Reading the Hexagram on its own, without the text

[charly]

Hi Charly,
I tried to figure out what you mean with plum blossom method. ...

I was said not to begin with Lilian Too book, but I've no opinion on it. I believe that it's preferable to begin with Jou Tsun Hwa wich is available in the web and very practice-oriented. After it more specialized are Liu Da Jun and Sherrill.

Here can see a commentary by Harmen Mesker, he also advices Liu Da Jun

See here about Da Liu and Lilian Too

... So we can start again a nice discussion about: What is weak and what is strong? *lol*.

I would see it as a strong Character which turns out soft. Strong principles, soft acting.

To all: I would like to say that I don`t see the flexible, the weak as the weak we use it in western language. If we use the word weak in western language we always mean something not good. I eastern language it is just the opposite of Yang. One of the two basic forces and there is never meant "something not good". ...

I didn't say that I prefer the FLEXIBLE over the STRONG, altough it's maybe true, but that I prefer to transalate FLEXIBLE the character 柔 rou2, a compound of lance over a tree.

The character for lance, spear is the protograf of another character (mao2) wich means REEDS, RUSHES, GRASS, THATCH.

Of course, character rou2 can be translated as WEAK or even worse as YIELDEING or SUBMISSIVE, all compliant with the ideology of male superiority. But rou2 also means «soft and tender / amiable / pliant / gentle / supple / the new grass budding in spring» [Richard Sears].

Even more, there is a hidden stream of thinking, early attested by the Dao De Jing, that believes that women always defeat men, that there is a strong energy below female tenderness and that male strenght is scarce and requires lernt wisdom and adquired skills for self control.

Of course, male and female energies are equals in rights in the YIN / YANG THEORY, but in chinese language connotations yin is less than yang. I believe that we must made efforts to avoid mistakes and prejudices.

A question: I asked myself if there is a english translation of the I Ching and I don`t mean a english translation of the Richard Wilhelm translation but one direct translation from the original I Ching, do you have a clue?

There are many, begining with the old translations by Legge (in Sacred Texts) and by Mcclatchie (hard to find, condemned by the church).

From people related wit this forum there are:

LiSe (Lotty Heyboer), I advice to begin with her site whose first name was «The Book of the Moon», Bradford (many pdf available in his site), Gia Fu Feng (with Frank Kegan in his site Stars and Dices), Tuk Chang (also have a site with his entire book), Freeman Crouch (available the wole book in Google Books), Margaret Pearson, Hilary... did I forget any?

There are many other resources in the web that I can tell you later. After reading LiSe, or maybe at the same time, I advice you a not well known translator, parcially availabe in Google Books: KOH KOK KIANG, The Illustrated Guide of I Ching, a comic-like book of changes.

all the best,


Charly
P.D.:
The author adviced was DA LIU and not Liu Da Jun, it was a slip.
Ch.

 

[charly]

See here for Jou Tsung Hwa and Sherrill resources:

Jou Tsung Hwa / Sherrill / Plum Blossom

Whit Jou can save as images the pages you're interested or, with patience, all the pages.

Ch.

 

[jilt]

mmm, I'm not so sure of this, and as an artist yourself, I'm a little surprised at your use of the words language and meaning. Can you say about each of your art pieces, this is a language which has meaning? I sure can't, which is why I define what I play as "no music". You, as a listener may interpret what it says to you, but that's your interpretation, the meaning you have given to what I have played. Music, dance, art of all kinds stirs the hearts and minds of mankind, usually as locally interpreted. But when I play, and it is a language, I'm with you there, but the language says, in what we typically call language, what it says to the listener, and listeners hear things differently.

So, it may be a statement, or it may have no intended language or meaning at all to the one who creates it, it may just be no-music to them.

Also, I usually think in dream-like moving pictures, conversations and scenarios, not so much in words, other than a script for the actors to follow.

But I like your entire post, even if it doesn't match my way of thinking.

