Memorizing the I Ching: 32 Heng / Duration

[Trojina]

Rosada if you feel this flagging a bit we could always have a little break at some time - that occured to me at 31 cos 31 seemed slow, - and apparently 32 isn't about things always staying the same but adapting, making changes so that things can continue, or so that what is important can continue. We are half way through aren't we so that seems a natural break point if one was needed. Just a thought if you were feeling tired the forum might allow you some time off from duties on this thread but of course you'd have to apply to Hilary for holiday leave

 

[charly]

Oh I'm not upset, I just didn't understand you! How kind of you to say you enjoy my insights. I like your expression, "other bells to hear." Definitely!

Rosada:

Don't worry, sometimes I don't understand myself. Then I cast my coins or go to sleep. Sometimes my coins commands me «better stay at your bed». Nobody's perfect. If I have to decide I firsth listen to my heart.

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

Dear trojan,
Thanks for having the nerve to say out loud what I have been considering silently to myself. Interesting that the sence of Life Force here has fallen off with 31 and 32. Is this a sign I should be Wooing someone else to take over being moderator now? Maybe we should take turns and a different person be at the helm each hexagram. I'm hesitant to just stop, expecially cause Duration maybe coming just at this moment because the Universe knows this is the point where one feels like stopping and the message is, "Don't Stop, Adapt!" So maybe having each of us take a turn would be a way of adapting. I do think that when one is the Captain you do tend to get more out of it than anyone else. At least, I think my ability to understand and remember has been greatly enhanced by this exercise and I think others should get a chance to experience the I Ching this way if they care to.
So! Anyone willing to take over for the rest of 32. please demonstrate your willingness by posting line 32.1 for us. If no one steps up to the plate within the next 24 hours I will continue, but Retreat is coming...

 

[frank_r]

Frank:

Something to do with crossing the stream between life and death? Maybe about people who can cross ever returning? Getting inmortality by giving birth or by giving knowledge?

I believe that H.32 is about seeking for endurance and getting it. Not all YANG but also YIN.

In the character «Fu» used in 32.5 I don't see a wife but a wise woman. The woman is kneeling not in submission to the man, but in the ancient position of birth giving. The broom isn't that, I belive it's a dynastical emblem meaning «passig the power from generation to generation». For women, of course.

Do you agree?

Yours,

Charly

Hallo Charly,

For me undurance has a yang outcome, but the energy comes from the inside the drive is yin. When you look to the trigrams thunder and wind they are wood, and the nucleur trigrams are metal. That's the horizontale line when you have earth as the centre.
So it's a earthly movement. The line where things start- wood and things end- metal.

So here in 32 something is starting from the outside and ending- in the inside. It's like the sun is coming up in the east and going down in the west.

In the Can Tong Qi is a part about the Hun(wood) and Po (metal)

The Yang spirit of the Sun is the Hun,
The Yin spirit of the moon is the Po;
The Hun and Po come together.
And they join together for building a new home

So what you are saying about the kneeling woman, that's she kneels for the passing thru life from one generation to the other, is a beautifull metaphor for passing yin through with a yang outcome.

ps Rosada, I understand that it's quit a job to keep this project running. I really apreciated it that you started it and already have put so much work in it. I already learned a lot from it. Mayby we can have a look who is still enthousiastic and also want to do some work.
Mayby we can rotate doing one hexagram and then pass it on to the next.
Somebody else has some idea's?

 

[getojack]

Considering that 32.1 seems to be warning against jumping into duration too hastily, maybe we could just take it a step at a time... and one line at a time. And maybe duration will come over time. Because, as Wilhelm says...

THE LINES

Six at the beginning means:

Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently.

Nothing that would further.

Whatever endures can be created only gradually by long-continued work and careful reflection. In the same sense Lao-tse says: "If we wish to compress something, we must first let it fully expand." He who demands too much at once is acting precipitately, and because he attempts too much, he ends by succeeding in nothing.

 

[rosada]

Oh, bless you getojack!

It occured to me as I was considering the words "Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently," that perhaps not everyone reading onlineclarity today knows the history of this thread. The idea came from a previous thread we had going two years ago. I reread it just now and it still brings a smile. Anyone caring for a little peek at the past might enjoy checking the Hexegram Index, any hexagram, for "The I Ching on the I Ching."

 

[lightofreason]

32.1 is under the influence of characteristics of 24-ness and so covers issues of beginning, and/or repeating, what the hexagram keeps coming back to; here described by 34.

