There is enough value in what we know, there is no need to add assumptions to hypotheses to believes. Yi is not a religion, you know.

 

[robertluoshu]

Forum or journal?

This is not an academic journal here. This is a forum. This is a good place to toss out ideas.

To accuse some one of making something up is going a bit too far. Most of what I post I can reference with other sources, when I am unable to I wish to make clear that my statements are opinion.

There is a lot we do not know.

• we do not know if the gnomon is the key to the Tai Ji Tu
• We do not know the role of the Luo Shu magic squares
• We do not know the role of the He Tu
• We do not know the origin of the Early Bagua
• We do not know how the gnomon may have been used for the twelve moons
• We do not know the origin and connection of many Chinese characters

Do you suggest we stick with only what we do know?

How do you make progress in understanding the unknown if you limit your self in any way?

Schulyer Cammann was dedicated in understanding the unknown and was way ahead of his time. He did not know absolutely the relationship of the Luo Shu with divination and the cosmology (not religion) of the early Chinese. He made bold statements that he felt comfortable with and referenced. His instincts proved correct although there are many who will disagree with his findings.

The ideas put forth on this thread are interesting as well as intellectually stimulating. Thats an opinion. I hazard to guess that some people have enjoyed the thread and may even have learned something. That is a positive.

I still believe the Tai Ju Tu symbol is a solar tracing of the sun by use of the gnomon and understanding this will lead to a better understanding of the Yi.

 

[hmesker]

Most of what I post I can reference with other sources

But sources are exactly what I miss here. When you say, "Hexagram 27 - Yi - is change and exchange, the mouth, jaws, molars, nourishment," you don't give a source. When you say, "The turtle was also associated with the cardinal directions (north), the seasons (winter), and divination. The tortoise, like the Luo Shu, was a model of the universe to the early Chinese and one of the four Divine creatures", I miss a source (I assume Sarah Allan's much overrated 'The Shape of the Turtle'; people should read Keightley's 'The Ancestral Landscape' more often.)

Do you suggest we stick with only what we do know?

As much as possible, yes.

How do you make progress in understanding the unknown if you limit your self in any way?

By starting with what is known and work from there, instead of inventing the unknown.

I still believe the Tai Ju Tu symbol is a solar tracing of the sun by use of the gnomon and understanding this will lead to a better understanding of the Yi.

That's fine. As a believe. But I wonder why it didn't appear before the Ming Dynasty, if François Louis is correct in his article 'The Genesis of an Icon: The Taiji Diagram's Early History'. It does not seem to be as old as many believe it is.

 

[robertluoshu]

But sources are exactly what I miss here. When you say, "Hexagram 27 - Yi - is change and exchange, the mouth, jaws, molars, nourishment," you don't give a source.

Hexagram 27 - Yi - is change and exchange I believe is a mistake, I would like to retract this, I believe I mis-read this and can not find the source. As for the other sources:

When you say, "The turtle was also associated with the cardinal directions (north), the seasons (winter), and divination. The tortoise, like the Luo Shu, was a model of the universe to the early Chinese and one of the four Divine creatures", I miss a source (I assume Sarah Allan's much overrated 'The Shape of the Turtle'; people should read Keightley's 'The Ancestral Landscape' more often.)

Yes it was from the overated Sarah Allan book.

Cammann wrote that the TLV Bronze Mirrors of the Han dynasty represented the cosmology of the Chinese.

The center boss of the mirror was symbolic of Mt. Meru, the world mountain, Kun-lun, the center of the universe, or the axis mundi. The dome of the turtle's shell has been compared to boss of the TLV mirror.

Quoting from Cammann, The 'TLV' Pattern on Cosmic Mirrors of the Han Dynasty:

"Let us consider for a moment the various beings that were shown with these TLV patterns as occupants of the four quadrants representing the "Four Seas." The simpler mirrors usually have only eight of them, either eight animals, or eight birds -generally quail. Four of the former are the well known four creatures of the Four Directions, known to the Chinese as the Four Spirits (ssu shen):

• the Azure Dragon of the East
• the Red Bird of the South
• the White Tiger of the West
• and the Black Tortoise (and snake) of the North"

TLV stands for markings on the bronze mirrors which Cammann ascribes to the "sundial theory"(gui shu?), that is, the markings are similar to those made from the shadow of the sundial. (Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. III p. 307).