Perhaps what me and then you are saying is a typical exemple of different kinds of judgements, definitions about language.
When we use e.g. the word heaven all the readers here will have a more or less different image in their souls of heaven. At the same time all the readers here in this thread, who have read this and realize that their concept of heaven differs from the other's concept of heaven fairly agree that there might be differences . At the other hand, we might start to agree about a concept of heaven when we start to talk about it, or, realize how we disagree.
Anyway, when I'm talking about language i am talking about a whole possible spectrum of exchange. Language occurs in the process of Tuning of behavior. Electrons and positrons have behaviour and tune their behaviour un such way that they find some relatively stable equilibrium as elements, molecules, crystal-matrix. Heath, cold, winds, streams become part of that tuning.
Cells communicate by chemistry (which is an emergent phenomena coming from the complex play of positrons and electrons), tune their behaviour to find "food" and do something with excretions (that might play a role in communicating once more). When the tuning goes like an agreable pattern there will be mingling (eating, mating, becoming one, celldivision etc).
You might define us humans as an organization of cooperating cells. The human is emerging from that cooperation. In that cooperation tuning, communication, language is essential. Spoken and written language is only the tip of the metaphorical iceberg of bodylanguage and all other modes of tuning behaviour. Dreams, music, tunes, tones, scents, touching, visuals, are all part of that ever ongoing tuning, as are we. And perhaps we see all that tuning of behaviour under the water (you know, from that metaphorical iceberg) reflected in our dreams. And our dreams resonate of course with our "conscious" behaviour. And our human words can divide and unite.

within this vision trigrams and hexgrams are basic patterns to tune behaviour.
Life is poetry, tuning of behaviour is the finding of resonating patterns, the rhyming of rhytmns.

well, ehhh, good vibrations for you all,
and Meng, did you put some of your no-music on the web?

 

[meng]

Yes, only I'd call it interpretation of language rather than judgments and definitions, and while there may appear to be little difference, I think the difference is significant. Interpretation is purely personal, while judgments and definitions tend to be collectively categorized, even when the personal interpretations may vary: heaven is heaven to everyone who has even a basic understanding of the IC structure. Heaven, it is agreed unanimously, is the first hexagram; secondly, it is half of the big pie or picture. And it's generally agreed that it is the male principle in nature and philosophy.

All those differences that also exist on a more personal level, is interpretation.

Language can be either. I think we probably agree on that. laadeedee da dobop do-Wha...Uh!

No no-music online. My interest in recording ended with the analog age, when 4" tape was rolling reel-to-reel, and an entire narrow room was dedicated to hang a heavy steel plate for the studio reverb. It goes along with my compulsive obsession to delete what I do or just don't save it in the first place. My hard drive died a couple weekends ago, and motherboard was iffy. Everything selectively saved is lost, no back-up, and I haven't been the least concerned, because they were only files, bits of data. That's a no-music disposition, and so doing the home studio thing never motivated me once into the digital age. First, music loses so much once it's broken down and reconstructed bits of data, than when it all happens real time, and the connection goes from heart to wind and fingers, and onto tape moving along with it. It feels real, alive, dimensional. Sgt Peppers in digital lets you hear things never heard of vinyl, but the heart beat feeling is gone from it.

That said, I have interest in sound, so what I record is to test a speaker, a tube, a pedal, or a guitar or amp, or strings. Experimental sound bites. So I doodle fart around to create a sample to hear, more focused and objectively. Soundclick further compresses the the data, also limiting size of a file, so if you upload a full band song, you have to compress the **** out of it to get down to 10 meg; end result is nothing to be proud of, chuckle. If I wish to share no-music, there are a few friends who occasionally enjoy listening as they go about doing other things. It's real time, in the moment, there's no title, no intended meaning, no purpose, no "reason". Just sound. Someone may hear something as being angry, another was just rockin' it. Another hears light traveling faster than sound. All highly subject to personal interpretation. It's quite a wonderful thing to each be given our own personal creation and way.

 

[jilt]

Yes, only I'd call it interpretation of language rather than judgments and definitions, and while there may appear to be little difference, I think the difference is significant. Interpretation is purely personal, while judgments and definitions tend to be collectively categorized, even when the personal interpretations may vary: heaven is heaven to everyone who has even a basic understanding of the IC structure. Heaven, it is agreed unanimously, is the first hexagram; secondly, it is half of the big pie or picture. And it's generally agreed that it is the male principle in nature and philosophy.

All those differences that also exist on a more personal level, is interpretation.

Language can be either. I think we probably agree on that. laadeedee da dobop do-Wha...Uh!

hey, must be early morning for you,

yess,

 

[meng]

doodlefarts

 

[jilt]

had to go for some shopping and on my way on the bycicle i realized that i said that in finding and defining meaning there is some oscillation between tuning of behaviour (language in it's broadest sense) and "language as a system of arbitrary conventions". The first one is very 48-6ish, the latter very much 6-5ish. But that's all interpretation of course.
I mean that we're speaking about the same thing. Interpretation goes with tuning of behaviour, and judgement and definition with agreement, a system of arbitrary conventions. Then judgement and definition are interpretations that are agreed upon.


