Memorizing the I Ching: 32 Heng / Duration

frank_r · Sep 15, 2007

charly said:
Frank:

Maybe it's my mistake, but in my handnotes I read:

... it is possible for him to control his inner strenght and so to get excess...

Isn't it what the guy you speak of wants?

I had a look again and it is to avoid exces. In the German version it says: ...Alein da es die Zeit der Dauer ist, gelingt es, die innere kraft zu beherrschen, so dass jedes Zuviel vermieden wird und so der Nalass zur Reue schwindet.

The second line is the only line of 32 with a overall positive text.
It's also the governing ruler of the hexagram.
It's a yang line on a yin position So it also knows how to handle, by letting go if it is necessary.

When you look at the Bao Ti techniique(http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4122&page=4 )
Then there is the trigram heaven controled by earth and trigram water by lake.
So metal (trigram heaven and lake), the deeper feelings are controled by earth and water. So in this proces of Duration there is a control of the deeper yang feelings.

32 is also the beginning(Yang) of the second canon. The yin more human part of the Yi. What we learned in the first part we can show in our behavings as a human in the second.

getojack · Sep 15, 2007

lightofreason said:
If you do not correct corruptions then one is as corrupt as the corruption one fails to correct.

Chris.

You're right, Chris. That's why I just reported your post as harassment.

Trojina · Sep 15, 2007

Thats a pretty good tongue twister you just quoted there let me see " if you do not correct corruptions then one is as corrupt as the corruption one fails to correct - if you not correct corruptions then one is as corrupt as the corruptions one fails to correct - you do not corrupt corrections one is as correction corrupt as correct corrupt connect correct connecton corruption

uch:

luz · Sep 15, 2007

stop disguising your opinions with humor, Trojan! :rofl:

Trojina · Sep 15, 2007

well I dunno Lightangel sometimes i don't even know what my opinions are - infact sometimes i can be guilty of 32.3 in no small measure

charly · Sep 16, 2007

frank_r said:
The second line is the only line of 32 with a overall positive text.
It's also the governing ruler of the hexagram.
...in this proces of Duration there is a control of the deeper yang feelings...

Tanks, Frank:

I'm affraid that I have no background for extracting conclusions from the analysis of lines and positions although I know it is a respectable and ancient tradition. I have to trust you.

I seek for meanings reading the text and I wonder why being the Wen Wang text so positive, the lines are so negative.

I read heng not as a quality but as an activity such as «seeking for duration» of which the control of the deeper yang feelings is an aspect.

yours,

Charly

frank_r · Sep 16, 2007

32.3

Nine in the third place means;
He wo does not give duration to his character
Meets with disgrace.
Persistent humuliation.

If a man remains at the mercy of moods of hope or fear aroused by the outer world, he loses his inner consistency of character.
Such inconsistency invariably leads to distressing experiences.
These humiliations often come from an unforeseen quarter.
Such experiences are not merely effects produced by the external world, but logical consequences evoked by his own nature.

Wilhelm

Nigel Richmond is saying about this line.

Losing himself in the world,
he branches out by proliferating outer activities.
By doing this he will see less and less.

rosada · Sep 16, 2007

Continuing with Wilhelm,

Nine in the third place:

a) He who does not give duration to his character
Meets with disgrace.
Persistent humiliation.

b)"He who does not give duration to his character"
meets with no toleration.

The line is at the point of transition from the lower to the upper trigram, hence excited and superficial. In the forward direction, it has not yet entered into the movement of the trigram Chen; in the backward direction, it has already passed beyond the gentleness of Sun (because it is a strong line in a strong place). Therefore it does not come to rest anywhere.

rosada · Sep 16, 2007

Just mulling over what DURATION is all about. So far it seems to be Take It Slow.

Reviewing Wilhelm:

32.1 Wanting too much immediately at the outset. The line seeks to penetrate too hastily and too deeply.

32.2 Remorse diappears for the nine in the second place because it is permanently central... there is no danger of overstepping the limits of moderation, and thus no occasion for remorse.

32.3 He who does not give duration to his character meets with no toleration. The line..is excited and superficial. In the forward direction, it has not yet entered into the movement of the Chen trigram; in the backward direction, it has already passed beyond the gentleness of the Sun (because it is a strong line in a strong place). Therefore it does not come to rest anywhere.