Quoting from Cammann (same source):

"The sun-dial theory is based on the markings found on two Ancient Chinese sun-dials that have survived into modern times. The finest of these is now in Toronto....Both of these have a square enclosing the inner circle drawn around the socket for the gnomon, with a T projecting from each side, L's opposite the T's, and V's in the corners."

Tortoise Mythology

The tortoise is one of the great mythological animals of the early Chinese cosmology. The Luo Shu appeared on the back of a tortoise and was discovered by Fu Hsi in about 2000 BC. The Luo Shu was a model for Time and Space. Fu Hsi is the discoverer of the Hexagrams. The tortoise shell was used in divination and the character bu is said to have originated from the cracks of a tortoise oracle shell.

Quoting from C.A.S. Williams, Outlines of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives:

"According to the Book of Rites, the unicorn, phoenix, tortoise, and dragon are "the four spiritually endowed creatures". The tortoise is sacred to China, and is an emblem of longevity, strength, and endurance. Under the name of the "Black Warrior" it presides over the Northern Quadrant of the uranoscope and symbolizes winter.... The tortoise symbolizes the universe to the Chinese as well as the Hindus. Its dome -shaped back represents the vault of the sky, its belly the earth....." *

One more source on the tortoise and the cardinal directions: the celestial stems

But I wonder why it didn't appear before the Ming Dynasty, if François Louis is correct in his article 'The Genesis of an Icon: The Taiji Diagram's Early History'. It does not seem to be as old as many believe it is.

The Tai Ji Tu may not have appeared before the Ming Dynasty that we know of, but perhaps the Tai Ji Tu may have had a long tradition before appearing as we know of it. Perhaps the Tai Ji Tu was used in the Ming Tang and only the inner circle of the King would have access to the special charts, astronomical tables and diagrams, graphs, instruments, documents, sets of magic squares, and records that went back thousands of years. All of this is conjecture, but the temples stored valuable assets and records such as these that were not accessible to the general public.

Anything is possible, but it is not a stretch to imagine the Tai Ji Tu as an ancient and useful visual calendar, if in fact it represented a tracing of the solar cycle and could mark clearly the four seasons.

* - Waddell, Lamaism, p. 395 Source: C.A.S. Williams, Outlines of Chinese Symbolism and Art Motives, p. 406
______________________________

That represents at least nine sources:

• The over rated Sarah Allan
• Richard Smith
• Schulyer Cammann
• C.A.S. Williams
• Sir Joseph Needham
• Waddell
• Wikipedia
• Master Zhongxian Wu
• The Book of Rites

 

[hmesker]

In my opinion you are linking things criss-cross without regard to any time frame or context. I hardly believe that the correlative cosmology that was developed during the Han Dynasty can be (completely) applied to the Shang dynasty which took place more than 1000 years earlier. It is a sort of 'back to the future' thinking, hineininterpretieren which doesn't prove anything other than that the writer has a vivid imagination. The evidence that the Shang envisioned the turtle as a model for the cosmos is circumstantial, and may be seriously questioned. As a reviewer on Amazon said about Allan's book, "The idea that the ancient Chinese conceived of the world as shaped like a turtle is a wonderfully imaginative idea, but it is pure imagination, since there is not a shred of evidence to support it. That this fantasy gives its name to the book should be taken as a warning about the book as a whole." And I think he/she is right. Yes, the turtle was important to the Shang, but so were many other animals.

Anything is possible, but it is not a stretch to imagine the Tai Ji Tu as an ancient and useful visual calendar, if in fact it represented a tracing of the solar cycle and could mark clearly the four seasons.

The problem is with the 'if'. I don't like to work with 'suppose if...', 'let us imagine that...', 'maybe this...', 'possibly that...', and I see you do it all the time. Too easily is imagination turned into fact when nobody questions it.

 

[robertluoshu]

In my opinion you are linking things criss-cross without regard to any time frame or context. I hardly believe that the correlative cosmology that was developed during the Han Dynasty can be (completely) applied to the Shang dynasty which took place more than 1000 years earlier.