Thus 011100 -> 111100 reflects the 24-ness of 011100 and so a mapping to 34 and its sense of being invigorated. Thus the 'beginning' of 32 is described by analogy to 34 where the beginning of commitment is in something/someone motivating/invigorating someone/something.

Given the assignment of a hexagram to the line 1 position, so it should be possible to identify the 'purpose' of that hexagram, its 'ending' as such (be it mature or premature) and so the purpose associated with the line. The ending of 34, its 63-ness, is described by analogy to:

111100 (34 - line 1 24-ness)
101010 (63 - ending of 34 (63-ness))
-------- XOR
010110 (47)

Thus the beginning of 32, described by analogy to 34, will 'end' when someone/something is 'encapsulated' and so, in the context of 32, turned into a person 'commited' (note this also covers false enclosure as in forcably enclosed rather than willingly enclosed in that hex 47 covers both meanings).

Thus we can map out the development of a LINE or combination of, just as we can map out that of a hexagram.

Chris.

 

[getojack]

Quoting Wilhelm:

... In the same sense Lao-tse says: "If we wish to compress something, we must first let it fully expand." ...

Tao Te Ching, Chapter 36 (Stephen Mitchell translation)...

If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.

The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.

 

[charly]

...It occured to me as I was considering the words "Seeking duration too hastily brings misfortune persistently," that perhaps not everyone reading onlineclarity today knows the history of this thread. The idea came from a previous thread we had going two years ago. I reread it just now and it still brings a smile...

Rosada:

Matching the chinese text with W/B version:

浚jun4 too hastily
恆heng2 seeking duration
貞zhen1 persistent
凶xiong1 misfortune
无wu2 攸 you1 nothing that would.
利li4 further

W/B fits pretty good to the original but as 浚 could mean «to dredge / to deepen» the advise also could be don't scrape too deep, don't put yourself in profundities or you'll lose what you seek without remedy.

I don't find the old thread, what's the idea that makes you smile?

About H.32 in general, have you read Waley? He thiks that «heng was a rite performed at the 1sth. appearance of the of the new moon and directed towards making a favourable condition of affairs last all through the lunar month»

In the page of Steve Marshall there is the entire Waley's article at:

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/waley.pdf .

The two pages about H.32 are in:

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scans/waley136.jpg

and

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scans/waley137.jpg

Maybe a rite performed making a not too deep hole in the earth. If one goes too deep the rite has no effect?


Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

I brought the "I Ching on the I Ching" thread back to life so folks could look at it again if they like. As of this evening it is about 7 threads down when you look at the Exploring Divination table of contents.
Haven't yet checked out the links you suggest Charly, will do...

As 32 is the hexagram associated with marrage, 32.1 seems to be cautioning against marrying too quickly. In English we have an expression, "Marry in haste, repent at leisure."

 

[rosada]

Auugh! Just checked out the links Charly posted. They make me dispair of ever understanding anything.....

 

[lightofreason]

Auugh! Just checked out the links Charly posted. They make me dispair of ever understanding anything.....

you can ignore ALL of that stuff - it adds nothing to appreciating what you are dealing with in that it is overly specialist and un-necessary to comprehend what is being covered.

You do not need to understand one iota of Chinese to understand the I Ching since the SYMBOLISMS stand INDEPENDENT of the chinese text. The traditional Chinese material comes out of a time of ignorance as to what is going on in the derivation of meaning - and so a 10th century BC mindset where the lack of understanding 'in here' led to trying to describe what was felt by making analogies to local history/legend/myth and so customising feelings into "the ancient Chinese Book of Changes"

As the IDM material shows, we can get better insight into what is going on with the symbolisms by extending considerations into what the neurology does to derive meaning and so we cover the full spectrum of the "Book of Changes" rather than the partial spectrum offered in the traditional work.

Chris.

 

[rosada]

So are you saying, Chris, that those pages hold "Nothing that would further?"
That's an appropriate comment at 32.1!

Anyway, I do thank you Charly for bringing them to our attention.

 

[getojack]

Whew, I'm wiped out after posting line 1. Any takers on 32.2?

 

[frank_r]

Okay, I have a go, 32 is nice and slow. But here is line 2

Nine in the second place means;
Remorse disappears

The situation is abnormal. a man's force of character is greater than the availible material power. Thus he might be afraid of allowing himself to attemp somthing beyond his stenght.
However, since it is the time of DUATION, it is possible for him to control his inner strenght and so to avoid excess. Cause for remorse the disappears.