So! We have a weak line in a strong position trying to do too much too soon, then a strong line in a weak place doing well because it's strong enough that it can control itself, and then a strong line in a strong position that meets with total disgrace from trying to go too far too fast.

laylab · Sep 16, 2007

32.3
To me this is saying that a person who lives as possessed by his ego will fall victim mood swings and flucuations..unable to find stability because he becomes reactive to external stimuli.

The alternative would be to weaken the ego and act from a centered place of inner wisdom, what the Native Americans called The Great Man Within. This kind of person meets with tolerance and understanding because he does not need to manipulate or control external circumstances.

unsubscribed_cm · Sep 16, 2007

Chris Lofting,

I've tried to understand you methods in effort to discover how the Yijing works, but I have not yet understood it.

It's a whole lot easier for me to throw coins. And is hard for me to put so much time into learning a new very complicated method of doing somthing that already works so very well.

What benifit is there for the layman in learning your method?

I would like to understand how Yi and it's Divination works the way it does. If I studied XOR and your writings would I understand that?

I can understand you trying to create an AI from this sort of "Neural Network", and I think the idea is genious and hope you persevere, because it's probably going to work someday and I really hope it does. But I also suggest you get some help from some other freaks out there.

But why should some mundane person learn the XOR methods?
And is there a easier way to learn them? Becuase from what I've seen of your writtings it seems very time consuming and non-intuitive.

Perhaps you need somone to understand this stuff and then translate it for you into normal english for the multitudes. As the Yi is now, the rest of us sit very well and comfortable. Your method will always be very much a obscure minoirty untill it is made more simple or more clear for those who don't think in binary.

Anyhow somone do line 4 so I can write about line 5

rosada · Sep 16, 2007

Dear Cylotronmajesty,
This thread is for helping each other in memorising hexagram 32. Did your post help this thread do that? Did it "give duration to his character"? Well, maybe, if we look at it as being a perfect example of a 32.3. Now please, go post your messages for Chris on the thread provided for them over at Open Space.

laylab · Sep 16, 2007

Can we sum it up by saying a 32.3 person is a "know-it-all"? Or ego-maniac?

rosada · Sep 16, 2007

Hmmm..I think of the line as indicating strong energy that is out of place. That's why I was saying the above post was an example of 32.3 because the poster had strong feelings, but they were out of place being posted here - they belong over on the Open Space thread. Only they really weren't out of place here because they are a perfect example of 32.3!

frank_r · Sep 17, 2007

32.4

Nine in the fourth place means:
No game in the field.

If we are in pursuit of game and want to get a shot at a quarry, we must set about it in the right way. A man who persists in stalking game in a place where there is none may wait forever without finding any. Persistence in search is not enough. What is not sought in the right way is not found.

Wilhelm

Trojina · Sep 17, 2007

Going back to 32.3 for a moment I'm suprised at the views on it here - Layla says megalomaniac, lol and Rosada says energy out of place. Hmm I always thought it was a a pretty straight admonition for being inconsistent, backtracking on good intentions etc
Karcher says "you are betraying your own promise...surely you can do better than this "

harsh eh still isn't it advise to stand firm in action or conviction, a little like 57.1 ?

rosada · Sep 17, 2007

Still with 32.3..I was trying to find the hexagram index to see if we had an example of an actual question that was answered by 32.3, but with this new format I've gotten confused and can't find it. I note 32.3 is kinda similar to 32.1, only in 32.1 the energies are too new, too weak to cause a whole lot of uproar. Like someone new on the job who tries to take charge but everyone can just ignor him. Then we have 32.2 which is about being centered. And then we have 32.3 which is sort of the other side of what we're trying to be centered in. only this time the energies are a lot stronger than they were in 32.1 so if the person here were trying to take charge there would really be difficulties. So yeah, laylab, I can see where you get the idea of inflated ego with 32.3. (I missed your post #70 previously) Interesting that Wilhelm notes this line has a lot of backwards and forwards unstable feeling to it and here we are doing that dance. Not quite done with 32.3, not quite ready for 32.4.

If 32 is indeed the Marrage hexagram, what would lines 32.3 and 32.4 be about? I mean, I can see 32.1 as being advice to get to know the person before you commit and 32.2 as the actual marrage, but what's 32.3? Is this the person now saying, "OMG, what have I gotten myself into and how can I get out?"