When you say “(completely)” does that mean some of the cosmology that was developed during the Han Dynasty can be applied to the Shang Dynasty? And who gets to decide which cosmology has zig-zagged through dynasties?

Did not Fu Hsi come along about 2200 BC? And some of the earliest evidence we have of him is funerary art from 140 AD (tomb of Wu Liang) as he holds a carpenter’s square. And again he appears with Nu Wa and their traditional square and compass in 689 AD (tomb of Fan Yen-Shih).

The carpenter’s square can also represent the gnomon, a tradition that goes back thousands of years and continues to show up in funerary art and the TLV Bronze Mirror throughout the Han dynasty and after.

The TLV bronze mirrors that Cammann had written about used symbols that had tradition to support the cosmology that had developed over thousands of years.

In order for a symbol to be incorporated into the TLV bronze mirror, the symbol must have tradition and significance. This takes time.

Quoting from Cammann (same source as above)

"This later Chinese attitude ignores the fact that in ancient China almost nothing was used for mere ornament, without some symbolic meaning."

If you are referring to the tortoise reference about zig zagging thru Dynasties, I believe Nu Wa used the legs of the Tortoise to balance the Heavens, thus making an association of Heaven and the tortoise.

The Luo Shu appeared from Heaven on the back of a tortoise, corresponding Heaven with the tortoise.

And the tortoise plastron was used in divination, another correspondence of Heaven and the tortoise.

Therefore, it seems clear that the Tortoise was one of the four sacred animals and was used in the Han dynasty on TLV Bronze Mirrors as well as being given special status of the phonetics of gui.

Yes, the turtle was important to the Shang, but so were many other animals.

So what are we discussing then? You asked for references and I provided them (including the over rated Sarah Allan). You are acknowledging the awesome tortoise as well. The tortoise was one of the four sacred animals, this distinguishes the tortoise from the other guys and he was able to zig-zag through several dynasties.

hineininterpretieren

I hope I do not have to report this to our new moderators.

The problem is with the 'if'. I don't like to work with 'suppose if...', 'let us imagine that...', 'maybe this...', 'possibly that...', and I see you do it all the time. Too easily is imagination turned into fact when nobody questions it.

I am using "if" and "imagine" because this is a forum, its for ideas, and ideas are for the imagination. Get over it, this is not an academic journal discussion. As far as imagination turning into fact, that should not be our concern or responsibility.

People have done great work out there (Lise, for example) and may not have received the confirmation that assures them of absolute truth. But with our imaginations, we can see the brilliance and possibilities of her work, the beautiful simplicity of the concept, and how it all seems to fit. So we should keep its spirit alive through these kinds of discussions.

The Tai Ji Tu could have been a calendrical chart to mark the four seasons, the diagram could have attained symbolic status over many hundred years if not thousands before it was documented, zig-zagging its way through dynasties. And it could be a tracing of the the solar cycle featuring the use of the gnomon.

This is all relevant to understanding the Yi and deserves consideration.

 

[hmesker]

When you say “(completely)” does that mean some of the cosmology that was developed during the Han Dynasty can be applied to the Shang Dynasty?

No, what I mean is that elements of Shang cosmology can be found in Han correlative thinking, like the importance of the sifang.

And who gets to decide which cosmology has zig-zagged through dynasties?

Who says that 'cosmology zig-zagged through dynasties'?

Did not Fu Hsi come along about 2200 BC?

No. He's a mythological figure.

And some of the earliest evidence we have of him is funerary art from 140 AD

That's my point.

In order for a symbol to be incorporated into the TLV bronze mirror, the symbol must have tradition and significance. This takes time.

That's an assumption.

The Luo Shu appeared from Heaven on the back of a tortoise, corresponding Heaven with the tortoise.

That's lore. And we do not know if what is called the Luoshu in ancient literature is the same as our current version. See this article http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english0/yiology/sub3/XiangAndXinsThought.asp.

Therefore, it seems clear that the Tortoise was one of the four sacred animals and was used in the Han dynasty on TLV Bronze Mirrors as well as being given special status of the phonetics of gui.

There is no special status of the phonetic of gui, as I showed with the long list from Wenlin.