 

[charly]

As 32 is the hexagram associated with marrage, 32.1 seems to be cautioning against marrying too quickly. In English we have an expression, "Marry in haste, repent at leisure."

Rosada:

I believe that you'r right, if we say «mating» instead of «marrying». Marriage is something highly regulated among chineses. Maybe H.32 is speaking more about the physical aspect. Are W/B warning guys against to hurry up?

I still think that what I Ching says (I means the text) is that going too deep is counterproductive.

Yours,

Charly

 

[charly]

Auugh! Just checked out the links Charly posted. They make me dispair of ever understanding anything.....

Rosada:

Do'nt dispair, go slowly. You don't need to know chinese, Waley is very clear and not at all a deconfucianized author. You can begin with the only two pages about H.32. It's only another bell.

And you don't need to trust all what he says.

Charly

 

[charly]

... you can ignore ALL of that stuff - it adds nothing to appreciating what you are dealing with in that it is overly specialist and un-necessary to comprehend what is being covered...

Cris:

You'r in your right for recommend people what you want to recommend him.

But people knows very few things, among other, that when a guy recommend to ignore another, the firsth is working for his own interest not for people's interests.

Maybe, is my wish, that your advices motive some people to open his minds to a wide range of others' oppinions, yours among them, and, why not? mine too.

Thanks for your attention,

Charly

 

[charly]

... it is possible for him to control his inner strenght and so to avoid excess...

Frank:

Maybe it's my mistake, but in my handnotes I read:

... it is possible for him to control his inner strenght and so to get excess...

Isn't it what the guy you speak of wants?

I believe that «remorse dissapears» holds that:

1) Ever there will be remorse.
2) All pass, remorse too.
3) Don't worry about it.

Given that people is free for taking the advice or not, 32.2 don't say if the results will be lucky or not.

悔 hui3 regret, remorse
亡 wang2 to dissapear / to die

From two ominous words, one lucky phrase.

Yours,

Charly

 

[rosada]

"Remorse disappears."
I love it! If Duration is the Marrage hexagram then 32.2 is the Marrage line. "Remorse disappears" sounds just like, "And they live happily ever after!"

I see 31.1 as the time BEFORE commitment. A time of seeing things from all directions but not yet making a choice. And then things start to come into focus and the situation becomes...

32.2, the exact opposite, a time of feeling clear, centered, knowing, confident you can make a decision without going overboard.

...

charly, I think your ideas about 32.1 meaning "Take care about digging too deep," are going to be validated with 32.4. I read something about 32.4 being the partner to 32.1 and because 32.1 goes too far it over shoots the mark with 32.4 and so when we get to 32.4 there is "No game in the field." Not sure what this means but I thought it might make sence to you.

 

[lightofreason]

Your out of your depth Charly - obviously riddled with 10th century BC thinking and so stuck in the past - there is no need for Rosada or others to limit their achieve things using self-referencing of out of date, stale, corrupted, perspectives as done in the traditional IC focus.

The symbolisms of stacking lines to represent hierarchic ordering of the differentiate/intergrate dichotomy, are representations of basic brain processes out of which come classes of meaning we then instantiate through linking to local context by a label or set of (local lexicon). REGARDLESS of the nature of those labels - be they in English or Chinese or Klingon - what they REPRESENT is a CONSTANT sourced in our species-nature and NOTHING TO DO WITH ANCIENT CHINA or any other local context of our planet.

Once you understand this (but obviously you will refuse to do so since it can marginalise your own existance) the IC opens up WAY BEYOND what the LIMITED 10th century BC perspective offers. Simple.

FOr Rosada or anyone else to refine their understanding of the "Book of Changes" full spectrum they will need to step out of the traditionalist box - unfortunately a box you and other traditionalists MUST protect since your identity is so wrapped up in it! LOL!

You guys REALLY need to get out more.

Chris.

 

[lightofreason]

If you 'guys' REALLY want to get serious about line analysis then you need to recognise that the line is symbolic for a state WITHIN a hexagram and that state is described by a hexagram and the FULL XOR facilities are available to map out that line's contribution to the whole hexagram - covering from its beginning to its ending.

Thus line position 1 of hex 32 is controlled by hexagram 24 and XORing 32 with 24 gives us the expression of the essence of 24 through 32. This expression is described by analogy to:

011100 (32)
100000 (24)
-------- XOR
111100 = 34.

commitment expressed 'beginning' by characteristics described by 34 - the focus on being invigorated from the start sets off the path to becoming commited (and so we are not 'there' yet - a common theme associated with the bottom line - to understand the ENDING of this phase just XOR the line controlling hexagram with 63.

