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28.5 Twice: Older Lady and Younger Gentleman

marybluesky

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I started talking with the I Ching after listening to people talking about dating, marriage and sexual satisfaction on an application.

Among other things I asked:
How will be my marriage sexually? 28.5> 32

Sprouting in an old age, no blame, no praise. A normal sexual life? Then other elements of the answer: older lady, younger gentleman. The commentary says "how could it last?", which I doubt is implied by the main text.

After some questions I said: "But I don't want a late, sexless, dull marriage". The answer: 28.5>32 again. Sounds like it will be late but OK. (Two astrological readers, one using the tropical method and the other, the sidereal, have predicted a late marriage for me).

What do you think? Is the older/younger thing litteral ? What about "it won't last" commentary? What has 28.5 to say about my queries?

P.S: I admit that I've always had a thing for younger guys.
For some reason guys in the normal age gap span (3 to 6-7 years older) didn't pursue me nor I was interested in them. On the other hand during the last year of undergraduate program, people took me for a high school girl. Who knows? Maybe those guys thought I was a minor.
Then at 26 I was pursued by 18-20 boys. I felt much more at ease with guys born in 90s (I'm born in 89) while I couldn't relate to the ones born before 87. The greatest love of my life was some years younger than me, too.
 
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isacosmo

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Hello

In my notes, 28.5 is not literal (my questions were not that literal, like yours!). It had to do with "not doing things expecting a certain result, just doing things for things' sake".
 

Viru10

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It could be a literal line like: "you'll be with a younger partner", that's what I've seen 28.5 to mean usually. The "how could it last" commentary may not be a big issue, as the line doesn't seem to come up with a bad outcome for folks. 32 as the relating hexagram seems to be a good indicator for marriage.

I'm not sure people even use the Confucian commentary on this site at all (that's the "how could it last" part), I sort of use it but have mostly just stuck with the line itself and that works fine.

Since you got the line 2x I'd say the literal interpretation is probably right.
 

Olga Super Star

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I had the line playing literal.

I don’t agree that 3-6 years older is the normal age gap.
a guy 6 years older is just an old chap😛
Less energy, less enthusiasm
I could never ever.

A person 6 years older than me is from another generation, totally different music tv and cultural references. They would have left school when I had just started high school. 90% of people 6 years older than me do not have a degree, it wasn’t common at the time. They just went straight to work. Which makes you older than your age and sets your life on a completely different vision.

now they go up to a PhD which wasn’t common in my times, and I wouldn’t feel at the same level with someone holding a PhD, I would feel I have to catch up.
It’s important to share the same vision, lifestyle , level of education.. the wider the age gap, the most difficult It is

Late marriage: what is considered late where you live? I remember you are close to 30. Isn’t that late enough?
I don’t think you should worry about it taking place at 50. Maybe it will be next year, and it could be thought as sort of late as you are not 19!
 

Olga Super Star

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Also, this thing of men being usually older than their companions: what for? In order to dominate them? So that they have studied and lived more and they can win them psychologically as much as physically? Play the experienced in the house..

Let us break this leitmotiv and hunt for equal or slightly younger guys 😎
It will be easier to have more respect, age plays a crucial role into that: we tend to respect more who is older than us.

So I think this line is not as bad as it sounds and confirms your preferences for a younger partner!
 

marybluesky

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Olga I know what you say about the norm of older man- younger woman and agree with it. The normal was what's considered to be normal by the majority of people, not my opinion. I've even made a move on younger guys in the past and didn't give a s..t about what others thought about it.

People have different preferences, but by imposing these norms, only certain people can live as they want.

I don't think the line is bad at all. The reverse age difference in particular. My concern was being described as an older woman, which made me wonder if the marriage would function normally. I know people who married late and are still awkward in each other's company after years.

I'm 32. It's understandably late for me to get married if we consider the main reasons people get married for: to build a life, have children and make a family together. In 32 half of your youthful years are already gone.
However socially, where I live, it's not unusual to see single adults. Among my coworkers, relatives, friends, the number of singles under 40 is lager than married ones. No one asks why you haven't married. The reverse is more common.
 

