Where does the Yin Yang symbol come from?

[heylise]

"If, as you claim, gui is not a sundial then the information that I have been quoting from, Lise's website, is incorrect."
The quote was incorrect. The right quote is: Gui is a tablet, biao is a gnomon, guibiao is a sundial.

Your explorations are great - but I think you should be clear about where they are creative ideas (which I really like!) and where objective facts. That includes a very severe investigation into your sources, if they are completely reliable, or - like my website - ideas. There is a big difference between the two.

I try to make my ideas supported by facts, but where I am not certain, I try to make that clear. And even about facts I cannot claim to know them for certain.

 

[heylise]

I made the sentence about the gui and gnomon a bit more clear. It was:

"The ancient sundial of the Zhou was a Gui, a tablet which was at one end round, at the other end straight. At the round end a biao, a gnomon, which cast a shadow, longer in winter, shorter in summer. Midwinter is moon 10, the shadow goes across all lines. Midsummer is moon 4, hardly any shadow.
The Guibiao (tablet with gnomon) were horizontal..."

It could indeed easily be read as "gui is sundial", unless you read the whole sentence. Now I changed it to

"The ancient sundial of the Zhou was a Guibiao. A tablet, gui, which was at one end round, at the other end straight, at the round end a biao, a gnomon, which cast a shadow, ... The Guibiao (tablet with gnomon) was horizontal, .. "

Sorry I caused this confusion for you.

 

[hmesker]

But that's my point about interpreting the connection of gong 工 and shaman 巫, there can be more than one logical explanation.

Well, in that case you should give all the explanations, instead of just focussing on one.

I accept this. I am sure this is an awesome source. But is there no room for a another logical explanation?

Maybe. But do you want to look for another explanation until you find that one that fits your ideas? Why do you avoid those explanations that contradict what you are saying?

But you are using what fits your theories, Harmen.

? I don't have 'theories', I'm just trying to show what can be found when you research a topic thoroughly instead of just sticking to one opinion.

The Shuowen is not always considered reliable so it is not reliable in this instance. Lewis offers another logical and reasonable explanation just as you proposed that gui may have another logical explanation.

Lewis doesn't offer a 'logical explanation', he just quotes the Shuowen. But I will ask him how I feels about the explanation in the Shuowen.

She most certainly does, on page 77:

Ah, so she does (now you see how important it is to mention your sources).

"The character gong 工 is also a representation of this tool (the carpenter's square)......The character wu 巫 is also closely related."

Allan refers to Li Xiaoding's 甲骨文字集釋 published in 1965. Later authors aren't that sure (新編甲骨文字典, 甲骨文字典, 甲骨文間明詞典, 汉语字源字典). In other words, be careful not to blindly accept what some author writes, when she is merely quoting another author. Try to follow her trail. Have you researched the character wu by all means available to you, and weighted all the given explanations?

Allan and Lewis both write about the connection of gong 工 and wu 巫

Yes, but they both point to somebody else who really said it: "the Shuowen says...", "Li Xiaoding says...". In that case I personally would check the validity of the Shuowen and Li Xiaoding's work. Just quoting somebody without checking their sources is dangerous.

They are respected scholars, cite credible sources

I wouldn't call the Shuowen a 'credible source'.

About 圭 and the sundial connection: The character is used in compounds like 圭表 and 圭影 (which Lise mentioned while I was writing my reply), in which gui refers to the sceptre-shaped form of the vertical part of the 'sundial' (I don't think that 'sundial' is the correct word, as the instrument wasn't used to measure time itself, but only moments in time). That doesn't mean that gui itself means 'sundial' - it is never used with that meaning, and the earliest reference that comes close to it is in the Zhouli, but even then it is used in the compound 土圭 (in which 圭 can be read as 晷). The character is not found on oracle bones, and the earliest mentions on bronzes show that the oldest meaning is 'jade scepter'. The 戰國古文字典, which gives meanings from excavated documents dated from the Warring States period, does not give the 'sundial' connection either. It seems that the 'sundial' connection is a relatively late 'meaning'. It is all about context, and to know whether 圭 in 卦 really refers to a sundial or something similar, you will at least have to look at the earliest usages of 卦 (the 古文字古林 quotes 高鴻縉 who said that in 卦, 圭 is not 2x 土 but 2x 士. But that seems very unlikely to me.)

 

[robertluoshu]

Well, in that case you should give all the explanations, instead of just focusing on one.

That is not practical, I am not an authority on the subject, and that is not the style in which I choose to present my material. I am an amateur who is not writing for the academic community. I will present the material with confidence and assertiveness and the reader can decide. I hope to provide as many references and footnotes as possible to help clarify but in no way is the material presented as the absolute truth. These are ideas.

The only thing that can be proven absolutely is Math.

