3 ways to consult an oracle

[heylise]

There are 3 ways to consult the oracle. They are the same 3 ways for any oracle, because they hardly depend on the kind of oracle, they depend on the querent, or the question.

1) asking as a independent individual, hoping the shaman will trigger one?s creativity.

2) as an insecure child, asking to be told what to do

3) as an unrealistic scaredy-cat, wanting to know the future

Example, 3.3-63:

1) look carefully at what you are planning to do, make precautions, a strategy, get information, look at alternatives.

2) desist

3) you will get lost in a forest

LiSe

 

[candid]

You mean... you mean... (gasp)... taking responsibility?

 

[candid]

LiSe,

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. Especially the connotations. I know what you mean in general, but consider that sometimes the best perspective is as a child, but not always an insecure one. Same with wanting to know the future. Sometimes that's just asking for a little foresight, a little peek down the road or around the corner, ie: what does today look like? There is a certain awe in perceiving the forester as someone or something outside yourself; a universal eye, a bodhisattva, a god, a spiritual teacher. But after this, accepting responsibility.

What would coyote say?

 

[hilary]

Putting on my devil's advocate hat

...

Isn't the child who simply asks what to do, and does it, the most secure one?

And sometimes I think people need to get a look at the future, at where they're headed, before they can even start thinking about being creative, strategic et al. Eg - "Can this relationship ever work out? Because if there's hope, I'll throw myself into it... but if there's none, I'd rather know now than after years of futile 'creativity'."

 

[lindsay]

Yes, I agree with LiSe. In fact, I think she touches upon a couple of important points about the Yi (and any oracle) that do not come up very often in this forum.

First, the Yi is only as perceptive as the people using it. A person with a lot of mental furniture ? a good education, lots of life experience, familiarity with creative work, psychological insight into the ways of the world ? will produce a much richer and more rewarding reading than a person without these things. That is because the language of the Yi is symbolism. Whether one reads the text, the trigrams, the line structure, or any other feature of the Yi, they are all symbols requiring interpretation. A master of symbols will be a master of the Yi. That is why mathematicians, musicians, poets, artists, and religious folk are the best diviners ? they are well acquainted with thinking in symbols.

Second, the Yi speaks to people on the same level as their character. A noble person will get a noble reading; a suspicious person will find cause to suspect; a dishonest person will uncover layers of duplicity. The Yi can not make you a better person unless you already have the potential and desire for improvement. The Yi will not drag you down unless you want to go down. The Yi is everything to all people. It is a mirror of ourselves.

Third, there is no way to know the future. Anyone who says different is a charlatan. No oracle in the world can tell you what will actually happen tomorrow. Oracles can suggest lines of future development that may seem plausible. But frankly any thinking person can do the same.

I do think the Yi can offer good advice that is near universal in its application. That is because it is relentlessly centrist in its approach to problems and situations, nearly always counseling the middle way. I know of no wisdom literature that does not essentially follow the same tack. In this regard, the Yi is no better or worse than a hundred other sources of good advice.

The one positive thing the Yi can do very well is ? as LiSe says ? ?trigger one?s creativity.? It can introduce you to the unfamiliar, and reintroduce you to the obvious in a way you cannot do yourself. It is, I think, an explorer?s tool for accessing and retrieving information from the ocean of psyche. It connects us to mystery, the quality giving life its tang and relish. Most of all, it gives us hope. People who use the Yi for counsel and inspiration are saying life?s problems are worth solving. They are alive and well.

LiSe, you are such a treasure! Thank you for this posting.

 

[lindsay]

Semantic games are being played here with "children." Who says children do not have wonderful qualities we could all use: sincerity, honesty, curiosity, innocence, energy, playfulness, and so on? In Zen, "beginner's mind." But, despite their admirable qualities, children are not adults. We do not want children running the world. "Lord of the Flies." There is a time when we must put away childish things. Let children be children, but encourage adults to be mature when facing their problems and those of others - including the problems of their children.

 

[candid]

Hi Lindsay,

I agree, LiSe is certainly a treasure.

I disagree that Yi can not (ever) foresee the future. It is not a fortune teller, that I agree with, but it certainly can and does prepare us for immediate forthcoming events. Call it charlatanism, if that satisfies you, but I know from personal experience, Yi has eyes that see beyond the present.