You are acknowledging the awesome tortoise as well.

? No, I'm not.

I hope I do not have to report this to our new moderators.

Why should you? As far as I know it is a normal German word which does not have an English equivalent.

I am using "if" and "imagine" because this is a forum, its for ideas, and ideas are for the imagination. Get over it, this is not an academic journal discussion. As far as imagination turning into fact, that should not be our concern or responsibility.

Oh yes, it is your responsibility. You are responsible for what you write. And if you represent fantasy as facts, then that is your responsibility. This is a forum, yes, but not only for imaginative storytelling. I suppose the readers would like to be able to discern facts from vivid imagination; but the way you put forward your ideas that is hardly possible:

- "the gnomon is intricately related to the Yi Jing, the Lo Shu, and the Hexagrams"
- "the Yi Jing, the gnomon, the calendar, agriculture (death and regeneration), the early Bagua and late Bagua, music and sound, the hexagrams, the Lo Shu, and the He Tu are connected through Math with the rest of the universe or wan, the ten thousand things."
- "The Tai Chi originated from the gnomon and is symbolic of its Math, the math that leads to evolution and prosperity."
- " the early Chinese revered Math as represented by the Tai Chi symbol, which is symbolic of gnomon Math."
- "The Chinese character gong was understood as an image of a person with a compass and carpenter’s square and is said to have the same meaning as wu – the spirit intermediary or shaman." (this is not correct, as I told you in my reply to your e-mail.)
- "Tracing the sun’s annual movement (the solar cycle) by use of the gnomon is symbolized by the Yin Yang symbol of the Yi Jing, also known as the Tai Chi symbol. "
- "Most all of the diagrams had a long tradition maybe for thousands of years"
- "The wan character is made up of four right angles or gnomon"
- "Therefore, “the ten thousand things” is a reference to a number, math, the gnomon, and the calendar. "
- "Wan and Ya were divine symbols, powerful cosmo-magical symbols for many thousands of years whose origins may not have been Chinese."
- "The (Luo) River Document and The (Yellow) River Diagram have traditions that go back thousands of years. "

...to give a few of your 'statements'. This are ideas, not facts, yet you present them as such.

The Tai Ji Tu could have been a calendrical chart to mark the four seasons, the diagram could have attained symbolic status over many hundred years if not thousands before it was documented, zig-zagging its way through dynasties. And it could be a tracing of the the solar cycle featuring the use of the gnomon.

Yes, it could. Just as the usage of the Nine Tripods is incorporated in the Luoshu.

This is all relevant to understanding the Yi and deserves consideration.

Relevancy is subjective. To me it is not relevant at all. It does not tell me anything about the Yi - it only tells me how you see the Yi.

 

[robertluoshu]

Divination and the Gong Character

There is support of the role of the gnomon having special status in the philosophical interpretations of the early Chinese characters and the combination of these characters to form new words.

​

THE TAI JI TU, THE GNOMON, AND DIVINATION

The Tai Ji Tu is a tracing of the solar cycle that helps to identify the four seasons and describes the generation of the ten thousand things, or wan (Nielsen). The concepts of divination and the Tai Ji Tu were connected through the gnomon of the ancient sundial.

​

The references for the Tai Ji Tu connection with the ancient sundial and divination are:

1. Where did the Yin Yang Symbol Come From

2. Yi Jing Web Site
​

These ideas were posted years ago, if you have a problem with these concepts take it up with the authors, these ideas did not originate with my vivid imagination or storytelling.

GONG, DIVINATION , THE COMPASS AND THE SQUARE (the GNOMON)

The symbol for gong includes the image or concept of a craftsman with a compass and square. The square (right angle) can also represent the gnomon (Sir Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. III).

The Chinese reverence for math is discussed at length by Needham, Alfred Schinz (The Magic Square), Lars Berglund (The Secret of the Luo Shu) and many others. It is accepted by many (but not everyone) that the early Chinese incorporated the Luo Shu into city planning over 3,000 years ago demonstrating a reverence for math. If you disagree with this, take it up with Mr. Schinz – he wrote the book and I am only reporting the concepts put forward by him.