Olga Super Star

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I know people who married late and are still awkward in each other's company after years.
What do you mean?
If you marry you sure will marry someone you are perfectly fine in his company 🤔
I guess when you are 25 it’s much easier to change your personal habits than when you are 40 🙄
But I wouldn’t call that awkward.
More being stuck in your own habits.

the older we get, the stucker we get 🥲

In 32 half of your youthful years are already gone.
Nooooooo, don’t even think that! You are so young.

31-37 are the best years ever as an unmarried person. I liked them a lot.
You have youth and strength yet awareness.
 

marybluesky

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By awkward I mean they don't look like partners : little eye-contact, little talking, not sitting beside each other in parties; in short, how do you behave in presence of a coworker you don't feel at ease with? This.
 

Olga Super Star

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Yes but I can't understand how you can marry a person you don't feel at ease with. Normally you marry after you've tried that person for a while.. I don't think it is a matter of age but of having picked the wrong person.

People say that the more you age, the smaller the number of available men, maybe they are right.
 

my_key

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Among other things I asked:
How will be my marriage sexually? 28.5> 32

After some questions I said: "But I don't want a late, sexless, dull marriage". The answer: 28.5>32 again.
You have asked a question specifically about the sexual side of your marriage and then expressed your concerns about having a dull marriage that happens late in life for you and which you fear will be sexless.

Yi seems to be offering insights for you now on both of your concerns with one response. The Image (28) invites you to stand alone without fear and to take a step back from your world holding your head high with nothing to feel despondent about.

So, may be, right now you have nothing to worry about regarding the sexual side of your marriage.

Hex 32 sets out your stall by standing firm and not changing your goals or what you hope for. Maintaining this perspective will keep yourself secured above your worst fears (28) and will give you best opportunity for your goals / wishes to be achieved. Your challenge is to stay out of the swamps and not become bogged down in your own fears, doubts and negative outlooks.

Your period of being unmarried cannot last forever and when it does end you will find a place of peace knowing naturally that the relationship you are entering into is no mistake and is right for you.

... or it might mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 
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BlindedFox

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How will be my marriage sexually?
28.5> 32; 28.5 is about a younger person submitting to an older person, out of respect, genuine love, sexual curiosity, mommy issues or pure ignorance. This older person, goodlooking, wealthy or both. has no real interest nor the emotional ability to have or nurture children (proyects or goals in common) with this younger person but is only seeking somebody to control, to satisfy her/his needs to feel finally empowered, which means she or he felt worthless for quite a while in life and is taking it out on somebody with real values and love for her/him. The ICHING speaks about an elderly woman, but in my humble opinion, its about a person that has so many demands, She/he will never be satisfied (32), so the person will keep looking for younger persons, who she (or he) can dominate until her (his) ego is feeling better. Then there will be a discard unless the younger person is willing to be a slave to her/him and give up on their own dreams. Of course the elderly person is in a disadvantage here, because her/his fear of death makes her unbearable, and sooner or later she/he will end up alone, with nothing to show for.1 time a mistake, 2 times a pattern, 3 times a habit. Have fun, time flies.
 

marybluesky

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@BlindedFox ,

Let's look at the line's translation:

Line 5: ‘Withered willow sprouts flowers,
Venerable wife gets an upright husband.
No blame, no praise.’
[Hilary]



I see nothing that indicates domination/submission; it clearly says no blame, no praise; so while there will be no children, no problem is indicated either.

32- the result hexagram- shows permanence and based on some authors, it is the hexagram of marriage. So I can't see why the line should say "it can't last", unless the patriarchal views that always look for a way to undermine women.
 

Yasmin

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For what it’s worth, I have experienced it as differences or perhaps imbalances which had nothing to do with age, for example: 1) a difference in maturity (one partner having a midlife crisis) 2) one Partner being « junior » in the relationship, needing support in some way from the «senior » partner (financially dependent, emotionally Co-dependent). There was no judgment because the supportive partner needed to feel needed, it worked well for both of them 3) doing something for the sake of doing it (repairing a balcony ie rejuvenating it, it didn’t add value to the property but had to be done).

So in answer to your question, you could have a satisfying relationship but in which, in some way, you or the other person takes on the role of the « senior » or supportive partner, maybe willingly and happily. Or maybe at some point it becomes a burden.
 
