hexagram 12

Trojina · Jan 30, 2012

Tom you have my permission to delete both my posts and 1 stub as I may not be able to see what is inappropriate here......

chingching · Feb 1, 2012

could hex 12 be representative of indifference?

Trojina · Feb 1, 2012

yes I think so....

chingching · Feb 1, 2012

The opposite of love is not hate but indifference.

Trojina · Feb 1, 2012

yes I think so, well hate often actively seeks to express itself...indifference is just a cold lack of connection. Indifference is not the same as neutrality...indifference is the sense of not being able to touch or reach someone, very hex 12. I have certainly had hex 12 when those I needed to reach were indifferent to my calling out

hate usually seeks an end, its active, it needs to engage....indifference is disengaged, hex 12

Trojina · Feb 1, 2012

though some would say there actually isn't anything that isn't love...that even indifference and hatred are crys for love. I think the Course in Miracles people think this. Its nice...but hex 12 remains as part of our experience anyway

pocossin · Feb 1, 2012

trojan said:
Tom you have my permission to delete both my posts and 1 stub as I may not be able to see what is inappropriate here......

Thank you, Trojan, but as you know, moderators can't do anything without endless soul searching and discussion, and it is funny . . .

chingching · Feb 1, 2012

trojan said:
though some would say there actually isn't anything that isn't love...that even indifference and hatred are crys for love. I think the Course in Miracles people think this. Its nice...but hex 12 remains as part of our experience anyway

Yeah, I can see that. In which case I would take it as a time to stay on my side of the river (thinking of that yi card image here) walk along the bank in a different direction as to keep one's own centre amidst a time where the small are in power. It heartening that this imbalance implies movement and quick change, whether that happens or not though I think is different for different things but situation can't be sustained by inferior elements.

Tohpol · Feb 4, 2012

trojan said:
though some would say there actually isn't anything that isn't love...that even indifference and hatred are crys for love. I think the Course in Miracles people think this. Its nice...but hex 12 remains as part of our experience anyway

It's "nice" yes, but a horrible distortion, in my view. I imagine Course in Miracles suggests that babies come from storks and some fine blue cheese cane be found on the moon too. (Sorry not a CinM fan...)

Trojina · Feb 4, 2012

topal said:
It's "nice" yes, but a horrible distortion, in my view. I imagine Course in Miracles suggests that babies come from storks and some fine blue cheese cane be found on the moon too. (Sorry not a CinM fan...)

I don't know enough about CinM to comment really. I would think it true that everyone wants love and sometimes we try to get it in rather peculiar ways....or don't actually know our own motivations. I don't think hate or indifference are more real than love.

I recall going to a meeting which i didn't know was based on CinM stuff and in some ways their ideas felt very releasing....if you saw all the bad things anyone ever did to you as as a warped and distorted crying out for love it would be so much easier to make peace with bad things that may have happened in your past.

Of course when it came for example to child abuse...they still maintained it was a cry for love and it got into dodgy territory. But I didn't go into it very much...I only know on the a particular day I attended i found it releasing. I guess i took what i wanted from it...but didn't go further in exploring it...it all sounded quite demanding if you wanted to go fully into it

precision grace · Feb 4, 2012

trojan said:
Of course when it came for example to child abuse...they still maintained it was a cry for love and it got into dodgy territory. But I didn't go into it very much...I only know on the a particular day I attended i found it releasing. I guess i took what i wanted from it...but didn't go further in exploring it...it all sounded quite demanding if you wanted to go fully into it

It probably is a cry for love but that doesn't make it right in any way. All those emotions are a part of being alive and it's the choice we make about what to do with them that makes all the difference. You could hate someone's guts but if you never behaved in any way to demonstrate your feelings towards them then it would effect only yourself and not the others. Although some would argue that you cannot feel such powerful emotions without somehow effecting the world around you and that it is impossible to hate someone without it somehow escaping into our behaviour and I would probably agree with them, whoever them are.

heylise · Feb 6, 2012

Sometimes it is a lot healthier to see things as what they are and what they do, than as "results of something else". It is true that many people get distorted because of something which is not their fault. But you should keep your own life healthy. If you are too forgiving towards hurtful things, you might harm yourself and probably even them.
I think hex.12 also has the message of saying no to what is wrong.