And so:

011100 (32)
100000 (24-ness of this line position)
-------- XOR
111100 (34 - expression of 24 IN 32)
101010 (63 - the 'completion' hex)
====== XOR
010110 (47 - completion of 34 applied to 32 context)

Thus we zoom-in on 34 but keep the context levels in correct order - main is 32.1 within which is operating 34 within which is operating all of the aspects of 34.

Since 34 covers line position one, what is the start and end of position one described by? analogy of 24 to 34 that gives you .... 32 as the beginning. And what about the end, the completion of 34? IT id described by 47 and coves the sense of the first step in commitment is finding something to be commited about, to be willingly enclosed.

What this brings out is the 'down side' of 32 in the form of not commitment but of being commited - and so jailed where that TOO is covered in 47.

THe FULL spectrum of 34 is availabe to contribute to the understanding of line position one of 32. THinlk about that guys - your current focus is SO limited as to be embarrassing; your seeking of some 'quick fix' tool is delusion. That said, do the work (say couple of years of reflection on the properties and methods of the I Ching and self-referencing) and you may start to 'get the idea' of what we are dealing with here.

To me, the attempts by all to focus on 10th centry BC line comments is a joke when infront of you all is depth beyond your current imagination/wildest dreams and to distract people like Rosada, who is obviously a novice with the IC but does work her butt off trying to understand it all, reflects attemtps to 'corrupt' them to be 10th century BC in thinking - and that in the 21st century AD!

Come on 'guys' you REALLY need to do better.

Chris.

 

[Tohpol]

To me, the attempts by all to focus on 10th centry BC line comments is a joke when infront of you all is depth beyond your current imagination/wildest dreams and to distract people like Rosada, who is obviously a novice with the IC but does work her butt off trying to understand it all, reflects attemtps to 'corrupt' them to be 10th century BC in thinking - and that in the 21st century AD!

Come on 'guys' you REALLY need to do better.
.

In other words, you want everyone, en masse to convert to your way of viewing the IC. It's not going to happen Chris and no amount of cajoling is going to make it happen. I understand it can be frustrating but geeze, perhaps it's you who needs to get out more? There is life beyond the XOR you know...

So, why not just keep offering your valuable knowledge and allow others to enjoy their 10 BC perspectives? They are happy there and you are happy where you are. If it annoys you that much then why not jack it in? Relax and have a martini.

Topal

 

[rosada]

In Part II Wilhelm has this to say about DURATION,

Six in the second place:
a) Remorse disappears.
b) Remorse disappears for the nine in the second place,
because it is permanently central.

A strong line in a weak place might in itself produce occasion for remorse. But since the line is strong and central and in correct relation to the six in the fifth place, there is no danger of over stepping the limits of moderation, and thus no occasion for remorse.

This is Rosada talking now:
I think it's note worthy that the reason there is no remorse is because the line does not over step the limits of moderation. I mean, it's not because it's a strong line or a weak line or a good person or a bad person, there is no remorse because it stays within the limits of moderation. So getting 32.2 for an answer would indicate - I think - that the outcome, "the marrage," will be just fine, IF the partners don't go too far out on a limb, don't promise more than they can deliver, don't dig too deeply into the hidden psychology of the situation. This fits in with Charly's ideas on 32.1 being a warning not to go too deep at the beginning. In fact, now that I'm looking at it, coming up, 32.3 looks like all hell breaks loose, so again 32.2 meaning stay clear, stay simple sounds like reeeal good advice.

 

[Trojina]

Do you take 32.2 as advice to end remorse, not to dwell in remorseful thinking

 

[rosada]

Oooh. Really timely question. Living as I do up on a mountain with little distraction it's too easy for me to get submerged in thoughts of the past and lately
I've gotten downright neurotic rehashing things that happened in the second gade.
NOT NECESSARY!
God bless you for bringing this to my attention, trojan!!!

 

[Trojina]

well i asked about an old flame last night for whom i hold much remorse and got this line and saw i commentary - i believe it was Brads where he said something along the lines of remorse shouldn't halt you in your tracks forever just as a stop sign on the road does not mean stop there forever -

 

[lightofreason]

In other words, you want everyone, en masse to convert to your way of viewing the IC. It's not going to happen Chris and no amount of cajoling is going to make it happen. I understand it can be frustrating but geeze, perhaps it's you who needs to get out more? There is life beyond the XOR you know...

