Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Hi Charly,
I tried to figure out what you mean with plum blossom method. ...
See here about Da Liu and Lilian Too
... So we can start again a nice discussion about: What is weak and what is strong? *lol*.
I would see it as a strong Character which turns out soft. Strong principles, soft acting.
To all: I would like to say that I don`t see the flexible, the weak as the weak we use it in western language. If we use the word weak in western language we always mean something not good. I eastern language it is just the opposite of Yang. One of the two basic forces and there is never meant "something not good". ...
A question: I asked myself if there is a english translation of the I Ching and I don`t mean a english translation of the Richard Wilhelm translation but one direct translation from the original I Ching, do you have a clue?
Jou Tsung Hwa / Sherrill / Plum Blossom
mmm, I'm not so sure of this, and as an artist yourself, I'm a little surprised at your use of the words language and meaning. Can you say about each of your art pieces, this is a language which has meaning? I sure can't, which is why I define what I play as "no music". You, as a listener may interpret what it says to you, but that's your interpretation, the meaning you have given to what I have played. Music, dance, art of all kinds stirs the hearts and minds of mankind, usually as locally interpreted. But when I play, and it is a language, I'm with you there, but the language says, in what we typically call language, what it says to the listener, and listeners hear things differently.
So, it may be a statement, or it may have no intended language or meaning at all to the one who creates it, it may just be no-music to them.
Also, I usually think in dream-like moving pictures, conversations and scenarios, not so much in words, other than a script for the actors to follow.
But I like your entire post, even if it doesn't match my way of thinking.
Yes, only I'd call it interpretation of language rather than judgments and definitions, and while there may appear to be little difference, I think the difference is significant. Interpretation is purely personal, while judgments and definitions tend to be collectively categorized, even when the personal interpretations may vary: heaven is heaven to everyone who has even a basic understanding of the IC structure. Heaven, it is agreed unanimously, is the first hexagram; secondly, it is half of the big pie or picture. And it's generally agreed that it is the male principle in nature and philosophy.
All those differences that also exist on a more personal level, is interpretation.
Language can be either. I think we probably agree on that. laadeedee da dobop do-Wha...Uh!
I was said not to begin with Lilian Too book, but I've no opinion on it. I believe that it's preferable to begin with Jou Tsun Hwa wich is available in the web and very practice-oriented. After it more specialized are Liu Da Jun and Sherrill.
Here can see a commentary by Harmen Mesker, he also advices Liu Da Jun
From people related wit this forum there are:
LiSe (Lotty Heyboer), I advice to begin with her site whose first name was «The Book of the Moon», Bradford (many pdf available in his site), Gia Fu Feng (with Frank Kegan in his site Stars and Dices), Tuk Chang (also have a site with his entire book), Freeman Crouch (available the wole book in Google Books), Margaret Pearson, Hilary... did I forget any?
There are many other resources in the web that I can tell you later. After reading LiSe, or maybe at the same time, I advice you a not well known translator, parcially availabe in Google Books: KOH KOK KIANG, The Illustrated Guide of I Ching, a comic-like book of changes.
I didn't say that I prefer the FLEXIBLE over the STRONG, altough it's maybe true, but that I prefer to transalate FLEXIBLE the character 柔 rou2, a compound of lance over a tree.
The character for lance, spear is the protograf of another character (mao2) wich means REEDS, RUSHES, GRASS, THATCH.
Of course, character rou2 can be translated as WEAK or even worse as YIELDEING or SUBMISSIVE, all compliant with the ideology of male superiority. But rou2 also means «soft and tender / amiable / pliant / gentle / supple / the new grass budding in spring» [Richard Sears].
Even more, there is a hidden stream of thinking, early attested by the Dao De Jing, that believes that women always defeat men, that there is a strong energy below female tenderness and that male strenght is scarce and requires lernt wisdom and adquired skills for self control.
Of course, male and female energies are equals in rights in the YIN / YANG THEORY, but in chinese language connotations yin is less than yang. I believe that we must made efforts to avoid mistakes and prejudices.
Hi, Ivonne:... Don`t know exactly where to start, but probably at Lise`s site.