Trojina · Feb 6, 2012

heylise said:
Sometimes it is a lot healthier to see things as what they are and what they do, than as "results of something else". It is true that many people get distorted because of something which is not their fault. But you should keep your own life healthy. If you are too forgiving towards hurtful things, you might harm yourself and probably even them.
I think hex.12 also has the message of saying no to what is wrong.

I think you have confused an inner forgiving, letting go of something, ie not carrying hurt within you with the outer 'forgiving' as continuing letting someone walk all over you, hurt you etc etc

To release and inwardly forgive does not mean you would not still say 'no' to a person. Obviously people aren't going to buddy up with their abusers...or anyone who hurt them badly... but then neither do they want the burden of carrying hatred around within them their whole life. For if they do the person has hurt them doubly, the time when did the acts of harm and all the time after when the person carried the memory with them...

Forgiveness does not mean "ah sure it didn't matter what you did" of course it matters, I think they meant more an inner releasing, so that memory doesn't poison anymore, because you have released it...and I'm not sure you can release unless you can forgive it. Its a whole lot easier to let something go and forgive it if you can see the action as a very distorted wounded 'crying out'. So you can inwardly let go of the poison...but still never have anything more connectionwith the person if you choose to....but neither do you have to carry them around in your head. In this respect it is actually much healthier to manage to forgive....than to be eaten up with victimised feelings your whole life., I imagine. Its easier said than done, but it is the way forward for more health thats for sure .

It will often ease peoples burden of hatred for a parent who abused them for example, if they understand he himself was abused. This does not mean they allow abuse to continue ! It means they just don't have to carry the burden of hatred along with the wounds they already carry

heylise · Feb 7, 2012

Cannot agree more. This kind of forgiving is the only way to go on living instead of trodding on step after step, dragging the past along with you.

What I meant was the forgiveness many people show towards people who hurt others as a result of what others did to them. An abusive parent who was abused as a child, a criminal who got no chance for a decent life where he grew up. Things like that.

Often the offender gets more attention and understanding than the victim. Social workers trying to understand his soul, or psychiatrists figuring out his reasons.

When someone is grown up his/her youth is no excuse anymore for wrong actions. Or what another did for what you do yourself.

Might be that I am too emotional. I finally got someone out of my hair by seeing this persons actions as simply wrong. No "cannot help it" or "has a hard time" or whatever other excuse. Just wrong, clear and simple, and me staying free of it.

(Is not someone who has ever been in Clarity by the way)

hilary · Feb 8, 2012

I associate that kind of realisation with 12: noticing that someone's effect on me/ actions towards me are always negative. Or noticing the same for a situation or a culture: this is essentially destructive. Possibly in interaction with other people they are/ it is perfectly nice. Doesn't matter. Not good. Say 'no'. It all becomes very simple, where previously I might have spent hours at a time trying to work out what I'd done wrong, interpret better and make allowances more sensitively, trying to repair things, always feeling worse than ever at the end of it.

An oracle can be a great time- and energy-saver, can't it?

chingching · Feb 8, 2012

hilary said:
I associate that kind of realisation with 12: noticing that someone's effect on me/ actions towards me are always negative. Or noticing the same for a situation or a culture: this is essentially destructive. Possibly in interaction with other people they are/ it is perfectly nice. Doesn't matter. Not good. Say 'no'. It all becomes very simple, where previously I might have spent hours at a time trying to work out what I'd done wrong, interpret better and make allowances more sensitively, trying to repair things, always feeling worse than ever at the end of it.

An oracle can be a great time- and energy-saver, can't it?

... if you listen to yi...:bag:

I think it was bradford that said once about evil being bu dao, (sp?) being off the path. A couple of times I've had 12 I've not understood why that direction or person is not working for me except that things start to move again for me when I get back on my path. In these cases the 12 of things was much more subtle and the negative effect of people on me wasn't because they were doing or being wrong, in fact they barely did anything at all, it just was not on the path so to speak. Frankly I'm still mystified but ultimately the yi reading was correct.

Trojina · Feb 8, 2012

all the talk on hex 12 being a simple 'no' really doesn't work if it is cast in a question on relationships with ones inescapable intimates...parents for example, or ones children.

I don't think hex 12 = 'no'. I think it can equal 'this isn't working', or 'theres no connection now' so naturally that sometimes will result in a 'no' but I don't think it means 'just don't think about this at all and say no'

And anyway hex 12 can equally refer to ones own state....

chingching · Feb 8, 2012

yeah and you can look at it as other people are a reflection of one's own inner state anyway. etc. etc.