The incorporation of math concepts into society, art, temple design, city planning, and language has been described in great detail by Berglund, Cammann, Schinz, CAS Williams, Lewis, Wheatley, Allan, Granet and many others. Your disapproval of Sarah Allan’s work does not invalidate her research and writings.

GONG AND WU CHARACTERS ARE RELATED

The Chinese character correspondences of the ancient sundial, divination, and the hexagrams can be demonstrated here:

Yi Jing Web Site​

The gong character is closely related to both the wang character for king and the wu character for shaman, both of whom practiced divinination with math instruments such as the compass and square.

According to Mark Lewis (Writing and Authority in Early China)

“The character gong (skill, craftsman), which is explained as the image of a person with a compass and carpenter’s square, is also said to have the same meaning as wu.”

And wu means a shaman who practices divining with an image that includes a carpenter’s square and compass.

The words were lifted right out of the text on pages 205 and 206.

In addition, Lewis notes that ren or shaman (which is the same character as king) represented the ultimate yin and facilitates birth. Lewis links the concept to fertility. Ren also occupies the northern quadrant (as did the tortoise), a reference to the cardinal directions. These are the words of Professor Lewis, this is not made up by myself.

This is not storytelling, if you have a problem with it or do not believe it, take it up with Professor Lewis.

Furthermore, even Wikipedia defines wu, shaman, as combining the characters for gong and ren (man). If you do not agree that wu (shaman) and gong (craftsman with a compass and square) are this closely related, then you should take it up with the Wiki people.

WIKI LINK HERE FOR WU
MORE ON GONG ​

These are inter-related concepts: the gnomon, divination, the Tai Ji Tu, the Chinese characters discussed above, fertility, the calendar, the four seasons, the cardinal directions, the compass and the square (math) and discussed by many scholars as pointed out above and below.

Furthermore, the symbol for divination combined with the symbol for the ancient sundial (than includes the gnomon) creates a new word, HEXAGRAM.

​

There is a connection with the ancient sundial and it’s gnomon, divination, and the Hexagram; this is not my idea; it was published here:

Yi Jing Web Site
​

If you have a problem with the storytelling take it up the publisher of the web site, I am just reporting what I like and agree with.

And it’s not my story.

 

[hmesker]

There is support of the role of the gnomon having special status in the philosophical interpretations of the early Chinese characters and the combination of these characters to form new words.

Which 'support' would that be? You are showing me several modern characters which look more or less the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there is any relationship between them.

- The character 丄 only exists as a variant of the character 上. It does not appear on oracle bones or bronze inscriptions (漢語大字典 v. 1, p. 3). If you don't believe that, take it up with the editors of the 漢語大字典 dictionary.
- 圭 is not a sundial, nor did it ever have that meaning. It's a ceremonial jade tablet, as you already know (金文大字典 v. 1, p. 1600; 谢光辉 - 汉语字源字典, p. 213). The only reference to a sundial is found in the Zhouli 周禮, where it says, '以土圭之法, 測土深, 正日景, 以求地中'. But in this context 圭 is most likely a loan character for the homonym gui 晷, meaning 'shadow cast by the sun' (漢語大詞典 .v.5, p. 767).
- 工 is not related to a compass. Even though some believe it represents a carpenter's square, James C.H.. Hsu says in his 'The Written Word in Ancient China', "Another graph (with the old form of 工) shows an object being struck by a hand holding a mallet. Here the (old) component (of 工) is clearly being struck, and is not being used to chop timber, or to draw straight lines. (...) The graph may well represent some kind of musical instrument, perhaps something like a stone chime, suspended from a frame. (...) The graph 工 also means 'musician'. (p. 284-285). I sent you a scan of these pages, you said it was interesting, yet you seem to ignore it altogether. Because it doesn't fit your theories? If you don't agree you can adress it to Mr. Hsu.

I could go on for some of the other characters as well, but I don't want to do your homework.

The Tai Ji Tu is a tracing of the solar cycle that helps to identify the four seasons and describes the generation of the ten thousand things, or wan (Nielsen).