Don't worry. Sometimes I don't understand myself. I've said why to render WEAK, SUBMISSIVE or YIELDING a character that also means SOFT, GENTLE, TENDER ...?I don`t understand a word...
Of course that I don't agree, but I know that many people think so. Only that I believe tha's not natural at all and that chinese thinking was not always driven by the idea of yang supremacy. It was built during the process that led to empire organization, being dominant during HAN dynasty.Yin is not only less in chinese language connotations it is also less in Yin/Yang theory because one of both has to be less. ...
So in the hierarchy of forces the Yang is "above" Yin... So Yin follows Yang and that is the reason for this "hierarchy". But that is a completly natural hierarchy ...
About "Battle" between the sexes: *lol* Charly I guess this really is a big question for you, isn`t it? I guess the Yin has got good chances if it keep itself to it`s nature
Hexagramm 9 line 6:
Nine at the top means:
The rain comes, there is rest.
This is due to the lasting effect of character.
Perseverance brings the woman into danger.
The moon is nearly full.
If the superior man ...
So I tell you our (female) "tricks", hope you appreciate it...
With best wishes, Yvonne
Then we have something in common.Don't worry. Sometimes I don't understand myself.
I've said why to render WEAK, SUBMISSIVE or YIELDING a character that also means SOFT, GENTLE, TENDER ...?
of course that the FLESH IS WEAK and I prefer TENDER MEAT.
Of course that I don't agree, but I know that many people think so. Only that I believe tha's not natural at all and that chinese thinking was not always driven by the idea of yang supremacy. It was built during the process that led to empire organization, being dominant during HAN dynasty.
In Zhou times YIN/YANG ideas weren't yet full developed and were not so negative with WOMEN.
I don't understand, but meanwhile be BATTLES OF LOVE not serious.
You know that Wilhelm didn't speak of SUPERIOR MEN and maybe you already suspect that he was teaching hiddenly some MALE tricks. Say, he was giving advice on chinese traditional bedchamber arts.
P.D.:
I was said that the ideal chinese girl was always shy and submissive.
Every time I believd to find a shy and submissive girl, experience ended teaching me that I was wrong! Maybe it was preferable so, I don't complain.
I have the feeling that Confucius thinked the same, but he did complain.
NOBODY'S PERFECT!
Ch.
We are shy and submissive as long as we can afford *lol*.
Hi, Bruce:... If I'm falling from a cliff, it's a little late to complain about it, and screaming won't slow the fall.
We are shy and submissive as long as we can afford *lol*. Hope this helps ;-)
Why do you think that the Yang supremacy isn`t natural? Isn`t it true that first is the idea, the spirit, the energy and THEN the matter? Before you ACT you had to THINK, you have the IDEA of acting before you do. God is also Yang and it is good if the weak follows the strong because to where should it come if NOT?
su·preme (s-prm)
adj.
1. Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant.
2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
3. Ultimate; final: the supreme sacrifice.
Yin is not only less in chinese language connotations it is also less in Yin/Yang theory because one of both has to be less. If both would be the same any movement would be impossible. If something is totally balanced, it stops moving, developing... there can only be a moment (a temporary state)of silence and totally balance, it has to move again. If live shall go on, some movement is needed and this movement is only possible if somewhere is less and somewhere more, there need to be difference for the process of to get in balance again, called live.
So in the hierarchy of forces the Yang is "above" Yin, because a decline is needed for some movement. But this doesn`t mean that men are "better" than wymen or such. It just means to follow the creative principle, to let it "lead". There are woman who are much more Yang than each man *lol*.
Or men which are much more Yin than each woman. So we`re talking just about principles. Yang is the first because there the movement/impuls starts (idea, thought,spirit), because of the character/nature of this principle, Yin is the shape it forms/molding (matter, earth) what comes from Yang, also because of the nature of this principle. So Yin follows Yang and that is the reason for this "hierarchy". But that is a completly natural hierarchy and so there is no use to complain about it or to not accept it *lol*. As I said: We`re only talking about principles.