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BlindedFox

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@BlindedFox ,

Let's look at the line's translation:

Line 5: ‘Withered willow sprouts flowers,
Venerable wife gets an upright husband.
No blame, no praise.’
[Hilary]



I see nothing that indicates domination/submission; it clearly says no blame, no praise; so while there will be no children, no problem is indicated either.

32- the result hexagram- shows permanence and based on some authors, it is the hexagram of marriage. So I can't see why the line should say "it can't last", unless the patriarchal views that always look for a way to
 
B

BlindedFox

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28. Great exceeding-, too much force, the person, having success is riding hard on line 4, another person with personal balance. She /him relies on his balance for own balance. This person (hex44 type), even though opposed to patriarchy or any system that allows dominating masculinity, will use it to her/his advantage. It is the black point in the white flow, the king of masculinity or inflexibility is a woman/flexible mind using it to HER advantage, instead of being used, as seen in line 2. In line 5, she is venerable, she is in good shape, her rep is fine, she is still o feels still beautiful, And she gets someone who wants to please her, he is there for here. Since patriarchy means family hierarchies, and the ICHING is full of elder sons and youngest daughters, and grandmothers and so on, could mean that 28.5 is a person who knows it can´t last because, the relationship with the upright husband, it produces nothing that really grows, as cattle, families or countries. Its just her/him, getting taken cared of, having little affairs, no blame nor praise, hush hush, weekend love, nothing out the ordinary etc, essentialy free from any guilt of attaching again. and the most important thing: she/him has been and is certainly now full commited to the concept for an extend time to come (32). Imagine it over time and you will see the great exceeding or the fluctuation. Its a one way street for a reason.


" there will be no children, no problem is indicated either." (your quote)
It is no problem anymore. The person don't want that kind of attachament. What kind of attachment is she/him willing to reciprocate? Where she/him becomes inflexible, and her/his wishes come first. Balanced masculinity controlled by strong and smart feminity. Would you agree?
 

MeltingPot247

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How will be my marriage sexually?
28.5> 32; 28.5 is about a younger person submitting to an older person, out of respect, genuine love, sexual curiosity, mommy issues or pure ignorance. This older person, goodlooking, wealthy or both. has no real interest nor the emotional ability to have or nurture children (proyects or goals in common) with this younger person but is only seeking somebody to control, to satisfy her/his needs to feel finally empowered, which means she or he felt worthless for quite a while in life and is taking it out on somebody with real values and love for her/him. The ICHING speaks about an elderly woman, but in my humble opinion, its about a person that has so many demands, She/he will never be satisfied (32), so the person will keep looking for younger persons, who she (or he) can dominate until her (his) ego is feeling better. Then there will be a discard unless the younger person is willing to be a slave to her/him and give up on their own dreams. Of course the elderly person is in a disadvantage here, because her/his fear of death makes her unbearable, and sooner or later she/he will end up alone, with nothing to show for.1 time a mistake, 2 times a pattern, 3 times a habit. Have fun, time flies.

I am mainly responding to the "of course the elderly person is in a disadvantage here, because his/her fear of death makes her unbearable, and sooner or later she/he will end up alone with nothing to show for a mistake, a habit, a pattern".

Comparing it to this:

Withered willow sprouts flowers,
Venerable wife gets an upright husband.
No blame, no praise.’


I don't agree with the interpretation given by *Blindedfox* - any of it in general ... It is all too negatively geared.

When I think, speak, act and be more positive, it seems to manifest more positive outcomes for myself and others I'm involved with or correspond with, which is why I've decided to share my alternative interp with you Mary ✨

With regards to your initial inquiry - focusing on the sexual side of a prospective future marriage with whichever man you end up with of whatever age ... For me the withered willow sprouting flowers symbolizes you as someone who had given up hope, but then came back to life...

In this case - by becoming a venerable wife (someone of high esteem, well respected) with an upright husband.

No blame, no praise - peace and comfort in bed with the one you love.

Sex in a healthy relationship or marriage doesn't actually have to be hot or wild to be good - but no blame, no praise doesn't mean it won't be. It could be freaking awesome - something you get so used to having after a while, that there is no blame or praise for how long it took to get there in the first place.

Namaste xo

All the best.
 
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BlindedFox

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"I don't agree with the interpretation given by *Blindedfox* - any of it in general ... It is all too negatively geared."