Have you researched the character wu by all means available to you, and weighted all the given explanations?

This is a question more suitable for Professor Lewis, I am not qualified, my writings are ideas pulled from other sources, they do not represent the absolute truth. Now, if I had the title of professor or was even associated with an academic institution, then I should be held to higher standards than if I am writing for entertainment without credentials. I am doing the later.

Additionally, my focus is on the Luo Shu, the relationship of gong and wu is a tangent subject that I have not included in my writings as of yet.

My intention is to provoke thought and discussion, not emotion. The writings are not aimed at the academic community.

About 圭 and the sundial connection: The character is used in which gui refers to the sceptre-shaped form of the vertical part of the 'sundial' (I don't think that 'sundial' is the correct word, as the instrument wasn't used to measure time itself, but only moments in time).

The use of 圭 and the association to the sundial, whether or not the use is to measure time or only moments in time is an excellent point. There is a distinct difference between a gnomon and sundial (which includes a gnomon).

However, the association (correspondence) with Time and the sundial is still significant and involves the gnomon as the gnomon is the functional part of the sundial.

I do not feel this is ever going to be clear but I can see the inter-relationships of the various concepts we have been discussing.

 

[hmesker]

I asked Mr. Lewis,

I would like to hear your opinion about a reference to the 說文 in your book Writing and Authority in Early China, on p. 205-206: "The character 工 gong ("skill, craftsman"), which is explained as the image of a person with a compass and carpenter's square, is also said to have "the same meaning as wu". In footnote 50 (p. 441) you give as a source the Shuowen. Considering what we know now about the origin of the characters 工 and 巫, how reliable would you say that the Shuowen is with regard to the etymology of these characters? I believe that nowadays it is understood that 巫 is not related to 工 but to 玉 (古文字古林, vol. 4, p. 760), and that 工 is not a carpenter's square but maybe a kind of musical instrument (James C.H. Hsu, The Written Word in Ancient China, p. 284-285). What I'm actually asking is, is the Shuowen a reliable source for the etymology of Chinese characters (and more specifically the two characters I mentioned)?​

He replied:

No, the Shuowen is not really reliable for accurate explanations of the histories of graphs. With all the new finds on bronzes and tomb manuscripts, we have a much better knowledge of early graphic forms than what was available to Xu Shen. However, the text is still of use as evidence of Han understandings of graphs and their relationships to one another.​

 

[Sparhawk]

Great to hear from Lewis about the Shuowen and placing it within the Han context, more than anything. Surprised he didn't add anything about the characters in question...

 

[hmesker]

Surprised he didn't add anything about the characters in question...

Ehrm, yes, I was also surprised that he didn't answer that question directly. I guess he indirectly answered it, but I hate it when I have to interpret an e-mail. I won't bother him with it again, I'm sure he has more important things on his mind.

 

[robertluoshu]

Gong and wu

Could the King and Shaman be one and the same?

Quotes are taken directly from the Mark Lewis text, Writing and Authority in Early China, p. 205-06.

GONG – “The character gong (skill, craftsman), which is explained as the image of a person with a compass and carpenter’s square, is also said to have the same meaning as wu. It is likewise the phonetic of gong, which is defined as a large belly.” 50

Footnote 50: “It is interesting in terms of the mythology of Fu Xi to find the carpenter’s square in this complex of characters pertaining to wu and fertility. The gloss on the character wu also insists on the fact that it is synonymous with gong – skill, artisan.”

The footnote references the Shuowen, an unreliable source for accurate explanations of the histories of graphs.

I would like to point out the phrase “insists on the fact…” indicates that Lewis is obviously emphatic of what he believes. He feels that he has license to make such a statement.

However, there is no absolute certainty that the Lewis’ definition of gong is correct or incorrect and when asked directly, Professor Lewis did not retract his intimate connection of gong and wu; nor did he elaborate.

Is Lewis’ definition of gong and the direct correspondence with wu (shaman) a logical explanation?

FLOW CHART FROM GONG TO WU

Could the King and Shaman be one and the same?

A. The flow chart suggests that Gong could be the common denominator to Shaman and King. In fact, shaman has two distinct characters in common with gong. Additionally, Shaman and King share the same glyph with different phonetics.

B. References:

1. Quoting from Sir Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China, vol. III:

”As H. Wilhelm has well said, astronomy was the secret science of priest-kings….For an agricultural economy, astronomical knowledge as regulator of the calendar was of prime importance. He who could give a calendar to the people would become their leader. More especially was this true, says Wittfogel, for an agricultural economy which depended so largely upon artificial irrigation; it was necessary to be forewarned of the melting of the snows and the consequent rise and fall of the rivers and their derivative canals, as well as of the beginning and end of the rainy monsoon season. In ancient and medieval China the promulgation of the calendar by the emperor was a right corresponding to the issues of coins….”