In both cases, external people, internal influences I always wonder well how did those lower aspects/small people get into power in the first place, a result of laziness perhaps?

Trojina · Feb 8, 2012

chingching said:
... if you listen to yi...:bag:

I think it was bradford that said once about evil being bu dao, (sp?) being off the path. A couple of times I've had 12 I've not understood why that direction or person is not working for me except that things start to move again for me when I get back on my path. In these cases the 12 of things was much more subtle and the negative effect of people on me wasn't because they were doing or being wrong, in fact they barely did anything at all, it just was not on the path so to speak. Frankly I'm still mystified but ultimately the yi reading was correct.

yes...i think that is my experience too.

Later I've seen that not to move beyond the 12 situation would have resulted in stagnation...even if at the time the 12 situation or people were something one very much wanted to be with

Other times as I said above one may live through a long term fairly intimate 12 kind of relationship...where saying 'no' and walking off is neither desirable or possible.

Sometimes I think one mighthave a lifetime connecton that is chatacterised by 12...one may never be known or understood by that person....the relationship still continues and one learns how 12 feels and how to live in it in that relationship

of course if its a boyfriend or a friend 'no' is an option, but a parent, a child , a nephew, a grand parent...a dying husband ?...it isn't always.

So if 12 is long term condition between people that characterises their relationship....and there really is no overt wrong doing happening...it is just a lack of connection...then how does 12 advise one live within that or adapt to it ?

Thats just a general thought I'm not asking you in particular

Trojina · Feb 8, 2012

chingching said:
yeah and you can look at it as other people are a reflection of one's own inner state anyway. etc. etc.

In both cases, external people, internal influences I always wonder well how did those lower aspects/small people get into power in the first place, a result of laziness perhaps?

seem to be crossing posts...but I think perhaps the whole notion of the small and inferrior is often only that which really doesn't lie in the path of our personal progression. Hex 12 is useful in blocking roads that go nowhere. This doesn't mean those people or situations that embody this block are necessarily bad or inferior at all of themselves, though they may be sometimes

...but then to repeat, sometimes 12 can be along term place to be. Had a thread with hx 12 unchanging and my back problems somewhere here along time ago. I think I understand it more now. Its like having a parent you are in 12 with...you don't say 'bye bye I'll never see you again' (unless its extreme of course)...its a condition that exists. Thats how i see this now...it exists as a state http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5475 no use to say 'no'

chingching · Feb 8, 2012

well I just wrote a very long reply and hit backspace by mistake and its all gone...

will reprise but for now i just wanted to say yes!

Later I've seen that not to move beyond the 12 situation would have resulted in stagnation...even if at the time the 12 situation or people were something one very much wanted to be with

chingching · Feb 8, 2012

I used to tell my clients that all the time, they need to accept their pain before we could move it. Particularly with people older, there was a trend of wanting to find the one thing that would unravel the whole mess, and bodies just aren't like that, there is no magic bullet. For myself I have worked through back pain, sciatica, rsi, persistent joint inflammation and right now have had 'annoying shoulder pain syndrome' for the past three years. That one goes away when I take the time to connect with it, let it be the dictator of events in a way, but that's going a little off the subject.

What I had written before though was that I find Wilhelm's words helpful as advice and would be particularly so for those inextricable relationships you are talking about

Thus the superior man falls back upon his inner worth
In order to escape the difficulties.
He does not permit himself to be honoured with revenue.

So in a 12 time you don't get anything out of it, except perhaps the realisation of one's own self worth.

Is it so when you go through something so difficult, in those terms, and you do find the hidden gold... you cant show off your hard won prize or sometimes even explain it to people because often they don't really get it, because only people who have been to the same place can really get it. What's gained, what's really of worth is beyond words, beyond salary.

I've always noted about people who have lost a loved one, when they regain their ground/ start socialising again they seem more like themselves than ever before. I mean, and that isn't directly to do with 12, but death and loss in general.

I think saying no in the midst of staying and coupled with loss requires true selflessness, do we as humans ever really celebrate this really? not really, I think only the person who has surrendered themselves to such selflessness actually knows what they have, who they are and what their true worth is. And maybe they need to be in the presence of the small externally to give them the opportunity to go internally to find the great.

