Open Space

Trojina · Jul 11, 2009

sparhawk said:
May I point the obvious? You/Clarity are not in 3.1 anymore... That train left the station a long time ago. Unless you start cloning yourself nobody, specially not someone like me (that's been here for what?, 8 years or so?), will start taking nudges from a third party with a different attitude as yours. I]

...

me neither

fkegan · Jul 11, 2009

trojan said:
Frank can you tell me who you are quoting in your last post, post 57 ? I looked back i can't see who said that anywhere

Ah, yes Trojan...Ask not for whom the bell tolls...

It was not a literal quote, but a comment put into a quote box as a generic abstract of all flame wars in all the threads... thus I put into post 57 this lead to my distillation of all flame quotes:

In terms of what happens in either Shared Readings or Open Space how many incidents or posts are there where the problems arise or involve other than:

[emphasis added]

I do recognize your question as most insightful to the whole situation. Thank you for your clarity.

Frank

Trojina · Jul 11, 2009

fkegan said:
Ah, yes Trojan...Ask not for whom the bell tolls...

It was not a literal quote, but a comment put into a quote box as a generic abstract of all flame wars in all the threads... thus I put into post 57 this lead to my distillation of all flame quotes: [emphasis added]

I do recognize your question as most insightful to the whole situation. Thank you for your clarity.

Frank

I see thanks. I don't think all rows are pure ego battles, i think there can be rows over ideas and principles too. Those who like to feel they are 'above all that' stand back to say 'tut tut these people really should have more self control' but often those people rarely venture an opinion anyway, easy for them, if they don't speak they won't ever encounter resistance.

This has some bearing on the issue here because I note in other moderated discussion forums where there is a strong difference with regard to ideas about something, the moderator will always have a bias and jump in to make out the one whose opinion is different to her own is being inflammatory/unreasonable and so on...this is perfectly human of course but over time it changes the nature of the place.

What I'm saying is there should be a clear difference between moderation of behaviour to other members and moderation of the views/opinions/beliefs being discussed themselves. I've not yet really come across many moderators who can do this, who can make this distinction....and if they can they usually don't know very much at all about the subject matter, hence have no opinions anyway

Getting a moderator who thinks all conflicts and disputes are an ego problem would be infact imposing this belief system automatically......All this is hypothetical of course....and getting ever more hypothetical as as the discussion continues more and more people are voting they don't want moderators at all...as predicted by Ms Know it All (moi)

I sit back and wait to be proved wrong. I await the arrival of these moderators, bring em on, throw em to the lions, whos going to support/ protect the moderators from the wrath of the punters though ? Hilary in the end, so in the end its just as much work for Hilary as if she just moderated slightly more herself...

Just kidding....sorta...but this dog trainer analogy has been floating around and those who get between fighting dogs can get bitten....unless its a really experienced trainer the dogs know and trust lol

heylise · Jul 11, 2009

Me neither. Take another moderator seriously I mean.

Been thinking a lot about all of this past days. I don't think the solution lies in more rules. Even the rules we have now are often not being followed, and for Hilary a disaster to inflict.

I think the best option is 'presence', like I feel it all the time now, and since very long. Not meaning that Hilary should be around all the time. Maybe with some pointing out to her by others of the posts where things go wrong - she cannot read everything. We don't want an overstressed supervisor, just Hilary's kind of mind who puts in a few words where needed. Gently put a brake on the one who starts running too fast or too blind. Or supporting the one who gets silenced or unjustly accused.

Most of all nothing which is not typically "Hilary", so no bossy rules, no severe punishments unless there is something really outrageous. This forum lives thanks to Hilary's spirit, so therein lies also the solution I think.

I voted for a bit more moderation, but don't agree with that anymore. If there had been an option to vote for more presence, I would have chosen that one.

Trojina · Jul 11, 2009

heylise said:
Me neither. Take another moderator seriously I mean.

Been thinking a lot about all of this past days. I don't think the solution lies in more rules. Even the rules we have now are often not being followed, and for Hilary a disaster to inflict.

I think the best option is 'presence', like I feel it all the time now, and since very long. Not meaning that Hilary should be around all the time. Maybe with some pointing out to her by others of the posts where things go wrong - she cannot read everything. We don't want an overstressed supervisor, just Hilary's kind of mind who puts in a few words where needed. Gently put a brake on the one who starts running too fast or too blind. Or supporting the one who gets silenced or unjustly accused.

Most of all nothing which is not typically "Hilary", so no bossy rules, no severe punishments unless there is something really outrageous. This forum lives thanks to Hilary's spirit, so therein lies also the solution I think.