Before you know someone makes words like fortyfied sexiest and sex5fish
I

 

[forty two]

I was said not to begin with Lilian Too book, but I've no opinion on it. I believe that it's preferable to begin with Jou Tsun Hwa wich is available in the web and very practice-oriented. After it more specialized are Liu Da Jun and Sherrill.

Here can see a commentary by Harmen Mesker, he also advices Liu Da Jun

From people related wit this forum there are:

LiSe (Lotty Heyboer), I advice to begin with her site whose first name was «The Book of the Moon», Bradford (many pdf available in his site), Gia Fu Feng (with Frank Kegan in his site Stars and Dices), Tuk Chang (also have a site with his entire book), Freeman Crouch (available the wole book in Google Books), Margaret Pearson, Hilary... did I forget any?

There are many other resources in the web that I can tell you later. After reading LiSe, or maybe at the same time, I advice you a not well known translator, parcially availabe in Google Books: KOH KOK KIANG, The Illustrated Guide of I Ching, a comic-like book of changes.

First: Many thanks for this huge amount of tipps, wow!!! *Happy* Don`t know exactly where to start, but probably at Lise`s site. Apart from that: I have to read the english (Richard Wilhem) version, because this is completely new for me. Of course, because there never was a need to read an english I Ching but now..... that I want to talk to you all I HAVE to study.

I didn't say that I prefer the FLEXIBLE over the STRONG, altough it's maybe true, but that I prefer to transalate FLEXIBLE the character 柔 rou2, a compound of lance over a tree.

The character for lance, spear is the protograf of another character (mao2) wich means REEDS, RUSHES, GRASS, THATCH.

Of course, character rou2 can be translated as WEAK or even worse as YIELDEING or SUBMISSIVE, all compliant with the ideology of male superiority. But rou2 also means «soft and tender / amiable / pliant / gentle / supple / the new grass budding in spring» [Richard Sears].

I don`t understand a word, because I don`t know what you are talking about What is rou2? mao2? Do you mean 2. K`un - The Receptive??? I also don`t know Richard Sears, so there is some explanation needed as you see

Even more, there is a hidden stream of thinking, early attested by the Dao De Jing, that believes that women always defeat men, that there is a strong energy below female tenderness and that male strenght is scarce and requires lernt wisdom and adquired skills for self control.

Of course, male and female energies are equals in rights in the YIN / YANG THEORY, but in chinese language connotations yin is less than yang. I believe that we must made efforts to avoid mistakes and prejudices.

Yin is not only less in chinese language connotations it is also less in Yin/Yang theory because one of both has to be less. If both would be the same any movement would be impossible. If something is totally balanced, it stops moving, developing... there can only be a moment (a temporary state)of silence and totally balance, it has to move again. If live shall go on, some movement is needed and this movement is only possible if somewhere is less and somewhere more, there need to be difference for the process of to get in balance again, called live.

So in the hierarchy of forces the Yang is "above" Yin, because a decline is needed for some movement. But this doesn`t mean that men are "better" than wymen or such. It just means to follow the creative principle, to let it "lead". There are woman who are much more Yang than each man *lol*.

Or men which are much more Yin than each woman. So we`re talking just about principles. Yang is the first because there the movement/impuls starts (idea, thought,spirit), because of the character/nature of this principle, Yin is the shape it forms/molding (matter, earth) what comes from Yang, also because of the nature of this principle. So Yin follows Yang and that is the reason for this "hierarchy". But that is a completly natural hierarchy and so there is no use to complain about it or to not accept it *lol*. As I said: We`re only talking about principles.

About "Battle" between the sexes: *lol* Charly I guess this really is a big question for you, isn`t it? I guess the Yin has got good chances if it keep itself to it`s nature

Hexagramm 9 line 6:
Nine at the top means:
The rain comes, there is rest.
This is due to the lasting effect of character.
Perseverance brings the woman into danger.
The moon is nearly full.
If the superior man persists,
Misfortune comes.

Success is at hand. The wind has driven up the rain. A fixed standpoint has been reached. This has come about through the cumulation of small effects produced by reverence for a superior character.
But a success thus secured bit by bit calls for great caution. It would be a dangerous illusion for anyone to think he could presume upon it. The female principle, the weak element that has won the victory, should never persist in vaunting it—that would lead to danger. The dark power in the moon is strongest when the moon is almost full. When it is full and directly opposite the sun, its waning is inevitable. Under such circumstances one must be content with what has been achieved. To advance any further, before the appropriate time has come, would lead to misfortune.
Quote end

So I tell you our (female) "tricks", hope you appreciate it

With best wishes, Yvonne

 

[charly]

I apologize:

The author was Da Liu, not Liu Da Jun.
My mistake!