The specific meanings of the four attributes became the subject of speculation at an early date. The Chinese word here rendered by “sublime” means literally “head,” “origin,” “great.” This is why Confucius says in explaining it: “Great indeed is the generating power of the Creative; all beings owe their beginning to it. This power permeates all heaven.” W/B hex1
The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas. This is indicated in the word success, and the process is represented by an image from nature: “The clouds pass and the rain does its work, and all individual beings flow into their forms.” W/B hex1
Hi, Bruce:Yin gives birth to the Creative's son, the Prince. In an empty bowl was the seed (potential) planted. She brings it into this world. Such a sacred Mystery is beyond names, though many have been given to her.
Hi, Tom:The idea of yang supremacy is based on the illusion of the turning heavens. Actually, it is the turning earth that creates this illusion. Poor yang, however, needs all the support he can get.
9. Hsiao Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Small
This hexagram means the force of the small--the power of the shadowy--that restrains, tames, impedes. A weak line in the fourth place, that of the minister, holds the five strong lines in check.
W/B
牝常以靜勝牡
pin4 chang2 yi3 jing4 sheng4 mu3
FEMALES ALWAIS WITH CALM DEFEAT MALES
[my literal translation, Ch.]
«In her apparent passivity and inferiority, the female is superior to the male (for it is she who gives birth).» [Wieger's translation]
Dao De Jing: Chapter 61.
Hi, Bruce:
What sort of things are you saying! You don't believe in it, isn't it?
You know that women, all the females, are not pots with plants.
I was said that males don't put SEEDS at all. they only put sperm and if sperm don't reach a receptive ovule there is no seed. I never saw it with my own eyes, but I believe it because was my father that told me it, some years ago.
There is nothing CREATIVE but the INTERACTION of YIN and YANG.
That interaction, as the interaction between HEAVEN and EARTH is said 交 jiao1, wich, of course, means SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.
And see you that the word 陰yin1 used for meaning the FEMALE PRINCIPLE, the FEMALE VITAL ENERGY, the SPIRIT OF EARTH, the MOON, is the same word used for meaning the GENITALS OF MAN OR WOMAN [男陰 女陰].
Of course that the planting of seeds is a too old metaphor scattered by the world, but has nothing to do with NATURE, only with CULTURE.
JIAO is also used for MAKING FRIENDS or for LISTENING MUSIC TOGETHER, but that's another story.
All the best,
Charly
This appears perfectly consistent with what forty two wrote.
Personally, I find it refreshing to see such posts written by women who aren't personally threatened and insecure by this first of fundamental principles of the IC. She's made it very clear that these principles are not necessarily literal depictions of gender. There's nothing to be threatened by.
Hi, Ivonne:...
I just talked about what is written in the second book of the I Ching itself, called The material. If one wishes to understand the I Ching right he needs to read the basic text, the 1st book, the material, it`s the second book and the commentairies, this is the third book. ... If one read the whole I Ching he will understand my words...
Thanks, you got me I`m busy at the moment so I need to make it very short now.
I just talked about what is written in the second book of the I Ching itself, called The material. If one wishes to understand the I Ching right he needs to read the basic text, the 1st book, the material, it`s the second book and the commentairies, this is the third book. All 3 books are the I Ching and if one wishes to understand the whole I Ching he has to read the whole I Ching. If one read the whole I Ching he will understand my words. So Meng I guess you have read all, have you?
Hi, Ivonne:
Being short, I undestand your words, only that I don't agree with it.
You have all the right to think so.
Maybe you need to read something out of Wilhelm, whose translation is, of course, one of the more exciting readings on the I Chig, but it is not the I Ching itself.
It's a very good version of the traditional point of view, there are other points of view.
I hold that the core of the I Ching, the so called Zhou Yi, like the philosophical thinking of its time, were not so negative with YIN and WOMEN as were the later evolutions and commentaries of the imperial times.
Wilhelm knew it and I have the feeling that he allowed himself some slips in order to let hidden keys for another points of view that maybe he believed not for everyone.
The Changes is long and the life is short, I don't advice to read all the Changes. If you add the commentaries, it's impossible.
And women, like the Dao don't need to learn for being effective, but that's another story.
Best wishes,
Charly
If both, man and woman are balanced in Yin/Yang we would have this wonderful case of to give and take
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).