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hexagram 12

esolo

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I get so confused about this one. It's called "Stagnation" by Wilhelm but whenever I've received it it's about something more like hexagram 38, a separation, two things being apart from one another. What is this 'stagnation' nonsense? Are things stagnating because there's no connection there, no mingling of heaven and earth?
 

bradford

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I get so confused about this one. It's called "Stagnation" by Wilhelm but whenever I've received it it's about something more like hexagram 38, a separation, two things being apart from one another. What is this 'stagnation' nonsense? Are things stagnating because there's no connection there, no mingling of heaven and earth?

Yes. Without the interplay of high and low the situation is barren.
 

crystal_blue

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I get so confused about this one. It's called "Stagnation" by Wilhelm but whenever I've received it it's about something more like hexagram 38, a separation, two things being apart from one another. What is this 'stagnation' nonsense? Are things stagnating because there's no connection there, no mingling of heaven and earth?

Things have failed to move forward - Earth within Heaven, the strength attained has degenerated into weakness.
 

bradford

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It might be worth adding that a lot of people translate Pi (the Hexagram name) poorly as Opposition, a word better suited to 06 than to 12 or even 38. The forces are indeed moving in opposite directions, but they are not opposing each other - they're going their separate ways.
 

rosada

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Have you checked out what people posted about hex. 12 on the Memorizing The I Ching thread, esolo? Several people including Hilary have shared some very helpful insights there. I think of 12.Standstill in terms of it's place in the sequence. Consider the pleasant Peacefulness of 11 deteriorating into a sort of listless stagnation in 12.
The long running Broadway show, The Fantasticks, had a song, "This Peach is Too Ripe." The lyrics perfectly discribed the sence of ennui, the sence of This love is so boring, isn't there anything to fight over?
 

dobro p

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Hex 12 means that things aren't flowing; flow is blocked. Hex 12 is like congestion or constipation or something.

Hex 38 is about polarized forces - it isn't that flow is blocked, it's that forces are pulling in entirely different directions.

Hex 6 is about contention; forces are going head to head. And appealing to higher authority. "It's not fair!"
 
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lightofreason

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Hex 12 means that things aren't flowing; flow is blocked. Hex 12 is like congestion or constipation or something

Nothing of the sort. Most of the posts on this thread show stagnate thinking, taking Wilhelm, customising him, and presenting that as 'fact'.

Wilhelm 'lacks precision'. If you depend on his text then you are severely limiting yourself - as you are if you stick to traditionalist perspectives.

12 Standstill (Stagnation)
Neutralizing, Blocking, Firming
In a context of devotion we utilise singlemindedness.

"PI : closed, stopped; bar the way; obstacle; unfortunate, wicked; refuse, disapprove, deny. The ideogram: mouth and not, blocked communication" ERANOS p197

Where is 'stagnation' in this? or 'standstill' for that matter? When you compare 11 with 12 the shared theme is on issues with mediation and the use of balance - here the mediation is biased to promoting NO CHANGE in that one defends the attacks of others, parry's them, on one's beliefs and in doing so verifies those beliefs. BUT from the I Ching focus on CHANGE this is a no-no and so it complains about this by pushing the standstill/stagnation perspective when the fact is there is BOTH positive and negative here with the positive being in standing up for one's faith (the variation on a theme here is with hexagram 25 - the only difference being the bottom line)).

Hex 11 on the other hand promotes mediation to elicit change (just as 12 uses mediation to avoid it).

The infrastructure of 12 is described by analogy to 17 and that brings out the generic focus on 'following' - finding a belief/faith and sticking to it.

12 shares space with 45 and ITS cooperative form of dealing with faith through celebration as compared to 12s competitive form. (there is also the theme in 12 of fasting and 45 brings out the feast pre/post the fasting)

THere is a LOT more in that we can get the IC to describe itself due to its creation from self-referencing.