Charly

 

[dharmamom]

Hi, forty two!
For the Plum Blossom method, two books I find very helpful are Da Liu's "I Ching numerology" (as recommended by Charly) and Dr Wang Yang's "The authentic I Ching."

 

[forty two]

@Charly and Dharmamon: Thanks I note it down and it is good to know there is a next level when I feel ready for it.

Hey Dharmamom: Grützi My Grandmother was swiss. So actually I know the Bodensee and your fantastic chocolate. Enjoy it, I`m a bit envious, because you live in a great country with great chocolate, especially great chocolate

 

[charly]

... Don`t know exactly where to start, but probably at Lise`s site.

Hi, Ivonne:

Truts me: begin with LiSe. You also will love it.

I don`t understand a word...

Don't worry. Sometimes I don't understand myself. I've said why to render WEAK, SUBMISSIVE or YIELDING a character that also means SOFT, GENTLE, TENDER ...?
of course that the FLESH IS WEAK and I prefer TENDER MEAT.

Yin is not only less in chinese language connotations it is also less in Yin/Yang theory because one of both has to be less. ...

So in the hierarchy of forces the Yang is "above" Yin... So Yin follows Yang and that is the reason for this "hierarchy". But that is a completly natural hierarchy ...

Of course that I don't agree, but I know that many people think so. Only that I believe tha's not natural at all and that chinese thinking was not always driven by the idea of yang supremacy. It was built during the process that led to empire organization, being dominant during HAN dynasty.

In Zhou times YIN/YANG ideas weren't yet full developed and were not so negative with WOMEN.

About "Battle" between the sexes: *lol* Charly I guess this really is a big question for you, isn`t it? I guess the Yin has got good chances if it keep itself to it`s nature

I don't understand, but meanwhile be BATTLES OF LOVE not serious.

Hexagramm 9 line 6:
Nine at the top means:
The rain comes, there is rest.
This is due to the lasting effect of character.
Perseverance brings the woman into danger.
The moon is nearly full.
If the superior man ...

So I tell you our (female) "tricks", hope you appreciate it...

You know that Wilhelm didn't speak of SUPERIOR MEN and maybe you already suspect that he was teaching hiddenly some MALE tricks. Say, he was giving advice on chinese traditional bedchamber arts.

With best wishes, Yvonne

All the best,


Charly
________________________

P.D.:
I was said that the ideal chinese girl was always shy and submissive.
Every time I believd to find a shy and submissive girl, experience ended teaching me that I was wrong! Maybe it was preferable so, I don't complain.

I have the feeling that Confucius thinked the same, but he did complain.
NOBODY'S PERFECT!

Ch.

 

[forty two]

Don't worry. Sometimes I don't understand myself.

Then we have something in common.

I've said why to render WEAK, SUBMISSIVE or YIELDING a character that also means SOFT, GENTLE, TENDER ...?
of course that the FLESH IS WEAK and I prefer TENDER MEAT.

I prefer it well done

Of course that I don't agree, but I know that many people think so. Only that I believe tha's not natural at all and that chinese thinking was not always driven by the idea of yang supremacy. It was built during the process that led to empire organization, being dominant during HAN dynasty.

In Zhou times YIN/YANG ideas weren't yet full developed and were not so negative with WOMEN.

I don`t know much about chinese history (unfortunatly) but in case of the I Ching Georg Zimmermann for example explained hexagram 37 completely new (BASED on chinese hystory because he is an expert and he also speaks chinese) as the women is the boss into the house, also for chinese men The main lines here are 2 and 4. In other words: The women`s job is inside the man`s job outside. I can`t find anything negative on it.

The problems only starts if one starts to valuate it. If you look at it as the expression of two forces or principles they just act according to their nature there is no problem at all I think.

Why do you think that the Yang supremacy isn`t natural? Isn`t it true that first is the idea, the spirit, the energy and THEN the matter? Before you ACT you had to THINK, you have the IDEA of acting before you do. God is also Yang and it is good if the weak follows the strong because to where should it come if NOT?

You see I don`t valuate it as better or worse but as something that just is like it is, I easily can accept it.

I don't understand, but meanwhile be BATTLES OF LOVE not serious.

Fine, me too It`s fun and a joyful battle.