(I'm up in the middle of the night with the lights off, trojan. I'll check out 57.1 when hubby wakes up

frank_r · Sep 17, 2007

trojan said:
Going back to 32.3 for a moment I'm suprised at the views on it here - Layla says megalomaniac, lol and Rosada says energy out of place. Hmm I always thought it was a a pretty straight admonition for being inconsistent, backtracking on good intentions etc
Karcher says "you are betraying your own promise...surely you can do better than this " harsh eh still isn't it advise to stand firm in action or conviction, a little like 57.1 ?

For me the third line of 32 has a lot more ambition than the first of 57 and althought it's a yang line so he feels at home, and he has a connection with the 6th he doesn't get support of the second the most important one of 32.
So in the long term his feeling of freedom will be impaired.
And the first line of 57 is still part of the community and has more a way of trying to fit in. But doesn't know how to do.

Trojina · Sep 17, 2007

Ooh I don't get your take on the lines Rosada at least they are unfamiliar to me. In line 1 i don't see the enrgy as weak, more like too much force trying to get closure/permanence too soon. Perhaps you mean the same thing from another angle - the energy is too weak to get closure - though rather than weak energy i think ofin it terms of timing - . As for 32.3 in marriage - it shouts out straying from your marriage, not being faithful .

BTW I found the hexagram index twice, the second time added it to my favourites list knowing i would not find it again - whoever invented the hexagram index deserves a medal, a fantastic idea - if you can find it - also this may be irrelevant but i think its strange that some hexagrams have pages and pages of threads, hex 19 for example, and some have only very few , I wonder why that is ? Must be something mathematical about the laws of distribution, yet does seem people ask way more about certain hexagrams than others. I think 32 didn't have many entries - of course the obvious reason may be is people just find some hexagrams much easier to get a handle on than others -

I just searched again can't find it

Trojina · Sep 17, 2007

frank_r said:
For me the third line of 32 has a lot more ambition than the first of 57 and althought it's a yang line so he feels at home, and he has a connection with the 6th he doesn't get support of the second the most important one of 32.
So in the long term his feeling of freedom will be impaired.
And the first line of 57 is still part of the community and has more a way of trying to fit in. But doesn't know how to do.

thanks Frank I 'll have to think about that - I'm not sure where you see ambition in 32.3 and why is 57.1 to do with being part of the community ? I didn't know it was about inclusion/exclusion - just someone vaccillating, needing to make a clear decsion.

frank_r · Sep 17, 2007

trojan said:
thanks Frank I 'll have to think about that - I'm not sure where you see ambition in 32.3 and why is 57.1 to do with being part of the community ? I didn't know it was about inclusion/exclusion - just someone vaccillating, needing to make a clear decsion.

Hello trojan,

what I mean is that the first line is the line of the people, when you start throwing all 64 hexagrams are possible. it's the line outside time because everybody, all people belong to the community. So all first lines belong to the community, the people, also the first one of 57. It's also the line under influence of 24 the beginning.

And all third lines are Man lines but also yang. So they are the most ambitious of all the lines. The third line is also under the influence of 15, modesty.

other ones I know:
first line - unconciousness
second line - censor
third line - ego
fourth line - morality
fifth - superego
six line -spirituality

And LiSe has other ones http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/structures/index.html

getojack · Sep 17, 2007

Trojan, if you're still looking for the Hexagram Search function, it's here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/hexsearch.php

I found it by clicking the link to "Sitemap and Search" at the bottom of any page... then scrolling about halfway down the sitemap there's a link for Hexagram Search under the heading "Talk". Don't know if there's an easier way to find it or not.

And the hexagram search results for 32.3 are here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/hexresults.php?nr=32&lines=0001000

Trojina · Sep 17, 2007

Thanks Jack

Thanks Frank I'll mull that over

charly · Sep 17, 2007

Nine in the fourth place means:
No game in the field.
... A man who persists in stalking game in a place where there is none may wait forever without finding any...
Wilhelm

Rosada:

I'm affraid that I misunderstood the nature of this place. I have read in another thread that you post:

... I created The Memorizing the I Ching Threads to facilitate memorising the Wilhelm translation of the I Ching. If people want to post the insights they have gained from other versions that's fine, but the purpose of these threads is not to debate the ancient Chinese texts or your own...