You traditionalists REALLY need to get out more and move into the 21st century AD - your current perspectives on generic meanings are embarrasingly simplistic and at time HIGHLY misleading. Wilhelm may have been fine in the 19th to 20th centuries but we have moved on and so his interpretation needs a rewrite!


The emphasis on stagnation/standstill is thus not about the hexagram but about the consequence; if i hold on to a belief then I am being rigid, inflexible and so, over time, will become sterile, dead, since 'change is inevitable' etc - however that is over a long time period such that a LOCAL degree of being rigid in belief etc can be useful.


Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Oh gee sorry, Chris. I was wrong.

no. you were not wrong, you were slack. biased. 'entrained' by traditional perspectives that are subsets of the meanings but presented as if the full meanings - this is call metonymy - part-for-whole representations and is a property of symmetric thinking. ;-)

The issues present are in the biases that local expressions present when those are then treated AS IF the whole expression - and so Wilhelm is taken as if gospel and the symmetric form of learning is by rote, copying others. That is fine unless the orginator was biased - and WIlhelm was, be it by intent or ignorance regarding what is behind the IC. Thus his bias in treated as if the whole and people then make customisations WITHIN that original customisation - smaller world networks out of small world networks!

The patterns of the GENERIC qualities/categories of the I Ching are identifiable once one understands what comes out of self-referencing. Thus 12 covers generic issues of wholeness (blending) and identity. There is positive and negative in this but the trend by traditionalists is to focus on the negative and that is 'wrong' in the context of 'tell me about hexagram 12'. (A good, constant, example of this slackness and smaller world from a small world is in willowfox's interpretations).

Behind the traditional I Ching is the universal form where the IC is a metaphor for what our brains do - not chinese brains or caucasian brains but ALL brains, and especially those of OUR species.

Chris.
 

dobro p

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no. you were not wrong, you were slack.

Yes, that's right - I was slack. I didn't explain my meaning clearly enough - the heart of my meaning for Hex 12 is that of blocked communication, blowed flow - I see the two things as the same, or similar, or parallel enough to be included in the meaning of Hex 12. But I feel that even if I had explained my idea as fully and clearly as I could have (instead of responding as I did in terms that I thought the original poster would understand best), you probably would have found fault with my ideas because you see everything I see and say about the Yi as faulty because, in your eyes, it rests on a faulty foundation.

You seem to *so* want to find fault with somebody right now and tell them how they don't see and don't understand. Okay, I'm your man. Tell me. But you know what? Although you can get the junky thrill out of telling yet another person yet another time on this board that they just don't get it, it's not actually going to achieve anything other than that junky thrill. I'm not going to change just because you keep telling me I'm an idiot. In fact, quite the opposite. I'll resist your attempts to change me, because I do not take anyone seriously who so consistently ignores me as a person with feelings and a level of understanding that CANNOT BE OUTGROWN UNTIL IT IS TIME TO DO SO. I understand that truth, and that's why I never lean on people to change, even if I think it would be in their best interests to change.

And *that*, my friend, is why I'm smarter than you, despite the fact you have a brain the size of a planet and a system that the world is just not bright enough to understand and applaud you for. You might be smart about the Yi you've invented, but you're really, really stupid about people. I'm not as stupid about people as you are, and *that* is why I'm not going to try to convince you of the truth of what I'm saying.

Over and out.
 

martin

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But that sounds great!
'I often blow my flow.'
'Sorry to blow your flow again but ...'

:D
 
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Trojina

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Look Chris if you want to call Dobro wrong - get in line huh I was there first :rofl:
 

Trojina

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But that sounds great!
'If often blow my flow.'
'Sorry to blow your flow again but ...'

:D

Yeah it has a poetic ring to it "Hey man don't blow my flow..."
 
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lightofreason

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Look Chris if you want to call Dobro wrong - get in line huh I was there first :rofl:

LOL!

Interesting reply from dobro. No where did I say 'stupid' etc - all I said was 'slack'. the rest was dobro's imagination and general opinion of self!