You know that Wilhelm didn't speak of SUPERIOR MEN and maybe you already suspect that he was teaching hiddenly some MALE tricks. Say, he was giving advice on chinese traditional bedchamber arts.

I will keep it in mind.

P.D.:
I was said that the ideal chinese girl was always shy and submissive.
Every time I believd to find a shy and submissive girl, experience ended teaching me that I was wrong! Maybe it was preferable so, I don't complain.

We are shy and submissive as long as we can afford *lol*. Hope this helps ;-)

I have the feeling that Confucius thinked the same, but he did complain.
NOBODY'S PERFECT!

Ch.

:bows:

Best wishes Yvonne

 

[meng]

We are shy and submissive as long as we can afford *lol*.

Poignant and beautifully said.

"Times change, and with them their demands." ~ W/B 49

"To rule truly is to serve." ~ W/B 42

We can and must submit when the time and circumstances call for it. If I'm falling from a cliff, it's a little late to complain about it, and screaming won't slow the fall.

 

[charly]

... If I'm falling from a cliff, it's a little late to complain about it, and screaming won't slow the fall.

Hi, Bruce:

Nobody's perfect.

Maybe it serves for something, maybe it's unavoidable to scream or to talk with oneself.

Altan's ADA falling from the cliff:

«Oh mon dieu ! Alors, à quoi ça m'a servi d'aller à l'école ?»
Oh my God! So, what has served me to go to school?"
Source: http://www.pastis.org/jade/cgi-bin/...rg/jade/bedetheque/ADA/ada_dans_la_jungle.htm
​

Of course, she survived.

Would She have survived if she had not made ​​that silly comment? Who knows!

Best regards,


Charly

 

[precision grace]

We are shy and submissive as long as we can afford *lol*. Hope this helps ;-)

of course, some of us, can only ever pretend submission

 

[Trojina]

Why do you think that the Yang supremacy isn`t natural? Isn`t it true that first is the idea, the spirit, the energy and THEN the matter? Before you ACT you had to THINK, you have the IDEA of acting before you do. God is also Yang and it is good if the weak follows the strong because to where should it come if NOT?

I wonder how you can look at the familar yin/yang symbol, you know the circle where each side has within the seed of the other and still entertain the idea Yang has supremacy ? Doesn't that miss the whole point, the very basis of the Yi ?

Edited to add I'm seeing in particular here the word supremacy which has the following meaning from online dictionary

su·preme (s-prm)
adj.
1. Greatest in power, authority, or rank; paramount or dominant.
2. Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
3. Ultimate; final: the supreme sacrifice.

Now I don't think Yang can be said to be more important than Yin or better.or vice versa..and I presume you don't (?).so I just wondered at the use of that word

 

[meng]

Yin is not only less in chinese language connotations it is also less in Yin/Yang theory because one of both has to be less. If both would be the same any movement would be impossible. If something is totally balanced, it stops moving, developing... there can only be a moment (a temporary state)of silence and totally balance, it has to move again. If live shall go on, some movement is needed and this movement is only possible if somewhere is less and somewhere more, there need to be difference for the process of to get in balance again, called live.

So in the hierarchy of forces the Yang is "above" Yin, because a decline is needed for some movement. But this doesn`t mean that men are "better" than wymen or such. It just means to follow the creative principle, to let it "lead". There are woman who are much more Yang than each man *lol*.

Or men which are much more Yin than each woman. So we`re talking just about principles. Yang is the first because there the movement/impuls starts (idea, thought,spirit), because of the character/nature of this principle, Yin is the shape it forms/molding (matter, earth) what comes from Yang, also because of the nature of this principle. So Yin follows Yang and that is the reason for this "hierarchy". But that is a completly natural hierarchy and so there is no use to complain about it or to not accept it *lol*. As I said: We`re only talking about principles.

The specific meanings of the four attributes became the subject of speculation at an early date. The Chinese word here rendered by “sublime” means literally “head,” “origin,” “great.” This is why Confucius says in explaining it: “Great indeed is the generating power of the Creative; all beings owe their beginning to it. This power permeates all heaven.” W/B hex1

The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas. This is indicated in the word success, and the process is represented by an image from nature: “The clouds pass and the rain does its work, and all individual beings flow into their forms.” W/B hex1

This appears perfectly consistent with what forty two wrote.

Personally, I find it refreshing to see such posts written by women who aren't personally threatened and insecure by this first of fundamental principles of the IC. She's made it very clear that these principles are not necessarily literal depictions of gender. There's nothing to be threatened by.