2. Quoting from the Zhou bi suan jing (Chou Pei Suan Ching) from Science and Civisation in China, Vol. III, p. 23

“He who understands the earth is a wise man, and he who understands the heavens is a sage. Knowledge is derived from the straight line.(f) The straight line is derived from the right angle . And the combination of the right angle with numbers is what guides and rules the ten thousand things.”(g)

f - the straight line means the shadow (of the gnomon)
g - right angle or gnomon

Significance of the Gnomon

The gnomon (right angle can be translated as gnomon in footnote g) was the math instrument that identified the calendar and four seasons. The Tai Ji Tu is a symbol of this concept, possibly. The gnomon or right angle was the math instrument of the sage (who knew how to use the compass and carpenter’s square).

The king, emperor, sage, priest-king, sky-priest, and shaman (and perhaps magi or magician) were all interchangeable terms (at one time) when the application of Math was their common linkage.

3. Quoting from Marie Louis von Franz, Number and Time

“…..one of the oldest Chinese shamanistic, divinatory instruments seems to me of peculiar interest. The priests of ancient China made use of two small boards of plates, one round (Yang, “heaven”) and one square (Yin, “earth”)….The interplay of the two boards signified a heiros gamos of heaven and earth, Yang and Yin, in which these two principles exchanged their attributes. As Joseph Needham has shown, this divinatory instrument lay behind the Chinese invention of the compass.”

The divinatory board is known as a liubo (liu po) board and the markings correspond to the TLV Bronze Mirror and the gnomon. See attachment below for an image of the TLV Bronze Mirror and how the circle and square are mathematically incorporated into the design.

A scene from the Wu Liang tomb-shrines (+147 AD) shows magicians at work with the liubo board as well as the legendary culture-heroes Fu Hsi and Nu Wa holding the carpenter’s square and compass, "a reference to the ancient need for measuring and applied mathematics" (Sir Joseph Needham, p. 23, 304, 305).

The reference to establishing order through the application of math is vivid and repetitive throughout early Chinese art and architecture; the gong, the carpenter’s square (gnomon), and the compass were the symbols to express this significant concept.

C. Etymology

The word gnomon comes from the Greek gnomon and gignoskein: interpreter, discerner or one who knows.

Shaman, also can mean one who knows. And of course, the King should be one who knows. Gong, also appears as “one who knows” how to use math instruments and has a skill.

The master of these divine math instruments could acquire divine sage-like knowledge (Astrology and Math, the gift from heaven) and could transform one into the leader of the community.

King (wang) and shaman (ren) were derived from gong because gong is the image of an artisan with math instruments which when used with proper tradition establishes order and prosperity. King and shaman were one and the same whose main function was to set the calendar correctly which would lead to a bountiful harvest.

BOLD STATEMENTS AND THE SCHOLAR (see John Didier, In and Outside the Square)

• Hsu declared that the Sinic graph wu

shows what must have been part of the shamans’ apparatus. I suggest that the apparatus included the carpenter’s square and compass. Hsu makes the argument that wu denoted shaman. Others of course disagree.

• Victor Mair asserts that wu

indicated Iranian magicians or magi.

• John Didier, In and Outside the Square, claims the graph

is similar to wan, or

, the ten thousand things.

At first glance, some of the above statements made by the scholars above may seem like fantasy or storytelling, for example: to suggest that the Chinese glyph

may be of Iranian origin at a time when "yesterdays scholars" believed that China was completely isolated from Persia.

And today, some scholars still believe that China was isolated from Persia 500 to 1,000 BC but the evidence states otherwise.

These are all bold statements to make, however, each scholar felt empowered to make such statements based on their research.

There is no absolute truth; and each of us has license to propose ideas assertively as though fact (if well referenced) as a presentation style in order to provoke thought and discussion on this forum.

 

[robertluoshu]

Gui, Sundial, Hexagrams, and the Gnomon

- 圭 is not a sundial, nor did it ever have that meaning. It's a ceremonial jade tablet, as you already know

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF GUI AS SUNDIAL​

​

In Science and Civilisation in China, Vol. III, Sir Joseph Needham's has five instances that use the glyph 圭 that make reference to sundial:

1. 土圭 - Tu Gui - standard jade tablet (Needham, p. 286)

The earliest measurements of the shadow’s length were no doubt made with the foot–rules of the time, but as it was realized that these varied according to bureaucratic prescription and local custom, a standard jade tablet (thu gui, 土圭 ), which may be called the Gnomon Shadow Template, was made for this purpose only, It is mentioned in the Chou Li:

“A high official, using the gnomon shadow template, determines the distance of the earth below the sun, fixes the exact length of the sun’s shadow, and thus finds the centre of the earth….”