If someone comes along and says 'what is it about hx 12' then those who consider themselves knowledgable to reply should do so covering as much of the full spectrum of a hexagram's meaning as possible - most dont in that they are tied to Wilhelm et al and give casual, flippant, responses that are not helpful and overall are misleading.

Dobro has enough experience to know this but has chosen to be slack and try and be 'simple' where simplicity is NOT what is required - DETAIL is required to help flesh out hexagram 12 pasts its Wilhelm title. As such dobro, aka winston, commited 'thought crime' and I, as Mr smith, worked on 'correcting' such ;-) - at least in our world dobro has the right to now go off in a huff ;-)

Chris.
 

pakua

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LOL!

Interesting reply from dobro. No where did I say 'stupid' etc - all I said was 'slack'. the rest was dobro's imagination and general opinion of self!

If someone comes along and says 'what is it about hx 12' then those who consider themselves knowledgable to reply should do so covering as much of the full spectrum of a hexagram's meaning as possible - most dont in that they are tied to Wilhelm et al and give casual, flippant, responses that are not helpful and overall are misleading.

Dobro has enough experience to know this but has chosen to be slack and try and be 'simple' where simplicity is NOT what is required - DETAIL is required to help flesh out hexagram 12 pasts its Wilhelm title. As such dobro, aka winston, commited 'thought crime' and I, as Mr smith, worked on 'correcting' such ;-) - at least in our world dobro has the right to now go off in a huff ;-)

Chris.

The point is if you want to "teach" people, then you need to exercise more tact and diplomacy. Otherwise you see the results you have seen until now.

Perhaps you're forgetting that you're dealing with people, not just thoughts and ideas?
 
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lightofreason

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The point is if you want to "teach" people, then you need to exercise more tact and diplomacy. Otherwise you see the results you have seen until now.

Perhaps you're forgetting that you're dealing with people, not just thoughts and ideas?

(1) I dont teach. Dobro has been on this list and working with the IC long enough to know the limitations of the traditional sequence and as such when someone asks 'tell me about hexagram 12' giving the response presented was guilty of 'thought crime' (as were most others who presented the same, traditional sequence biased, interpretations)

(2) I believe in provocative therapy - it gets people off their reactive arses and so in proactive, competitive (but fun) mode that is creative and can lead to insights etc... or it can lead to some going off in a huff - but thats fine since their anger can serve to bring out competitive arguement that can be beneficial in the long run (even if anti me it can still get them to focus more clearly on their IC interpretations and THAT is the focus overall, not on me, on the IC ;-))

Chris.
 

martin

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Therapy? You as a therapist? YOU?!

OMG! Heeeelp, mayday! mayday! SOS!!

:rofl:
 

getojack

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Chris wrote:

"even if anti me it can still get them to focus more clearly on their IC interpretations and THAT is the focus overall, not on me, on the IC"

Replace subject and object in this statement and you'll have a truer picture of Chris's subconscious...

"even if anti them it can still get me to focus more clearly on my IC interpretations and THAT is the focus overall, not on them, on the IC"

I've found this method useful in analyzing Chris's ramblings... when he talks about someone else, he is often actually subconsciously talking about himself. Similarly, he seems to have a somewhat paranoid view that everything is an attack on him.

I'm afraid our time is up, Chris...that'll be $200...see you this time next week for our next provocative therapy session?
 
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lightofreason

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...I'm afraid our time is up, Chris...that'll be $200...see you this time next week for our next provocative therapy session?

I found your comments/analysis amusing but also primitive and so obviously the product of a con artist - full of flim-flam.