I voted for a bit more moderation, but don't agree with that anymore. If there had been an option to vote for more presence, I would have chosen that one.

Yes, absolutely agree with all you say here, especially about the 'spirit'. I never really thought more moderation meant this team of unknown people stepping in, or i would never have voted for a bit more moderation either.

Trojina · Jul 11, 2009

anyway supposing someone was suspended for a week and they also were a paying member in Change Circle...would that mean they get a weeks refund ? Are they also suspended from Change Circle ? Are they going to pay for somewhere they can't go ? That certainly would make more work, having to issue weeks of refunds !

hattah · Jul 11, 2009

just out of curiosity

trojan said:
anyway supposing someone was suspended for a week and they also were a paying member in Change Circle...would that mean they get a weeks refund ? Are they also suspended from Change Circle ? Are they going to pay for somewhere they can't go ? That certainly would make more work, having to issue weeks of refunds !

Does Change Circle have this sort of problem? If not, why not?

What I am assuming is that Change Circle may? But not to this degree?
Assumption based on the thread in Open Space and some posts regarding posts in Change Circle possibly being "used" elsewhere.

But if not, why not? And is it anything that can be used elsewhere in Clarity to keep the peace? Or is it simply that paying customers have more respect for what their paying for?

The only way that more moderation will work IMHO is if Hilary is willing to implement the same rules as places such as tarotforum.net use. No flaming, no abuse, and all the consequences that go with rule breaking. I don't believe it is a case of that method not working here only that it may well empty the swimming pool as people are used to being allowed their say.

I had voted for more moderation also but in this case I think Clarity is at an all or nothing point. Either NO Moderation or Big Bad Rules.

:bag:

hilary · Jul 11, 2009

trojan said:
anyway supposing someone was suspended for a week and they also were a paying member in Change Circle...would that mean they get a weeks refund ? Are they also suspended from Change Circle ? Are they going to pay for somewhere they can't go ? That certainly would make more work, having to issue weeks of refunds !

I'll cross that one if I ever come to it - doubt I will, somehow. Yes, if I blocked someone's access to what they'd paid for, I'd certainly have to send them a refund for their 'time out'.

hattah said:
Does Change Circle have this sort of problem? If not, why not?

What I am assuming is that Change Circle may? But not to this degree?
Assumption based on the thread in Open Space and some posts regarding posts in Change Circle possibly being "used" elsewhere.

But if not, why not? And is it anything that can be used elsewhere in Clarity to keep the peace? Or is it simply that paying customers have more respect for what their paying for?

That's about the size of it. Part of the recent Open Space squabble did overflow briefly into the Reading Circle, but that was the first time we had anything really ugly there. When I set up Change Circle, I did promise it would be moderated and kept as a 'safe space' - but I don't think that's the main reason why it's different; I think it's because the members have invested in it and 'own' it. (People don't vandalise their own homes.)

I've discussed this before with the owner of a beautiful paid-for forum I belong to (who thinks I'm completely nuts for having a free forum). All the threads there are full of wisdom, gentleness and support (as well as creativity and challenges to rusty ideas). There are no personal attacks, ever. I've no idea what his moderation policy might be, as AFAIK he's never needed to dream of such a thing. I don't know quite how he works this magic, but I imagine it has something to do with the fact that everyone there has bought his book and pays an annual fee, and a lot also pay quite a bit to attend his classes. Everyone is basically convinced that what he's creating is a Good Thing, and they want to support it and help it succeed.

Something similar happens in Reading Circle - and I think this is a general pattern with paid forums. I've belonged to a few, and never seen flaming in any of them.

(Have I jinxed us? :bag: )

proserpine · Jul 11, 2009

I've been involved in many different types of forums and groups, and usually--some rules must stand.. my feeling always is, that there should not be many rules.

I agree very much with what Heylise has just posted too.

To continue though, like it or not, some rules or guidelines usually need to be decided upon, usually by the site owner, sometimes by vote.
Having a moderator chosen by Hilary, or one or two voted in could work--but imo and experience, would need more time than a week to get used to the role and see how others adjust.
I also don't think that voting on *everything* that is said or decided and then re-voted on is a good idea-- that would take us away from whatever reason we are here in the first place.I realize through reading here that most would not take wel to a moderator that was not Hilary herself.However, any Moderator would be working for Hilary, not taking on power for his or herself.
I agree though, that if we can be mostly agreeable with one another, we will not truly need a Moderator to be appointed.
One week, is also only enough time to begin the job, and others will likely not be too comfortable at first with him or her, or, will not even know a new moderator is in 'town' anyway at first.
A mod who can remove inflammatory posts might be necessary, but only if it comes to that.
By "come to that" I mean if there are constant arguments, and put- downs or completely inappropriate posts.
I know that some might believe that all disagreements, let alone arguments, are wrong, and some might feel that "anything goes" .
So, to decide somewhere in the middle: "everything in moderation" should be the key.
(no pun intended)

orphan · Jul 11, 2009

I've never used the Open Space, but if it is a place of attack rather than assistance, I'll continue my disuse.

hattah · Jul 11, 2009

hilary said:
(Have I jinxed us? :bag: )

lol. No I don't think so but if the all combatants are part of Change Circle and are better behaved there maybe you simply need to lock them in

:bag:
p.s. I like your outfit

emc2cme · Jul 12, 2009

Second glass of wine...