I've said this before about 12, inherently its not a sustainable energy (well nothing is in yi , yes, the book of changes...) and as you've said here and before those roadblocks can be your best friend! but they must only be that energy whilst you are moving off the path, it has to rebalance.

my own bemusement at 12.6 and this thread and other discussion on 12 still lead me to think that 12.6 is moving on entirely, whatever I've felt blocked from the only unblocking that happens is moving on to something else, which often feels more like my true path.

chingching · Feb 8, 2012

oh I remember my first thought

we can only find our potential greatness in recognising what is small and choosing greatness instead, even in those contracted relationships, which amplify this, we are given the opportunity to choose above and not below.

rilke

How should we be able to forget those ancient myths about dragons that at the last moment turn into princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave.

heylise · Feb 12, 2012

And some toads are princes who are only waiting to be seen once beautiful and brave.

Sorry, maybe it has nothing to do with the thread, but I couldn't resist. So many people could be princes and princesses if we would just allow them. Fake it until they make it.

hilary · Feb 12, 2012

And somewhere in the archives we had a lovely, long discussion about 12's 'unpeople' or 'bad people', which Legge memorably translates as 'the want of understanding between men'. Sometimes 12 is just someone saying, 'Well, he's a toad, of course this isn't getting anywhere!'
(And sometimes it is, in fact, a toad.)

Chingching, I think a lot of what you're saying is reflected in the nuclear hexagram of 12. The heart of it might just be an occasion to grow roots into the rocks, or marry into your whole life.

chingching · Feb 13, 2012

heylise said:
And some toads are princes who are only waiting to be seen once beautiful and brave.

Sorry, maybe it has nothing to do with the thread, but I couldn't resist. So many people could be princes and princesses if we would just allow them. Fake it until they make it.

yes, and for some reason this gives me the image that 12 could be two people trying to shake hands with their bottoms when they need to turn around and face each other , and just use their hands.

(kind of how when some people hug you they hold most of their body away from you...its just not a real hug)

itsyourlife · Apr 23, 2012

these old threads got a lotta juice!!!

real juice.

from fruits.

answeredquestions · Apr 27, 2012

heylise said:
Sometimes it is a lot healthier to see things as what they are and what they do, than as "results of something else". It is true that many people get distorted because of something which is not their fault. But you should keep your own life healthy. If you are too forgiving towards hurtful things, you might harm yourself and probably even them.
I think hex.12 also has the message of saying no to what is wrong.

heylise said:
Cannot agree more. This kind of forgiving is the only way to go on living instead of trodding on step after step, dragging the past along with you.

What I meant was the forgiveness many people show towards people who hurt others as a result of what others did to them. An abusive parent who was abused as a child, a criminal who got no chance for a decent life where he grew up. Things like that.

Often the offender gets more attention and understanding than the victim. Social workers trying to understand his soul, or psychiatrists figuring out his reasons.

When someone is grown up his/her youth is no excuse anymore for wrong actions. Or what another did for what you do yourself.

Might be that I am too emotional. I finally got someone out of my hair by seeing this persons actions as simply wrong. No "cannot help it" or "has a hard time" or whatever other excuse. Just wrong, clear and simple, and me staying free of it.

(Is not someone who has ever been in Clarity by the way)

this is striking a major chord. 12 is making a lot of sense to me...

About 12.1, is this a time where it is at the beginning of this saying no process you think?

bradford · Apr 27, 2012

AQ-
LiSe has a very clear understanding of 12 here.

answeredquestions · Apr 27, 2012

bradford said:
AQ-
LiSe has a very clear understanding of 12 here.

I think you are right.. I have received 12 and when reading what LiSe has said here on this thread, it couldn't have made better sense. Hit the nail on the head so to speak.

Yet it is unclear to me what 12.1's advice is. I get this picture of someone pulling pulling pulling and more and more connected roots and weeds appear. Like someone is trying to mend something and they didn't realize that so much was connected to it (or that it contained so much) and a lot of effort will be needed. If I understand 12 correctly, the constancy/determination/perserverance (貞 to remain loyal to?) in line 1 would be to continue in the saying no process?

I was wondering if anyone has a clear idea of the process for line 1?

I have two very opposite ideas in mind:

One is to interact with the roots - 'saying no' (and all that comes with that) would be the same act as pulling the grass out. Like alll of the roots being pulled are little no's.

Two is to not interact with the roots- To walking away from the entangled root system. Kind of like, there is nothing that can be done because the weeds will continue to pop up endlessly.

For me it is a very vivid line and I love when the Yi uses plant life to get a point across

hexagram 12

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