No $200. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go.
 

pakua

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(1) I dont teach. Dobro has been on this list and working with the IC long enough to know the limitations of the traditional sequence and as such when someone asks 'tell me about hexagram 12' giving the response presented was guilty of 'thought crime' (as were most others who presented the same, traditional sequence biased, interpretations)


(2) I believe in provocative therapy - it gets people off their reactive arses and so in proactive, competitive (but fun) mode that is creative and can lead to insights etc... or it can lead to some going off in a huff - but thats fine since their anger can serve to bring out competitive arguement that can be beneficial in the long run (even if anti me it can still get them to focus more clearly on their IC interpretations and THAT is the focus overall, not on me, on the IC ;-))


Chris.

1. This doesn't really fit mine or others' observations - unless you prefer a different word than "teaching"?

2. Do you generally find that to be a successful strategy? And "fun" for whom?
 
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lightofreason

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..2. Do you generally find that to be a successful strategy? And "fun" for whom?


sure - for those interested in the interactions. one cannot please all of the people all of the time thus one needs to be selective, to focus on quality ;-) - pushing buttons can bring that out.

:cool:
 

pakua

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sure - for those interested in the interactions. one cannot please all of the people all of the time thus one needs to be selective, to focus on quality ;-) - pushing buttons can bring that out.

:cool:

How about "pleasing nobody most of the time". That's what pushing buttons usually results in. Although I suppose it depends on how you push the buttons.

Is there a hex and/or line which specifically supports this position? ie pushing buttons to force insights.
 
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lightofreason

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How about "pleasing nobody most of the time". That's what pushing buttons usually results in. Although I suppose it depends on how you push the buttons.

Is there a hex and/or line which specifically supports this position? ie pushing buttons to force insights.

sure : hexagram 01 - perseverance doubled gives us singlmindedness - competitive and "The Creative"

the focus for heaven associated hexagrams is on competitive exchange. The 'balanced form' of this mediation is in hex 11, the exaggerated, intense, form is hex 01. They makeup the poles of:

11,26,05,09,34,14,43,01

(34 has a focus on beginnings through being actively 'invigorated' as compard to 20 that is passive (you see someone 'standing out' and admire/copy. In 34 you get personally 'prodded' into action)

We can tone it down to cooperative exchange (and so a sexual element) through associations with lake:

19,41,60,61,54,38,58,10

The heaven focus covers a interaction to refine/test skills and so covers training from a 'hands on' position (martial arts but in both a physical and mental form ;-))

By being competitive, even in fun, in play, is creative in that it is discrete, encourages precision in thinking/action. By refining skills one becomes more efficient and conserves energy over the long run (the training leads to development of instincts/habits that go to enabling a filtration focus - represented in the trigrams of earth and mountain) - the issue is that to maintain skills requires perpetual training when in a dynamic context but as one matures so all of the 'dots' can link up to derive an associative memory that allows for good intuitive use of the skills.

'newbies' or those who let their skills diminish need 'exercise' to improve/refine those skills. ;-)

BTW - note that the realm of the discrete is the realm of clear distinction-making. The making of distinctions elicits borders and so lets loose what lives on borders - complexity/chaos dynamics and so the possibility of 'emergence'.

With the development of skills comes a focus on 'best practice'. With THAT comes 'singlemindedness' presented in a GROUP and THAT introduces the possibility of phase transition and so transcendence of the group as well as the individual.


BTW - we must not forget the singlemindedness hexagram octet:

12,33,06,44,25,13,10,01

The shared hexagram being 01 (as in sharing with the perseverence based hexagrams given above - 11 to 01)

Chris.
 
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rosada

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I asked the I Ching for a hex or line to support pushing bottons to force insights and received..

12.4.5 > 23

12.4 One feels called upon to enlighten the masses..

12.5 But fearful they may not get the message, one uses every method conceivable to get the point across.

Unfortunately this approach..

23. Doesn't win any converts.
 
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sophia pema

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Hexagram 12

Yes. Without the interplay of high and low the situation is barren.

I just received this hexagram, with line 1 moving.

The image that appeared to me was dense, dry ground, with clear water bubbling out of a pencil hole size break in the dry ground. The water was flowing gently, persistently softening the ground without damage. A powerful rush of water from without would split the ground.