 

[meng]

This is, in part, why the Dao is depicted, personally to me, as female. Because, though 1- The Creative - is THE force, it requires space in order to become. Space is nothing. The nothing which can not be named. And The Nothing does not stop being nothing because of past creations. It remains nothing, so that something can have space to fill, and creation continues tirelessly.

Not long ago I had a discussion with a friend (female) about if Yin can be considered a force. I said, no, for just the reasons sighted. Yin gives birth to the Creative's son, the Prince. In an empty bowl was the seed (potential) planted. She brings it into this world. Such a sacred Mystery is beyond names, though many have been given to her.

 

[pocossin]

The idea of yang supremacy is based on the illusion of the turning heavens. Actually, it is the turning earth that creates this illusion. Poor yang, however, needs all the support he can get.

 

[hmesker]

I mainly work with the trigrams and lines of the hexagrams, I hardly look at the text. Especially when I do consultations for others the trigrams often describe the most important elements of the situations pretty well.

During the lecture I gave last Thursday in Brugge, Belgium, there was a lady who asked with to do about her 'leg problem'. She did not specify the nature of this problem, but the Yi replied with hexagram 37, which consists of Wind over Fire. She had the 1st, 5th and 6th line moving. I told her that Fire referred to an inflammation, and that Wind prevented the healing - progress would be very slow, and the first line suggested that she should seek another form of treatment. The moving top lines urged her not to wait too long as the situation had reached his climax. Waiting would result in irreversible damage. The lady told me that she had an open wound which she tried to heal with alternative methods but for several weeks there wasn't any change. She was hesitant to use Western medicines, but I urged her to go to the doctor asap.

A mother asked why she couldn't get along well with her son. She received hexagram 10, Heaven over Lake. I often see the lower trigram as a representation of the questioner, and the upper trigram as the other party (if there is one), or the outside world etc. I told her that the lower trigram could indicate a desire to keep the relation as enjoyable as possible, but that this was difficult because the son put himself in the position of the father (the upper trigram), making the mother-son relationship imbalanced. This was acknowledged by the lady, who said that her husband, the father of her son, had passed away some time ago.

The father figure was also apparent in the answer for another woman, who asked how she could move on in the mourning process she had been struggling with the last three years. She didn't say which person the mourning was about, but she received a hexagram with Heaven as lower trigram (I can't recall the upper trigram). I told her that the hexagram indicated that she was very much occupied by the relationship with her father, and she confirmed that it was her father who had died three years ago.

The trigrams often give the connection with the situation, which can be the starting point for the change that most people desire when they use the Yi.

 

[charly]

Yin gives birth to the Creative's son, the Prince. In an empty bowl was the seed (potential) planted. She brings it into this world. Such a sacred Mystery is beyond names, though many have been given to her.

Hi, Bruce:

What sort of things are you saying! You don't believe in it, isn't it?

You know that women, all the females, are not pots with plants.

I was said that males don't put SEEDS at all. they only put sperm and if sperm don't reach a receptive ovule there is no seed. I never saw it with my own eyes, but I believe it because was my father that told me it, some years ago.

There is nothing CREATIVE but the INTERACTION of YIN and YANG.

That interaction, as the interaction between HEAVEN and EARTH is said 交 jiao1, wich, of course, means SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

And see you that the word 陰yin1 used for meaning the FEMALE PRINCIPLE, the FEMALE VITAL ENERGY, the SPIRIT OF EARTH, the MOON, is the same word used for meaning the GENITALS OF MAN OR WOMAN [男陰 女陰].

Of course that the planting of seeds is a too old metaphor scattered by the world, but has nothing to do with NATURE, only with CULTURE.

JIAO is also used for MAKING FRIENDS or for LISTENING MUSIC TOGETHER, but that's another story.


All the best,


Charly

 

[charly]

The idea of yang supremacy is based on the illusion of the turning heavens. Actually, it is the turning earth that creates this illusion. Poor yang, however, needs all the support he can get.

Hi, Tom:

We are the NEEDY. We need some CONSOLATION. (1)

Quoting Wilhem / Baynes:

9. Hsiao Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Small

This hexagram means the force of the small--the power of the shadowy--that restrains, tames, impedes. A weak line in the fourth place, that of the minister, holds the five strong lines in check.

W/B

Only ONE line that's restraining, taming and impeding another FIVE, is called WEAK !!!

牝常以靜勝牡
pin4 chang2 yi3 jing4 sheng4 mu3

FEMALES ALWAIS WITH CALM DEFEAT MALES
[my literal translation, Ch.]
​

«In her apparent passivity and inferiority, the female is superior to the male (for it is she who gives birth).» [Wieger's translation]

Dao De Jing: Chapter 61.