You are misquoting Nielsen. He says, "Tai Ji Tu. The Diagram of the Great Extreme. This refers to both the circular emblem with a dark and light half intertwined (which is also know as the 'yin-yang fish') and to a cosmogonic diagram that shows how the ten thousand things were produced as a result of a process of differentiation of the unity into yin and yang" (p. 227). As you see he says that the Tai Ji Tu is a name for two things: for the first he gives a picture of the 'yin-yang fish', for the latter he refers to plate 9, which is this picture http://sangle.web.wesleyan.edu/etext/song-qing/Taijitu-1.gif. He does not mention the 'solar cycle'.

The references for the Tai Ji Tu connection with the ancient sundial and divination are:

1. Where did the Yin Yang Symbol Come From

It's a nice hypothesis, but it can not be validated by any source.

2. Yi Jing Web Site

As Lise already pointed out, you have to be careful to take her findings at face value.

These ideas were posted years ago, if you have a problem with these concepts take it up with the authors, these ideas did not originate with my vivid imagination or storytelling.

No, but you are very selective in what you accept or don't accept. You just accept every theory that fits your story, without questioning it or tracking the sources, and what doesn't fit your ideas you just ignore.

The symbol for gong includes the image or concept of a craftsman with a compass and square. The square (right angle) can also represent the gnomon (Sir Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. III).

The Chinese reverence for math is discussed at length by Needham, Alfred Schinz (The Magic Square), Lars Berglund (The Secret of the Luo Shu) and many others. It is accepted by many (but not everyone) that the early Chinese incorporated the Luo Shu into city planning over 3,000 years ago demonstrating a reverence for math. If you disagree with this, take it up with Mr. Schinz – he wrote the book and I am only reporting the concepts put forward by him.

I have no problem with math. I also have no problem with the Luoshu and how it is applied. I'm only addressing your selective and narrow way of researching the subject.

Your disapproval of Sarah Allan’s work does not invalidate her research and writings.

Of course not. I just don't agree with her conclusions, because there is hardly a foundation for them.

GONG AND WU CHARACTERS ARE RELATED
The Chinese character correspondences of the ancient sundial, divination, and the hexagrams can be demonstrated here:

Yi Jing Web Site​

Lise does not show any 'correspondence' between the given characters, she only gives a description of every single character. You see in it what you want to see.

The gong character is closely related to both the wang character for king and the wu character for shaman, both of whom practiced divinination with math instruments such as the compass and square. According to Mark Lewis (Writing and Authority in Early China)

“The character gong (skill, craftsman), which is explained as the image of a person with a compass and carpenter’s square, is also said to have the same meaning as wu.”

And wu means a shaman who practices divining with an image that includes a carpenter’s square and compass.

The words were lifted right out of the text on pages 205 and 206.

Yes, but as I said in my reply to your mail in which you mentioned this, "Lewis refers to the Shuowen, see footnote 50 on p. 441. But the compilers of the Shuowen did not know the earliest version of the character gong. In the Seal Script form, which is found in the Shuowen, it looks similar to today's form, but as you know by now the original form was quite different. There is no link with the wu shamans, and today's scholars don't see that link anymore." It seems that you just ignore my reply because it doesn't fit your ideas.

In addition, Lewis notes that ren or shaman (which is the same character as king) represented the ultimate yin and facilitates birth. Lewis links the concept to fertility. Ren also occupies the northern quadrant (as did the tortoise), a reference to the cardinal directions. These are the words of Professor Lewis, this is not made up by myself.

Lewis does not say there is a link between 工 and 壬, so please describe the relevancy of 壬 with regard to the topic of this thread.

Furthermore, even Wikipedia defines wu, shaman, as combining the characters for gong and ren (man). If you do not agree that wu (shaman) and gong (craftsman with a compass and square) are this closely related, then you should take it up with the Wiki people.

WIKI LINK HERE FOR WU
MORE ON GONG ​

At that page it explicitly is said, "The contemporary Chinese character 巫 for wu combines the graphic radicals gong 工 "work" and ren 人 "person" doubled. " But as shown in the etymology paragraph on the same page, this character is not related to the etymology of the original graph - there is no mention of gong there. Since the original form of gong is different from today's form I don't consider it valid reasoning to use the modern form in a false reasoning that explains the character wu as related to gong. See also Schuessler, 'ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese', p. 516.