Regarding the discussion on standstill (stagnation)/obstruction/results of standing firm in one's view or faith/ - the context is how to respond to a reversal of active give and take of heaven/earth energies. The tiny persistent trickle of water will be stronger than the dry hard ground, in time.

Any thoughts?
 

itsyourlife

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I just received this hexagram, with line 1 moving.

The image that appeared to me was dense, dry ground, with clear water bubbling out of a pencil hole size break in the dry ground. The water was flowing gently, persistently softening the ground without damage. A powerful rush of water from without would split the ground.

Regarding the discussion on standstill (stagnation)/obstruction/results of standing firm in one's view or faith/ - the context is how to respond to a reversal of active give and take of heaven/earth energies. The tiny persistent trickle of water will be stronger than the dry hard ground, in time.

Any thoughts?

thats an interesting image you saw in 12.1

i just got 12.5, and im seeing my situation in 12.5 > 35 as two separate situations happening at the same time in my life.

one relates like the dense dry hard ground, the other like steady spurting like water...maybe like a persisting gentle wind, but more bubbly

the steady stream, all forms of (positive/progress oriented) communication vs. the hard, dry ground (blockage, no communication/affirmation/inspiration)

being stuck on this hard, almost too hard reality/situation/orientation, but also allowing/noticing/learning from 12(.1), letting this other situation i was looking for anyway turn up unexpected, and it happening im seeing as 12.5..
but these two lines i think would lead to 21, implying there is something there thats meant to come together
but only if the ground is not so hard it is waterproof,
and that the water isnt so strong or too weak that it doesnt mix with the ground/soil
so that when it does over take the ground
(from the inside: maybe due to discernment and choosing what output from the situation/s you should intake that suggest and promote progress)
it isnt all muddy or that there are remnant particles or whatever, but rather soaks it thoroughly and the dry hard ground becomes moist soil.

like for some reason im on the hard ground, and im into it so much for some reason- the illusion of secure reality (solid ground), but because as im walking on it, living it, its so hard its like, barren, so actually, im not feeling it, so i dont plug this leak that i sprung and now im noticing that this leak is kind of feeling, good, refreshing, feels way different from the packed dirt, as it starts it seems to be weakening the crust, if i learn from what i got/am getting into this packed dirt situation maybe this sweet leak, will start a kind of new life.

21.5 > 35 is that ok you know what is up, you know what hasnt worked and what causes these blocks, these episodes of {t.v. snow} something so nice turn into nothing.
do you want to keep watching this t.v. ? they switched to digital now, your rabbit ears wont help jack... ok meanwhile you get an email, you get a text, you get a phone call. you are invited over, you are being reassured you are adored, there is free flowing communication, how to respond to it? keep sitting and watching the damn t.v. snow, sometimes some lines show up for a second, or hey, turn it off or just get up, walk away and check out this other situation, its not like watching tv, its not like walking on solid ground but its more real somehow, its coming from everywhere, it nourishes, and is multi level in regards to information sharing... nice to nicer or noting the nice turn to boring/dry mouth-so being active yet cautious notice, meet and give the right amount of space and care the new situation and progress into that actual flexible dynamic indefinable state of being that you really need instead of that barren secure illusion of something you so thought you wanted while you were watching tv.
 

chingching

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itsyourlife, do you know this is an old thread? I'm not sure sophia pema is here to respond to you. Glad you resurrected it though, very rich thread and as always c.loftings outrageous statements makes for a good read.

oh hex 12, if you were my sister I would find myself saying to people ' I love her but I just don't know what to do with her.'
 

Trojina

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Therapy? You as a therapist? YOU?!

OMG! Heeeelp, mayday! mayday! SOS!!

:rofl:

ah what the hell...I quoted this cos I thought it was funny....then I thought maybe I shouldn't since both parties in the exchange are dead..so I deleted it..but then what the hell....I still find it funny :rofl:
 

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