Your interpretation is really sweet. Good for you, karmic points for your super kindness. Will she benefit from it? Maybe.

Patriarchy, negatively geared, intentions of undermining women, etc, must be therefore MY agenda. But you know, hexagram 28 is not a light, cute, and easygoing social attitude and 32 isn´t really a temporary, small commitment, that can be quickly dismissed, its a whole lifestyle.

43 lurking beneath, flowers sprouting, or if you want, requiring more and more adornments to keep the effects of aging away. I don't see future goals in common with the other except SEX, mostly attention seeking with no real interest for a deeper bond, are these <<incouraging>> signs? Wanting to tame the young buck, using looks or experience, sound like a lot of fun, but what happens to a young husband and his old wife? He cannot stay, 32.5 is clear as water on it.

So, to resume, Hex 28, Loneliness, Critical Mass, Sadness and Inflexibility, twice, Meltingpot247, it does not sounds super positive and it looks more like an attitude problem, pride and avoiding deeper bonds. And who cares about time? When you are venerable, an aging human female posing as divine for young males to worship, how can it go wrong? How can it be ugly or why is it that neither blame (feeling responsibility) or praise (benefit for others) are mentioned?

I am not a fan of sarcasm, but today, just for today, lets put all accountability on Patriarchy and the "negative" proyections from the stranger. Problem solved! Thank you ICHING for nothing. Good luck.
 

marybluesky

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@BlindedFox

I voiced my opinion once on your take on 28.5. Plus, there was sarcasm and no direct answer, even after I asked for I Ching references to know where the doomed aspect came from. So I wasn't eager to keep on discussing. However maybe it's not bad to mention some points now that it's going on.
----------------------------------------
What the I Ching says

(I know it has been mentioned before but I repeat it to make a distinction between what's said by the I Ching itself & what's not. This time I use Bradford's:
28.5: The withered poplar* bears flowers/ An older lady finds herself a young gentleman to marry/ No blame, no praise
The result/context hexagram is 32: 32.0, Continuity/ Fulfillment / Nothing is wrong/ Worthwhile to be persistent Worthwhile to have somewhere to go

------------------
Now the rest:

1. What's the answer to my query?
You didn't answer it directly, but from this:
This person (hex44 type), even though opposed to patriarchy or any system that allows dominating masculinity, will use it to her/his advantage.
and this:
Your interpretation is really sweet. Good for you, karmic points for your super kindness. Will she benefit from it? Maybe.
and this:
1 time a mistake, 2 times a pattern, 3 times a habit. Have fun, time flies.
and considering that it's the venerable female who is doomed in the end, it should be the picture of my marriage:
Wanting to tame the young buck, using looks or experience, sound like a lot of fun, but what happens to a young husband and his old wife? He cannot stay, 32.5 is clear as water on it.

2- Why is she called selfish?
Your words about the woman:
This older person, goodlooking, wealthy or both. has no real interest nor the emotional ability to have or nurture children (proyects or goals in common) with this younger person but is only seeking somebody to control, to satisfy her/his needs to feel finally empowered, which means she or he felt worthless for quite a while in life and is taking it out on somebody with real values and love for her/him. The ICHING speaks about an elderly woman, but in my humble opinion, its about a person that has so many demands, She/he will never be satisfied (32), so the person will keep looking for younger persons, who she (or he) can dominate until her (his) ego is feeling better. Then there will be a discard unless the younger person is willing to be a slave to her/him and give up on their own dreams. Of course the elderly person is in a disadvantage here, because her/his fear of death makes her unbearable, and sooner or later she/he will end up alone, with nothing to show for.
28. Great exceeding-, too much force, the person, having success is riding hard on line 4, another person with personal balance. She /him relies on his balance for own balance. This person (hex44 type), even though opposed to patriarchy or any system that allows dominating masculinity, will use it to her/his advantage. It is the black point in the white flow, the king of masculinity or inflexibility is a woman/flexible mind using it to HER advantage, instead of being used, as seen in line 2. In line 5, she is venerable, she is in good shape, her rep is fine, she is still o feels still beautiful, And she gets someone who wants to please her, he is there for here. Since patriarchy means family hierarchies, and the ICHING is full of elder sons and youngest daughters, and grandmothers and so on, could mean that 28.5 is a person who knows it can´t last because, the relationship with the upright husband, it produces nothing that really grows, as cattle, families or countries. Its just her/him, getting taken cared of, having little affairs, no blame nor praise, hush hush, weekend love, nothing out the ordinary etc, essentialy free from any guilt of attaching again. and the most important thing: she/him has been and is certainly now full commited to the concept for an extend time to come (32). Imagine it over time and you will see the great exceeding or the fluctuation. Its a one way street for a reason.