MY view of the I Ching is NOT subjective, it is objective, presenting a universal and so GENERAL perspective not covered in the traditional material limitations and subjectivity - as such it is not MINE it comes out of the methodology of self-referencing a dichotomy.

Objective perspectives are scientific perspectives in that the offer the SAME perspective to each observer regardless of position. OTOH subjective perspectives only offer customised, LOCAL, perspectives.

This extends into the two forms of probabilities - classical and quantum mechanical where the latter statistics give us the same 'point of view' from all 'directions'.

The customisation of perspectives, due to the ad-hoc development etc means the emergence of subjective points of view such as the traditional IC. Furthermore the ad-hoc development means a LOT of properties of the method of self-referencing have never been delt with (e.g. XOR etc) until now through IDM.

To contiune to use traditional methods and promote such as 'the' method is an example of intellectual corruption for those into the philosophical aspects, as well as basic con artist activities exploiting the gullable (Rosada included) for those focused on 'divination'.

AS such, it is not for me to 'grow up' etc - it is for the traditionalists to do so and in doing so bring out the IC as a tool for universal usage. The problem is no one appears to have the guts to participate in this exercise, either due to the self-interest (too busy promoting themselves as IC gurus etc and so bleeding the gullable (Karcher/Marshall/Anthony/Huang etc come to immediate mind)) or unable to understand what they are dealing with or simple narcissism, how could the IC+ perspective be 'true' since THEY didnt discover it in their ruminations on the IC and they consider themselves to be 'smart'!

The issue there is they accepted the IC 'as is' and worked from there, never approaching it scientifically and asking the questions about how etc.

I find it of interest that at a time when science research is available in uncovering meaning they ignore it or even attack it! Stunning ignorance/conceit. The very foundations that have given this species its ability to communicate as we do (internet, mobiles, satellites etc etc) are attacked in favour of 'mystic' means that lack any consistancy and clarity and as such belong in the dark ages from whence they came - there is no NEED for such methods etc

Will I relax? never. This is not a subject to be treated as lightly as you seem to do. It is an issue when traditionalist promote their perspective as the only one and so corrupt the overall IC that they cannot deal with. The IC+ perspective identifies the traditional as a subset, a local customisation, of what is being delt with and so a source of historical interest in understanding and 'lite' entertainment when using magical/random methods.

The Emotional I Ching material, even in its 'prototype' mode shows us a whole new world in using the I Ching to access the unconscious on a regular basis and with consistant results. It also validates the hierarchy of awareness states in all of us and takes us way beyond magical/random methods.

Furthermore the SAME methodology applies to personality typologies and to ANY perspective derived from self-referencing, and so we enter issues covering the roots of Mathematics, dynamics of emotions, issues of purpose at collective and individual levels etc etc and all grounds in good hard facts re neurology and meaning derivation, not something out of my imagination.

We are dealing with SERIOUS stuff and the fact that so many fail to grasp that is an issue. In dealing with serious stuff it is not to be taken too lightly when newbies enter the scene, and I dont mean the 'lets toss the coins for fun' exercise sort of newbies, I mean those who really want to understand what is going on.

As such there is at times too much 'Ancient Chinese' going on in that that perspective will NEVER get you insights into the IC as is possible when we cover the full spectrum and so science involved in meaning derivation. We have moved beyond Wilhelm/Legge/Karcher etc etc in that those are specialist texts focused on ancient chinese and as such are fine but limiting in that they also contain imaginative elements taken as if proven fact and share the same space as the tooth fairy and santa claus.

Spectulation is fine until facts emerge that show the speculation to be wrong. To then continue to perpetuate that speculation despite the identification of facts is corrupt ands so in need of correction (hex 18). If you do not correct corruptions then one is as corrupt as the corruption one fails to correct.

Chris.

 

[Trojina]

Chris look on Open Space there is a thread there for you

 

[lightofreason]

32.2

011100 (32)
010000 (line position 2 control is hex 7)
-------- XOR
001100 (62 covers issues about loyalty to collective etc and so cover 7-ness expressed in 32)
101010 (63 - to find ending of the line hex and neutraliser of such (premature endings))
-------- XOR
100110 (17 - and so line position 2 ends with acquiring a belief, someone to follow)

as we can see 47 and 17 both focus on issues of goals/endings for the first two lines of 32 eliciting some sense of commitment (or being commited!)

Chris.