Best wishes,

Charly
_____________________
(1) «... por eso, si sobreviene un desconsuelo, un apagón o una noche sin luna...»
Ch.

 

[meng]

Hi, Bruce:

What sort of things are you saying! You don't believe in it, isn't it?

You know that women, all the females, are not pots with plants.

I was said that males don't put SEEDS at all. they only put sperm and if sperm don't reach a receptive ovule there is no seed. I never saw it with my own eyes, but I believe it because was my father that told me it, some years ago.

There is nothing CREATIVE but the INTERACTION of YIN and YANG.

That interaction, as the interaction between HEAVEN and EARTH is said 交 jiao1, wich, of course, means SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.

And see you that the word 陰yin1 used for meaning the FEMALE PRINCIPLE, the FEMALE VITAL ENERGY, the SPIRIT OF EARTH, the MOON, is the same word used for meaning the GENITALS OF MAN OR WOMAN [男陰 女陰].

Of course that the planting of seeds is a too old metaphor scattered by the world, but has nothing to do with NATURE, only with CULTURE.

JIAO is also used for MAKING FRIENDS or for LISTENING MUSIC TOGETHER, but that's another story.


All the best,


Charly

Believe, mmm, I believe very few things. Conceive, yes; I conceive truth in what I said, or why would I have bothered to say it? If my symbols didn't connect with you, then they don't connect. It is fundamental to me, the first son of Heaven being Zhen/thunder. "In the beginning was the Word." But perhaps that symbolic language and connection is obscured due to a prejudice.

I understand the creative interaction aspect of both, of course. I don't think children are delivered by a stork. But in addressing what forty two had said, I wasn't talking about chemical reactions between sexes but about a particular hierarchy, the one she spoke of. I found her comments to be crisp and relevant, and in her own words voiced what Wilhelm himself so perfectly expressed regarding these attributes of hex1.

My more everyday reference is the electrical wall socket, where there's a "hot wire" (yang), which carries the actual electrical juice, and then there's the ground wire. Grounding is Yin. I'm a Gemini (air), I married a Taurus (earth). We both understood that power requires grounding. But I'm saying here, even without grounding, the potential power is tirelessly available. Grounding of course is earth, a feminine principle. Without it, the Creative could not flow in a directed manner. Nothing useful about a wild dragon.

 

[forty two]

This appears perfectly consistent with what forty two wrote.

Personally, I find it refreshing to see such posts written by women who aren't personally threatened and insecure by this first of fundamental principles of the IC. She's made it very clear that these principles are not necessarily literal depictions of gender. There's nothing to be threatened by.

Thanks, you got me I`m busy at the moment so I need to make it very short now.
I just talked about what is written in the second book of the I Ching itself, called The material. If one wishes to understand the I Ching right he needs to read the basic text, the 1st book, the material, it`s the second book and the commentairies, this is the third book. All 3 books are the I Ching and if one wishes to understand the whole I Ching he has to read the whole I Ching. If one read the whole I Ching he will understand my words. So Meng I guess you have read all, have you?

@precision grace: Lol

 

[charly]

...
I just talked about what is written in the second book of the I Ching itself, called The material. If one wishes to understand the I Ching right he needs to read the basic text, the 1st book, the material, it`s the second book and the commentairies, this is the third book. ... If one read the whole I Ching he will understand my words...

Hi, Ivonne:

Being short, I undestand your words, only that I don't agree with it.

You have all the right to think so. Maybe you need to read something out of Wilhelm, whose translation is, of course, one of the more exciting readings on the I Chig, but it is not the I Ching itself.

It's a very good version of the traditional point of view, there are other points of view.

I hold that the core of the I Ching, the so called Zhou Yi, like the philosophical thinking of its time, were not so negative with YIN and WOMEN as were the later evolutions and commentaries of the imperial times.

Wilhelm knew it and I have the feeling that he allowed himself some slips in order to let hidden keys for another points of view that maybe he believed not for everyone.

The Changes is long and the life is short, I don't advice to read all the Changes. If you add the commentaries, it's impossible.

And women, like the Dao don't need to learn for being effective, but that's another story.