After reading a few of the postings here, I decided to have a second glass of wine. It was delicious, too. Eight pages of ideas, thoughts, passion, reason. The only thing that came to mind, is that the Yi clearly tells us that there is an inferior person and a superior person. In my mind, Hillary is acting in a superior way. That's all for now.

willowfox · Jul 12, 2009

trojan said:
anyway supposing someone was suspended for a week and they also were a paying member in Change Circle...would that mean they get a weeks refund ? Are they also suspended from Change Circle ? Are they going to pay for somewhere they can't go ? That certainly would make more work, having to issue weeks of refunds !

In England when the court suspends a person's driving license for a year or two, do the government give a refund?

If you steal something out of Tesco's, do you expect the court to reduce your fine for giving the items back?

heylise · Jul 12, 2009

willowfox said:
In England when the court suspends a person's driving license for a year or two, do the government give a refund?

heylise · Jul 12, 2009

I don't think we need any more moderators. We already got them! It is that little exclamation mark at the top of posts, the report-post button. Never knew what it was for...

And I think it's best use is for reporting that someone gets mangled. Sometimes one can post some support (thinking of what Hilary said: just one friend makes all the difference against a gang - or even against one nasty remark). Other times that is difficult, and then there is that little button...

fkegan · Jul 12, 2009

Moderation is a term with both subjective and objective meanings...

I don't know quite how he works this magic, but I imagine it has something to do with the fact that everyone there has bought his book and pays an annual fee, and a lot also pay quite a bit to attend his classes. Everyone is basically convinced that what he's creating is a Good Thing, and they want to support it and help it succeed.

Hi Hilary,
There is a local law to every place, real or virtual. I would suggest the vital difference with the paid group you cite above is that it is clearly a group gathered around a central figure. They are there to sit at his feet and are paying for the privilege. To raise a ruckus would be to violate the those fundamentals.

When even a paid space can get ugly is when folks feel they have bought their own space and thus are entitled to be heard as they wish. Much of the flames begin as someone feeling their freedom of expression or dignity of self have been violated by another. Those feelings should intensify as folks feel they paid for their soapbox. To the extent they don't happen folks are feeling they have paid for their proximity to you and thus as long as they don't feel that has been betrayed peace should reign.

The point of a free and open forum is that it is the requirement for acquiring new input both of persons and ideas. There is a clear dividing line between free space and those where one has pledged to some specific leader--in whatever way that might be. The choice point is best set where the accessibility to the Internet is maximized and where those who are seeking to spend significant funds to be part of an inner circle are clearly offered that as well.

Rather than effort at enforcing rules in general; then a more fruitful way to expend effort is in showing what it is that you offer for those willing to buy into various levels of your inner circle. Doing that appropriately is its own special talent.

In terms of police functions they tend to follow the Lao Tzu advice: 'Ruling a country is like cooking a small fish' (poem 60-- all of which is relevant here). I asked Gia-fu what that phrase meant and he said you can't ignore the fish on the fire so long that it burns, but you can't touch it so much that the it breaks apart.

It is intriguing to me that the term used in this discussion is " the need for moderation" a term in English with two meanings, one the intervention of a moderator or external control; the other simple temperance or lack of extremism by the people involved.

Perhaps a middle way (that might also be useful for other goals) would be to focus upon what you see as being moderate. With that goal, you are making a positive statement and not confronting specific misconduct. When folks are in excited rant, they react badly to whatever interferes with their venting which is best quarantined rather than punished.

Also, it is your test how you will judge and establish your various spaces. There is a special privilege to the responsibility of rulership, like being a business owner who accepts the obligations of meeting a payroll and providing for the customers and employees. It is what allows business people to find pride and Divine Grace as well as fun in their work, all the more so when times are challenging.

These eclipses are making for a time to hex7.6 time which carries with it the difficulties of the resultant of hex4. The transition to the Next (line 6) is a one-way process. Doubt is a major part of Faith; however being indecisive and thus seeking too many alternatives or inputs is already a sign of failure (cf. hex 12.5 and then line 6).