I'm one of the guys that post about chinese text. I had not realized that the goal of this thread is to memorize the Wilhelm/Baynes version.

I believe that you don't want to mean to learn it by repetition but to make memorable the hexagrams, the lines and the commentaries by linking it with our own experience.

After more than 30 years of experience with the I Ching I learnt that in the real life, the context of the query and the feelings of the subject sometimes granted meanings close to the W/B rendering and commentaries but another times granted meanings far from it.

Many times the experience was more memorable than the book. Another times the experience of the reading was memorable, when the reading was active, when questioned the text, whe expanded the text. When the reading was a dramatic experience, the hexagram was memorable.

Some stimulating thing is to listen to another bells, to consult another versions, why not to go to the «originals» in the messure of the possible?

I'm waiting for you to tellme if it is the propper place for continue posting about non-W/B points of view or, maybe, to match closer the chinese text whit the W/B rendering. I believe that it could contribute with some contrast to enhance the reading. Or if you think better I move to another place.

Thanks for your attention.

Charly:bows:

getojack · Sep 18, 2007

Hi Charly,

The nature of forums is that threads are always evolving... so while it may have been Rosada's original intent to memorize the W/B version, she has periodically posted throughout this series of threads that other viewpoints and translations are encouraged. I started posting the Chinese characters back a few hexagrams but gave up on it because I simply don't have the time to post them for every line. IOW, just post the freaking Chinese already, Charly...

Sparhawk · Sep 18, 2007

Hola Charly,

I agree with el amigo "Getojack" (what the heck is a 'getojack' anyway?? together with the meaning of life, is one of the big mysteries of the universe...)

No, really, that may have been the original intent of the whole series but I for one like to see Chinese texts discussed here and have done so. As GJack says, the threads are always evolving. So..., "post the freaking Chinese already, Charly"!!

Un abrazo,

frank_r · Sep 18, 2007

Yes Charly,

How more information, how better this thread will be. So please give your comments.

best wishes Frank

getojack · Sep 18, 2007

32.1.2.3.4 > 24

32.1.2.3.4: Heng

Hexagram Statement
恆亨。旡咎。利貞。利有攸往。
heng2 heng1 wu2 jiu4 li4 zhen1 li4 you3 you1 wang3

Six at the beginning
初六浚恆貞凶。旡攸利。
chu1 liu4 jun4 heng2 zhen1 xiong1 wu2 you1 li4

Nine in the second
九二悔亡。
jiu3 er4 hui3 wang2

Nine in the third
九三不恆其德。或承之羞。貞吝。
jiu3 san1 bu4 heng2 qi2 de2 huo4 cheng2 zhi1 xiu1 zhen1 lin4

Nine in the fourth
九四田旡禽。
jiu3 si4 tian2 wu2 qin2

24: Fu

Hexagram Statement
復亨。出入旡疾。朋來旡咎。反復其道。七日來復。利有攸往。
fu4 heng1 chu1 ru4 wu2 ji2 peng2 lai2 wu2 jiu4 fan3 fu4 qi2 dao4 qi1 ri4 lai2 fu4 li4 you3 you1 wang3

==================

So what is 32.1.2.3.4 > 24 saying anyway? Any comments or ideas? Thanks.

getojack · Sep 18, 2007

Something from the YiLin, perhaps?...

32 > 24

阿衡服箱，
Mr. Heng Fu's chest of drawers,

太乙載行。
Another big load to go.

迯時歷舍，
Flee the time of past abodes,

所求吉昌。
Seek the place that's lucky and bright.

...or something to that effect.

rosada · Sep 18, 2007

I'm jumping back to what trojan was saying for a moment.
Actually, trojan, I think your seeing a similarity between 57.1 and 32.3 makes a lot of sence. 57 is made up of the SUN trigram doubled and 32.3 is the top line of the SUN trigram. Both have to do with uncertainty and perseverance. Maybe what we're seeing here is an accumulation, a progression of experience. In 32.3 the seeker realizes they are uncertain how to progress and it's scary and an embarassment to be so uncertain just after jumping in and making all those commitments to DURATION. So when the seeker comes upon the trigram again in 57.1 he knows to be reeeal careful before making any promises. (I don't know if any I Ching authority would agree with this, but hey, it could be a memory help

)

Memorizing the I Ching: 32 Heng / Duration

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