Best wishes,


Charly

Source: http://history.cultural-china.com/en/54H2105H5457.html

 

[meng]

Thanks, you got me I`m busy at the moment so I need to make it very short now.
I just talked about what is written in the second book of the I Ching itself, called The material. If one wishes to understand the I Ching right he needs to read the basic text, the 1st book, the material, it`s the second book and the commentairies, this is the third book. All 3 books are the I Ching and if one wishes to understand the whole I Ching he has to read the whole I Ching. If one read the whole I Ching he will understand my words. So Meng I guess you have read all, have you?

From '66 or so to '80, I lived in the W/B daily. I'm not sure if that was the first or second edition. I currently have the third but candidly don't use it much. Referencing online is faster. My first W/B resembled a Pentecostal's tattered Bible, with nearly every sentence underlined, highlighted and my own notes scribbled throughout. For the following 20 I referred to it mentally, constantly finding parallels with Biblical texts; a topic which I've found to be less than popular or appreciated when mentioned on this forum. But that's ok; my old Bible friends freaked when I'd mention the IC too.

I began practicing after I left my more literal Christian beliefs and took up once again with W/B, which is sort of like the King James of the I Ching world. That reading was 50, unchanging. It is the easiest for me to have memorized than other versions I've used, partly because my early Yi years were all about W/B. It a go-to.

It wasn't until I joined this forum, at around 2001, that I became aware of an extended Yijing universe, including some which get closer to the "real (historical) IC". I'm not even sure there is a real Yijing. I listen to scholars when they speak of scholarly things, but they can have blind spots just like anyone else. In the end, I rely on my understanding, mostly gained through seeing and contemplating the trigrams, as observed in the natural world. Seeing works in both directions.

Expect to be challenged for considering the Wilhelm/Baynes "the I Ching".

It's still what I recall, refer to and use most, but as mentally edited by me over time. So maybe none are the real one, maybe they all are. Makes no difference to me. I ask, it knows and it answers.

I do benefit greatly by other translations and commentaries of a few authors and members here. Some really heads up people on the subject. Not saying better than Wilhelm, but they might, chuckle.

Have you seen LiSe's world yet?

 

[meng]

Source: http://history.cultural-china.com/en/54H2105H5457.html

They all look happily stoned.

 

[forty two]

Hi, Ivonne:

Being short, I undestand your words, only that I don't agree with it.

No problem

You have all the right to think so.

Thanks, you too

Maybe you need to read something out of Wilhelm, whose translation is, of course, one of the more exciting readings on the I Chig, but it is not the I Ching itself.

It's a very good version of the traditional point of view, there are other points of view.

I hold that the core of the I Ching, the so called Zhou Yi, like the philosophical thinking of its time, were not so negative with YIN and WOMEN as were the later evolutions and commentaries of the imperial times.

Wilhelm knew it and I have the feeling that he allowed himself some slips in order to let hidden keys for another points of view that maybe he believed not for everyone.

The Changes is long and the life is short, I don't advice to read all the Changes. If you add the commentaries, it's impossible.

And women, like the Dao don't need to learn for being effective, but that's another story.

Best wishes,


Charly

Yes I actually only know the Richard Wilhelm version so it might can be that different translators seeing things different. But forget this all because it is my opinion too so we don`t need books for to talk about the theme

I hear always negative with yin and women... have I said something like that???? I have not. I said that we are just talking about principles and these principles can be found in wymen or in men. They are not bounded to a certain kind of sex.

So, when I say that I think the yin shall follow the yang, for example in a relationship then I mean:
If the Yang is represented into the man and the Yin into the woman, the woman should follow.
If the Yang is represented into the woman and the Yin into the man, the man should follow.

So there is no reason for not to accept it, or for to discuss what is "better" man or woman. What is the problem?

Concerning the natural order of a Yang primary.....please just look around. I`m sorry but I`m at my job (nightshift again) and can`t talk more about it so I have to make it short again.

@meng: Thanks for your explanation, I will answer today evening, because now I have to hurry up doing my job here at work. Work sucks Talk to you soon

Edit: Sorry, I forgot one case:
If both, man and woman are balanced in Yin/Yang we would have this wonderful case of to give and take by changing and both can exchange their roles like they want. So: One moment the man follows the woman, next moment the woman follows the man.

Best wishes Yvonne

 

[meng]

If both, man and woman are balanced in Yin/Yang we would have this wonderful case of to give and take

Within and without. I believe so many times the answer sought without lies within. Even when it answers an outward question well, it's worth considering ones inner condition too.

But matching successful couples is to match task with talent and equal sharing of responsibilities, rewards, and sacrifices. I like what LiSe about the family/37 being about economics; everyone doing their part of the giving, so that what is received endures and benefits all.