If you have a problem with the storytelling take it up the publisher of the web site, I am just reporting what I like and agree with.

That's my point. You don't report what you are not agreeing with. You only show what supports your theories, you don't show what contradicts it. And as you see, a lot can be found that contradicts your findings. It all has to do with proper, thorough and objective research.

 

[robertluoshu]

You only show what supports your theories, you don't show what contradicts it.

Harmen, it is not likely that in all my writings I will ever show what contradicts the very points I am trying to make. Usually when one is trying to make points to support an idea on a forum, one does not enumerate on the points that counter their theory. That would deny others their moment.

I do not recall Schulyer Cammann demonstrating the points that contradicted his revolutionary theories.

There is no link with the wu shamans, and today's scholars don't see that link anymore.

"Today's scholars don't see that link anymore" but yesterday's scholars did? And every last one of them converted to your way of thinking?

That is the problem with academics, everybody feels the same way and if you do not go along with the mainstream then one is stereotyped an outcast with a vivid imagination.

工 is not related to a compass. Yes, but as I said in my reply to your mail in which you mentioned this, "Lewis refers to the Shuowen, see footnote 50 on p. 441.

FOOTNOTE 50, P. 441: "It is interesting in terms of the mythology of Fu Xi to find the carpenter's square in this complex of characters pertaining to wu and fertility. The gloss on the character wu also insists on the fact that it is synonymous with gong "skill, artisan."

Lewis is not about to say one thing and then hide the correct interpretation in a footnote on p. 441. Lewis clearly mentions a connection over and over that gong is related to shaman, wu, fertility, the carpenter's square, and Fu Xi.

According to Mark Lewis (Writing and Authority in Early China)

“The character gong (skill, craftsman), which is explained as the image of a person with a compass and carpenter’s square, is also said to have the same meaning as wu.”

And wu means a shaman who practices divining with an image that includes a carpenter’s square and compass.

The words were lifted right out of the text on pages 205 and 206.

That gong is closely related to Shaman is not my vivid imagination, this theory is supported by many scholars as well as Wikipedia.

WIKIPEDIA The Chinese word wu 巫 "spirit medium; shaman; shamaness; sorcerer; doctor; proper names" was first recorded during the Shang Dynasty (ca. 1600-1046 BCE). The contemporary Chinese character 巫 for wu combines the graphic radicals gong 工 "work" and ren 人 "person".

The character wu 巫 is 3,000 - 3,600 years old and is derived from gong 工 "work" and ren 人 "person". You may agree or disagree with this statement but it is not a vivid imagination nor storytelling that links gong with shaman; the writings of Lewis and Allan support the statement.

Since the original form of gong is different from today's form I don't consider it valid reasoning to use the modern form in a false reasoning that explains the character wu as related to gong.

But if some one else chooses to see the relationship of gong and shaman, this does not mean that person is misguided, guilty of storytelling, or has a vivid imagination. You have an opinion Harmen, I have an opinion as well. You provide your references and make a good argument. But I feel I have provided credible sources as well, my views should not be reduced to mere fabrication just because we disagree.

圭 is not a sundial, nor did it ever have that meaning.

That's my point. You only show what supports your theories, you don't show what contradicts it. And as you see, a lot can be found that contradicts your findings.

You too, Harmen.

Is Gui - 圭 - a sundial or not a sundial?

If, as you claim, gui - 圭 - is not a sundial then the source that I have been quoting from (Lise's website) is incorrect. Here is another source that equates gui 圭 with sundial, this would be incorrect as well according to you.

The point is other people have published similar findings, this is not fabrication, storytelling, or a vivid imagination. They deserve their opinions as you do yours.

It all has to do with proper, thorough and objective research.

Objective? Thats a joke Harmen, you are not objective:

The only reference to a sundial is found in the Zhouli 周禮, where it says, '以土圭之法, 測土深, 正日景, 以求地中'. But in this context 圭 is most likely a loan character for the homonym gui 晷, meaning 'shadow cast by the sun' (漢語大詞典 .v.5, p. 767).

Oh, gui 圭 was used just once in reference to sundial so it doesn't really count and its context was most likely a loan character...... Just using what fits, Harmen?