Good Luck!
Frank

Trojina · Jul 12, 2009

heylise said:
I don't think we need any more moderators. We already got them! It is that little exclamation mark at the top of posts, the report-post button. Never knew what it was for...

...

where, which button ?

hattah · Jul 12, 2009

trojan said:
where, which button ?

little triangular white button/red edges with exclamation point. upper right just above where the post is.

Trojina · Jul 12, 2009

hattah said:
little triangular white button/red edges with exclamation point. upper right just above where the post is.

ah right thankyou. still wondering what the round red or blue blob next to our names is

Trojina · Jul 12, 2009

willowfox said:
In England when the court suspends a person's driving license for a year or two, do the government give a refund?

If you steal something out of Tesco's, do you expect the court to reduce your fine for giving the items back?

There is a difference between Criminal Law and Civil law as you can see here http://www.answerbag.co.uk/q_view/348787. The cases you refer to above would come under Criminal law as they are considered crimes against society. Being rude on an internet forum is not considered a crime against society that can be dealt with by the law of the land, you know with proper policemen and judges and prisons and so on...thankfully :rofl:

I'm no expert but i think if Hilary were to decide to give no refund to those she banned from Change Circle she would be bound in Civil Law to state that in her terms and conditions when a new member joins. Not sure exactly how bound though...but say if she banned a member and they said ''hey i want a refund for a week' and she said 'no naff off' they couldn't call the police as it is not a criminal case, they would have to take her to a small claims court. It would be a civil case i guess about her not rendering services paid for, breaking her contract. If it was in her contract/terms and conditions they wouldn't be able to claim anything

See you can't compare shoplifting from Tescos to being nasty on an internet forum since the rules on a forum are not the law of the land so cannot be enforced by such.

Of course this peculiar scenario of Barrett v Trojan (or whoever) in a Civil Court

rofl

is highly unlikley to happen but if it did I would hope all members of this forum would take time off work to come and watch, it would be very funny, factions could form and rotten eggs could be thrown as we left the courtroom.....hell it may even make the national news...

hilary · Jul 12, 2009

Not worth coming - Barrett would lose. (See above re-Trojan, always right.)

Trojina · Jul 12, 2009

hattah · Jul 12, 2009

trojan said:
ah right thankyou. still wondering what the round red or blue blob next to our names is

whether you are on or offline green=on blue-off :bows:

hattah · Jul 12, 2009

trojan said:
Of course this peculiar scenario of Barrett v Trojan (or whoever) in a Civil Court rofl is highly unlikley to happen but if it did I would hope all members of this forum would take time off work to come and watch, it would be very funny, factions could form and rotten eggs could be thrown as we left the courtroom.....hell it may even make the national news...

I smell a new Reality Series.

Trojina · Jul 12, 2009

hattah said:
whether you are on or offline green=on blue-off :bows:

howcome you know all this when you only been around a month or so. For years I've been looking at these blobs wondering what they are...now i get it, its how you can see whether other people are on or off line. When i am online my blob is red, i guess thats because its me.

you must be very clever Hattah

You should stick around we need you to help with navigation

hattah · Jul 12, 2009

trojan said:
howcome you know all this when you only been around a month or so. For years I've been looking at these blobs wondering what they are...now i get it, its how you can see whether other people are on or off line. When i am online my blob is red, i guess thats because its me.

you must be very clever Hattah You should stick around we need you to help with navigation

yeah it's red because it's you . Mine is green. Must be the Guinness

nah I am a wanna-be-geek :blush:

bamboo · Jul 12, 2009

red means you have marked it so no one can tell if you are on or off...see, not so clueless all the time :rofl:

see your profile

hattah · Jul 12, 2009

bamboo said:
red means you have marked it so no one can tell if you are on or off...see, not so clueless all the timesee your profile

Ha! trojan is invisible and doesn't even know it. :rofl:

I wondered why she said 'red blob' lol :bag:

Trojina · Jul 13, 2009

Hattah we will both need your guidance soon i imagine as there looks to be some new fangled complex 'flagging' system being set up where offenders must wear a red blob all day in public or something like that...

If me and Bamboo don't get a grasp of it we may make fatal errors like flagging the wrong person..or flagging ourselves

You will guide us won't you through these new developments won't you ? :blush:

richard50 · Jul 13, 2009

I can make no comment as I do not know much about this. I just don't want to ignore what is going on.

Open Space

What would you prefer for Open Space?

Same as it is now - virtually unmoderated

Moderated so no personal 'character analysis' posts are allowed at all

Compromise: a place to discuss behaviour from elsewhere in the forums, but with no flaming allowed

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