3 lurking beneath, flowers sprouting, or if you want, requiring more and more adornments to keep the effects of aging away. I don't see future goals in common with the other except SEX, mostly attention seeking with no real interest for a deeper bond, are these <<incouraging>> signs? Wanting to tame the young buck, using looks or experience, sound like a lot of fun, but what happens to a young husband and his old wife? He cannot stay, 32.5 is clear as water on it.

So, to resume, Hex 28, Loneliness, Critical Mass, Sadness and Inflexibility, twice, Meltingpot247, it does not sounds super positive and it looks more like an attitude problem, pride and avoiding deeper bonds. And who cares about time? When you are venerable, an aging human female posing as divine for young males to worship, how can it go wrong? How can it be ugly or why is it that neither blame (feeling responsibility) or praise (benefit for others) are mentioned?
The line presents her merely as an older woman with an upright husband, the you count all these bad characteristics for her. OK. Personal view.

But why do you repeat again and again that the old wife is selfish and wants to tame and dominate young "bucks" ? You already said it in your first post.

My guess is, because you don't like something in my query. It should be my attraction to younger guys- and of course my attention to the sacred phenomenon of sex :)

It's clearly seen here:
I don't see future goals in common with the other except SEX, mostly attention seeking with no real interest for a deeper bond, are these <<incouraging>> signs?
Such comments aren't uncommon here when a woman says she wants a hot partner or cares about sex.

3- Who is more selfish?

[DISCLAIMER: I know people have different preferences and don't intend to condemn or offense anyone. I just compare two I Ching lines in the terms of being selfish in the context of this discussion- a characteristic not attributed to any by the I Ching. Also, I write these lines in the light of BlindedFox's view of relationships between older and younger people.]

When typing my answer to your first post I wondered if the woman in 28.5 is being selfish for enjoying herself beside a younger man, then what should we call the older man in 28.2. Because using a younger person for having and raising your children when you are old is far more selfish than wanting them for sex (with consent anyway): for instance, the younger woman who is used to bear a child for the older man has to bear the responsibility of raising the child by herself because sooner or later, the man will be too old to help her (if he's not already) while having a child has been the man's whim not hers. So not only she is used for sex, she will never be able to live her own life anymore, unlike the guy in 28.5 who. if we ignore the 32's notion of marriage and accept that will leave the relationship, will be free, on his own.
Oh I just noticed that 28.2 changes to 31- "Attraction". Nothing is mentioned about permanence, unlike in 32.

But wait...
This person (hex44 type), even though opposed to patriarchy or any system that allows dominating masculinity, will use it to her/his advantage. It is the black point in the white flow, the king of masculinity or inflexibility is a woman/flexible mind using it to HER advantage, instead of being used, as seen in line 2.
Well, if you believe that the normal position for a woman is to be used and not care about her own needs/wants- to forget about "her dreams" and give away to the man's whims- then I have nothing to add. This argument won't lead to anywhere. You can keep on posting by the way.

Just a note on this:
Of course the elderly person is in a disadvantage here, because her/his fear of death makes her unbearable, and sooner or later she/he will end up alone, with nothing to show for.1 time a mistake, 2 times a pattern, 3 times a habit. Have fun, time flies.
The woman with power isn't doomed, even if she's left by the younger man. At least she doesn't need to worry about her basic needs, unlike many younger women who marry older men and bear children, then have to deal with former wives and their children, fight upon the heritage and worry about the future. Source: personal observation.
 

rosada

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It seems to me we're digging way deeper into the of 28.5 - 32 than is necessary. The question was simply about sex and 28.5 says it will be good in fact, it'll be great, like you're married to a young stud! As to Duration, well the question wasn't about the relationship, it was about the sex and so if there's any concern about the "this cannot last" warning I see this as meaning time does catch up even with young studs eventually so get it while you can!
 
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