If gui 圭 was used only one time as a reference to sundial then how could anyone know it's meaning?

Forums are for ideas and discussion, this is not an academic peer review committee.

 

[hmesker]

"Today's scholars don't see that link anymore" but yesterday's scholars did? And every last one of them converted to your way of thinking?

See 古文字古林, vol. 4, p. 760. The Guwenzi Gulin summarises the findings of several scholars. It is explicitly stated that 巫 is not related to 工 but to 玉.

FOOTNOTE 50, P. 441: "It is interesting in terms of the mythology of Fu Xi to find the carpenter's square in this complex of characters pertaining to wu and fertility. The gloss on the character wu also insists on the fact that it is synonymous with gong "skill, artisan."

Lewis is not about to say one thing and then hide the correct interpretation in a footnote on p. 441. Lewis clearly mentions a connection over and over that gong is related to shaman, wu, fertility, the carpenter's square, and Fu Xi.

No, but Lewis is only quoting the Shuowen - a sources which isn't always considered reliable when it comes to the etymology of Chinese characters. See about the reliability of the Shuowen (and Wieger's 'Chinese Characters') the entries by kentsuarez in this thread.

That gong is closely related to Shaman is not my vivid imagination, this theory is supported by many scholars as well as Wikipedia.

I never said it was YOUR imagination, I only object against the fancy way you feel you can link all the data together.

The character wu is 3,000 - 3,600 years old and is derived from gong 工 "work" and ren 人 "person". You may agree or disagree with this statement but it is not a vivid imagination nor storytelling that links gong with shaman; the writings of Lewis and Allan support the statement.

No, they don't. They don't because Lewis uses the Shuowen as his source, which is unreliable, and Allan doesn't talk about wu being related to gong.

But I feel I have provided credible sources as well, my views should not be reduced to mere fabrication just because we disagree.

You fail to check your sources. You readily accept the conclusions of an author, without checking the path how he arrived at that conclusion.

If, as you claim, gui is not a sundial then the information that I have been quoting from, Lise's website, is incorrect.

Yes.

Here is another source that equates gui with sundial, this would be incorrect as well according to you.

Yes. Just because he says so doesn't mean he is correct. After all, he doesn't give his sources, so it is impossible to check what he says.

Objective? Thats a joke Harmen, you are not objective.

I never said I was. I am not studying the Luoshu, I don't maintain a website about it - I'm just playing the devil's advocate. You, however, write about it. If you're not objective in the way you research your topic, how reliable can your findings be?

Oh, gui was just used once (in reference to sundial) so it doesn't really count and its context was most likely a loan character...... Just using what fits, Harmen?

No, just mentioning that 'sundial' isn't the only logical explanation. Since the Zhouli is the only book that gives gui with a meaning of 'sundial' you have to be careful with reading gui as such. Also because it talks about 土圭, not just 圭. Since we have gui 晷 as a homonym for 圭, with a meaning of 'shadow cast by the sun', or 'sundial' of you like, it is more likely that 圭 is a loan for 晷.

 

[robertluoshu]

No, just mentioning that 'sundial' isn't the only logical explanation.

But that's my point about interpreting the connection of gong 工 and shaman 巫, there can be more than one logical explanation.

The Guwenzi Gulin summarises the findings of several scholars. It is explicitly stated that 巫 is not related to 工 but to 玉.

I accept this. I am sure this is an awesome source. But is there no room for a another logical explanation?

No, but Lewis is only quoting the Shuowen - a source which isn't always considered reliable when it comes to the etymology of Chinese characters.

But you are using what fits your theories, Harmen. The Shuowen is not always considered reliable so it is not reliable in this instance. Lewis offers another logical and reasonable explanation just as you proposed that gui may have another logical explanation.

.... and Allan doesn't talk about wu being related to gong.

She most certainly does, on page 77:

"The character gong 工 is also a representation of this tool (the carpenter's square)......The character wu 巫 is also closely related."

Allan and Lewis both write about the connection of gong 工 and wu 巫 and offer another logical explanation of their relationship that has been accepted in the academic community. They are respected scholars, cite credible sources, and are not considered to be making fabricated statements.