2. 土圭法 - Tu Gui Fa – How to Use the Gnomon Shadow Template (title of book, Needham, p. 207 ff 15)

3. 卦 - Gua - Trigrams (Needham, p. 542)

4. '以土圭之法 - Chang Tu Gui Chi Fa - The Method of the Gnomon Shadow Template (Needham, p. 542)

5. 圭 表 - Gui biao - graduated scale (Needham, p. 298):

In the Yuan Shih, there is an account of the gnomon worth reproducing:

“The graduated scale (gui biao, 圭 表) is made of stone….”

GUI BIAO



The graduated scale, the sundial, and the gnomon have all been referred to as the gui biao, 圭 表 .​

Sir Joseph Needham, p. 303:

Later, in the Sui Shu, there are numerous references to the same kind of instrument for the +6th century. But we here come up against a difficulty which we shall constantly meet with in the technological Sections, namely, that of determining the exact nature of an ancient instrument from the names loosely used for it.

Simply put, gui, 圭 ,was a glyph that referred to an astronomical instrument that incorporated the use of the gnomon to measure time. The instrument or tablet could be made of jade, limestone, or any material that had lines that defined a graduated scale for the specific purpose of measuring time and identifying the four cardinal directions. However, jade was considered a divine material which was ideal for this use.

Whether it is the shadow’s length or direction that is being measured is not relevant, the point is that gui, 圭 , was an astronomical instrument that was a part of the King’s / Shaman’s armamentarium used to divine and prognosticate. And when gui, 圭 , combines with divination (bu), 卜, the word hexagram, 圭卜 , is formed.

And the reason gui 圭 is so significant is because the sundial (gnomon) was the link between Heaven and earth. It was not until the gnomon was developed that humankind could measure time and fix a calendar.

The glyph for jade derives from the glyph for King/Shaman, and this glyph is derived from gong, artisan with his/her tools: the carpenter’s square (gnomon) and compass (sundial).

THE GNOMON VENERATED AS A GOD

The gnomon was an astronomical instrument used to:

1. Identify the four seasons, the solar cycle, and the calendar
2. Identify the four cardinal directions
3. Identify the north south meridian for thousands of miles
4. Identify the circumference of the earth and thereby prove that the world was round
5. Identify the axis mundi, or the center of the universe
6. To divine and prognosticate the future to help prepare for the upcoming changes

An astronomical instrument that could provide a calendar, determine the four cardinal directions, identify the north – south meridian, confirm that the earth was round, and divine the future would be an instrument that would be critical in the evolution and prosperity of humankind.

The Egyptian gnomon or obelisk and Indian stupa were so revered that the instrument was considered to be a god (Martin Isler - Sticks, Stones, and Shadows, p. 16 - 18):

The Indian stupa is a temple constructed around the central axis of a gnomon – a device considered by the Buddhists to be a god. The sides of the stupa were made to face the cardinal points, marked by pillars, niches, or statues of the Buddha if the stupa was circular.

SUNDIAL

From Sir Joseph Needham, p. 305

The graduations appear on one face only. Around the hole or seating at the centre two circles are described with much accuracy, two-thirds of the annular space being divided into equal segments forming hundredths of the circumference. Where the lines meet the outer circle there are a series of small sockets numbered 1-69 in a clockwise direction by characters in ‘small seal’ style. This, and especially the old form of chhi, + ,the number 7, dates the instrument as Former Han, perhaps 2nd century. In addition, there are diagonal lines ending in the V’s, four T’s extending from the central square and circle and four L’s based on the cardinal point lines at the periphery.

The old form of qi, + , resembles the glyph for shaman (wu),

. The correspondence is reasonable as the number seven is intricately related to the calendar (see this post) as are the gnomon and compass (the tools of the sage/king/shaman).

FROM GONG TO WU, KING / SHAMAN​

​

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=117637&postcount=68

GONG - ARTISAN WITH COMPASS AND SQUARE LEADS TO KING/SHAMAN​

The term annular space is another indicator that the gui sundial was used to measure the annual length of the solar cycle; therefore the length of the gnomon's shadow rather than its angle was being observed and measured.

The point of the thread is if the Tai Ji Tu is a tracing based on the gnomon's shadow length as it records the sun's annual orbit. As above, so below.

The gnomon was the human connector to understanding the heavenly orbits and their impact on earth. The divine wisdom of Time was transferred to the sage who used the knowledge of numbers, math, and the gnomon in order to measure time (as in the solar cycle) and space (as in the right angle). Gnomon is derived from gignosco - I know, or knowing in a sense to recognize and interpret certain signs. Gnomon can also mean several different things and can refer to a person, one who knows.

The combination of the gnomon and numbers is what establishes order and rules the ten thousand things.

Zhou bi suan jing​

What is surprising is how the importance of the gnomon has been lost over time.