 

[candid]

Lindsay, I see no semantic games being played here. Have you never heard the saying: And a child shall lead them? Or, suffer not the children to come to me? How about, Wu Wang, hexagram 25?

 

[candid]

The individual contains the shaman, the insecure child and the scaredy cat. Isn't one of the main reasons we consult the Yi to bring the lower up to the higher? It seems pretty limiting to reserve the oracle for only the shaman. He/she doesn't even need an oracle. He/she is the oracle.

 

[hilary]

Hatless, I agree with a lot that's been said here, too. (And I notice that LiSe didn't actually say we should only ever come from option 1

)

Possibly we don't want children running the world - but luckily for us, all we have to divine about is how we run our own lives. Children don't run their own lives... divining as a child might mean saying that we don't want to run ours, either. 17,2 or 17,3? Commentators tend to say very bad things about 17,2; Yi offers no verdict at all.

About 'mental furniture' - good point. Nowadays I find Yi helps to arrange the furniture I add. New books get hexagrams pencilled in the margins so I remember what a particular passage is about. Periodically a passage gets copied into my hexagram notes, as I've just realised what a hexagram is about.

Or another good way to furnish the understanding - divine about stories.

 

[candid]

Let?s take the worst case in LiSe?s scenario: (just playing this out in my head, hope nobody minds)

An unrealistic scaredy-cat, wanting to know the future.

Here?s the challenge: Can the unrealistic scaredy-cat receive Yi?s council, and then follow it? Everything hinges on this.

Let?s say he/she does receive it and follows it. Now the unrealistic scaredy-cat becomes the insecure child, and asks ?what do I need to doooo!!!? hwaaaa!? Along comes the independent individual, who says ?geeze, this kid needs help.? The independent individual summons the shaman, who triggers creativity in the independent individual, who tells a story to the insecure child, who then puts to rest the unrealistic scaredy-cat. (love that phrase)

 

[martin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

And I notice that LiSe didn't actually say we should only ever come from option 1<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, right! No judgment implied, we Dutch are not judgmental, y'know.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

2) as an insecure child, asking to be told what to do<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oracular language?
(divining mode on)
I guess LiSe means that one pretends to be helpless or thinks one is helpless, while one isn't, in fact. The questioner overlooks his or her resources, talents, abilities, and so on.
I think it is this kind of helplessness that the Yi sometimes addresses when it answers with hexagram 4.
(divining mode off)

 

[candid]

"And I notice that LiSe didn't actually say we should only ever come from option 1"

Correct. She didn't.

 

[lindsay]

Yes, I love the Dutch! I'm planning on being reincarnated in Holland - but not just yet, thanks.

What LiSe said and what LiSe meant are two different things. If you guys don't see a bit of judgment in her posting, I think you are being a trifle disingenuous. Anyway, LiSe - like any mature adult - can speak for herself. And will, no doubt.

Candid, about knowing the future, we do not disagree, I think. What I am saying is this: there is no oracle in the world that can tell you the future with dead certainty, so you can bet on it in advance without a flicker of doubt or without lifting a finger. An oracle is not tomorrow's newpaper today. That's all I am saying.

As usual Martin is on target. Martin, with all that intelligence and wit, why aren't you rich and famous?

Hilary, I am wondering about "divining about stories"? Does that mean you tell the Yi a story, and then see what the reaction is? "Once upon a time, there was a nice man who needed to pay his bills . . ."

 

[martin]

Dear Lindsay, how do you know that I'm not rich?
And why do you think that I'm not famous?

 

[hilary]

Nothing so sophisticated. More 'I was reading this novel/ watching this embarrassingly juvenile TV programme, and this happened. Felt like a highly significant moment to me. How would you describe it?'

 

[candid]

Lindsay, I agree with you there. And I also see your point more clearly about children, after re-reading your comments.

I'm curious too what LiSe has to say to these things. I honestly don't know whether to read judgment into her comments or not. Maybe it was more just creative impulse, which isn't always gentle. Admirable, nonetheless.

 

[hilary]

Fr'instance...

example from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, no less. (Told you it was embarrassing.)

Buffy's best friend Willow, who's a witch, is just reuniting with her lover. Her lover is shot and killed. Willow turns into a very black, superpowered witch, and goes on a revenge rampage before setting out to destroy the world. (What all the best villains do in Buffy-land.)

Buffy catches up with Willow and tries to talk her out of it, convince her of what a wonderful place the world is. Unfortunately, Buffy died at the end of the previous series and went to heaven, but was brought back to life on earth (by Willow). So she's actually very depressed and hasn't really convinced herself that the world is worth saving. Willow knows this, and laughs Buffy's best efforts to convince her to scorn.

I asked Yi about this moment, and received 56, line 4:
'Wanderer in a shelter,
Gains property and an axe.
My heart is not glad.'

 

[luz]

I might be a bit over my head here, but I think that what LiSe is talking about is the attitude one has when reading interpreting an answer.

The question might be the same, but if you have the attitude of being told what to do or your hope is to be told exactly what will happen, then your answer - in that example - will be very gloomy. If you interpret it as a mature individual, then you see the direction. You get the message, see the hope, or the need to take control in the situation.

 

[candid]

Hilary, it took a few attempts to understand the question, and a connection to the topic.

Buffy gains her life back along with her "stuff", but her heart isn't glad. Why isn't her heart glad? Because nothing has really changed. She still has to deal with the witch, Willow, and it seems futile to try and save the whole world.

What Buffy (gawd, am I really saying this?) needs to recognize is in the relating hex.19 - she is not the One in total control of the world's welfare, but is acting as teacher and protector/defender. This will give her more tolerance of the people. But she must temper this optimism, knowing neither will this last forever.

 

[heylise]

Ok, ok, I know. I did put it a bit too harsh on purpose. But not only ..
First I will answer Lindsay:
?If you guys don't see a bit of judgment in her posting, I think you are being a trifle disingenuous.?
Yeah, good observer?
?the Yi speaks to people on the same level as their character.?
This is the huge danger of using the Yi for telling you what to do. A wise person can ask what to do, but will interpret the answer according to his/her own judgment or intuition. Not taking the literal words as ?this is it?, but understanding their context, how they relate to this special question, how they should be understood in regard to the big differences in culture then and now. So he/she asks what to do, but essentially lets the answer trigger his/her own intuition.
?Encourage adults to be mature when facing their problems and those of others.? I have nothing at all against children, but when facing problems, being like a child is not the best way. If you have someone you can trust completely, then you can ask ?what shall I do?. Can you trust the Yi? As a child, I would not, because the answer will be a child?s answer.

Martin: ?I guess LiSe means that one pretends to be helpless or thinks one is helpless, while one isn't, in fact. The questioner overlooks his or her resources, talents, abilities, and so on.?
Yes. Innumerable people don?t even dare to think they can run their lives themselves. But it is the only way to live your life, every other way is second-hand. I do not mean, that it is always good to do all your way, and never listen to anyone else. If you can discern who can be trusted, then it can be very good to listen or to obey. But that trustworthiness has to accord with your own values. So the base is again your own judgment.

Hilary: ?all we have to divine about is how we run our own lives?
That was the source of my post! And with ?we? I do not mean our simple everyday rational or emotional way of running our lives, but it includes the shaman/god/intuition however you want to call it. The one who lives in all of us and in all of creation, but who is sometimes so difficult to hear.

Candid: ?..the shaman. He/she doesn't even need an oracle. He/she is the oracle.? Mm, maybe even a shaman sometimes appreciates the advice of another shaman.
?I know from personal experience, Yi has eyes that see beyond the present?.
This is the most difficult one. Yes, I have that experience too. Maybe Yi can indeed ?see the future?, but can we interpret it in a way, that we manage to see it as well? Maybe, very seldom, we can do so, with help of the Yi. But personally would not count on it to happen very often. There are people who have the ability to see beyond here and now, but not on command, not for practical questions, often not for very important ones either. I do know that these things happen, but they are so elusive, that anyone who tells me that you can simply throw a coin and open a book and there it is.. No.

LiSe

 

[lindsay]

Ooooo, Hilary, I love this idea of divining about stories! For someone like me, who only divines for himself, it offers a break from the kind of unrelenting introspection and self-absorption I can fall into with the Yi. Sometimes I flay myself so many ways with the Yi that I feel like a tray of sushi. It would be wonderful to have another line of inquiry. Thank you! I can't wait to try it.

Candid, I don't think the shaman is ever the oracle. The oracle takes possession of the shaman in trance, but the shaman does not confuse his/her own personality with that of the gods.

LiSe, great post, but I don't have time to respond. Later, I hope.

 

[heylise]

Seems like a contradiction, that I think it is not possible to ask how the future will be, but I do think there are flexibilities in 'time', of past, present and future.
I think you cannot ask for it - but sometimes a glimpse can be given to you.
I don't know exactly how that works. If I can figure it out, I will let you know. If I find it is rubbish, after a bit more thought, I will let you know too. Or maybe someone has an illuminating idea..

LiSe

 

[hilary]

Yes, Candid, I have so far corrupted your intellectual purity that you really are saying this! Ha! Buffy's problem is that earth is a let-down after heaven, and it's hard to get enthusiastic about having to 'shelter' here over again. (But the relating hexagram is 52 )

Do not search too hard for connections to the topic, they are tenuous at best. I have a whole day to think about readings instead of Word formatting, and I'm rambling.

(By the way, the world was saved in the end. I wouldn't want to worry anybody. It was saved in the following series, too.)

LiSe - yes, I agree all the way. I often try to nudge people towards option 1 instead of option 3. And I agree that Yi might talk about the future, but that today's reading is not tomorrow's newspaper. (Nice one, Lindsay.)

And yet... I think there can be a legitimate place for all 3 ways. Lindsay said we wouldn't want children to run the world... I've an idea that maybe at times we might want to give up 'running' our own lives, just to see what happens. Of course there are degrees of this - being a helpless Suzie, not good - but I do think it's possible to overdo the 'responsible adult', too.

There are a few lines about this kind of thing. 20, line 1: looking on things like a child is fine if you want to be 'small' and have no influence on your surroundings, not so good otherwise.
37,3: the wife is giggling with the children, but she's the one who's meant to hold the home together.
17,3: letting go the small child is the way to go after what you want; stick with it, stake your claim, get results.
17,2: holding to the small child, letting go the responsible adult... and no comment at all.

As for the scaredy-cat... well, the man I love loves me, and I have food and a roof. If things were different, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't be quivering up a telegraph pole with the best of them.

 

[candid]

Lindsay, if the oracle takes possession of the shaman, they become one. That's what I meant. As in 45, the central man acts as host.

LiSe, again I'll clarify what I mean be "seeing" the future. I am not talking about predicting a future outcome. I am referring to "seeing" what something looks like before entering into it.

Combining these two points, the central man becomes the shaman who ?sees? the future. This happens with or without the Yi. If the Yi isn?t there, dreams will be. If there are no dreams, a bird will tell. If there are no birds, a flea. If there are no fleas, a rock. If there are no rocks, he will know anyway because premonition will tell him. Premonition existed before yarrow stalks or any divination, and premonition existed before man. Observe the coyote. How then can you say Yi does not see the future?

 

[jte]

"Third, there is no way to know the future. Anyone who says different is a charlatan."

Gotta say, Lindsay, that's simply not true. My experiences with the Yi indicate that it can indeed predict the future, albeit as subject to one's individual interpretation. In fact, it can predict future events at an extremely fine level of detail.

I have nothing of substance to gain by saying this and a lot to lose potentially - I have a fine job at an engineering firm run by scientists and businessmen/women who just might fire me if they knew I really and truly do believe in the I Ching. I have no plans to become a fortune teller or otherwise profit from predicting other people's future. I do, however, report my own experience here hoping that others will be able to benefit.

I'll add generally on this thread that it never hurts to contemplate and cultivate a respect and appreciation for the wisdom, talents, and many other positive personal qualities that the great body of Yi-users out there may have to offer.

- Jeff

 

[candid]

Hilary, well thanks a lot. I was saving my virginity for something a bit more fun. But I guess Buffy's not so bad.

Oh yeah, 52. I was just seeing if you were awake on your day off from Word formatting. (nodnod)

 

[martin]

I once asked the Yi if and how it can predict the future and the answer was 46.
It sees the roots in the ground. Because it sees the roots it knows what the new shoots will look like when spring comes. If there are new shoots, if .. that is uncertain. It is a matter of probabilities.
But some things are quite certain.
Question: Will we have bananas this summer?
Oracle: No stupid, this is the root of an apple tree!

I think what the Yi said is that it doesn't really predict the future in the sense that is 'sees' it directly. But it looks deep into the present - deeper than we - and sees the roots of the future. Or, using other metaphors, it sees the seeds, the babies in the wombs.
In abstract speak, it taps the causal levels.

 

[kevin]

 

[candid]

Martin, I love your points and do agree. But I believe it also goes beyond natural evolutionary causality.